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Retrograde

PvP changes refined

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5 minutes ago, bloodmaster said:

Considering you haven't played in the past far enough to experience the old days which people preferred to pvp in, the reason it sucks people can tp in is that you can bypass traps and cut off to the entrances of deeds that the enemy have done. This was a major part in the past and much more fun and balanced instead of the magical method of tping in everyone at the same time to for a defense zerg. If you have to come on foot it is obvious who will be coming in 80 tiles out. With teleport if you're near the token that gap is much less than 80 tiles.

You can still employ all of those tactics if you put some thought into it.  From the sounds of the proposed changes, thinking in pvp is no longer a priority, if something is too tough to figure out, cry on the forums and the devs will make it easier for you, pathetic.

Edited by madnezz

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Just now, madnezz said:

You can still employ all of those tactics if you put some thought into it.

And how do you do that when people can magically teleport into a deed you are hours into attacking?

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OK, I'll humor you.  What "counters" are you referring to?

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5 minutes ago, Wargasm said:

OK, I'll humor you.  What "counters" are you referring to?

catapult doors specifically, and wall in minedoors.

 

or even just walling in the token

Edited by TradingAlt

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3 hours ago, Retrograde said:
  •    Remove expanded Information minister functions removal of "x enters your territory" This would be a good change for the best +1. I would also suggest removing twitter alerts on PvP servers too.
  •     Remove all teleportation forms on PvP servers (including home servers). Cooldown on exiting local of enemy players, crossing servers, disabling teleporting into enemy presence and alerted deeds I feel this would be unfair for those who are genuine villagers. Make it so that you cannot teleport into a deed you have not been a village for more than 24 hours.
  •     Remove archery penalties or scale according to individual armour pieces. I quite like the archery penalties, keep them. It makes it so that other armours are viable, but also means you are vulnerable to hits if you swap to a weaker armour whilst archering.
  •     Disable embarking on vehicles or mounts while in combat with an enemy players.5 second timer to embark, disruptable Never seen this as an issue. No need for it.
  •     Addition of Archery keybinds. Would be cool
  •     Remove stun/throw from valrei mobs.Until throwing/stun mechanics can be addressed Not a massive issue, but nogumps are a little silly, yes.
  •     Make nolocate on bodies work similar to jewellery with power determining % blocked. Cooldowns on searching for same person.30 second cooldown when Nolocate is effective, no nolo, no cooldown +1 nolo should never been 100% protective.
  •  
  •     Creation of a “verbose” combat tab option, including extra information such as Area of Effect spells, Direct target spells,     karma and meditation buffs, etc Meh
  •     Scale scenario point rewards according to mission type (sacrifice, drain, traitor, tree) then modified by whether server is friendly, enemy, or elevation (varied scenario points per part of mission, multiplied by .5, 1 or 1.5 according to server, this would mean a hard mission on a home server is still better than an easy mission on an enemy server, move timers may be adjusted accordingly) Meh
  •     Make uniques focus points of missions, or giving kingdom based rewards for slaying Neutral mission to slay x unique in x region, slaying faction receives god move reduction as if they completed a mission for said god -1. Keep unique killing to how it is/was.
  •     Change battle rank to only be given through kills, not through missions or capping towers/camps Why is this an issue? Rank is just epeen.
  •     Make chaos and possibly home server merchants tauntable (perhaps require killing of all guards, or a drain similar to disintegration) +1
  •     Remove speed bonus from logged off alts on boats on  PvP servers (dont want to remove this from pve servers as sailing is slow enough, on pvp it should be vulnerable though) +1
  •     Have tower guards target whoever is trying to capture the tower. Require killing of guards before tower is captured. Removal of action timer and requiring a certain amount of guards killed within a ten minute timeframe Remove interruptable action timer and be reliant on triggering the capture, then requiring a certain amount of guards required to be slain in order to capture the tower, or simply all guards slain within the timeframe, possible to scale according to local player count If guards go for the person capturing the tower always that would make tower capping more or less impossible. Perhaps make it so that ALL guards spawned from the tower cap must be killed for the tower to convert.

 

SOTG

reduction to 25% DR until time for total meditation balancing is possible. Meditation should add flavour or slight benefits, not allow a path to be the dominant path +1

 

Added my comments in red. I feel as if many issues havnt even been picked up on and a lot of these are just "easy" solutions. Why arent the harder issues being addressed which have been raised? nvm read the OP. I look forwards to the other proposed changes.

 

I would highly suggest that once all these changes are put in a vote for a Chaos map reset should be done.

Edited by Redd
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9 minutes ago, bloodmaster said:

And how do you do that when people can magically teleport into a deed you are hours into attacking?

So your argument is that because you raided a place you are entitled to win because you spent hours?

 

As for counters, I am not going to play the game for you...figure them out...they exist.

Edited by madnezz

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1 minute ago, TradingAlt said:

catapult doors specifically, and wall in minedoors.

And that counters teleporting to the token how exactly? Big deal you do that when the enemy teleports in a huge group to make you back off and run?

 

Just now, madnezz said:

So you argument is that because you raided a place you are entitled to win because you spent hours?

 

As for counters, I am not going to play the game for you...figure them out...they exist.

Did I say that anywhere? You always try and put words in people's mouths. I put down for several hours as it's a common thing for a raid on anything to take upwards of 1 hour.

If your "counters" are the same of Jukimo (and you guys seem to think alike) they are really not. You never played back then so you probably don't understand it.

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1 minute ago, madnezz said:

So you argument is that because you raided a place you are entitled to win because you spent hours?

 

As for counters, I am not going to play the game for you...figure them out...they exist.

 

No, my argument is that an entire kingdom shouldn't be able to instantly teleport to defend a deed, only members of THAT village that have been a member of that village for at least 24 hours. 

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Just now, bloodmaster said:

And that counters teleporting to the token how exactly? Big deal you do that when the enemy teleports in a huge group to make you back off and run?

Do the defenders always have a big enough group to push attackers back all the time? thats a pretty dumb reason to insist on this being removed.

How often does MR raid jk deeds and jk karma in more people then MR has to push us back?? Not very often... we usually leave because of boredom/people gotta sleep.

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And if the entire kingdom is dumb enough to do that they can't do it again for another 24 hours.

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Just now, madnezz said:

And if the entire kingdom is dumb enough to do that they can't do it again for another 24 hours.

exactly you can just switch raid targets and laugh as the entire enemy kingdom is stuck in that deed.

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1 minute ago, TradingAlt said:

Do the defenders always have a big enough group to push attackers back all the time? thats a pretty dumb reason to insist on this being removed.

How often does MR raid jk deeds and jk karma in more people then MR has to push us back?? Not very often... we usually leave because of boredom/people gotta sleep.

It's still a threat that looms for any raid group. And if it doesn't against a stronger group, then you're silly not to consider it as it definitely a strategy everyone has used including MR. It is not sensible mechanic and I'm glad it is looking into being removed as it should have been never put in to pvp servers.

 

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2 minutes ago, bloodmaster said:

It's still a threat that looms for any raid group. And if it doesn't against a stronger group, then you're silly not to consider it as it definitely a strategy everyone has used including MR. It is not sensible mechanic and I'm glad it is looking into being removed as it should have been never put in to pvp servers.

 

Must not be 2 op, if we still manage to disband enemy deeds.

 

Also if the defending group is strong enough to push you back, chances are the same exact group is strong enough to roll up to the deed with horses and kill you anyway.

Edited by TradingAlt

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Then it probably won't hurt if the defender doesn't have the ability to teleport anymore then, huh?

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Just now, Wargasm said:

Then it probably won't hurt if the defender doesn't have the ability to teleport anymore then, huh?

Possibly but I was just pointing out the fallacy in his argument.

 

Another reason why people karma port into deeds, isn't so that they can bring 20 people to push back attackers. They do it so they don't have to ride halfway across the map and can just get straight into the action. On a chaos sized map, even with the best horse gear available on a 5 speed hell horse it can still take 20-30~ minutes to cross the map. This cuts down on travel time and gets people straight to where the fighting may occur. Some people have limited play times, and this gives those people a chance to participate.

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This revised list looks great. Just two points:

 

  •     Scale scenario point rewards according to mission type (sacrifice, drain, traitor, tree) then modified by whether server is friendly, enemy, or elevation (varied scenario points per part of mission, multiplied by .5, 1 or 1.5 according to server, this would mean a hard mission on a home server is still better than an easy mission on an enemy server, move timers may be adjusted accordingly)
    These multipliers do not go far enough. Ten home server missions can often be completed in the same time it takes to do one elevation mission. Make the multipliers .1, 1, or 1.5. Otherwise, these modifiers are not a strong enough incentive to encourage mission-running players to do missions on elevation, it is still more efficient to do home server missions.

 

  •     Make chaos and possibly home server merchants tauntable (perhaps require killing of all guards, or a drain similar to disintegration)
    Still listed as 'possibly' home server merchants. This should absolutely affect home server merchants, as they are currently used as 100% safe item banks.
    Using alts to store items in complete safety also needs to be addressed. Increase decay on items held by inactive/non-premium characters.
Edited by CaptainFightyPants

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Why discourage travel in a PvP server?
I personally have not yet run into another player on boat while I have been on boat other than when I was chasing a target.

I think karma and teleport mechanics should be entirely removed. If you want to overextend your kingdom and take over the whole map, I sure hope that you have a reasonable means to secure your far away land. Jukimo has always bragged about how they had so many players that they could be living in every deed or whatever, but lol.
Ride your HH's across the server, stop complaining about promoting PvP. The enemy has to travel, so should you.

I hoped that we could see things like calf-shots being brought back into the game, but it doesn't look like it has made the list

2 minutes ago, TradingAlt said:

Possibly but I was just pointing out the fallacy in his argument.

 

Another reason why people karma port into deeds, isn't so that they can bring 20 people to push back attackers. They do it so they don't have to ride halfway across the map and can just get straight into the action. On a chaos sized map, even with the best horse gear available on a 5 speed hell horse it can still take 20-30~ minutes to cross the map. This cuts down on travel time and gets people straight to where the fighting may occur. Some people have limited play times, and this gives those people a chance to participate.

If your kingdom didn't overextend half way across the map because of poor gameplay implementations, you wouldn't have this issue.
Maybe it's time for a downsizing. I'm glad at least you see it too and agree with me.

Edited by SkirmishesThreadOnly
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Thought I should give some feedback unlike others, just moaning in here:

3 hours ago, Retrograde said:

I've gone through and removed some of the more negative ones in the OP, and also added bold text explaining a few better, as well as adjusting them compared to the original premise

 

Please bear in mind this is not all the changes. For the sake of structuring I have split the many changes we intend on bringing in into smaller sprints in order to continue to actively improve pvp. Each change or addition will then be monitored.

 

Widespread balancing involving combat, weapons, armour, mounts, spells, priests, meditation, karma, sorcery will take time, the aim of this is to address key long standing mechanics issues, and allow us to then view what needs to balance and plan accordingly.

 

no changes to mechanics will go live without the information being made available prior

Changes

  •     Remove expanded Information minister functions removal of "x enters your territory" +1, look into removing twitter from pvp servers too though as it is just abused to use bots to scan twitter and send out automated alerts. This is pretty much the same of macro'ing but for a deed alert system. Removal of automatic tweeting/tweeting of any sort will kill this sort of practice and make pvp healthier.
  •     Remove all teleportation forms on PvP servers (including home servers). Cooldown on exiting local of enemy players, crossing servers, disabling teleporting into enemy presence and alerted deeds +1, so many times people just run and as soon as they pop out of local hit teleport back to deed. It is far to easy to do it in places you could be caught out right now.
  •     Remove archery penalties or scale according to individual armour pieces. +1, It was a controversial update to do this among the pvp community anyway and has been asked to be looked at before.
  •     Disable embarking on vehicles or mounts while in combat with an enemy players.5 second timer to embark, disruptable Not sure how I feel about this. In some situations it would be great where people use it to hop onto boats from a huge distance away from the boat on land and run away. But it is quite annoying for boat pvp when you may need to swap commander. Maybe look into how far away you can embark onto the boats as that is an annoying issue.
  •     Addition of Archery keybinds.
  •     Remove stun/throw from valrei mobs.Until throwing/stun mechanics can be addressed The throwing mechanics are pretty silly and if a valrei mob spawns on you it can get you killed in pvp alone to the stun mechanics, a good call to do while it is looked into.
  •     Make nolocate on bodies work similar to jewellery with power determining % blocked. Cooldowns on searching for same person.30 second cooldown when Nolocate is effective, no nolo, no cooldown Major +1, nolo is far to powerful giving 100% block. There is no counter play unless you already know where they are to somehow dispel them, as you can see it's a silly argument. I would recommend making it just do a reduced 2nd roll on the nolo ring. If you make it do twice the roll it is nearly as effective as 100% block in some cases eg 90/90 (ql/nolo) ring + 90 nolo cast would give a 1 in 100 to get a hit. It may be a little extreme? Depends on people's opinions but it could be a little bit too good especially if you include this 30 second cooldown as for one person to do it would take on average 100 minutes to do it (cast time + cooldown).
  •  
  •     Creation of a “verbose” combat tab option, including extra information such as Area of Effect spells, Direct target spells,     karma and meditation buffs, etc +1 for QoL change that is needed.
  •     Scale scenario point rewards according to mission type (sacrifice, drain, traitor, tree) then modified by whether server is friendly, enemy, or elevation (varied scenario points per part of mission, multiplied by .5, 1 or 1.5 according to server, this would mean a hard mission on a home server is still better than an easy mission on an enemy server, move timers may be adjusted accordingly) Not real opinion as I don't play on epic so cannot speak for them.
  •     Make uniques focus points of missions, or giving kingdom based rewards for slaying Neutral mission to slay x unique in x region, slaying faction receives god move reduction as if they completed a mission for said god Not real opinion as I don't play on epic so cannot speak for them.
  •     Change battle rank to only be given through kills, not through missions or capping towers/camps +1 just because it is just for show, it's the only real way (or meant to be) to show who is doing the best in pvp, not doing pve stuff.
  •     Make chaos and possibly home server merchants tauntable (perhaps require killing of all guards, or a drain similar to disintegration) I feel this won't do anything but push people to use alts which are impossible to get items off anyway.
  •     Remove speed bonus from logged off alts on boats on  PvP servers (dont want to remove this from pve servers as sailing is slow enough, on pvp it should be vulnerable though) +1, no reason to allow this to stick in when it is basically a bug.
  •     Have tower guards target whoever is trying to capture the tower. Require killing of guards before tower is captured. Removal of action timer and requiring a certain amount of guards killed within a ten minute timeframe Remove interruptable action timer and be reliant on triggering the capture, then requiring a certain amount of guards required to be slain in order to capture the tower, or simply all guards slain within the timeframe, possible to scale according to local player count Not sure how to feel about this. I feel the capping system is terrible as a way to gain territory. The bashing and rebuild method is more balanced. I have said why before, if you bash a tower you can't instantly drop a deed to hold it.

 

SOTG

reduction to 25% DR until time for total meditation balancing is possible. Meditation should add flavour or slight benefits, not allow a path to be the dominant path +1 SoTG nerfs are needed to balance out the broken combat system. A full look into meditation and damage and such needs to be done to fix the major issues though.

 

 

23 minutes ago, TradingAlt said:

Must not be 2 op, if we still manage to disband enemy deeds.

 

Also if the defending group is strong enough to push you back, chances are the same exact group is strong enough to roll up to the deed with horses and kill you anyway.

But you see the issue is, some people live halfway across the map and won't come on horses ever. Sure you argue people should be involved if they have no time. Wurm takes time to play so that is a silly argument anyway. But okay even if you have less time you should be able to be involved, sure. How did we used to do it before all the rubbish teleporting? You lived at a deed on the frontlines. You can't pick and choose if you haven't got time, you either move and live close or don't get involved. Teleporting allows unfair over expansion from other deeds.

Edited by bloodmaster

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reduction to 25% DR until time for total meditation balancing is possible. Meditation should add flavour or slight benefits, not allow a path to be the dominant path

this will do nothing... sotg will still be the only path used for pvp chars

remove it from the game until u can balance it.

every other path is pretty even so more variety 

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Remove all teleportation forms on PvP servers (including home servers). Cooldown on exiting local of enemy players, crossing servers, disabling teleporting into enemy presence and alerted deeds

 

Remove Karma porting entirely please! All this will do is mean players can karma in right by deed to another and gather up to rush players. People should have to ride horses or sail to the places they would like to go to. OR get 80 med to get the tele from that, or take your chances with insanity tele. Otherwise teleporting is to powerful and should be removed, as it allows defending of deed literally on other side of map.

 

Disable embarking on vehicles or mounts while in combat with an enemy players.5 second timer to embark, disruptable

 

NO NO NO NO NO. If someone is able to jump on a damn cart or wagon and get away from you then you failed. Also PLEASE fix the ability to embark from so far away, that really is the biggest problem here.

Edited by necroe
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  •     Remove expanded Information minister functions removal of "x enters your territory"  Good
  •     Remove all teleportation forms on PvP servers (including home servers). Cooldown on exiting local of enemy players, crossing servers, disabling teleporting into enemy presence and alerted deeds  Almost good, I still believe legit use of teleporting to defend should be allowed.  Even if you have to be a villager for a month to unlock it for all I care. 
  •     Remove archery penalties or scale according to individual armour pieces.  Still good
  •     Disable embarking on vehicles or mounts while in combat with an enemy players.5 second timer to embark, disruptable  Erm no?  Bad solution to anything, just favors snowballing even more, or larger number groups
  •     Addition of Archery keybinds.  Still good
  •     Remove stun/throw from valrei mobs.Until throwing/stun mechanics can be addressed  At minimum still remove throwing, it just doesn't add any difficulty to the mob/game, it's just a bad annoyance
  •     Make nolocate on bodies work similar to jewellery with power determining % blocked. Cooldowns on searching for same person.30 second cooldown when Nolocate is effective, no nolo, no cooldown  I don't see a need for cooldown if power is directly %, someone with a 99 power nolo will be pretty hard to find as is
  •     Creation of a “verbose” combat tab option, including extra information such as Area of Effect spells, Direct target spells,     karma and meditation buffs, etc   Still good
  •     Scale scenario point rewards according to mission type (sacrifice, drain, traitor, tree) then modified by whether server is friendly, enemy, or elevation (varied scenario points per part of mission, multiplied by .5, 1 or 1.5 according to server, this would mean a hard mission on a home server is still better than an easy mission on an enemy server, move timers may be adjusted accordingly)  +1 to points balanced based on mission difficulty -1 to nerf on same kingdom home server reward -1 to buff on enemy server reward +1 to buff on elevation reward -1 to changing move timer changes
  •     Make uniques focus points of missions, or giving kingdom based rewards for slaying Neutral mission to slay x unique in x region, slaying faction receives god move reduction as if they completed a mission for said god  I thought about this more and -1, it's fine with the current occasional traitor missions.  In a way, it would be a buff to same kingdom home servers that some people hate this idea of?
  •     Change battle rank to only be given through kills, not through missions or capping towers/camps  Still good, still prefer only drops being by kills and deaths.  I already have all 3 rank titles from before missions got buffed into spamtownmania, would even be accepting resetting all ranks to 1000
  •     Make chaos and possibly home server merchants tauntable (perhaps require killing of all guards, or a drain similar to disintegration)  +1 chaos -1 homes as said before, as balance like maybe allow taunting a merchant to get anything marked as 20s or higher or something to attack merchant banks but not legit sellers (on homes only)
  •     Remove speed bonus from logged off alts on boats on  PvP servers (dont want to remove this from pve servers as sailing is slow enough, on pvp it should be vulnerable though)  Still good
  •     Have tower guards target whoever is trying to capture the tower. Require killing of guards before tower is captured. Removal of action timer and requiring a certain amount of guards killed within a ten minute timeframe Remove interruptable action timer and be reliant on triggering the capture, then requiring a certain amount of guards required to be slain in order to capture the tower, or simply all guards slain within the timeframe, possible to scale according to local player count  I suppose removing the interruption is fine, just start a 2 minute timer or something after the normal timer ends and whenever guards are dead the cap is successfull, or if not done within 2 minutes, cap fails.  Any legit capture would have no problem killing the guards within 2 minutes, other than potentially a really unlucky spawn, but that's not much different then a potentially unlucky spawn tapping the capper for 0.3 dmg and stopping it, which would be removed

 

SOTG

reduction to 25% DR until time for total meditation balancing is possible. Meditation should add flavour or slight benefits, not allow a path to be the dominant path

 

I don't see how sotg would be "dominant" as is if it was 35% dr.  Path of power offers potentially up to that much dr, but in reality in a better way.  Ignoring weapon enchants?  That makes it easier to heal because less wounds.  The same goes for hell horse attacks, ice/fire pillar, fireheart/shard of ice, etc, less wounds to heal so it makes light of fo more effective.  Not counting the fact that ignoring an entire wound prevents hurting status.  And ignoring fireheart/shard of ice is a bonus for boat pvp that sotg can't cover.  Obviously power's elemental immunity is only a timed ability as well as only measured in potential ways, but that's balance on a level 9 ability versus a level 11 ability

 

The worst part about this situation of changing sotg now but a meditation overhaul later is what do we do?  Hold onto whatever changes there is until the overhaul and hope we can still change paths if allowed?  Or change paths now and hope we can change again later? Or.....?

Edited by MrGARY
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I agree with Gary not to do a half-ass change to sotg now and wait till a full med overhaul is prepared.

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6 minutes ago, Josh said:

I agree with Gary not to do a half-ass change to sotg now and wait till a full med overhaul is prepared.

That can take a year, i rather have a quick fix for now.

People get free switches now and at the full revamp, so nothing is "lost" for anyone.

If you feel insanity isn't the best choice for you after the nerf, then go another path.

If you start considering other paths aswell as insanity, then that doesn't mean something is wrong.

It simply means SOTG is no longer without question the best choice.

Edited by Zekezor

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power doesn't work against rt or lt attacks so that 30% is null once people use more rt weapons, realistically nobody would consider any other path if gone was 35%

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1 minute ago, Zekezor said:

That can take a year, i rather have a quick fix for now.

People get free switches now and at the full revamp, so nothing is "lost" for anyone.

 

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