Retrograde

Upcoming PvP changes

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Over the past two months I've sat down and talked with various kingdoms and factions in PvP, both on Epic and Chaos. Over the course of that time I have collected large amounts of feedback regarding issues within PvP and Wurm, and condensed that feedback for discussion with the development team.


It's clear that Epic and Chaos, while both PvP servers face different challenges, what benefits one server may have little to no effect on another, so there's always the effort to ensure that balance is achieved across both clusters.


The following is a list of changes planned for the short term, with a longer term overhaul of combat, meditation and priests being planned for later in the year. This list is by no means complete, and the aim of this thread is for open discussion on the upcoming changes.


As always, please keep it civil, regardless of what kingdom you are from, we all seek to make PvP more enjoyable in Wurm, so avoid bashing other players or kingdoms.

 

This is a Feature feedback thread, that means please provide actual feedback, negative comments or comments with zero input will be removed.
Changes

  •     Remove expanded Information minister functions "x enters your territory"
  •     Remove all teleportation forms on PvP servers (including home servers).
  •     Remove archery penalties or scale according to individual armour pieces.
  •     Disable embarking on vehicles or mounts while in combat with an enemy players.
  •     Addition of Archery keybinds.
  •     Remove stun/throw from valrei mobs.
  •     Make nolocate on bodies work similar to jewellery with power determining % blocked. Cooldowns on searching for same person.
  •  
  •     Creation of a “verbose” combat tab option, including extra information such as Area of Effect spells, Direct target spells,     karma and meditation buffs, etc
  •     Scale scenario point rewards according to mission type (sacrifice, drain, traitor, tree) then modified by whether server is friendly, enemy, or elevation
  •     Make uniques focus points of missions, or giving kingdom based rewards for slaying
  •     Change battle rank to only be given through kills, not through missions or capping towers/camps
  •     Make chaos and possibly home server merchants tauntable
  •     Remove speed bonus from logged off alts on boats on  PvP servers
  •     Have tower guards target whoever is trying to capture the tower. Require killing of guards before tower is captured. Removal of action timer and requiring a certain amount of guards killed within a ten minute timeframe

 

Shield of the Gone

SotG has been a long term issue with PvPers, and it is quite clear that it is too powerful in its current state.We currently have two proposed changes, which are listed below:

  • Reworking SotG to only work with Cloth or Leather armour, moving a SotG character to being lighter without sacrificing protection (being slightly more than steel plate, but lower than scale/moon plate) yet not be the current tank that it is.

 

  • Alternatively, remove the ability to heal from Life Transfer and all healing spells. This moves the SotG character into a strong fighter in a short melee, but in drawn out conflicts becomes very fragile.


Feel free to provide feedback on which scenario you'd prefer to see, either of these changes will also come with the ability to swap from Path of Insanity to another path with no cooldown.

 

 

Other changes that have not yet been discussed include

  • Removal of oakshell from mounts (player targets only).
  • Resistance to healing spells/cooldown.
  • HotA changes.
  • Many many more, feel free to ask about them!

 

When providing feedback, for the sake of clarity and easier cataloging, please provide which server you play on, if you play on both feel free to say so, but also indicate your main server.

 

A lot of mechanics may be delayed until we have a longer time frame to address balancing across a whole range of issues, such as priests, all meditation paths, weapons, armour, stats and combat in general. The initial aim is to improve PvP in the short term, and then address more balancing issues with a way of testing them out thoroughly, challenge round 3 is quite possible....

 

Update

 

 

The old saying is no plan survives contact with the enemy, and it's much the same in Wurm. Some of these changes we will need to pull back to the drawing board, but I'm thrilled with the amount that have widespread support

 

Of the changes that have mostly negative feedback, we'll pull those from the list along with a further explanation of what the aim is to achieve with them. This doesn't mean they are gone, but we will be looking at addressing the concerns mentioned.
 

Quote

 

    Raise deed costs on PvP servers to limit expansion by simply placing multiple deeds to conquer towers

 

 

The way current deed mechanics work is something we plan on addressing, though this may need to come with a later update

 

Quote

    Make destruction of longhouses easier, focus on less tedium when raiding and promote faster raids.

again, this needs to be part of a total raiding and combat overhaul, it's added here to gauge feedback early on, as well to get players thinking about how it could change.

 

Quote

    Remove disintegration requiring token drain and remove magranon bonus.

 

Nothing in PvP should be safe, safemines and other defences aimed at wasting time vs active defending need to be reworked, raiding windows is something that has been suggested as well, though again, all a little down the track

 

 

Other issues such as cooldowns on locate casts are aimed at avoiding locating being a simple matter of spamming, it defeats the purpose of the no locate ability.

 

Capturing towers could be more than just an action timer, requiring killing x amount of guards within a timeframe, requiring staying within x distance of the tower while doing so. Vs the current someone caps the tower while others have the guards chase them for ten minutes

 

Embarking on vehicles is to stop the easy vehicle hopping raised by many players, perhaps a short timer or something allowing players to stop it, the disabling would only be during melee combat with an enemy player, not a mob or enemy kingdom npc.

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body strengths health gain should give more at lower levels and less at higher levels

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remove friendly homeserver missions giving scenario points and decreasing the god move timer but keep the karma reward. you completely missed the point of easy missions decreasing the god move timer which was biggest problem.

Edited by dingov

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19 minutes ago, Retrograde said:
  •     Remove stun/throw from valrei mobs.

This also makes valrei mobs make sense on pve

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These are bad. Very bad.

 

  •     Remove Information minister. +1 Tower bashing is fine imo, everything else needs to go.
  •     Remove all teleportation forms on PvP servers (including home servers). Excessive. Just remove the karma village teleport.. don't need to go nuclear.
  •     Remove archery penalties or scale according to individual armour pieces. Remove no, scale yes.
  •     Disable embarking on vehicles or mounts while in combat with an enemy players. No. Someone please fill me in on how this is needed. Why shouldn't someone be able to hop on a wagon at dying and ride away?
  •     Addition of Archery keybinds. +1
  •     Remove stun/throw from valrei mobs. +1 to remove stun/ +0 throw
  •     Make nolocate on bodies work similar to jewellery with power determining % blocked. Cooldowns on searching for same person. +0
  •     Remove disintegration requiring token drain and remove magranon bonus. No. Yes to removing Mag bonus but I'm probably biased on that bit.
  •     Creation of a “verbose” combat tab option, including extra information such as Area of Effect spells, Direct target spells,     karma and meditation buffs, etc +1
  •     Raise deed costs on PvP servers to limit expansion by simply placing multiple deeds to conquer towers No. This doesn't address the underlying issue and creates so many more.
  •     Scale scenario point rewards according to mission type (sacrifice, drain, traitor, tree) then modified by whether server is friendly, enemy, or elevation +0
  •     Make uniques focus points of missions, or giving kingdom based rewards for slaying +0
  •     Change battle rank to only be given through kills, not through missions or capping towers/camps +1
  •     Make destruction of longhouses easier, focus on less tedium when raiding and promote faster raids. No.
  •     Make chaos and possibly home server merchants tauntable. No.
  •     Remove speed bonus from logged off alts on boats on  PvP servers. +1
  •     Have tower guards target whoever is trying to capture the tower. Require killing of guards before tower is captured. No. Am I missing something? Wont respawns just go after the person caping and interrupt them every time? Seems like a nightmare.

 

Honestly, between removing disintegration and weakening longhouses, you will see the death of Chaos. The last few non MR hold outs wont even be able to defend or recover from an assault.

Edited by Stormcrow

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From my point of view, this all make sense and would get me back to Chaos for sure.

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1 minute ago, Yesirn said:

   Raise deed costs on PvP servers to limit expansion by simply placing multiple deeds to conquer towers

 

Is this a joke?

like what dev thought it would be a good idea?

All this does is promote P2W... Cuz the people with money will keep throwing out money and those without will simply have less deeds.

what the hell.

 

"Resistance to healing spells/cooldown. "

Yea good job at completely ignoring the more proper ways to fix healing in combat that were suggested...

 

 

   Make nolocate on bodies work similar to jewellery with power determining % blocked. Cooldowns on searching for same person.

What is this supposed cooldown? nolo is a insanely easy spell to cast... if its a 95 cast its gonna be on average 10 min to get through if its merely a 30sec cooldown... which is the time it takes to move across half the length of the server on a hellhorse....

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5 minutes ago, Brunwulf said:

Both suggested SOTG changes are dumb.

This, you just killed SoTG. Its worht 0 now, i hope you guys give a free path change with it. This is ridicolous.

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These don't.. seem all too bad..

 

Have tower guards target whoever is trying to capture the tower. Require killing of guards before tower is captured.

^

This one though, are you saying when guards spawn they go straight for the person trying to cap the tower?  And after the 10 minutes have gone by, if all the guards are dead, then it caps?

It makes sense, but.. if you're hit while capping a tower and say 5 guards spawn at once, it has a chance every time you are hit to stop the timer.

 

I don't even think tower capping should be in the game, but don't make it impossible D:

 

  •     Change battle rank to only be given through kills, not through missions or capping towers/camps

 Darn, no more Hotamasters and Missionmasters.. 

:(

 

 

Also, lol

Spoiler

[11:44:30] Meditating increased by 0.0377 to 68.3341

 

Edited by Oreo

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29 minutes ago, Retrograde said:

We currently have two proposed changes, which are listed below

 

this isnt final dudes :3

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Just now, Quicktor said:

 

this isnt final dudes :3

Thats why we complain while we can affect the outcome.

Edited by Zekezor

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Epic player here

  •     Remove Information minister. - I hope it's not the office, just the enemy entered your land gimmick.
  •     Remove all teleportation forms on PvP servers (including home servers). - Yes please. I liked traveling, I liked having outposts in dangerous territory. Very nostalgic feelings about this.
  •     Remove archery penalties or scale according to individual armour pieces. - Yes!
  •     Disable embarking on vehicles or mounts while in combat with an enemy players. - I'm not sure what this entails? But just reading it i can see it would not only create a lot of bug abusal scenarios, but could break boat PvP. Needs more specifics but i don't think this is a good idea.
  •     Addition of Archery keybinds. - Sounds good.
  •     Remove stun/throw from valrei mobs. - Excellent, they were the cause of many issues.
  •     Make nolocate on bodies work similar to jewellery with power determining % blocked. Cooldowns on searching for same person. - Excellent, once more.
  •     Remove disintegration requiring token drain and remove magranon bonus. - Excellent!
  •     Creation of a “verbose” combat tab option, including extra information such as Area of Effect spells, Direct target spells,     karma and meditation buffs, etc - you're speaking to my heart. :^)
  •     Raise deed costs on PvP servers to limit expansion by simply placing multiple deeds to conquer towers - I like this, it worked in the past, although, in the past we didn't have towercapping. Ill elaborate on this later in the post.
  •     Scale scenario point rewards according to mission type (sacrifice, drain, traitor, tree) then modified by whether server is friendly, enemy, or elevation - I like this, i also like the suggestion you brought up to me in TS about this too.
  •     Make uniques focus points of missions, or giving kingdom based rewards for slaying - Not really good or bad, would be cool to go kill a dragon on a homeserver and get more than just the loot though.
  •     Change battle rank to only be given through kills, not through missions or capping towers/camps - I like this, should also slow down the rate of decay a bit though too. Might need tweaking if you do that.
  •     Make destruction of longhouses easier, focus on less tedium when raiding and promote faster raids. - Need specifics, but sounds good.
  •     Make chaos and possibly home server merchants tauntable - Widely suggested.
  •     Remove speed bonus from logged off alts on boats on  PvP servers - Seems more like an old bug than a feature, but sure.
  •     Have tower guards target whoever is trying to capture the tower. Require killing of guards before tower is captured. - This would make towercapping nigh impossible. If you just removed towercapping and then upped deed costs slightly i think you would have a much more fluid campaign feel for land like we used to have. The higher deed costs used to prevent gatehop deeds everywhere, and the lack of towercapping made towerblocking deeds nonexistant.

 

other than that it looks great. The only thing i'm kinda bummed about is not having the twitter system scrapped.

 

17 minutes ago, Zekezor said:

like what dev thought it would be a good idea?

All this does is promote P2W... Cuz the people with money will keep throwing out money and those without will simply have less deeds.

what the hell.

 

I personally suggested this idea, the deed cost one as back in the day when deeds costed a lot, this wardeed trend never happened (there were other reasons such as no towercapping, which i mentioned). There were probably other ways to fix the same problem.

 

 

The SOTG changes, i feel like this should be something tested on challenge. Put it up for like a three month period, make everyone start with SOTG. Have a new mechanic for SOTG for the span of two weeks or something and at the end let people vote on which mechanic they liked most. Advertise the testing and maybe give out some cool rewards and i think you will make a lot more progress here with a lot more happy people. That being said, I do honestly hope it just gets flat out removed.

 

 

 

Also, don't be so vile. A lot of people asked for a lot of this stuff and it was posted beforehand so we could actually give feedback as to why each one would be good or bad, you don't have to call him an idiot to get your point across when hes just trying to please the larger community.

 

Edited by Propheteer

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For SOTG:

Why not just keep sotg the way it is, and make it scale by level to 50% at gone.

You can also make meditation ticks 100%

and do the same for all other path's and buff other paths a little more

 

Conquering Towers:

If you're gunna do that, it's going to nearly impossible and a stupid idea. Might as well remove capturing towers all together.

 

Also no twitter removal from deeds?

 

 

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  •     Remove Information minister. - Be clear, i hope you mean remove the "enemy entered your territory" not the whole office. Too many offices do nothing.
  •     Remove all teleportation forms on PvP servers (including home servers). - Even twigs? Why? There's lots of restrictions on them already, tweaks to how karma teleport works are needed not a 100% removal of a feature.
  •     Remove archery penalties or scale according to individual armour pieces. - Just remove the penalties, i don't even understand why we have penalties to using archery. This is good to remove.
  •     Disable embarking on vehicles or mounts while in combat with an enemy players. - Yes, silly things like hopping on a cart and getting pulled away when at dying is rather stupid.
  •     Addition of Archery keybinds. -Yes please
  •     Remove stun/throw from valrei mobs. - Yes please
  •     Make nolocate on bodies work similar to jewellery with power determining % blocked. Cooldowns on searching for same person. - Sounds reasonable, its pretty damn powerful atm but explain what you mean by cooldowns?
  •     Remove disintegration requiring token drain and remove magranon bonus. - Fair enough, might need to talk this one over a bit with folks.
  •     Creation of a “verbose” combat tab option, including extra information such as Area of Effect spells, Direct target spells,     karma and meditation buffs, etc - Long time needed to get better information in combat window
  •     Raise deed costs on PvP servers to limit expansion by simply placing multiple deeds to conquer towers - Exact information please? This is a big change that affects a lot of people and a lot of deeds
  •     Scale scenario point rewards according to mission type (sacrifice, drain, traitor, tree) then modified by whether server is friendly, enemy, or elevation - n/a to me on chaos i'll let others field it
  •     Make uniques focus points of missions, or giving kingdom based rewards for slaying - I imagine won't affect chaos?
  •     Change battle rank to only be given through kills, not through missions or capping towers/camps - Then are we doing away with the decay? the old system for rank was better imo
  •     Make destruction of longhouses easier, focus on less tedium when raiding and promote faster raids. - Sounds like a good idea in principle but we need to talk specifics
  •     Make chaos and possibly home server merchants tauntable - yes please
  •     Remove speed bonus from logged off alts on boats on  PvP servers - yes please
  •     Have tower guards target whoever is trying to capture the tower. Require killing of guards before tower is captured. - Good god no! JUST NO!! Guard tower capturing is impossible when the guards attack the one capturing, one hit can interrupt the attempt. The current mechanic is fine, it spams guards and gives the enemy both time and opportunity to assault the cappers with the aid of the waves of guards. This change will make tower capturing impossible and take the human element of defending them out of play.

As for SotG i pray you do not use either of these two options presented to solve the issue. I agree that SotG is the most powerful of the paths fora person who pvps. There is no doubt of this. While the other paths have other uses. However if you look at all of the level 11 abilities none of them have a downside except SotG already. My opinion and that of many others is that this downside is neglible but it still stands to reason that it's strange to have one power have downsides but none of the others do. You need to balance the paths not nerf one into the ground or make the ones who use it have to accept some nasty penalty. It's just not the way to go about this at all!

I can't tell you what is the best way to balance it, though i'm certainly trying to think a decent one up right now to give you anything to do except this. If you do this then Power will become the new "OP meta omg tonnes of stamina". Or Love "omg i can heal ANYTHING" or knowledge "lol i can get to 90+ combat skills so easy" or hate "haha noone can cast spells on me".

As it stands SotG is best and the others are good for their own reasons but not the best, they all have no downside. If you add a downside or penalty to one you plummet it into being the worst and unbalance it against the others. Especially when we take into account that all of the paths have decent, useful, usable abilities except insanity which has only that one.

 

My opinion is that SotG damage reduction isn't the issue so much as the general ease with which an account that doesn't have that much damage reduction can be killed. Look into that before you nerf things.


Edit- I agree with MrGary about the embarking change, didn't think through the issue with boat combat i was thinking more about a recent event in which i saw an enemy at dying escape by hopping on a cart and driving through a door at top speed.

Edited by Nadroj

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Just now, Carmichael said:

Also no twitter removal from deeds?

 

 

all that would do is generate a ton of middle-of-the-night ninja attacks >_>

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What about Insanity Teleport on the whole.. 'no teleporting on pvp servers'?

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  •     Remove Information minister.  Don't think anyone has to say anything here, widely supported  Edit: as Nadroj stated keep the offices for seeing offices obviously
  •     Remove all teleportation forms on PvP servers (including home servers).  Not a fan of removing all, I've used most karma home/recall home in entirely not pvp/danger situations.  Just disallow teleporting to the deed without being a villager for 24hrs to a week or whatever
  •     Remove archery penalties or scale according to individual armour pieces.  Remove penalty entirely +1
  •     Disable embarking on vehicles or mounts while in combat with an enemy players.  Ummm how is this a good idea, it basically destroys boat pvp in horrible ways and removes the option of backup horses, unless I'm reading this wrong?  Even if it's specifically combat window open only block I can't see it being good -1
  •     Addition of Archery keybinds.  No problem here, since it's already been possible by selectbar
  •     Remove stun/throw from valrei mobs.  Please at the very least for throwing
  •     Make nolocate on bodies work similar to jewellery with power determining % blocked. Cooldowns on searching for same person.  Yes, but elaborate on the cooldowns? 
  •     Remove disintegration requiring token drain and remove magranon bonus.  Never been a fan of making it easier to destroy/steal everything anyone owns so -1, but +1 to removing Mag's bonus so all priests are equal there
  •     Creation of a “verbose” combat tab option, including extra information such as Area of Effect spells, Direct target spells,     karma and meditation buffs, etc    Qol, sure
  •     Raise deed costs on PvP servers to limit expansion by simply placing multiple deeds to conquer towers  Sorry...what...?  It's way too easy to capture towers so the fix is to make everything cost more money?  No thanks not every kingdom has moneybanks or willing to invest more into Wurm to cover a broken mechanic
  •     Scale scenario point rewards according to mission type (sacrifice, drain, traitor, tree) then modified by whether server is friendly, enemy, or elevation   +1 to scaling per mission difficulty so it actually makes sense.  Enemy home server missions can usually be very safe considering all things especially how they are going now and always have been, so I would only give Elevation a bonus so as to give more reason to be on Elevation, it's the main pvp server afterall and this is what we are trying to fix yes
  •     Make uniques focus points of missions, or giving kingdom based rewards for slaying  What does this mean?  Uniques already can become traitors to slay and have been killed already
  •     Change battle rank to only be given through kills, not through missions or capping towers/camps  +1, but we should fully go back to how it was in the old days.  Only gain is killing, only loss is dying.  Decay if you haven't been logged in for a week/month(?) to prevent old inactives from being on display
  •     Make destruction of longhouses easier, focus on less tedium when raiding and promote faster raids.  Nope.  Fix bugs sure if there are, but we should never promote faster raiding.  Look what is happening on Chaos
  •     Make chaos and possibly home server merchants tauntable   +1 to Chaos, -1 to home servers.  There are plenty of legit merchants on home servers and any banks will just be moved onto a hidden place in a strong deed, so it's only hurting legit sellers
  •     Remove speed bonus from logged off alts on boats on  PvP servers   +1, this is a bug more than anything else
  •     Have tower guards target whoever is trying to capture the tower. Require killing of guards before tower is captured.  If guards target the capper, then the cap will never ever complete since it's so easy to get interupted.  Just leave it where there's x amount of time after the cap is over to kill the guards before it's actually finished.  If it's just killing guards then 3 people can kite guards for 10 minutes, cap tower, then take however long they need to kill the guards.  So like, 2-5 minutes after the cap is finished to kill guards

As for these sotg changes I dunno.  Neither are balance they're just outright making it 100% useless, if that's the goal here?  Someone in 90ql leather with sotg has less dr than someone without sotg in 85ql seryll

 

Edit: And where are the nerfs to healing?

Edited by MrGARY

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Alternatively, remove the ability to heal from Life Transfer and all healing spells. This moves the SotG character into a strong fighter in a short melee, but in drawn out conflicts becomes very fragile.

 

This is probably the better choice of two

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You're also missing a need for a change to alt abuse on Chaos. Could i suggest a limit on number of times an account can spawn at any one deed apart from it's capital city. This would stop people spamming free alts to run into enemy groups for free intel when being raided. Personally i think everything worked a lot better before we had the 20fs requirement to gain rank/fs/affins and non prems on the server. Back in the days when this was the way things were people didn't spam their alts at the enemy because simply, they would get yelled at by their own friends for feeding the enemy rank and affinities. Make it only apply to freedom if you think people would abuse it, or make the server premium only again but for gods sake deal with the alts please.

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I forgot to mention with the deed cost up, if this goes through

 

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE MAKE SURE PLAYERS ARE AWARE OF HOW MUCH IT WILL GO UP BEFOREHAND FOR BOTH CLUSTERS!!!!

 

 

a LOT of capitol deeds are s50 or bigger with a lot of guards and a lot of them sit under a month of upkeep! Add in a PSA ingame or something.

Edited by Propheteer

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i suggest shield of the gone use your life to absorb damage of a friendly character for  up to 30 seconds while at least 1 tile away, with a 30 min cool down. 

 

edit to add: not being able to embark a boat in melee combat is one thing but not being able to mount your back up horse is asking a bit much.

Edited by Aetherion

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Removal of oakshell from mounts means we also can't oakshell pets or archery grinding targets.  

 

For SOTG, I like the idea of a SOTG tank in cloth/leather better than being unable to heal them.  You suggest the healing change option means they're strong in short-term melee but what it really means is just that SOTG becomes target #1 versus what we have now.  That being said, I'm not sure making SOTG + leather ~ plate isn't too far.  Perhaps adjusting it to SOTG + cloth = just above steel, +leather/chain/plate = no effect, +dragon/moon = some added physical damage debuff?    SOTG + dragon/moon should remain superior or you've completely flipped the gearing of the SOTGs.

 

Can't embark in combat could be nasty.  It makes entering combat a "to the death" event. Think about that from a raid standpoint..one arrow, and you're stuck if you came by boat.

 

If tower guards aggro the capper, how will that not just end the cap at every guard spawn?  I think if you require all guards dead to finish the cap, the way they aggro on spawn doesn't need to change.

 

Deed costs -- if you mean raising the minimum cost, that's different than what you said which implies many deeds becoming cost prohibitive particularly when the ATM...er, HOTA...will readily cover those costs for one kingdom and no others.

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