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Pottis

Change SOTG + poll

I agree SOTG needs some serious changes  

74 members have voted

  1. 1. Sotg needs some serious changes



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6 minutes ago, Etherdrifter said:

Why not just buff PoH to take out SotG players?  So the further along the path of hate you are the more damage you do to players with SotG (eventually capping out at doing 10% extra damage against them and ignoring SoTG).  This would create a simple triangle with PoL > PoH > PoI > PoL.

So you would rather create another OP option to counter another?

 

POH was nerfed once before for a reason.

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I know there are so many people who didn't have sotg and now do. Answer this, how did it feel to pvp without it before when people you are fighting do? I have done this and it feels terrible, you know that you can die so quick and the enemy won't if they have it. If you're the only guy in the group which a few people I have been with, you know you're going to be the focus as it's an easy kill. These same feelings of being so weak relative to others will definitely be present in new people coming into pvp. It really isn't even hard to tell if someone is sotg as you just hit them and look at the damage you dealt, it is that obvious due to the sheer amount of damage difference you do to a non-sotg account compared to the sotg player. How are you ever going to gain new people to play on pvp in good amounts when sotg is stopping them from doing so? Pvp is losing older players and has been for a while and it won't really gain too many with the way it is now with sotg being not just an advantage but a huge limitation and need. Change is needed.

 

Cut all the crap about it "took me time to get this, don't take it away from me". It's such a weak argument against the whole idea as time doing something never equals an entitlement to it. That's like me saying I got banned but I played the game for a decade and put time and effort into it so don't ban me. Or that I spent years building my village, it should never be allowed to be raided or disbanded as I put all this time into it. Perhaps how long it takes to make a drake/scale set by collecting pieces only on your main account, does that really mean you should never be allowed to lose it as it took you so long to complete? See how petty an argument that time invested means you deserve it? Time doesn't mean anything in this case. And guess what takes literally no skill and only time, meditation.

 

The whole argument for if sotg is nerfed then everyone will be two shot. Guess what, new players look forward to this every single time they pvp so you literally just said everything that is wrong with the whole sotg situation right now. And I feel that it would be an issue if sotg was nerfed/removed. I feel that the progressive system has some merit but I also feel it still creates a big gap between a new player/non-insanity path player. The fairest solution is to look at increasing all base damage reduction or health for people. This stops the whole argument of why sotg should exist right now. The combat system needs to evolve not stay stagnant and boring being a major cause of people leaving. But all these rubbish arguments people keep bringing up delaying that progress that is needed to bring in new blood and bring back old players of the game. This is exactly like changes people claimed to hate in the past due to group mentality. One big example that comes to mind, due to how recent it was, is Red's post on changes to Chaos, MR players hopped aboard the train to change despite in the not so distance past were super negative about similar changes to key points of his arguments. Please don't tell me this sort of thing is happening again as further delays to crucial changes cause more people to think about quitting every day and it sure doesn't seem to be bringing in more than you're losing.

 

So what other bad arguments do you have about why something OP like sotg should not be nerfed?

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9 hours ago, Pottis said:

When I first started to play this game in beta everything was somewhat balanced and fine, and FUN. Now it became something else and sadly it continues on that road.

 

When the game was in beta, didn't everyone have about the same skill level since the game was new?  This game has been out so long that the longtime pvp players have 90+ fighting, shield, and weapon skills,  body strength around 50+, etc.  It's a mature game now.  How can their be a balance between long time players who worked hard to earn their high skills and new players starting the game?  I don't understand why there should even be a balance.  Seems like it would remove the incentive to train up fighting skills and body stats.

 

 

Edited by Galatyn
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6 minutes ago, Galatyn said:

 

When the game was in beta, didn't everyone have about the same skill level since the game was new?  This game has been out so long that the longtime pvp players have 90+ fighting, shield, and weapon skills,  body strength around 50+, etc.  It's a completely different mature game now.  What would happen if the meditation paths were removed?  Would people then complain that those with almost maxed fighting skills are too OP and somehow that should be nerfed, as well?  

 

 

 

Has happened before, fight fix so get good kid. Only nowadays rolf isn't willing to touch anything so we are at the opposite end of the previous intervention system which is just as detrimental to the game

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9 minutes ago, Galatyn said:

 

When the game was in beta, didn't everyone have about the same skill level since the game was new?  This game has been out so long that the longtime pvp players have 90+ fighting, shield, and weapon skills,  body strength around 50+, etc.  It's a completely different mature game now.  What would happen if the meditation paths were removed?  Would people then complain that those with almost maxed fighting skills are too OP and somehow that should be nerfed, as well?  

 

 

 

no, not at all lol.

 

you had plenty of the big name assblasters, its just back then you had options to everything that were decent (excluding the fact the actual fighting system had a lot of nuances, e.g. hitting shield arm hurt block chance), now its

 

"get plate, get sotg, use a shield, stack as many valrei items and cr buffs as you can, and sit 2 tiles outside of a gatehop pretending my kingdom is good at the game"

 

the account did less work than the player back then, now the account does about 99% of the work.

 

 

 

but w/e i'm sure nothing is wrong when the people that are quitting is telling you what they think is wrong with the game and why they quit. :rolleyes:

Edited by Propheteer
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Proph, I respect your knowledge and experience in the game, but I have to disagree with you about the account doing 99% of the work.  Granted, people who invest their time in skilling should have the edge against a new player in a really small skirmish, but the account itself is not the limiting factor in every scenario.  I've seen several videos of how the intellect and strategy of the players working together have achieved the goal, independent of the account strength (where the accounts are all about equal).  For example, demolition of Sparta, MR ambushing Davy as he went to charge Sword of Mag at the Altar of Three, HoTS killing of JK King Nightfall in Gestalt Bay, and even the recent JK raid on HoTS citadel where video shows HOTS outnumbered, but still killing more JK.  I'm sure there are many more instances out there.  

 

Sparta raid:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wq-R0qaNFs0

 

JK Davy and Sword of Mag:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0ZEOXAQYhY

 

HoTS killing JK King Nightfall:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67u9SgALzBM

 

JK attacking HoTS citadel:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4r0kfiXrGGs&feature=youtu.be

 

 

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3 hours ago, Galatyn said:

 

When the game was in beta, didn't everyone have about the same skill level since the game was new?  This game has been out so long that the longtime pvp players have 90+ fighting, shield, and weapon skills,  body strength around 50+, etc.  It's a mature game now.  How can their be a balance between long time players who worked hard to earn their high skills and new players starting the game?  I don't understand why there should even be a balance.  Seems like it would remove the incentive to train up fighting skills and body stats.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Galatyn said:

Proph, I respect your knowledge and experience in the game, but I have to disagree with you about the account doing 99% of the work.  Granted, people who invest their time in skilling should have the edge against a new player in a really small skirmish, but the account itself is not the limiting factor in every scenario.  I've seen several videos of how the intellect and strategy of the players working together have achieved the goal, independent of the account strength (where the accounts are all about equal).  For example, demolition of Sparta, MR ambushing Davy as he went to charge Sword of Mag at the Altar of Three, HoTS killing of JK King Nightfall in Gestalt Bay, and even the recent JK raid on HoTS citadel where video shows HOTS outnumbered, but still killing more JK.  I'm sure there are many more instances out there.  

 

Sparta raid:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wq-R0qaNFs0

 

JK Davy and Sword of Mag:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0ZEOXAQYhY

 

HoTS killing JK King Nightfall:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67u9SgALzBM

 

JK attacking HoTS citadel:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4r0kfiXrGGs&feature=youtu.be

 

 

 

So these are the many reasons why my standpoint against SOTG and meditation paths in general are geared more towards an overall balance vs just a nerf of SOTG or a buff to Hate for example. Buffing other paths will just create more of the OP affect and continue a huge gap between new players and vets... Not that a new player should be balanced vs a vet but at the same time to much one sided means we wont ever see players join chaos. The trend will just continue as very very few newcomers vs many vets leaving. 

 

Keeping SOTG somewhat as it is with a few tweaks and progressive DR with the combo of other med paths also being changed in a non OP fashion could bring back the fun fights of old times.

 

Galatyn spells it out that this is not the same old game when we all first started, new systems were put in and some were unknown as to what would come of it... In this case long term afects that create such a gap that there is no other options other then to only become the meta yourself. 

 

 

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Sorry but do we need two threads on this? Please merge the other into this, let the devs read everything in one place.

 

 

Going to reiterate what i said, to many threads and they probably wont be consolidated.

 

l think lowering the requirement to SOTG is important from a level 11 path to maybe level 7, giving level 11 a fair replacement that doesn't conflict with PvP. Or better yet make it a standard spell like Last Grasp in certain situations. Make chaos reasonable for newer people.

Edited by Niki

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@Galatyn

 

I didn't say it required no strategy, i said the accounts do 99% of the work, and they do if you look at how it used to be compared to now.

 

Look up "A HAPpy Day" and then compare it to any of those, and then see which fight you wouldve rather been in, lmao.

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Maurizio-  The videos do NOT further your point, in fact it's the exact opposite.  The videos illustrate that intelligence and "PvP IQ" can be more beneficial (or detrimental) than SoTG.  SoTG does not fix stupid.

 

Also, your stance that new players should basically be on the same level as veterans with years of experience is absurd.

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Horribly overpowered passive buff and still the poll results always says otherwise.

 

Hueh

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dont nerf sotg, nerf farming. now at 100 farming you get 10 100 ql crop. that is more op! and it is same work to get to it as to get to sotg. at 90+ mining you dont get every ore 90+ ql, but in farming you do. 

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14 hours ago, Galatyn said:

 

When the game was in beta, didn't everyone have about the same skill level since the game was new?  This game has been out so long that the longtime pvp players have 90+ fighting, shield, and weapon skills,  body strength around 50+, etc.  It's a mature game now.  How can their be a balance between long time players who worked hard to earn their high skills and new players starting the game?  I don't understand why there should even be a balance.  Seems like it would remove the incentive to train up fighting skills and body stats.

 

 

Balance does not mean equality, it means fairness in terms of mechanics.

 

The whole of the Wurm Combat system is flawed from the bottom up and needs the basics, let alone things like SotG reviewed and reworked. Scaling and stacking are, at least in my eyes, done totally wrong and things like SotG simply expose and highlight it.

 

The difference between a fresh newbie and a grizzled vet just on the numbers is massive, ignoring any actual PvP skills. If this is what Rolf wants then there isn't anything we can do about it but if he wants the entry barrer to be bearable then the base effectiveness of of skills and gear needs to be raised. Of course it weakens the top end characters in a relative manner but the newbie player still has to put in the same amount of effort to get to where they are.

 

As for bonuses most games where they try to have balanced PvP tend to have bonuses in the 2 - 5% range not 100% Does anyone know of another game with massive bonuses that actually is considered balanced? I'm curious as I can't think of any.

 

 

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On 3/24/2016 at 3:16 AM, bangzuvelis said:

dont nerf sotg, nerf farming. now at 100 farming you get 10 100 ql crop. that is more op! and it is same work to get to it as to get to sotg. at 90+ mining you dont get every ore 90+ ql, but in farming you do. 

Not to de-rail too much, but he makes a valid point. You always cap your skill in farming for harvesting, but you not always get 99ql logs at 99 woodcutting or 99ql gold ore at 99 mining. 

 

Back on topic:::

My two cents: raise the base but keep sotg. for example if the base had a modifier of 1 and sotg is 1.5, make the base start at 1.1 or 1.15. The reasoning behind this is you don't pvp all the time. Most of the time before you raid someones deed is resource gathering. Some of us chose to do PoK so we could have the ability to gain skills faster therefore essentially have 25% better ammo or gear. Why should a group that has better gear or better supplies be instantley one shotted by a guy with less skills than you with a rare huge axe. If you raise the base, have the guy who was before one shot killed, have a chance to get out of a bad situation. Even so that the person may only have 5-10% health left. 

Edited by polarbear

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6 hours ago, LorenaMontana said:

Horribly overpowered passive buff and still the poll results always says otherwise.

 

Hueh

 

well the "i got it so now it cant be nerfed!!!" fandom is quite strong

 

rolf needs to man up and sack the dumb idea.

 

 

its still hilarious to me how people actually consider "well i have it and you can get it too!" as an actual argument when it comes to balance.

Edited by Propheteer
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It saddens me to see what happened to this game. 

 

I know that everyone that played in beta, gold and before all champion changes, artifacts, overpowered meditation abilities, etc enjoyed the game more then they do now.

 

Back then a fight could last awhile between two high skilled fighters. More raids cause you didnt die that easy, you could actually if you played smart get away from a gank. Players wasnt afraid to roam the lands. We had so many big skirmishes and raids back then with 50+ people. And everyone enjoyed it.

 

Now it seems that if you want to pvp you not only need SOTG, but artifacts and titles and everything else. Skill isnt enough to pvp nowadays.

 

Ah well, what bothers me when iam reading the answers in this thread is the people that say "oh, without SOTG you will get 1 shotted with hughe axe"... hmm dont you realise yourself that something is awfully wrong then when a weapon can kill you in 1 or 2 hits? 

 

Sure, everyone can get SOTG, and theres the problem, we shouldnt have to get SOTG to have _fun_ pvping. 

 

Edited by Pottis
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56 minutes ago, Pottis said:

Ah well, what bothers me when iam reading the answers in this thread is the people that say "oh, without SOTG you will get 1 shotted with hughe axe"... hmm dont you realise yourself that something is awfully wrong then when a weapon can kill you in 1 or 2 hits?

 

My concern is that there is a LOT wrong with pvp.  This is simply a one-off nerf suggestion to the single skill that DOES keep you alive for more than a few shots.  It is like suggesting that that if I'm failing as a one legged man in an ass kicking contest to cut my other leg off.  If you want to one-off nerf something, why not pick the thing that is crazy which is huge axes killing people in a couple of shots?

 

I am always going to -1 one-off nerf suggestions that don't account for re-balance as a whole.  As a group, we should realize that the game now is not the game then.  If it was so great and people were having such fun, why was the game changed so drastically?  It is either because the devs don't care about what we all think of it or people weren't having as much fun as nostalgia seems to say.

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13 minutes ago, Graymane said:

 

My concern is that there is a LOT wrong with pvp.  This is simply a one-off nerf suggestion to the single skill that DOES keep you alive for more than a few shots.  It is like suggesting that that if I'm failing as a one legged man in an ass kicking contest to cut my other leg off.  If you want to one-off nerf something, why not pick the thing that is crazy which is huge axes killing people in a couple of shots?

 

I am always going to -1 one-off nerf suggestions that don't account for re-balance as a whole.  As a group, we should realize that the game now is not the game then.  If it was so great and people were having such fun, why was the game changed so drastically?  It is either because the devs don't care about what we all think of it or people weren't having as much fun as nostalgia seems to say.

 

because someone got mad when they died, went in irc, complained, to rolf in pm and there was a random patch made with no change, testing, or reasoning behind it half the time without a patch note.

thats about 90% the reason the game is where it is now.

 

yes, the game was at its peak in pvp activity between 2009-2012.
 

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1 hour ago, Pottis said:

It saddens me to see what happened to this game. 

 

I know that everyone that played in beta, gold and before all champion changes, artifacts, overpowered meditation abilities, etc enjoyed the game more then they do now.

 

Back then a fight could last awhile between two high skilled fighters. More raids cause you didnt die that easy, you could actually if you played smart get away from a gank. Players wasnt afraid to roam the lands. We had so many big skirmishes and raids back then with 50+ people. And everyone enjoyed it.

 

Now it seems that if you want to pvp you not only need SOTG, but artifacts and titles and everything else. Skill isnt enough to pvp nowadays.

 

Ah well, what bothers me when iam reading the answers in this thread is the people that say "oh, without SOTG you will get 1 shotted with hughe axe"... hmm dont you realise yourself that something is awfully wrong then when a weapon can kill you in 1 or 2 hits? 

 

Sure, everyone can get SOTG, and theres the problem, we shouldnt have to get SOTG to have _fun_ pvping. 

 

 

the problem has nothing to do with skills or meditation paths here... the reason nobody roams and pvp's is because wurm is no longer a game... people treat it like an investment, "i cant die ill lose 250E worth of gear"...   people sell their pvp accounts, so the P2W factor is HUGE, half the accounts on chaos have been bought... seriously! its the stupidest ###### ever... i've never for the life of me played a game where account selling / sharing was considered norm or even okay... every other game out there if you buy an account your an idiot, and laughing stock of the pvp world because YOUR A JOKE... its not even your account, if you want to fix pvp, everytime an account is sold its skills go down by 50% would be an instant fix for all these problems, NO SOTG accounts sold = NO NEED TO NURF IT... most pvper's wouldnt have it and it would be rare like it was originally intended...

 

Edit: everything thats majorly wrong with this game is instantly fixed by banning all accounts that are sold... pvp and the economy alike...

Edited by Evilreaper

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how do you know if an account was sold or if its just someone moved or someone's brother playing it ;)

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13 minutes ago, Alexgopen said:

how do you know if an account was sold or if its just someone moved or someone's brother playing it ;)

 

by banning it forever... duh and not giving 2 @#$!s   account sharing should also be bannible... its an unfair advantage more so than sotg could ever compare to...   

 

example:  

SOTG advantage:

dbag#1 has sotg, while dbag#2 , #3, #4, #5 do not, they go fight morons #1 thru #5 who also do not have sotg, all wearing 70ql plate, with 70ql swords and shields

Dbag team kills all of Moron team yay sotg wins omg its soooo OverPowered lets nurf it

 

account sharing advantage:

Dbag#1 has sotg and Dbags #2 thru 5 do not... they go fight Morons #1 thru #5 who do not have sotg HOWEVER, the Morons all share their accounts and have a team priest... and everyone is grinding all 6 toons  24/7 and get all weapon skills and shield skills and channel to 100 and cast 100+ casts on all their gear

Moron team destroys Dbag team including sotg dude YAY for account sharing its not OP at all...

 

Edit: yea if you cannot beat them... join them, my wife and i share priests and when shes at work, i grind stuff with her toon sometimes, and visa-versa... 

Edited by Evilreaper

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14 minutes ago, Evilreaper said:

 

by banning it forever... duh and not giving 2 @#$!s   account sharing should also be bannible... its an unfair advantage more so than sotg could ever compare to...   

 

example:  

SOTG advantage:

dbag#1 has sotg, while dbag#2 , #3, #4, #5 do not, they go fight morons #1 thru #5 who also do not have sotg, all wearing 70ql plate, with 70ql swords and shields

Dbag team kills all of Moron team yay sotg wins omg its soooo OverPowered lets nurf it

 

account sharing advantage:

Dbag#1 has sotg and Dbags #2 thru 5 do not... they go fight Morons #1 thru #5 who do not have sotg HOWEVER, the Morons all share their accounts and have a team priest... and everyone is grinding all 6 toons  24/7 and get all weapon skills and shield skills and channel to 100 and cast 100+ casts on all their gear

Moron team destroys Dbag team including sotg dude YAY for account sharing its not OP at all...

 

Edit: yea if you cannot beat them... join them, my wife and i share priests and when shes at work, i grind stuff with her toon sometimes, and visa-versa... 

 

You have no proper way to enforce the punishment of account selling or account sharing, at all. No matter what a large percentage will slip through the cracks and if the game actually gets large, you're ###### out of luck unless its a high profile account.

 

Also, both awful examples, nobody is saying SOTG is overpowered because one person has it in a fight, they're saying its overpowered because nothing can top it. (not to mention that if it was an example that directly related to Wurm, one team would have nothing but SOTG as there are groups that literally do not permit those who don't have it to PvP with them as they are a liability and a hindrance rather than someone that can be relied upon to take a few hits.)

 

The account sharing advantage also doesn't correlate to PvP because while people do share accounts, you have an entire kingdom to back you up. If i ever died in PvP, no matter what the kingdom, if i asked for gear to replace the set i just lost, i would get pvp-ready gear. That means 80ql minimum on everything but arrows, 70 cast minimum on a plate set, a moonmetal weapon (maybe multiple as i know i personally carry a small maul, a med maul, and a huge axe to pvp), a moonmetal helmet, quiver of arrows, a longbow and shortbow, This would all likely be done within 3 to 12 hours after my death no matter what kingdom i was in, this is also operating under the assumption that my kingdom is not very successful in PvP and doesn't have the gear stashes ive personally seen. (In my previous kingdom, i had access to 140+ rafts full of pvp ready gear and tools, free to take at any time. Anything under 80ql with less than 70 casts was sacced if it wasn't a skiller tool.)

 

With that being said, I do however share my account, do you know why? The primary reason, above all else, is that this game is incredibly buggy. I've had like thirty instances where I have crashed in PvP and someone who was not there was able to log me in and get me out of danger so i didn't lose all my ###### because of a crash or a bug or whatever else. The secondary reason is that kingdom titles are very useful but also very limited, accounts that have titles such as information minister are often shared as if you don't have it before going into a fight you're gimping yourself for no good reason. (Provided you don't have a bot set up to relay you the information). Thirdly, everyone needs gear. I don't play anymore, but I don't plan on selling my account. If my kingdom is 90% priests i don't see a logical reason for them to have to pay for another account just to touch up their gear 1-2ql once or twice a week when they can just use mine. (I've also never seen anyone grind up an account that wasn't their own. lol. waste of effort really.)

 

Don't try to sway an argument that directly pertains to PvP balance if you not only don't understand the environments its used in (and likely haven't participated in it long or at all), but the argument of why the path itself is overpowered. It also seems like you are trying to push a completely different argument here rather than what the OP intended.

Edited by Propheteer

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4 minutes ago, Propheteer said:

Also, both awful examples, nobody is saying SOTG is overpowered because one person has it in a fight, they're saying its overpowered because nothing can top it. (not to mention that if it was an example that directly related to Wurm, one team would have nothing but SOTG as there are groups that literally do not permit those who don't have it to PvP with them as they are a liability and a hindrance rather than someone that can be relied upon to take a few hits.)

 

what kingdom is that?

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8 minutes ago, Propheteer said:

 

You have no proper way to enforce the punishment of account selling or account sharing, at all. No matter what a large percentage will slip through the cracks and if the game actually gets large, you're ###### out of luck unless its a high profile account.

 

 

actually its easy to enforce... make a rule that says we ban you if you do it, then start banning them when they do it... once a couple have been perma-banned just the fear of being banned will detour 90% of account sales

 

EVERY other game in the world does it... its not as hard as you people make it out to be

Edited by Evilreaper

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