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Slickshot

Wurm Online: Let's Talk Money

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The financial state of Wurm Online has long been a topic of debate and discussion among players.  We've discussed premium costs, free to play models, and cosmetic items.  We've argued about multiple account functions, advertisement, and currency exchange.  Some of these discussions have devolved into verbal warfare, but one thing typically holds true no matter the direction of the conversation:  as a community most of us love Wurm and want it to thrive.

 

Some suggestions and ideas about the future of Wurm have been thoughtful and motivating, while others have been erroneous and unrealistic.  We all have different ideas with where Wurm should be heading, and the path it will take to get there.  Amidst our differences; however, one simple fact remains true:  as a community most of us love Wurm and want it to thrive.  This isn't to say that it is failing by any means, as we don't have the financial data to support such a claim, but we do want the player count to grow.

 

We have the required components for a well-rounded discussion:  an extensive group of varied people and opinions, a passion for something bigger than our individual selves, and a common end-goal.  I'm no expert, but this feels like an opportune time to put these components to good use.  I'd like to plan a discussion about what money options we see--as players--for the future player growth of Wurm.  I specify this as players because while we may be the life-blood of Wurm, we certainly aren't the creators.  Respectfully, we have no right to tell the developers what to do with the game they've designed, as it is ultimately up to them where this journey takes us.  That being said, I firmly believe we, as a whole, are well educated, well-versed, and experienced enough to create an atmosphere of positive creativity to discuss the continued evolution of something we all love.

 

The discussion I mentioned would take place on IRC, and/or possibly TeamSpeak depending on the feedback garnered in this thread.  The atmosphere of this discussion should be surrounded in maturity, friendliness, and most importantly, effective communication; which means listening to the ideas of others just as much as you'd want them to listen to yours.  I won't proclaim to be a highly intellectual individual who casts shadows, as many of you are much more educated than myself.  To that end I won't limit who can and cannot attend this discussion, as I am the superior to none of you.  Everyone is invited.  Those that attend are encouraged to offer their own ideas, listen to the suggestions of others, and respond with constructive criticism where they see fit.  If you don't have ideas of your own to share then by all means show your support for ideas that you do believe in.  I fully understand there will be drama, but I expect civility amidst any dramatic differences of opinions, and hope that we'll maintain a professional and friendly atmosphere to produce growth.  However, if there are those that only attend with malicious intent then they will be removed from the discussion to be fair to others who are serious about the topics at hand.

 

By the time we finish the discussion, and hopefully reach an encompassing consensus, we could very well have something of merit and structure.  Try not to think too much about the outcome of the discussion, but instead think of the journey getting there.  I haven't set a time and date for this discussion, as I'm awaiting feedback to this first before moving forward, but rest assured the plan is to move forward as soon as possible.  I have no idea how long this discussion will last (whether it be a couple hours, or a couple weeks), but it will last however long it is desired to continue.

 

Thank you for those who have taken the time to read this entire post, and I'm looking forward to hearing back from you.  As a quick request I ask that you DO NOT start a debate here on this thread bringing up your suggestions or ideas for the possible topics of the discussion as that is not the purpose of this thread.  Please limit your responses to support for or against having the discussion itself.  This thread was designed as a heads-up and to receive a feedback count for what to expect when planning the IRC channel, and I do not want it to devolve into a forum war.  With the proper feedback taken into consideration I'll later announce the time, date, and location (IRC/TeamSpeak) of the discussion.  Below is a list of possible topics to have in the upcoming discussion.  This list is not exhaustive.  Please do not discuss these topics in this thread, as we will discuss them at length in the future at another location and add to the list as we go:

 

  • Premium rates
  • Payment model
  • Upkeep rates
  • Multi-character accounts (subscriptions)
  • Player currency business  (silver for money)
  • Cosmetic shop
  • Shop currency exchange rate (silver to euro)

 

A few people have been confused as to the goal of this conversation, so I want to be clear:  this is not a pitch to Rolf.  This is data collection, research, and understanding of the monetary structure of the game compared to various suggestions that have been kicked around over the years.  I do not have financial data for CC, so this will not be about whether they are thriving or not.  This will exist to discuss in detail and educate ourselves on the possible benefits and deficits of suggested ideas such as F2P, cash shop, variant premium rates, etc.  I hope this has cleared up any confusion.

Edited by Slickshot
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Is it even a worthwhile discussion to be having?

Players and developers have contrasting views most likely on this subject and as such, what most suggest will likely be in their own best interest rather than the game.

 

Of course most people are going to think make it cheaper, add cosmetics, cheaper multi-accounts etc would be a good idea...

 

I think a few polls would be a better option than a debate, to show Rolf/Code Club some actual statistics on where they can make more money from the players.

It is not our place to tell CC how they should run their business.

We can however show them what we want in a clear way and let them make the decisions.

 

Something like:

"How much would you spend per week/month/year in a cosmetic/microtransaction show?"

"What would you buy from such a shop?" (Not a poll, but that would be an actual discussion for players)

"How many premium alts would you make if the pricing was reverted/lowered for additional accounts?"

"Do you think upkeep rates are too high currently?"

 

This would provide actual data rather than just people saying 'I want this, I want that'.

 

Rather than trying to run the company for them, we would provide information so they can make more informed decisions.

(I wouldn't like people telling me how to run my own company at least)

 

Edited by Jebrix
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I do believe this is a discussion worth having.  This discussion has yet to take place, so I will promise nothing of the outcome as I am not a fortune-teller, but I will say that I have every hope and intention for it to be exhaustive.  This includes in-depth ideas, mathematics, models, and polls.  The reason I am not hosting such a discussion here is that the forums are moderated.  Moderation is good, mind you, but the suggestions, ideas, thought-processes, and rationals of other players should go without tampering for such a discussion.  I intend to keep a word-for-word log of the discussion if it takes place on IRC, as well as a recording if it takes place on TeamSpeak, or both if they interchange.  An active chat flow, or comms discussion, is also much better for brainstorming than a stop-and-go format such as the forums.

 

Believe me when I say I have every intention of this discussion to be fruitful, extensive, and worthwhile.  If, by the end, Rolf is uninterested in what we've come up with, then that's his decision.  I won't speak for or against him on that matter.  I'm not concerned with that outcome until we cross that bridge, as it were.

 

Thank you for your feedback concerning the discussion itself.  Hopefully I've offered more insight to answer your questions or concerns.

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27 minutes ago, Jebrix said:

Is it even a worthwhile discussion to be having?

Players and developers have contrasting views most likely on this subject and as such, what most suggest will likely be in their own best interest rather than the game.

 

Of course most people are going to think make it cheaper, add cosmetics, cheaper multi-accounts etc would be a good idea...

 

I think a few polls would be a better option than a debate, to show Rolf/Code Club some actual statistics on where they can make more money from the players.

 

Something like:

"How much would you spend per week/month/year in a cosmetic/microtransaction show?"

"What would you buy from such a shop?" (Not a poll, but that would be an actual discussion for players)

"How many premium alts would you make if the pricing was reverted/lowered for additional accounts?"

"Do you think upkeep rates are too high currently?"

 

This would provide actual data rather than just people saying 'I want this, I want that'.

 

Rather than trying to run the company for them, we would provide information so they can make more informed decisions.

(I wouldn't like people telling me how to run my own company at least)

 

The problem with this being that what people say and what they do are so often the complete opposite. If anyone has been in a sales job, or run their own businesses, you see this constantly. Random customer: "You should give things away for free, then patrons will buy more" or "You should lower your prices, then people will buy more!" Business owner: "Great! Here's a free thing/lowered price!" Customer runs off with free things, buys nothing. Or at best, buys the same amount at the lowered price. 

 

Rolf and co need to make their own decision based on the actual results of their changes, not on people's ideas about how other people run things. This is not a crowdsourced game or a group project. Why do we have any say in how they run their financials?

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2 minutes ago, NeeNee said:

The problem with this being that what people say and what they do are so often the complete opposite. If anyone has been in a sales job, or run their own businesses, you see this constantly. Random customer: "You should give things away for free, then patrons will buy more" or "You should lower your prices, then people will buy more!" Business owner: "Great! Here's a free thing/lowered price!" Customer runs off with free things, buys nothing. Or at best, buys the same amount at the lowered price. 

 

Rolf and co need to make their own decision based on the actual results of their changes, not on people's ideas about how other people run things. This is not a crowdsourced game or a group project. Why do we have any say in how they run their financials?

We don't have a literal say at all.  The power is theirs alone.  We can; however, discuss what we'd like to see and what makes more sense to us.  It doesn't mean we'll be right or wrong or guarantee change, but feedback is often useful.  Constructive and well-thought out feedback is even more useful.  That's the overall goal here. :)  At the end of the day this could very well turn into nothing at all, but that's the beauty of having a mind and a voice--you discover things you previously did not know, and sometimes those discoveries make for great advancements.

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This again demonstrates passion, likes of which I have never seen in any other game. 

This discussion is worth having for that reason alone. If the staff and players don't see that, then they won't see anything at all. 

I won't be able to participate, but please just make sure that things stay on topic. Players tend to expect a lot, and not understand the side of business or development, budgets or intentions, and vice versa. Have open minds, for both sides. 

 

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1 minute ago, Marlon said:

This again demonstrates passion, likes of which I have never seen in any other game. 

This discussion is worth having for that reason alone. If the staff and players don't see that, then they won't see anything at all. 

I won't be able to participate, but please just make sure that things stay on topic. Players tend to expect a lot, and not understand the side of business or development, budgets or intentions, and vice versa. Have open minds, for both sides. 

 

Good to have you back on the forums mate.  Thanks for the encouragement.

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15 minutes ago, Slickshot said:

We don't have a literal say at all.  The power is theirs alone.  We can; however, discuss what we'd like to see and what makes more sense to us.  It doesn't mean we'll be right or wrong or guarantee change, but feedback is often useful.  Constructive and well-thought out feedback is even more useful.  That's the overall goal here. :)  At the end of the day this could very well turn into nothing at all, but that's the beauty of having a mind and a voice--you discover things you previously did not know, and sometimes those discoveries make for great advancements.

Read forums:) People want F2P cash shop. That means, they want the game for free, while someone else pays for them. ;) And that make sense, as customer people want things as cheap(free is ultimate goal) as possible. Currently it is just perfect time to "sell" this idea as helping CC.

 

Rolf should just put the the bank account number of Code Club here, so all the people could send cash directly to CC.. I would be surprised tho, when even one of those people, who are so "concerned" about Code Clubs financial status (noone even knows if it is bad hehe), would transfer money to help CC.

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34 minutes ago, NeeNee said:

The problem with this being that what people say and what they do are so often the complete opposite. If anyone has been in a sales job, or run their own businesses, you see this constantly. Random customer: "You should give things away for free, then patrons will buy more" or "You should lower your prices, then people will buy more!" Business owner: "Great! Here's a free thing/lowered price!" Customer runs off with free things, buys nothing. Or at best, buys the same amount at the lowered price. 

 

Rolf and co need to make their own decision based on the actual results of their changes, not on people's ideas about how other people run things. This is not a crowdsourced game or a group project. Why do we have any say in how they run their financials?

 

Sorry I think either you've misunderstood me or, more likely, I worded it poorly.

I am 100% in agreement with you... Slickshot proposed that we tell Code club how to run things.

 

My idea behind the polls was to get some sort of feedback from us, the players, that Code Club can look at to see where we stand with our wants/needs. (How many people want to be able to prem up more alts etc)

 

Of course, as you say, what people say and what they eventually do often times don't line up. (I work in sales currently and can attest to that)

I still think having a rough idea of what players in general want would be better than CC just imagining what we want however. (There will be definite trends in our responses to such polls that indicate a want for certain features/changes)

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The forums have proven to be a very diverse pool of opinions whilst also being a minute sample of the population of the game.  I won't say that the IRC discussion will dramatically change the themes present, but it will add the opportunity for others to join in the discussion that prefer to avoid the forums if possible due to the palpable drama that often arises.  Also, as I mentioned above, a chat flows and a forum does not.  You also cannot go back and edit your responses in a chat, so, in theory, it provides more reason to think through your responses as you type them, as well as showing the evolution of conversation from beginning to end.  It isn't perfect, but it feels like a good place to start.  Anyhow, I wanted to say more, but I don't want to turn this thread into a discussion about f2p models, finances and what-not.  I want this thread to remain for feedback to either have said discussion or not have it.  I believe it is worth having, and I know many others will as well, but I'm open to feedback either way. :)  Thank you!

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44 minutes ago, Slickshot said:

We don't have a literal say at all.  The power is theirs alone.  We can; however, discuss what we'd like to see and what makes more sense to us.  It doesn't mean we'll be right or wrong or guarantee change, but feedback is often useful.  Constructive and well-thought out feedback is even more useful.  That's the overall goal here. :)  At the end of the day this could very well turn into nothing at all, but that's the beauty of having a mind and a voice--you discover things you previously did not know, and sometimes those discoveries make for great advancements.

 

I just feel like it's putting our passion for Wurming in a wrong direction (eh, maybe lots of people just have a passion for doing things on the cheap, but I know a lot of us love Wurm.) To me (and maybe this is cultural or whatever), I think it's not just rude to suggest we talk about their financial model, but likely to push CodeClub into doing something drastic, like closing Wurm because of community pressure for more and more.

 

If this were a forum discussing the rates of our public utilities, I'd say yes, we should get together as a community if a company is taking advantage, but Wurm is a game, a luxury activity and a hobby (for most of us).  It is a business for CodeClub and their livelihood and we are all up in his personal business, every day, all day. It's not right. I really feel like we need to stick to asking for new horse colors and bugfixes and let Rolf decide how he wants to run things. 

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1 minute ago, NeeNee said:

 

I just feel like it's putting our passion for Wurming in a wrong direction (eh, maybe lots of people just have a passion for doing things on the cheap, but I know a lot of us love Wurm.) To me (and maybe this is cultural or whatever), I think it's not just rude to suggest we talk about their financial model, but likely to push CodeClub into doing something drastic, like closing Wurm because of community pressure for more and more.

 

If this were a forum discussing the rates of our public utilities, I'd say yes, we should get together as a community if a company is taking advantage, but Wurm is a game, a luxury activity and a hobby (for most of us).  It is a business for CodeClub and their livelihood and we are all up in his personal business, every day, all day. It's not right. I really feel like we need to stick to asking for new horse colors and bugfixes and let Rolf decide how he wants to run things. 

I completely respect what you're saying.  I had thought about emailing Rolf to ask him about the premium model for Wurm, but how incredibly awkward and rude would that be?  I mean where would one even start a message like that? lol  Instead I thought, perhaps an interested group in the community could hold a conversation instead.  Sure it doesn't mean things will change, but if anything maybe it'll help us further understand the logistics behind what everyone has been demanding.  Maybe the discussion goes south, and nothing comes from it.  Maybe it goes north, and turns out well, and Rolf is never privy to it.  Anything is possible in that regard, but the main focus is having the discussion itself among other players.  It would seem our largest problem is not what Rolf is or is not doing with the company (its his, he can do what he wants), but rather in the way we communicate.  A lot of ideas are thrown around without much research or cause-effect thrown in to make sense of it all.  Perhaps a discussion will help more of us be on the same page, and understand that we want the same things.  Maybe we'll find better, more structured, financial ideals to ask of CC.  Like any suggestions in this forum, most are not used.  Some are good, and some are bad.  We might have terrible suggestions, but if we take the opportunity to research and discuss something at length, perhaps our suggestions won't be so terrible after-all.  You never truly know until you sit down and talk with someone.  It all starts with communication.  Maybe something will happen; maybe it won't...that's the beauty of conversation.  I won't ask you to trust that I know what I'm doing, because I'm foolish in many aspects and you don't know me, but maybe trust that a conversation can be worthwhile and give it a shot?

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6 minutes ago, Slickshot said:

 I had thought about emailing Rolf to ask him about the premium model for Wurm, but how incredibly awkward and rude would that be?

 

This is exactly the same thing, except you trying to get a bunch of people together to all do it at once.

It is rude and it isn't our place to tell them how to run their business.

 

Outside of telling them what you would like to see change in the suggestions threads, just enjoy the game and let them run it.

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2 minutes ago, Jebrix said:

 

This is exactly the same thing, except you trying to get a bunch of people together to all do it at once.

It is rude and it isn't our place to tell them how to run their business.

 

Outside of telling them what you would like to see change in the suggestions threads, just enjoy the game and let them run it.

Thank you for your opinion.  I appreciate it.

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I think the game's financial model right now is very good. People can work hard and earn premium and other stuff without putting any money in game which is good. I don't think there is any need to discuss something which already satisfies so many players. Only people who do not have any other creative ideas have time to propose a discussion for something which is already fine.
Like the kind of people who don't know that hopping on the same server should be possible.

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Yet another wall of useless text, tldr applies here.

 

Do we need a new wurm is ending and sky is falling every other day?

 

Unless you are the Donald Trump of the gaming industry there is nothing you can say that would be meaningful.

 

Under Rolfs current business plan, this game will either sink or float, not much you say will make a difference.

 

 

 

Edited by JakeRivers

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Rolf hasn't said that it isn't working.  Think others just do not think it is working the way they want it to.

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7 minutes ago, Pashka said:

Rolf hasn't said that it isn't working.  Think others just do not think it is working the way they want it to.

I completely agree, which is why this will be a discussion and not an action plan or such. 

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Not sure why a discussion about finances that you can't see or have knowledge of is something that needs to happen is what I was going for.  Unless you have pulled his financials you don't even have a place to start.  Even then most people without some working knowledge won't know what the financials mean.

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+1 For positive changes, I would like to see something like this happen in all seriousness, its getting close to the point of no return for WO.

 

Also abit off topic, but after seeing a few comments about this in previous threads - not everyone is bad with finance. I see people making statements saying that we the players are not allowed to suggest change because we are not the business owner. I'm sorry but that isn't the least helpful, if you don't see any issues with WO something might be wrong with your fanboy glasses.

 

Provide advice, be helpful I think a chat like this would help set WO on a good direction. 

 

Also note that not all of us are 12 year old's nabbing there mom's credit card believe it or not.

Edited by Niki

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I think most of the people that see something wrong are talking more about an in game economy than the actual finances of Code Club.  Those are 2 completely separate things.  I do know there are many that know a great deal about finances that play this game.  That doesn't many everyone does.  I just know that you cannot control the in game economy out of game very well.  I have seen many games try including a game that brought people in to regulate market prices of say iron lump.  It didn't work very well.  And of course those games did not allow you to sell your characters, silver etc for real money.  (At least with their approval or on their websites, although everyone knows the items were sold)

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10 minutes ago, Pashka said:

I think most of the people that see something wrong are talking more about an in game economy than the actual finances of Code Club.  Those are 2 completely separate things.  I do know there are many that know a great deal about finances that play this game.  That doesn't many everyone does.  I just know that you cannot control the in game economy out of game very well.  I have seen many games try including a game that brought people in to regulate market prices of say iron lump.  It didn't work very well.  And of course those games did not allow you to sell your characters, silver etc for real money.  (At least with their approval or on their websites, although everyone knows the items were sold)

Fortunately this discussion isn't about the in-game economy.  I hope anyone reading this thread who may be on the fence about joining the discussion understand that this is not about the in-game economy.  This discussion is about the various complaints, suggestions, and concerns of aspects relating to the business model of the game itself, and not the micro-economy within.  As mentioned before the main goal of the proposed discussion is not a conglomerate pitch to Rolf on how to run CC.  That is not up to us.  This discussion will hopefully help many players understand the financial suggestions of others much better, whether those suggestions have merit or not and why (pros, cons).  By the end the idea is to have more concise ideas as to what may help the game and what may hurt it, as well as have more educated data on what diverse players want from Wurm Online.  I could be entirely wrong here, but I feel this kind of analysis and data will work better if it begins as a discussion on another platform.  Polls and the like will certainly be included if the conversation heads in a favorable direction towards that avenue.  Again, and I can't stress this enough, this is not a pitch.  It's a conversation.  Hopefully we'll be able to work together to get an idea of what the future could potentially have in store.

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2 hours ago, Pashka said:

Not sure why a discussion about finances that you can't see or have knowledge of is something that needs to happen is what I was going for.  Unless you have pulled his financials you don't even have a place to start.  Even then most people without some working knowledge won't know what the financials mean.

Exactly. Who actually knows what the Wurm books look like? Has Rolf ever told us that Wurm is in trouble and we need to help solve it? 

 

2 hours ago, Niki said:

+1 For positive changes, I would like to see something like this happen in all seriousness, its getting close to the point of no return for WO.

 

Also abit off topic, but after seeing a few comments about this in previous threads - not everyone is bad with finance. I see people making statements saying that we the players are not allowed to suggest change because we are not the business owner. I'm sorry but that isn't the least helpful, if you don't see any issues with WO something might be wrong with your fanboy glasses.

 

Provide advice, be helpful I think a chat like this would help set WO on a good direction. 

 

Also note that not all of us are 12 year old's nabbing there mom's credit card believe it or not.

Point of no return for who? WOW has been "dying" for years. Eve has been "dying" for years. My fangirl glasses are on just fine and while, yes, I would love to see another meeting with Rolf to discuss improvements to the game, what do we even know about the financial state of the game? Yes, people left. The sky is not falling. Or it is, and there's not a thing we can do. Asking CC to charge us less to play so we can make more RL money off Wurm is not the answer. 

 

 

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Just now, NeeNee said:

 

Exactly. Who actually knows what the Wurm books look like? Has Rolf ever told us that Wurm is in trouble and we need to help solve it? 

 

Point of no return for who? WOW has been "dying" for years. Eve has been "dying" for years. My fangirl glasses are on just fine and while, yes, I would love to see another meeting with Rolf to discuss improvements to the game, what do we even know about the financial state of the game? Yes, people left. The sky is not falling. Or it is, and there's not a thing we can do. Asking CC to charge us less to play so we can make more RL money off Wurm is not the answer. 

 

 

I'm glad you bring that up, because I agree it isn't the answer in that set of circumstances.  How about joining the discussion when it's scheduled?  Would love to have your point of view and opinions after ideas are kicked around and more context is given to allow for clarity. :)

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