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Retrograde

PvP changes refined

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17 minutes ago, Nappy said:

Home Server isn't Freedom. On a Home Server you can still face enemy raiders, your deed can be destroyed etc. Home servers add another element to the game somewhere between Freedom and Elevation. I think the game wouldn't be as cool without them (although I haven't yet lived on a home server myself).

with things like underwater fences/gates, cr nerf, home server pvp is greatly discouraged and avoided. The only reason to be on a enemy home server now a days is to do some missions when the scenario is favorable. I know you don't pvp much and play on epic atm but there really isnt much of any type of defending from raiders happen, most of the pvp we get from home server in the last months was by sitting 10 tiles from the starter deed. I thought the purpose of changing pvp mechanics was to promote more pvp, I like most of these changes I personally haven't said much in regards to them because I want to see how it plays out I think its finally going in the right direction, and once we get a more concrete post of final "revision" I might voice a opinion. 

Edited by Egard
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20 minutes ago, Egard said:

with things like underwater fences/gates, cr nerf, home server pvp is greatly discouraged and avoided. The only reason to be on a enemy home server now a days is to do some missions when the scenario is favorable. I know you don't pvp much and play on epic atm but there really isnt much of any type of defending from raiders happen, most of the pvp we get from home server in the last months was by sitting 10 tiles from the starter deed. I thought the purpose of changing pvp mechanics was to promote more pvp, I like most of these changes I personally haven't said much in regards to them because I want to see how it plays out I think its finally going in the right direction, and once we get a more concrete post of final "revision" I might voice a opinion. 

 

It's true. I haven't really played Epic in any way since last October/November. I do PVP a lot in WU when time permits.

 

I was on Epic about a week ago for perhaps 6 hours. There were a total of 20 players on at the time cluster wide (and only 5 on Serenity which I circle toured) which I must say was a new low point for me.

 

While this whole thread is talking about PVP I think part of it that needs to be considered carefully is the whole cultural side of things. Epic doesn't seem to be just about elevation style PVP where kingdoms fight it out heavy duty. Wasn't Epic also supposed to give enemy kingdoms the ability to raid Home Servers like Vikings of old? 

 

If this is indeed the case then it's likely that some attention needs to be put into what it would take to repopulate the Home servers with actual players who enjoy living on them otherwise that side of the PVP experience is likely to be dead and buried soon. As we take away things from Home Servers to encourage Elevation style PVP perhaps we need to think about what to put into the Home Server to encourage their regrowth as well.

Edited by Nappy
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On 3/27/2016 at 10:29 AM, Retrograde said:

True strike has been something raised and is being looked at, I havent spoken with the dev team about it yet but I feel a cooldown at the very least is in order

 

Remove this 100% crit ability on 2 handers make it 100% hit chance instead. add a cool down of a few mins 2 - 10 and leave the 100% crit on 1 handers only. 

 

This would allow those players who have this item to still hold value. This would allow some balance and diversity as to when to use it.. It will add nice extra dmg to one handers and 2 handers already hit like trucks so can be used as a finisher hit guaranteed.

Edited by MaurizioAM

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How bout you add in the removal of player gods?  

That'd be grrrreat, thanks.

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9 hours ago, Retrograde said:

This isnt a elve vs home servers argument. While there is obvious desire to make those who enter dangerous lands to complete missions to be rewarded more, We do not wish to punish those who choose to live on home servers.

 

We want to allow all kinds of playstyles, not force one or another

Well that's not at all how you sounded in team speak ;)

 

 

also: remove Valrei completely. Obviously the dev's idea of what it was meant to be is wrong. You told us in ts that you thought becoming a player God is the whole reason people played on epic and what we're all going for. When most of us couldn't give a rats ass about that broken system

Edited by Josh

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12 hours ago, Retrograde said:

Reduction of SotG and removal of archery penalties would mean using a huge axe would be quite vulnerable considering.

 

true strike and equipment timers in combat has also been raised

 

See Retro?  This is the kind of thing I'm talking about.  It is like you are keeping 90% of proposed changes hidden.  How can we comment on changes when you are keeping so much hidden (I'm talking about the last sentence btw)?  Removal of archery penalties will certainly help some non-SOTG players participate more, especially defensively.

 

I am only going to speak from a Chaos perspective.  I think though, that it hasn't really been thought out how combat actually proceeds.  Lets say you remove SOTG or nerf it or whatever.  You think people with huge axes are now more vulnerable and now everyone is going to carry sword and board.  Lets say you are correct for the sake of argument. 

 

What I think will actually happen is that champs and the king will now push to the front (yah, they do now as well, but there are also SOTG players right there with them).  They will keep their huge axes cause the SOTG nerf is meaningless to them.  They will then proceed to chop down all the non-titled, non-champ, nerted SOTG players in seconds and take no damage since those players are using sword and board.  You aren't going to get away or back out of combat in plate cause you are webbed and can't move.  You have no defense at all because now you don't have SOTG either.

 

My problem is that your proposed changes are going to make players die even faster than they do now.  That is bad!  They die fast enough already!  Players needs more defensive options, not fewer, nerfed ones.

 

How does your scenario promote more pvp?  Kingdoms will now have to wait for their champs and king to get online to pvp.  This isn't going to make everyone leave their deed and start pvping over night.

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39 minutes ago, Graymane said:

 

See Retro?  This is the kind of thing I'm talking about.  It is like you are keeping 90% of proposed changes hidden.  How can we comment on changes when you are keeping so much hidden (I'm talking about the last sentence btw)?  Removal of archery penalties will certainly help some non-SOTG players participate more, especially defensively.

No proposed changes are being hidden, but for the sake of getting the ball rolling we are working in short bursts in order to keep discussion as focused as possible.

 

The other things I mentioned is simply something that has yet to be discussed with the dev team, and thus yet to come through in another thread

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With the no karma in enemy presence I believe it's the best addition. If the defenders are promoted to travel to the deed there will be more pvp outside the defences/breaking through the lines than having 10 people karma in and attackers forced to go home. Makes war deeds with the other proposed changes harder to maintain/defend.

- Epic


It's also important to mention that my kingdom has had more deeds raided than we have raided ourselves. We've always gone in without karma on new server elevation - We aren't a raiding group so I am not biased for the attacker because I'm likely to be a defender.

Below; VD karma is to stop our raid -
 



Below ; JK [my kingdom] rides in, rallies up outside of deed local to stop a raid
 



 

Edited by Mclovin
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10 hours ago, Egard said:

with things like underwater fences/gates, cr nerf, home server pvp is greatly discouraged and avoided. The only reason to be on a enemy home server now a days is to do some missions when the scenario is favorable. I know you don't pvp much and play on epic atm but there really isnt much of any type of defending from raiders happen, most of the pvp we get from home server in the last months was by sitting 10 tiles from the starter deed. I thought the purpose of changing pvp mechanics was to promote more pvp, I like most of these changes I personally haven't said much in regards to them because I want to see how it plays out I think its finally going in the right direction, and once we get a more concrete post of final "revision" I might voice a opinion. 

cut the crap egard, there is also living people on homeservers because they simply dislike the new elevation.

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56 minutes ago, Retrograde said:

No proposed changes are being hidden, but for the sake of getting the ball rolling we are working in short bursts in order to keep discussion as focused as possible.

 

The other things I mentioned is simply something that has yet to be discussed with the dev team, and thus yet to come through in another thread

Hidden was a poor choice of words.  What I mean is there is no comprehensive roadmap of what is being proposed that we can take into consideration.

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11 hours ago, Nappy said:

Home Server isn't Freedom. On a Home Server you can still face enemy raiders, your deed can be destroyed etc. Home servers add another element to the game somewhere between Freedom and Elevation. I think the game wouldn't be as cool without them (although I haven't yet lived on a home server myself).

I'd agree that homeserver missions would be kept if homeservers could be conquered, allow enemy kingdoms to deed on homeservers, though always have the cr be in the favor of the original kingdom so that it's naturally in their favor

 

1 hour ago, Mclovin said:

With the no karma in enemy presence I believe it's the best addition. If the defenders are promoted to travel to the deed there will be more pvp outside the defences/breaking through the lines than having 10 people karma in and attackers forced to go home. Makes war deeds with the other proposed changes harder to maintain/defend.

 

this, if there's no karmaing in, there will be no more deeds on the far side of the map which you have no way of accessing without just suddenly appearing, if you can't karma then defenders and attackers have to additionally plan how to reinforce and how to cut off reinforcements and so on, additional decisions & strategies that players can use, more power to tactics & strategies rather than wallets & numbers.

 

 

2 hours ago, Oreo said:

How bout you add in the removal of player gods?  

That'd be grrrreat, thanks.

 

aaaand this, player gods was such a bad addition to the pvp aspect of the game, absolutely destroyed what balance the original gods had, back when priests had restrictions such as when fo & vyn (though vyn was a bad priest even back then so they should probably be able to archer) couldn't archer the balance was at its best, now you got combinations of bl spells and wl spells and buffs with 0 limitations except crafting etc

 

Upping the base hp & reducing sotg to 25% as you said would also be a good idea in addition with removing true strike alltogether and replacing it with something else, non-sotg players (anyone that hasn't played actively and meditated 12 times per day for 8 months)  will be less discouraged from pvp and instead of quitting like they usually do now when they get destroyed by a group of sotg in 50 sec while damaging one of them for 3% they might actually have a bigger chance.

 

 

Later down the line valrei abilities as a whole needs to be looked at too, some abilities are absolutely useless or doesn't even work currently

 

Edited by changer

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3 hours ago, Retrograde said:

No proposed changes are being hidden, but for the sake of getting the ball rolling we are working in short bursts in order to keep discussion as focused as possible.

 

The other things I mentioned is simply something that has yet to be discussed with the dev team, and thus yet to come through in another thread

 

Be nice if you could split your discussions, I have zero interest in the epic server and those changes just muddle what you are talking about doing to chaos.

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Most players agree that player gods should be removed from PvP(maybe entirely).

Just allow players a one time option to convert to a god of their choice without losing faith.

The key can be kept in game, and give out the same random abilities & title it currently does.

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1 minute ago, Brunwulf said:

Most players agree that player gods should be removed from PvP(maybe entirely).

Just allow players a one time option to convert to a god of their choice without losing faith.

The key can be kept in game, and give out the same random abilities & title it currently does.

Perhaps with a list of those who fully ascended, like a leaderboard of sorts, if you went down that route.

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For the record if I haven't already said it, I still think that increasing either the base health - or putting a little extra umph onto the DR that scales with Body Strength is the way to make up for the Gone change, probably the base health thing though. Since the whole point of things was to not alienate newer players from PvP.
You spend hours making all of your armor and gear, probably bought a weapon - you die in 10 seconds.

You can become a "strong" pvper in general terms just by achieving Gone with under-average level body, just because of the extra health pool. Of course a high body and a low body gone toon, there's a big difference, but in general.
Anyways, for this reason, I think the best course of long term action would be to create a scaling damage reduction based on your meditation level.

I'm still for removing twitter, and I'm still for removing teleporting altogether. Like I said, I don't run into other people travelling around the server to get from place to place because any active and willing player is just able to gather up a mundane amount of karma and teleport there.
Yeah, that's right. Create 8 stone slabs, slay 25 wildcats, and you don't have to travel across the chaos server because we have a deed on the other side that you can just teleport to with your entire inventory you just brought from Freedom!
Promoting PvP!

 

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1 hour ago, Brunwulf said:

Most players agree that player gods should be removed from PvP(maybe entirely).

Just allow players a one time option to convert to a god of their choice without losing faith.

The key can be kept in game, and give out the same random abilities & title it currently does.

 

Um player gods may possibly be slightly broken or unbalanced but the removal of them means we go back to even more unbalanced situation.  They dont need to be removed. They work ok in my opinion. None of them seem to have any sort of overpowering abilities over another god. They all have something to offer.

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2 hours ago, MaurizioAM said:

 

Um player gods may possibly be slightly broken or unbalanced but the removal of them means we go back to even more unbalanced situation.  They dont need to be removed. They work ok in my opinion. None of them seem to have any sort of overpowering abilities over another god. They all have something to offer.

 

Except for Fo who gives a mission to go drain Dark Citadel :ph34r:

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Okay how is this as a meditation path balance:  rank 5 of each path except insanity gets you 5% damage reduction, insanity gets 10%.   Rank 6 of each path except insanity gets 10%, insanity gets 20%.  Rank 8 of each path except insanity gets you 15% insanity gets 25%.  Rank 10 of each path except insanity gets 25%, insanity gets 35%.  Also recommend this damage reduction including SotG ONLY apply to combat against other players.  This would fill some of the empty levels in Meditation trees, put the difference between SotG and other meditation paths but NOT someone without meditation at 25% and at that point SotG probably would need a buff I would recommend a scaling progression through its ranks of increased damage as they are hurt making an Insanity player into a potential burst damage fighter at highest levels.  To illustrate at say lvl 3 1% increase, under 80% health 2%, under 60 3%, under 40 and, 4% under 20.  At rank 6 those values double and rank 10 are 3x the base so 3/6/9/12% damage increase as they are hurt.  They are still tougher than other players making it important to focus fire when targeting because otherwise you will just be leaving half injured berserkers on the field who now have their blood up and are going to do more damage.  This also makes it a tactical choice for insanity players, get heals for safety or stay in a damaged start for an attack buff.

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I have seen TOP pvp accounts without any med path taking down very good pvp accounts with sotg. Nerfing SOTG would mean the dominance of TOP PVP accounts, leaving us noobs not only without a possibility to enter pvp lands, but wit a useless meditation path as well.

ATM a 1 yearish account due to SOTG has a chance to fight a 5 years pvp account, after a nerf of SOTG I dont see any new accounts entering the PVP arena... But thats only my 5 cents...

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1 minute ago, bangzuvelis said:

I have seen TOP pvp accounts without any med path taking down very good pvp accounts with sotg. Nerfing SOTG would mean the dominance of TOP PVP accounts, leaving us noobs not only without a possibility to enter pvp lands, but wit a useless meditation path as well.

ATM a 1 yearish account due to SOTG has a chance to fight a 5 years pvp account, after a nerf of SOTG I dont see any new accounts entering the PVP arena... But thats only my 5 cents...

who ? Give me a example. 

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1 minute ago, Egard said:

who ? Give me a example. 

Daolin took down malevolence in our training fights. 

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On 26.3.2016 at 4:44 PM, Retrograde said:

no changes to mechanics will go live without the information being made available prior not just this but please compile a complete plan for this whole matter once the discussions conclude before you work on any of these changes so people know whats coming up. you dont need to tell a time on this tho. and also set a deadline once the discussions calm down with a prior announcement of it (at least 7 days prior)

Changes

  •     Remove expanded Information minister functions removal of "x enters your territory" +1
  •     Remove all teleportation forms on PvP servers (including home servers). Cooldown on exiting local of enemy players, crossing servers, disabling teleporting into enemy presence and alerted deeds +1 to cooldown, crossing servers. -1 to complete disabling of tping into enemy presence and alerted deeds. give it a time restriction on how long you have to be part of the deed instead.
  •     Remove archery penalties or scale according to individual armour pieces. +1 to removal again. or at least scale and remove every restriction of the helms.
  •     Disable embarking on vehicles or mounts while in combat with an enemy players.5 second timer to embark, disruptable +1 for passenger embarks -1 for commander embarks. reduce the embarking range by about half for horses/carts/wagons so you cant teleport 2 tiles +. but if you can manage to get the teleport in AND drive yourself out of the crisis you should be rewarded. to boats: if the commander cant embark but has to wait the 5 seconds interruptable timer too he'll just get his eyes poked out prior to this. while this might be a viable option if the disruptability is limited to stuns and people wouldnt be as squishy as they are. how many huge axe hits can a full boat get in on an enemy trying to embark as commander? well, about 4 overkills after sotg is being nerfed i guess.
  •     Addition of Archery keybinds. +1
  •     Remove stun/throw from valrei mobs.Until throwing/stun mechanics can be addressed with that addition +1 i guess, its not a matter that is ranking on top of the problems. people managed to live with them the way they are for ages.
  •     Make nolocate on bodies work similar to jewellery with power determining % blocked. Cooldowns on searching for same person.30 second cooldown when Nolocate is effective, no nolo, no cooldown +1 to change the casts to %age instead of 100% immunity, -1 to cooldowns. and remove the function that nolo casts grant complete immunity to pendulums.
  •     Creation of a “verbose” combat tab option, including extra information such as Area of Effect spells, Direct target spells,     karma and meditation buffs, etc +1
  •     Scale scenario point rewards according to mission type (sacrifice, drain, traitor, tree) then modified by whether server is friendly, enemy, or elevation (varied scenario points per part of mission, multiplied by .5, 1 or 1.5 according to server, this would mean a hard mission on a home server is still better than an easy mission on an enemy server, move timers may be adjusted accordingly) nc, not epic here
  •     Make uniques focus points of missions, or giving kingdom based rewards for slaying Neutral mission to slay x unique in x region, slaying faction receives god move reduction as if they completed a mission for said god nc not epic here, unless unique slaying missions would go live on chaos too, if the rewards are decent id +1 this tho
  •     Change battle rank to only be given through kills, not through missions or capping towers/camps +0 if people want to spend a lot of time to get their rank up little by little, well why not?
  •     Make chaos and possibly home server merchants tauntable (perhaps require killing of all guards, or a drain similar to disintegration) if so then after a drain, but this would most likely like people already said often enough just increase the number of f2p storage alts on chaos
  •     Remove speed bonus from logged off alts on boats on  PvP servers (dont want to remove this from pve servers as sailing is slow enough, on pvp it should be vulnerable though) -*the highest number you can imagine*. this shouldnt be a thing. do not add any more inconsistencies to the game. if you want to remove this feature go with a suggestion like this:which would be more work and also swap over to freedom, but i dont see anything wrong with this.
  •     Have tower guards target whoever is trying to capture the tower. Require killing of guards before tower is captured. Removal of action timer and requiring a certain amount of guards killed within a ten minute timeframe Remove interruptable action timer and be reliant on triggering the capture, then requiring a certain amount of guards required to be slain in order to capture the tower, or simply all guards slain within the timeframe, possible to scale according to local player count +/-0 not really sure why this is needed tbh, tower capping isnt supposed to be made harder by mechanics, but by enemy players showing up

 

SOTG

reduction to 25% DR until time for total meditation balancing is possible. Meditation should add flavour or slight benefits, not allow a path to be the dominant path

-1 just like this. after a lot of discussion about this with other MRC members and seeing a non-sotg almsot being oneshotted myself (and he surely wasnt the weakest account in that battle) reducing the EHP of the biggest part of the community isnt what you want. this might be a first step, but either rebalance the player hp overall on pvp servers (and this is not a problem that can be pushed back to next year) or add a bonus to all players that will "reduce damage taken from players by 25" at the same time you push the SoTG nerf. or give it to lvl 1 on the meditation paths or whatever you guys feel like. but dont just cut down on player ehp even more.

 

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Can we please have two threads, one for epic and the other for chaos. The thoughts on how PVP should be ran are completely different on the two. some things epic wants chaos doesn't want or need and vise versa. 

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I know how much damage Zivirt done to me. Nerf sotg and I would be dead from him and an arrow from Yurik

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I've said this multiple times in the thread now, they need to raise peoples base hps so that the body stats play a more important role.

 

As it stands right now players with gone get 3-4 shot with huge axes and its worse for people without it.

 

UP peoples base hps, so that they don't die in 1-2 hits, people will be more inclined to pvp and you would see a lot more activity.

 

btw I didn't always have gone and was quite successful without it so its possible to play without it, it just makes it a bit harder for the less experienced player.

Edited by TradingAlt
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