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Retrograde

PvP changes refined

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6 minutes ago, bangzuvelis said:

I know how much damage Zivirt done to me. Nerf sotg and I would be dead from him and an arrow from Yurik

 

Were they using 2h Axes?  Just curious.  From what i've read, it seems like the problem is the insane damage out of 2Hs which is the real driver and SOTG just lets those accounts run with the big 2H equipped more.

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Mate Zivirt hit me when I was on Warrior which is a high end account for like 8% - 10% damage with Addy Large Axe. Warrior is SoTG with bunch of valreis either in scale or drake. At the same time I was able to one shot 60 body strenght non sotgs due to Mag bonus and huge axe. 

Edited by Egard
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1 minute ago, DrB said:

Were they using 2h Axes?  Just curious.  From what i've read, it seems like the problem is the insane damage out of 2Hs which is the real driver and SOTG just lets those accounts run with the big 2H equipped more.

2h axes mean nothing. A ballin' PVP account with 70BS can wipe someone out with sotg with a sickle for crying out loud. 

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7 minutes ago, DrB said:

 

Were they using 2h Axes?  Just curious.  From what i've read, it seems like the problem is the insane damage out of 2Hs which is the real driver and SOTG just lets those accounts run with the big 2H equipped more.

the problem is people don't have enough hp to survive hits from them before they can react....

 

if you up base hps, you can take more hits and the huge axes won't be such a dramatic effect

 

it will encourage less gatehopping because you will have a harder time killing someone at a gatehop, and because people survive a bit longer they may be inclined to do more activites such as hota etc and open field stuff. No one wants to go out with their nice gear to get 2 hit because base hps are super low compared to the damage weapons do.

 

Also someone with a huge axe out opposed to someone with a 1hander/shield will get rekt in fights because they won't be blocking...

Edited by TradingAlt

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Basically if we will take the only shield in game but will leave all the damage, we will never see any new people in pvp (polar is a different case here). SOTG takes only 6-7 months to get, but great  pvp skills take much more time to get. And so when you dont have that shield and always get killed from 1-2 hits, trust me, its no fun for a new account... Even gate hopping sounds dangerous then.

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1 minute ago, polarbear said:

2h axes mean nothing. A ballin' PVP account with 70BS can wipe someone out with sotg with a sickle for crying out loud. 

Exactly the way some bonuses scale in the game means the highest end toons are unassailable unless they are played stupidly or caught in a perfect trap.  My suggestion would at least allow everyone who did meditation some staying power.  Best WOULD be to increase base hit points but it would really need to be a regressive growth with most of the hp on the bottom end and the extra cushion slowly expanding at the top.

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3 minutes ago, bangzuvelis said:

Basically if we will take the only shield in game but will leave all the damage, we will never see any new people in pvp (polar is a different case here). SOTG takes only 6-7 months to get, but great  pvp skills take much more time to get. And so when you dont have that shield and always get killed from 1-2 hits, trust me, its no fun for a new account... Even gate hopping sounds dangerous then.

that can be fixed by upping a toons base hps...

 

lets say for example you gave someone on a starter account 4x their current starting hp, but made it so that body stats only give you a slight bonus, new players would be able to compete and the gap between new and old wouldn't be that high.

 

then remove all other sources of damage reduction and problem sorted.

Edited by TradingAlt
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4 minutes ago, TradingAlt said:

that can be fixed by upping a toons base hps...

 

lets say for example you gave someone on a starter account 4x their current starting hp, but made it so that body stats only give you a slight bonus, new players would be able to compete and the gap between new and old wouldn't be that high.

 

then remove all other sources of damage reduction and problem sorted.

that could possibly work.

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2 minutes ago, bangzuvelis said:

that could possibly work.

they'd have to remove all the bonuses to damage/damage reduction tho.

 

Mag bonus

Sotg
Valrei resistances

rod of beguiling

hate bonus

 

 

and just make things give extra cr or something instead of damage multipliers.

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8 minutes ago, TradingAlt said:

that can be fixed by upping a toons base hps...

 

lets say for example you gave someone on a starter account 4x their current starting hp, but made it so that body stats only give you a slight bonus, new players would be able to compete and the gap between new and old wouldn't be that high.

 

then remove all other sources of damage reduction and problem sorted.

there would really be nothing wrong with this because the bottom line is people cry about SotG because survival is poor.  Removing SotG and addressing base hitpoints would be a meaningful way to make pvp more approachable.  This is really where we need the devs to tell us WHAT the specific problems are that they are trying to address.

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I mean, please do not get me wrong. I might sound like I am standing for SOTG cause I have it, or blackmonk will get it tomorrow. I am just trying to think how could I possibly survive without it against so much damage. 

Maybe SOTG does look very OP compare to other med paths, but in my opinion in pvp it is just a must have, due to sorcery perks, shiny moonmetal's extra damage, other damage saurces (like some priests' additional damage), etc. 

People can shoot arrows through walls. Will nerfing SOTG means I will have no chance of escaping to a cave or somewhere safe? So far the only real suggestion about SOTG I feel I saw only in Jukimo's post, with base HP. 

Edited by bangzuvelis

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13 minutes ago, TradingAlt said:

that can be fixed by upping a toons base hps...

 

lets say for example you gave someone on a starter account 4x their current starting hp, but made it so that body stats only give you a slight bonus, new players would be able to compete and the gap between new and old wouldn't be that high.

 

then remove all other sources of damage reduction and problem sorted.

yeah simply upping the base hp at 19 body strength by a LOT, like 3-4x, would probably be the best approach.

but completely removing dmg reduction and dmg bonuses would go too far imo. it'd pretty much remove all differences and turn it into a gray clump.

this doesnt need to be removed but needs a rebalance at the root, so i hope when the devs take a look at a rebalancing of meditation they will also ask for feedback on that and maybe include a sorcery rebalance (like less effectivity the more charges you use, not being able to have up multiple valrei casts at the same time etc) but this probably isnt part of their "short term fixes/balances".

so for now:

increase base health. by a lot!

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On 3/27/2016 at 2:29 PM, DannyNG said:

this will do nothing... sotg will still be the only path used for pvp chars

remove it from the game until u can balance it.

every other path is pretty even so more variety 

 

FTFY

 

Madnezz - All of your arguments are anecdotal arguments; you speak in terms of what I like or how it was for you instead of providing a sound and valid logical argument. It doesn't matter what you want or what I want. Balance is what matters. You and I (and everyone else) all know that many of these features (ie. teleporting, SotG) have no counters and are imbalanced. We all know that that is exactly why everyone uses them. 

 

You aren't arguing for better balance (which is the entire point of this development initiative); you are arguing for the unbalanced features to stay because you do not wish to change your playstyle (which any balanced game requires as the meta progressively changes). What you are arguing for is a system that does not reward skill and does not promote emergent gameplay. You are arguing for the system that you know because you cannot be arsed to learn how to play again. Players like that are the ones that get dunked on by skilled players in any decently balanced game. Players like that are the ones crying "BAN THEM" when competitive players play on a public server. Players like that are called scrubs. No one likes to play with scrubs.

 

If you need any more clarification: 

XxaDakx.png

Edited by MisterTeddy

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Seems that it is not SOTG that is OP, but the damage with sorcery items, some weapons, etc. is. Ofc account will be OP with such massive damage and 50% damage reduction. Maybe before nerfing such shield, damage itself needs to be looked at: like sorcery spells - get rid of 100% crit - Nerfed SOTG will not hold its damage. 

 

Just a stupid idea to the pool: how about making toons to do less damage with SOTG (so that would sound like ~ 50% pdef, but ~25% less p damage to other toons/monsters/unique monsters). That would make them tanks, but not damage dealers in the tf. I am not sure about this and wouldnt mind some criticism over it. 

Please remember: chaos is not Epic, and I am only playing on chaos, thus all my thoughts can be ONLY about chaos.

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Oh man its simple, nerf sotg to 20-25%  

buff hate to do all time increased dmg of about 50% more 

Increase base health of each players by 2x so that we do not see people die like anything

It is so simple, people who actively pvp know this, people who do not pvp are just writing stuff here out of their minds and hypothetical situations

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1 hour ago, Hashirama said:

Oh man its simple, nerf sotg to 20-25%  

buff hate to do all time increased dmg of about 50% more 

Increase base health of each players by 2x so that we do not see people die like anything

It is so simple, people who actively pvp know this, people who do not pvp are just writing stuff here out of their minds and hypothetical situations

Hate is fine as it is. It is much easier to get the hate bonus then SoTG and if you nerf SotG and buff hate everyone will be Hate instead of SoTG meaning there will be thread about nerfing Hate. That is not balance. Additionally the only good thing except for suicide random teleport on the path of insanity is SoTG, all other abilities are a joke.

Edited by Wulfgarr

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On 3/30/2016 at 1:25 AM, Retrograde said:

Reduction of SotG and removal of archery penalties would mean using a huge axe would be quite vulnerable considering.

 

true strike and equipment timers in combat has also been raised

 

Do you have any updates on if SotG is reduced/Archery penalties removed, if changes such as changing players base HP/True Strike will be changed at the same time?

Because while players would not have a shield/high defence while using a huge axe, killing an armored player still takes alot of hits, SotG or not without a huge axe, in which time they can easily equip a shield.

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From what i've read, simply doing things like adjusting SOTG, Hate Bonus, or even buffing hit points are just throwing bandaids at the problem.  Damage dealing has scaled up and the flaws in the damage algorithm are being exposed.  I would suggest the cause is that there are now accounts with body strength up there, based upon the posts above about 70 BS scaling up the damage radically.

 

Simply buffing up player hitpoints isn't enough since that would then make it so a started player can take on a troll.  Buffing up Troll damage would likely then cause other problems like damage to armor.  A simpler answer may be (and i'm posing it for the Devs to consider looking at) is to change the combat/CR equation itself or at least make sure what used to be outliers (and is now the norm) aren't what is screwing it up.

 

You can get the same effect as boosting hitpoints by lowering damage output but without requiring every creature and equipment damage element having to be looked at.  When a 50+ body in 80+ plate with 90+ shield skill gets demolished in 7 hits over 20 seconds -- damage output is over the top.

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This is what happens when you add so many different features in the game that has the ability to cause so much inbalance without considering balance in the first place. afaik there's no visual indicator to show someone has truehit ready, or that ability that negates 3 attacks, if we had these then dispel would be useful to 'counter' the ability, currently you have to mindlessly spam dispel on everyone.

 

Nerfing SOTG does make other weapon combos over powered as suggested, huge axe, addy, true hit, mag bonus, radda radda radda. It's funny how everyone knew this but didn't want to address the issue until they knew SoTG was going to be tweaked, they just held onto this excuse in hopes it'd prevent the change, rather than discuss balance around the core mechanics instead.

 

Is the real issue that forces people to the SoTG meta is the fact peoples HP are too low? Weapons damage too high? Because you can stack so many offensive / defensive bonuses because there's nothing you can do about it other than do it yourself?

 

Again, there's so many passive bonuses in the game that can stack and don't have a downside or effective counter play (debuffs, does anyone ever notice weapons vs armour bonuses / weaknesses when in combat?). The initial idea of the valrei system was cool, you'd get a bonus defensive bonus + ability at a cost of a bigger defensive nerf. Having all abilities meant you'd be like 5-10% less defensive overall but have all these cool abilities, Now iirc it balances out with more defensive bonuses.

 

Edit: DrB has a good point in the fact of how damage bonus / reduction scales

Edited by MetalDragon
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47 minutes ago, MetalDragon said:

This is what happens when you add so many different features in the game that has the ability to cause so much inbalance without considering balance in the first place.

 

Hence why so many don't want to change things for the sake of changing things.  There are way to many variables and situations that haven't been accounted for.  "SOTG" needs its own thread and discussion.

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most of that is because 2h weapons have become viable due to archery mechanics changing and the introduction of other DR stacking items

 

Reverting archery mechanics back to making shields a requirement would push back to 2h weapons users becoming pincushions in most scenarios

 

 

there is obviously a whole lot that needs to be addressed as a whole, which is what I said to most of you when in discussions. What we need to do here is address key immediate concerns, both from players and the dev team.

 

Once we have done that, we can take the time necessary to not only balance pvp, but redefine and rebuild it to how we want it to be

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18 minutes ago, Retrograde said:

most of that is because 2h weapons have become viable due to archery mechanics changing and the introduction of other DR stacking items

 

Reverting archery mechanics back to making shields a requirement would push back to 2h weapons users becoming pincushions in most scenarios

 

 

there is obviously a whole lot that needs to be addressed as a whole, which is what I said to most of you when in discussions. What we need to do here is address key immediate concerns, both from players and the dev team.

 

Once we have done that, we can take the time necessary to not only balance pvp, but redefine and rebuild it to how we want it to be

Thats not true at all. You dont use 2h in archery range. They're only for close up. If im far enough that the enemy is shooting me and not in melee you better believe im either shooting back or wearing a shield. I realize you've never pvp'd so i can understand the misconception. 2h weapons have always been viable, but the only thing making them such a meta is SOTG

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People are talking about "the fear of getting one-shotted" as if PvP was less common prior to SotG...

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5 minutes ago, Fawkes said:

People are talking about "the fear of getting one-shotted" as if PvP was less common prior to SotG...

 

To be fair, around the same time people started getting sotg (on epic at least), pvp was gearing towards doing more damage and stayed on this route kinda.  Initially for a long time the "meta" was to use a weak longsword (even during the meta change to use plate), until people started realizing how smart it is to use a weapon that gives out more damage like an axe while keeping a backup weapon, or using a medium maul which had its damage output outright buffed.  Over time moon metal quantities grew.  Hota wins, loot, chests, depot, valrei spawns, it just happens which is nbd, but people then start using armor that requires people to rethink strategies of trying to kill someone faster than they can be killed, while being able to make glimmer/addy 2h weapons along with their main/backup weapons, and mag's damage bonus was given to a priest that is actually pretty handy to use for pvp. 

 

The only way to find out what will happen is by watching what does happen though.  But I can be certain people will still use huge axes and try to outdamage the other group

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