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Retrograde

Upcoming PvP changes

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8 hours ago, Keenan said:

 

 

See the above. I'm using a professional project time table. This is what the AAA companies do, only... you don't see it as players.

 

Alternative. "Screw it! Let's see if this sticks." *commits*

 

it is a good method, but you also must realize these people have already waited many years for the slightest hint of a change.

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12 hours ago, Stormcrow said:

 

Just fix the bugs and that's good enough. Multistory buildings are a lot of work, they should provide some added defense. What drives people insane is spending the man hours knocking down all the walls on multi story longhouse and having bugged parapets/floors preventing you from removing the structure. Just fix the bugs.

If multi story longhouses are no defence there will be less work in building them

12 hours ago, Sharkin said:

Just lower Sotg to about 25% reduction instead of trying to make a new feature out of it.

Also a possibility, I'd rather see meditation add flavour as a whole, but it is clear that it will need addressing down the line as a whole, we do not wish to let sotg continue to dominate pvp requirements in the meantime however.

 

12 hours ago, MrGARY said:

 

35% to match power's potential ability, but with the promise of actually balancing the rest of insanity so we can refer to it as insanity and not gone because insanity could have something else actually useful

 

Like remove clean wound, it's trash.  Move fill to level 4.  Keep random teleport on either level 7 or 9, and pick a new ability for the other

Again, meditation as a whole needs reworking, this is just to address the clear and obvious imbalance

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13 hours ago, Galatyn said:

There is nothing wrong with SotG, but if a change had to be made then let it scale per level as others have suggested.  This will allow new players to receive benefit sooner and allow incentive to reach the Gone goal.

scaling doesnt stop it being overpowered. There's two issues a) its overpowered, and B) it's a hard requirement for effective pvping, this only solves b

 

13 hours ago, Roysta said:

if SotG is too powerful... what about this one?

Intellect of the Enlightened

Gained at level 11

All skillgains are permanently increased by 25%, with the exception of Fighting skill and Faith. Characteristics will also gain this boost

 

it s the same level, so one character - for the same effort put into - gets a permanent bonus, however the other one with SotG merely can use his bonus within a fight, which happens maybe only during less then 5% of your play time...

 

i don't think it should be changed

50% Dr vs 25% skillgain, it's not really the same

 

12 hours ago, SkirmishesThreadOnly said:

Also this, like I can't even make a 50ql longsword because Weaponsmithing is tedious to grind.
Why are they given a decent weapon for free just by starting?
If you're going to give them a 50ql anything it should be small axe, which has been nerfed into the ground by the CR nerf it gives you.
You'd see nobody complaining about giving newbies small axe 50ql, or even probably 70ql.
That thing is useless until someone fixes it.

try fighting with a 50ql longsword, 1fs and 30ql armour, it's not an issue

 

Quote

The first choice is bad, as in really, really bad. If you remove damage reduction from SotG but keep it on Champs, then what is a very old/good skilled champ in scale with smoke of sol and glimmer helm/huge axe? its basically a giant stomping around in a kindergarten.

the second choice will probably just mean they have to back off more often to heal themselves with bandages. the only option would be to remove life transfer heals and spells heals AND bandage heals, which would just mean you could delete shield of the gone from the game anyway.

Once again, it means a champ is a powerhouse at the forefront of fighting, without being simply an equal to sotg fighters

 

Having to back off to heal with bandages would mean an increase in strategy of fighting.

12 hours ago, Arium said:

soooo retro, can we talk about fixing the ridiculously, utterly, completely broken enlightenment again here? you already have the skill so why make it so tedious?

Enlightnement made it too easy to skip paths, meditation takes time, it should be removed entirely not a means of skipping cooldowns

 

 

 

10 hours ago, Entendu said:

I could hit on all your points, but most people have already said what I believe. There are some positives and negatives, but you missed on a major issue with pvp ---- gear. specifically armor.

I’ve been an advocate for making all armor types beneficial on the battlefield. A change to armor bonuses is a must, in my opinion.

PVP right now is a set of plate, shield and weapon. Not much change is needed, there are only negatives to switching from the standard.

I'm sure I don't have the greatest ideas, but something like decreasing swing timers for heavier armor might be beneficial. There are plenty of ideas that could be thrown around, I think a separate thread would be required to gather some suggestions on it.

#leatherarmormatters

 

 

sotg change #1 would make cloth and leather viable, equvilent protection to plate with much more movement speed

 

10 hours ago, Entendu said:

- Make nolocate on bodies work similar to jewellery with power determining % blocked. Cooldowns on searching for same person.

 

Jesus... part I is cool. I don't think anyone should be able to hide. Part  II is just awful depending on the cooldown. 

the cooldown would be something discussed and given prior to implementation

 

10 hours ago, Nadroj said:

When both clusters and both major chaos kingdoms are agreeing on 90% of the points made in a thread and most of that is saying "these are not good ideas" You gotta take that serious xD I'm just holding onto hope that our feedback stops this silliness, there's some hope in some of these ideas and some horror in the rest.

i've seen a few no's to some ideas, raised costs, requiring the person capping the tower to be targetted, embarking on vehicles, and the usual expected flak of any change to sotg, but most of them seem fairly positive

 

9 hours ago, Gregory said:

To get an initial idea of the support for these changes rather then having to read through all the feed back make a poll with a yes/no or (Strongly Disagree, Disagree, Neutral, Agree, Strongly Agree etc) option for each dot point suggestion. If the forums can't do it use a 3rd party survey tool? 

further down the line, this is a public feedback scenario, I want players from all factions to talk openly, I've been through individual kingdom discussions, now is the time for all players to talk together

 

9 hours ago, kujagirl said:

Make destruction of longhouses easier, focus on less tedium when raiding and promote faster raids. -1 I don't find this a good idea at all

raiding should not be a battle against boredom, we need to address mechanics to promote that on both sides, and will most likely be something addressed at a longer timeframe than most of these changes.

 

 

 

8 hours ago, Puertorro said:

Love all the proposed changes.  Thank you for taking action on this matter.

 

I do have to mention to not forget also a way to restart the server.  The proposed changes are great, however, MR already won on Chaos so I dont believe the changes wont change the tide of power at all.  A good solution to restart the game is to have a blank Chaos server connected to the old one in which players can migrate to and start from scratch.  This way, players will be able to transfer items that they would want to bring to the new server with no hassle.  The kingdom mechanics don't even have to change as they can remain in their current kingdom when travelling to the new one to begin building their new capitals.  I believe this way everyone will start with a balanced opportunity to commence building.  This will also promote Freedomers to come to Chaos and start their own Kingdom as well.

A server reset, and a merging is something that is simply not on the cards, that is extreme long term, and we need to address other core concerns within combat and PvP before even putting these ideas on the table, they are out for the foreseeable future

 

8 hours ago, Alexgopen said:

I like the sotg only working in leather/cloth idea, but ONLY IF it's per body part, not requiring a complete set, because with a cloth hood or leather hat your face is asking to get smashed. 

 

Cloth armor + seryll bastinet would be fun

 

right @hemrzz?

Honestly I'd like to see face shots removed entirely for the meantime, they are far too potent and only serve to remove potential armour combinations. Alternatively any helm for sotg could count as a full helm

 

6 hours ago, Gavin said:

 

This is a good point too, quite a few people got 99-100 archery from grinding on oakshelled animals (bulls and horses are the best), it's realistically the only way you can grind the skill, it's not fair to nerf it. If you must keep it like this; please make bison less tanky to archery shots so they can be used for archery grinding (they are useless atm since they glance too much)

Just because something is impossible does not mean it is intended or something that should stay.

 

4 hours ago, GoG said:

It's not unbalanced if EVERYBODY has the choice/ability to reach it.  It's like any other advantage in Wurm, effort = advantage.

yes it is, if its to the point that you require it to be effective

 

7 hours ago, Manik said:

Removing teleport includes the portal from home servers to elevation? If so, I think this would have a negative impact on pvp.

It doesn't include the portals, but teleportation as a whole needs to be addressed

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@Retrograde So when can we expect these changes ? You said in teamspeak the latest mid April for "stage 1"

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22 minutes ago, Egard said:

@Retrograde So when can we expect these changes ? You said in teamspeak the latest mid April for "stage 1"

Pending feedback some changes should start coming in the next few weeks, with the aim for all changes to be FULLY discussed and shared prior to their implementation.

 

nothing will be implemented without discussion and details

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10 hours ago, Zekezor said:

hahahaha.... 2 rounds of challenge and a year of testing eh?

yea ###### that.

 

10 hours ago, Josh said:

a year before changes...? aight see ya

 

This is not a year before changes, but I was extremely adamant that large scale balances would take time, this current discussion is for short time frame changes that allow us to prepare for the longer term large scale changes.

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overall there is some nice changes but in regards to 

 Make destruction of longhouses easier, focus on less tedium when raiding and promote faster raids.

i could see this being the end of chaos soon, the server really needs balanced not giving the aggressor more powers to raid, we want new players on the server and the only way that can happen is if there have a safer place where they have the ability to defend instead of getting steam rolled by large numbers.

 

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"Disable embarking on vehicles or mounts while in combat with an enemy players."

 

 

maybe a embark time? say 20 seconds to embark anything (boats/carts/mounts)

Edited by DannyNG

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1 hour ago, Retrograde said:

yes it is, if its to the point that you require it to be effective

sotg is not a requirement to be effective in pvp you just need to play smarter and more cautious if you don't have it.

 

Also you are speaking like you have lots of pvp experience, I don't think i've ever seen your toon in pvp in the 3-4 years i've been pvping.

Edited by TradingAlt

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Updated the OP with some clarifications and removed some items!

 

29 minutes ago, TradingAlt said:

sotg is not a requirement to be effective in pvp you just need to play smarter and more cautious if you don't have it.

 

Also you are speaking like you have lots of pvp experience, I don't think i've ever seen your toon in pvp in the 3-4 years i've been pvping.

There's always been a vocal group for sotg, but in order to achieve any terms of game balance it needs work.

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20 minutes ago, TradingAlt said:

sotg is not a requirement to be effective in pvp you just need to play smarter and more cautious if you don't have it.

 

Also you are speaking like you have lots of pvp experience, I don't think i've ever seen your toon in pvp in the 3-4 years i've been pvping.

 

 

Sotg became a solid requirement after the introduction of lof cooldowns. Also a logical fallacy there Julie, you may only have pvpd for about a week if you were to clock up all actual combat (but I'm sure you are quite the pve expert).

 

Also you really don't need to be an experienced pvper to see what's broken and what's not. It's just maths provided that it's applied correctly. Do the basic tier cave in to the crying masses and all you'll have is a scenario whereby sotg, smoke of sol, blood of angels, green cherry are  stacked to makeup the difference. Changes little than driving up demand for sorcery items. With sotg as it is you can sit with a posse 2 tiles from an enemy deed hop and not die especially with fo priests on hand 

Make them brittle and non healable beyond cotton and people have to think about how the use the account and where 

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3 hours ago, Aflacduck said:

SotG, and nerfing it will just make Hate and Power the new meta and people will begin to cry because they're getting 1-shot

exactly this, i say no more than month after the change are in we'll see people crying about hate and power.

both of  changes to sotg are lame, just make the bonus 25% and thats it

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25% dmg reduction wont solve anything.. it will still be the only path used

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I'm fine if these patches take a while (not too long) to flesh out AND test on that thing called the test server.

We got to this place because of speedy updates and random nerfs/buffs.

 

Also, questioning Retrograde on his 'PvP credentials' isn't going to get you anywhere or get your 'points' further with anyone.

How do you think he's able to even be on PUBLIC RELATIONS.. lol.  No PvP person should be in PR.

 

What matters is he's listening to everyone right now and trying to come out with the best solutions to the problems, obviously it's not just him making the decision.. but he's sifting through the ideas.

We have a chance to actually give input on what happen and he's reading all of them.

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Also, it's not only the scenario points that is the problem from homeservers, it's the effect it has onto the valrei board, every single mission reduces the gods timer by 12 hours, wether the mission is sac 2 spindles inside your starterdeed or raid an enemy capital, it has the same effect and reward, that's why there's people living on the homeservers just for the missions, it's the most effective way to get valrei items, it's the safest, and it creates very little pvp compared to elevation/enemy homeserver missions

 

reduce the effect of kill x / sac x / do ritual on valrei building heavily on homeservers, or alt. remove the effect + the scenario points it gives entirely

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7 hours ago, MrGARY said:

 

I got 99.53 archery from actual hunting, shooting pets/zombies is just dumb and never felt the urge to do that and always hoped shooting a stationary target without actually hunting would be fixed

 

Oakshell horses are pretty bad.  Can't really say go dispel because often an archery fight can be much much further than dispel range, and the archery fight can/usually determines who wins

and why should oakshell be nerfed again, it's the only good spell besides LOF which other priests has now, and heal, so if oakshell is nerfed it's literally only there for the heal spell.

 

If you want to get rid of it, flank them, and then dispel it.

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1 hour ago, TradingAlt said:

sotg is not a requirement to be effective in pvp you just need to play smarter and more cautious if you don't have it.

 

Also you are speaking like you have lots of pvp experience, I don't think i've ever seen your toon in pvp in the 3-4 years i've been pvping.

sotg IS a requirement to be effective in any pvp where there's more than 2 players involved, if it's anything higher than a 2v2 you'll die in 25 seconds no matter your stats or skills if you don't have sotg/champ.

 

You don't have sotg, you sit in the back, you go in and hit someone once, you're web armored, now you're dead, so you're limited to sitting far back archering or risking it and dying instantly in melee, it's not effective.

 

If it wasn't a requirement, then every single experienced pvper wouldn't be sotg right now, including you.

Edited by changer
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17 hours ago, Retrograde said:

Reworking SotG to only work with Cloth or Leather armour, moving a SotG character to being lighter without sacrificing protection (being slightly more than steel plate, but lower than scale/moon plate) yet not be the current tank that it is.

 

good idea but i think it would be a little underpowered. maybe this + you are not slowed by hurting status 

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Just now, DannyNG said:

 

good idea but i think it would be a little underpowered. maybe this + you are not slowed by hurting status 

if you include both protection and no hurt status it would be op.

18km/h with no hurt status would let people run away from plate while stunned.

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Why just focus on Shield of the Gone? If you're going to reduce its effectiveness, you need to rework other paths too...specifically hate. Path of Hate needs tweaking. Rage (increased dmg) and Spell Immunity need to be swapped.

 

Level 4 - Rage [Structure Damage] -  Structure damage increase for 15 minutes, 18 hr cooldown. No change required

Level 7 - Spell Immunity - Protection against offensive spells, does not protect from AoE Spells. - Change this to a timed spell, similar to structure damage.

Level 9 - Fear - Protection for 3 minutes from NPCs. No change required.

Level 11 - Charge of the Fury (Rage II)- 25% Damage Increase

 

 

 

Edited by Entendu
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2 minutes ago, Entendu said:

Why just focus on Shield of the Gone? If you're going to reduce its effectiveness, you need to rework other paths too...specifically hate. Path of Hate needs tweaking. Rage (increased dmg) and Spell Immunity need to be swapped.

 

Level 4 - Rage [Structure Damage] -  Structure damage increase for 15 minutes, 18 hr cooldown. No change required

Level 7 - Spell Immunity - Protection against offensive spells, does not protect from AoE Spells. - Change this to a timed spell, similar to structure damage.

Level 9 - Fear - Protection for 3 minutes from NPCs. No change required.

Level 11 - Charge of the Fury - 25% Damage Increase

 

 

 

 

Because max stacking damage and damage reduction buffs is idiotic at best. Just have lv 11 hate ignore all spells and it becomes interesting (read as immune to spells target, aoe, buff and heal). 

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  •     Remove Information minister.
    • Add more titles and functions rather than removing them. Change the "... entered your territory..." so it only appears if tower guards die or hit the enemy.
  •     Remove all teleportation forms on PvP servers (including home servers).
    • No.
  •     Remove archery penalties or scale according to individual armour pieces.
    • Face protection could still be kept to make it harder to aim but it should really not matter if I got my pants on or not...
  •     Disable embarking on vehicles or mounts while in combat with an enemy players.
    • Like some one mentioned earlier, one arrow and you are stuck. Perhaps make a time based penalty when embarking instead.
  •     Addition of Archery keybinds.
    • Sure but first change so that you don't need the bow activated to shoot, equipped should be enough.
  •     Remove stun/throw from valrei mobs.
    • Stun is broken and throw is really just a teleportation. Fix both and keep em in game.
  •     Make nolocate on bodies work similar to jewellery with power determining % blocked. Cooldowns on searching for same person.
  •     Creation of a “verbose” combat tab option, including extra information such as Area of Effect spells, Direct target spells,     karma and meditation buffs, etc
    • +1 and make tabs detachable
  •     Scale scenario point rewards according to mission type (sacrifice, drain, traitor, tree) then modified by whether server is friendly, enemy, or elevation
    • Does not affect me as a chaos player.
  •     Make uniques focus points of missions, or giving kingdom based rewards for slaying
    • More rewarding why not.
  •     Change battle rank to only be given through kills, not through missions or capping towers/camps
    • -1
  •     Make chaos and possibly home server merchants tauntable
    • +1
  •     Remove speed bonus from logged off alts on boats on  PvP servers
    • +1 and make the quality of the boat to increase the max speed instead.
  •     Have tower guards target whoever is trying to capture the tower. Require killing of guards before tower is captured. Removal of action timer and requiring a certain amount of guards killed within a ten minute timeframe
    • No to the targeting of whoever is capturing the tower. All guards should be dead before tower converted though
  • SotG
    • its fine as it is.
  • HotA
    • No change needed.
  • Oakshell
    • Works fine as is
  • Reinforcement
    • Walls and reinforcement should be harder to get rid of until you drained the token. Then they could become like styrofoam.
Edited by Pingvinen

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6 hours ago, SmeJack said:

    Remove all teleportation forms on PvP servers (including home servers).


Then you have the issue of people leaving local and using karma/twig/stone to escape the pvp because they dipped local for 5 seconds. Happened to you guys when you caught me/awardis/aus/permo/teal and Awardis used his insanity teleport to random teleport once you left local for 1 second, for an example among many from all kingdoms. 

The idea behind removing teleportation is to also boost traveling, if you live at a certain deed then you'll care more about getting a group to travel to it since you'll likley have items there.
And any war deed that is frontline and getting action WILL have people part of that village already, even if they stay at the capital, so CD is ineffective 100%. 

The only reason people want to keep teleportation, especially on Chaos, is because they have deeds far away or have to travel through a dangerous area to get to it because the tower system allowed them to put one in the middle of an enemy kingdom with no support/infrastructure of getting there safely/without meeting resistance so the safest method is teleportation. Coming from the deed owner of Failujah/Crimea where we never karam'd in and traveled via our built roads, once being cut off/met with resistance from rome local before even reaching it, it produces more pvp than what karmaing into a safe-hop does, which is one of the focuses of the overall updates, increased player vs player. 


 

Edited by Mclovin
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Entendu - Why just focus on Shield of the Gone? If you're going to reduce its effectiveness, you need to rework other paths too...specifically hate. Path of Hate needs tweaking. 


Agree, leather armor against path or hate idk lol.

Also, path of hate can be dispelled right now - so change that and tweak lower

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19 hours ago, Retrograde said:

Feel free to provide feedback on which scenario you'd prefer to see, either of these changes will also come with the ability to swap from Path of Insanity to another path with no cooldown.


I cannot thank you guys enough for this. Thanks for keeping my suggestion in mind. Yes we need a direct change in path without any wait because of this new change. Just a thing, if player feedback is poor to these changes, and something gets reverted, hopefully a way to go back to the same path or something (in case some more changes are made based on future feedback).

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