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Upcoming PvP changes

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Just now, Erinyesthegreat said:

ok smart guy u tell me how deeds with low numbers defend without losing everything. Then cause they lose everything they leave epic / chaos even less pvp on server ur rly smart guy

I'm quite confused.

You talk as if defending with lower numbers isn't the normal scenario.... and you speak as if that hasn't been done successfull a ton times in the past.

You also seem to believe that its not possible to loot a lot of things atm...?

 

If your main concern is avoiding loss, then homeservers is a more suitable area to live since not only will all the benefits of being the defender affect you, but your enemy will also be CR nerfed, archery nerfed and spellnerfed.

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Just now, bangzuvelis said:

To be honest I am trying to understand SOTG change.. Every one in PVP has it. If they dont have SOTG, but have something else and are crying that they cant fight, its their problem. They have an option to grab a rug and change the path.

people with sotg are asking for it to be changed :rolleyes:

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I don't have much at stake in the whole SOTG thing, but it seems that if SOTG is the de facto choice for PVP paths, then maybe the problem is lack of choice; if PVPers are around 33% of Wurm's population, it seems reasonable that 2 out of 5 paths should cater to them.  Path of Insanity doesn't look like it's "supposed" to be the PVP path, but it is due to the damage resistance it offers, while Path of Hate is all about PVP but languishes without a lot of use because it just doesn't hold a candle.  Maybe Path of Hate needs to be a more viable alternative to Insanity.

 

Also, Knowledge 11 is +25% and Power 11 is +30%, and nobody seems to find them overpowered.  Maybe there's something in that, and level 11 boosts should be in the +25/30% range across the board.  +25% or +30% damage resistance would be pretty good without being too crazy, and maybe Hate level 11 could get +25% or +30% to COOL STUFF to make it more appealing.

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19 minutes ago, Erinyesthegreat said:

no need to drain token just walk right up to deed tunnel in and break reinforced wall, yea ur right not making it easy

 

Or just fire 6 catapult shots at a longhouse wall at an undefended deed, collapse that tile, and walk on in.  The combination appears heavily geared to the attack.  While yes, it makes it so a smaller kingdom could, in theory, go raid the multitude of deeds scattered around the S and E sides of the map (twitter warning and hellhorse rides buy the attacker some time since information minister doesn't give the early warning), the effects aren't restricted from the larger kingdoms who will find it a much quicker task to flatten a deed.

Edited by DrB
clarified

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I don't mind the change to tower capping if it's more difficult to interrupt the calling. Maybe interrupting capping only happens when the capper is at 50% health or something along those lines so respawns don't immediately wreck things?

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1 minute ago, Xalorum said:

I don't mind the change to tower capping if it's more difficult to interrupt the calling. Maybe interrupting capping only happens when the capper is at 50% health or something along those lines so respawns don't immediately wreck things?

Yeah, 'hey guys want to come heal me while i cap this tower?' seems like a way better alternative

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2 minutes ago, Oreo said:

Yeah, 'hey guys want to come heal me while i cap this tower?' seems like a way better alternative

The intent is to make capping towers more difficult, no?

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59 minutes ago, Retrograde said:
  •     Remove Information minister.  +1 remove twitter for Chaos and Epic servers as well.
  •     Remove all teleportation forms on PvP servers (including home servers). Not all, but maybe just not be able to karma in when village is under siege
  •     Remove archery penalties or scale according to individual armour pieces. remove it all together please
  •     Disable embarking on vehicles or mounts while in combat with an enemy players. sure you can do that, but i feel like it will be very buggy. why not just do -50% CR?
  •     Addition of Archery keybinds. sure why not
  •     Remove stun/throw from valrei mobs. sure why not
  •     Make nolocate on bodies work similar to jewellery with power determining % blocked. yes Cooldowns on searching for same person. no point in doing this....
  •     Remove disintegration requiring token drain and remove magranon bonus. shouldn't have been added in the first place
  •     Creation of a “verbose” combat tab option, including extra information such as Area of Effect spells, Direct target spells,     karma and meditation buffs, etc Yes
  •     Raise deed costs on PvP servers to limit expansion by simply placing multiple deeds to conquer towers Not needed, they're expensive enough
  •     Make uniques focus points of missions, or giving kingdom based rewards for slaying would be nice on chaos
  •     Change battle rank to only be given through kills, not through missions or capping towers/camps. reset all ranks while you're at it
  •     Make destruction of longhouses easier, focus on less tedium when raiding and promote faster raids. don't bother, you might as well bring back the old and very simple catapulting system, not the current wonky piece of crap one currently
  •     Make chaos and possibly home server merchants tauntable yes
  •     Remove speed bonus from logged off alts on boats on  PvP servers yes, why was it in first of all?
  •     Have tower guards target whoever is trying to capture the tower. Require killing of guards before tower is captured. removing tower capturing all together

 

Shield of the Gone

SotG has been a long term issue with PvPers, and it is quite clear that it is too powerful in its current state.We currently have two proposed changes, which are listed below:

  • Reworking SotG to only work with Cloth or Leather armour, moving a SotG character to being lighter without sacrificing protection (being slightly more than steel plate, but lower than scale/moon plate) yet not be the current tank that it is. Currently there are really two "go to" meditation paths for pvpers. Path of insanity and hate. It's defense(insanity) vs offense (hate). Path of hate doesn't really offer much in its kit at all because its not consistently, because you can easily be a priest of Nathan or Mag and have the damage bonus consitently. Instead you should be listening to whomever suggested the scaling of not only path of insanity but all paths. Majority of PvPers are on Path of Insanity because it offers the best of the two PvP meditation choices. If this change is made I really don't see any point in anyone being path of Insanity to be honest, everyone will just switch over to Hate, then that will be the new OP med path.

 

  • Alternatively, remove the ability to heal from Life Transfer and all healing spells. This moves the SotG character into a strong fighter in a short melee, but in drawn out conflicts becomes very fragile. Why? its already 50% less healing all together

Other changes that have not yet been discussed include

  • Removal of oakshell from mounts (player targets only). i'm meh about this
  • Resistance to healing spells/cooldown. explain more?
  • HotA changes. remove the ability to gain champion points as well as rank [13:54:29] Lisabet 484. over 90% of those points were from HOTA.
  • Many many more, feel free to ask about them!

 

When providing feedback, for the sake of clarity and easier cataloging, please provide which server you play on, if you play on both feel free to say so, but also indicate your main server.

JK Chaos

 

 

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To further elaborate on tedium of building a strong defendable deed here's what you need:

 

Token house around token

Tall rock/dirt walls at least 270 slope and usually multiple stacked tiles of them

Anti-ramp mines at the bottom of the slope to prevent dirt ramps being used to get up to token level easily. Recently planting mechanics changed making it far easier to get into an anti-ramp mine then before

To prevent lock-picking in through doors you use mine entrances with strong, 75+ ql steel mine doors so you build multiple entrance mines, one for each deed layer, all reinforced with gatehouses, steel mine doors etc.

The token house is surrounded by multiple layers of long houses. The higher the better since it takes longer to destroy them which is what is required if someone wants to lower the dirt wall to make a ramp up into deed

Multiple safe mines with steel mine doors so that enemies have to break in to more then one mine

A donut mine around the entire edge of the deed featuring 5 - 7 layers wide of reinforced tiles so that one disintegrate isn't enough to break in.

Time has to be spent setting up proper security permissions

 

This stuff takes months of work especially if the team building the deed is small. Even if it was only weeks of work notice the time line.

 

An attacking force can take a deed in hours negating months of work. It takes far more effort to build a proper defendable deed then it does to attack it and while this building effort is going on the deed is vulnerable to attack.

 

In my opinion deeds are already too easy to break into. Making them easier still just negates the reason for deeding in the first place.

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I don't see why all teleportation is removed... if a village isnt under siege, a enemy hasnt been in local for a while and you didnt just log in or cross a server border.... then whats the harm?

Edited by Zekezor

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I assume the deed cost thing would only be for small outposts? otherwise it hurts the legit deeds a lot. I still believe the issue at hand would still be a problem, just means the rich players of Wurm will have to put a bit more cash into it.

 

The longhouse changes are also a bad idea, adds to snowballing. If Catapult mechanics were changed so double or triple dirt walls could be hit, it wouldn't be too much of an issue. The meta now is to have many catapults running at once, by nerfing longhouses "multi catapult setups" become OP. If the idea is to remove the base walls which would destroy everything above it, then multi story would be pointless, a waste of resources.

 

I don't agree with the reinforced mine mechanic change either when you have priests who just need like 5 potatoes to cast a spell, that alone makes the 'difficulty' a lot less.

 

The SoTG changes seem to be a bit excessive, the first option makes leather and cloth armour attractive to PvP in. The second makes sense but im not sure on the impact at yet. I don't know why something simple as making it an activatable ability (to match hate) and rework something else into a passive...  (I don't understand why there's these strong passives, when there's no debuffs to counter it)

 

The suggestion to tower capping either suggests those proposing it have never capped a tower, or the change won't be that excessive, currently tower guards will spawn and some do target the person capturing it, the likelihood you get interrupted is really high unless you have high body control, 10 minutes while you hope you don't get hit. These tower guards can spawn 1-10+? guards at a time, super tanky and a chance of spawning an even tankier captain. If the idea is to kill ~10 tower guards before they can hit your guy capping the tower with hopes it doesn't double or triple wave you, then the TG's will need to take 1-2 hits to die or the likelihood of being interrupted must be lowered. This change benefits the bigger kingdom also, smaller kingdoms won't be able to push back.

 

Edited by MetalDragon

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43 minutes ago, DrB said:

Removal of oakshell from mounts means we also can't oakshell pets or archery grinding targets.  

 

For SOTG, I like the idea of a SOTG tank in cloth/leather better than being unable to heal them.  You suggest the healing change option means they're strong in short-term melee but what it really means is just that SOTG becomes target #1 versus what we have now.  That being said, I'm not sure making SOTG + leather ~ plate isn't too far.  Perhaps adjusting it to SOTG + cloth = just above steel, +leather/chain/plate = no effect, +dragon/moon = some added physical damage debuff?    SOTG + dragon/moon should remain superior or you've completely flipped the gearing of the SOTGs.

 

Can't embark in combat could be nasty.  It makes entering combat a "to the death" event. Think about that from a raid standpoint..one arrow, and you're stuck if you came by boat.

 

If tower guards aggro the capper, how will that not just end the cap at every guard spawn?  I think if you require all guards dead to finish the cap, the way they aggro on spawn doesn't need to change.

 

Deed costs -- if you mean raising the minimum cost, that's different than what you said which implies many deeds becoming cost prohibitive particularly when the ATM...er, HOTA...will readily cover those costs for one kingdom and no others.

 

SOTG + cloth is slightly better than non-SOTG + plate given the two armor sets are of equal quality (see for yourself: http://codehost.tumblr.com/)

 

only downside i see to this is the inability to wear a plate helmet if you want the sotg effect, which means your face is as vulnerable as without armor

 

i personally would probably pvp with sotg and cloth and carry a plateset to throw on if i get targeted so i can protect my face and body in the event that they aim high

Edited by Alexgopen
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the suggestion about increased deed costs would be for founding only, probably a revert back to the 2c per tile vs the current 1c per tile a non prem can place

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4 minutes ago, Zekezor said:

I don't see why all teleportation is removed... if a village isnt under siege, a enemy hasnt been in local for a while and you didnt just log in or cross a server border.... then whats the harm?

You want to promote server travel on a PvP server, so that I can find that guy that crossed over in his drake who daytripped to the PvE server to hunt, instead of him crossing with an alt in a rowboat and safely teleporting to his home deed with karma he bought to avoid all risk.

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15 minutes ago, Retrograde said:

Something that we'll be looking at later down the line when we come to addressing combat!

 

Rising deed costs

The issue with the current cheap deeds is the ability to place a deed and convert, taking all the towers in the area, deeds should be strategic in their placement and not a cheap way to snatch land, raising the prices may not be the right way to go, but there is something that we need to address

Why not just change it so a deed can't be converted for 6 months or so after it was planted? Pretty sure that'd solve it. A real, genuine deed would not be so wishy washy on converting so soon after founding.

 

collapsing houses

Currently houses stay through the use of floors, walls and parapets, the intention of this change will be requiring just the ground floor to be removed, from there the building would collapse and we would not be left with untouchable houses.

I see your point, but then what's the point in using multi story for defense? If a builder put in the work of building every wall on a house on every floor, the ones catapulting it should need to take them all down. I know it's real tedious and hard to do that, that just means another way is needed. Collapsing an entire house just by taking out all the lower walls would be pretty unfair. Why not have it so once the lower walls are down, the upper levels damage easier? This is something we can throw ideas around on.

 

Tower capping.

Currently an easy way around it is simply kiting the guards around while one solo person caps the tower, if the action cannot be interrupted, we could simply require that the guards be killed within the time limit,

Have it so all guards must be killed before the time limit is up, however, make it so no guards will spawn at all during the final minute or two of conquering, to ensure a guard doesnt spawn in the last 5 seconds and ruin the entire capture action unfairly.

 

SotG changes

The ability to change paths to an equal level would be a part of ANY change.

 

again, none of this is set in stone, so please do give actual feedback on WHAT you find is the issue It looks as though SoTG just makes players too powerful. Wurm pvp is ruined by stacked buff after buff and also by overpowered buffs. The numbers just need tweaking downwards some and maybe a weakness added or something so non SoTG players can combat the buffed players somehow. Fairly, for both the SoTG users and the non SoTG. We don't want to make anyone who grinded to gain SoTG feel cheated, this has happened many times in the past.

 

That's also on the cards for discussion, thanks!

 

 

Easier raiding

The counter of this would be mechanics to make sticking around much more difficult, increasing guard difficulty over time or other such features. Any changes to raiding will most likely be longer term, and are simply included here because feedback is always good

Guards are kind of a pushover as is, but I dont think thats an issue. Glad to hear this one is up for long term discussion before any implementation.

 

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2 minutes ago, SkirmishesThreadOnly said:

You want to promote server travel on a PvP server, so that I can find that guy that crossed over in his drake who daytripped to the PvE server to hunt, instead of him crossing with an alt in a rowboat and safely teleporting to his home deed with karma he bought to avoid all risk.

Ah, its a chaos-specific thing, thats why i didnt get it.

Over here on epic we got actual portals to homeservers (aka "hunting servers"/"carebear servers").

But... if he came back to chaos with a rowboat from another server, then the "or cross a server border" condition i mentioned applies.

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The discussion about removing twitter is irrelevant when any middle school kid can write a log parser, log in an alt at a deed and just watch for the event.log message alerting the deed and post that out on twitter/IRC.  The removal of teleport at least prevents the insta-port in of defenders either to the deed or to a nearby deed. 

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8 minutes ago, Alexgopen said:

 

SOTG + cloth is slightly better than non-SOTG + plate given the two armor sets are of equal quality (see for yourself: http://codehost.tumblr.com/)

 

only downside i see to this is the inability to wear a plate helmet if you want the sotg effect, which means your face is as vulnerable as without armor

 

i personally would probably pvp with sotg and cloth and carry a plateset to throw on if i get targeted so i can protect my face and body in the event that they aim high

SOTG - 7months of grinding +2-3s (90ql cloth), plate set - 5-8s for 90 ql. I dont know... Once again, why should I go for SOTG?

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1 minute ago, DrB said:

The discussion about removing twitter is irrelevant when any middle school kid can write a log parser, log in an alt at a deed and just watch for the event.log message alerting the deed and post that out on twitter/IRC.  The removal of teleport at least prevents the insta-port in of defenders either to the deed or to a nearby deed. 

But... if they come from a nearby deed, then they would be exposed and in the open... so whats the issue?

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Just now, DrB said:

The discussion about removing twitter is irrelevant when any middle school kid can write a log parser, log in an alt at a deed and just watch for the event.log message alerting the deed and post that out on twitter/IRC.  The removal of teleport at least prevents the insta-port in of defenders either to the deed or to a nearby deed. 

 

Then a fix for that would need to be written in, as that shouldn't be possible.

 

If a deed is left unattended then the attackers should have free reign of raiding it until someone wakes up and notices.

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Just now, bangzuvelis said:

SOTG - 7months of grinding +2-3s (90ql cloth), plate set - 5-8s for 90 ql. I dont know... Once again, why should I go for SOTG?

cuz you can run 70% faster.

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1 minute ago, Madt said:

 

Then a fix for that would need to be written in, as that shouldn't be possible.

 

If a deed is left unattended then the attackers should have free reign of raiding it until someone wakes up and notices.

lets be real here, all it would do is cause ninja attacks and stealthed alts checking local at deeds.

Its pretty shitty gameplay without the deed warning system since its litterary pve instead of pvp then. (but i wouldnt mind a delay on the warning msg though)

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35 minutes ago, Retrograde said:

Something that we'll be looking at later down the line when we come to addressing combat!

 

collapsing houses

Currently houses stay through the use of floors, walls and parapets, the intention of this change will be requiring just the ground floor to be removed, from there the building would collapse and we would not be left with untouchable houses

 

 

Just fix the bugs and that's good enough. Multistory buildings are a lot of work, they should provide some added defense. What drives people insane is spending the man hours knocking down all the walls on multi story longhouse and having bugged parapets/floors preventing you from removing the structure. Just fix the bugs.

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And one more question: when SOTG will be nerfed to the ground, who/what will counter champs?

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Having a ramping bonus on the meditation levels of Insanity fixed pretty much every issue which is wrong with Gone.
It will allow newer players to compete and work up to the damage reduction without an unnecessarily long barrier, and will promote more pvp serverwide because of this.
Instead of it just being a all or nothing thing, have it ramp.

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