End GM Censorship of the Forums

[ExpiredSalsa 46]

8 hours ago, Ostentatio said:

 

Agreed. The internet has enough content-free garbage, hate speech, and general chaos that I'd like to be able to avoid when playing Wurm Online or browsing its forums.

What do you even mean? Anytime I speak in global you troll the hell out of anything I say.
You're one of the few people that made it onto my ignore list.

[Retrograde 12,013]

The forum rules are pretty easy and clear. we do allow players to voice their opinions even if they are negative. Constructive feedback (X is the wrong idea and could be improved with Y), or even neutral feedback (X is the wrong idea) is always welcome. I work very closely with players to take feedback and pass it on to the appropriate team.

 

I know there are areas we need to improve on, so I'm always happy to listen and discuss issues as they arise, suggest possible fixes, or work with the area in question and discuss ideas how they can be improved.

 

however, the line is drawn at destructive feedback, or simply, staff bashing (whoever thought of X is an idiot) If you wish to be able to bash the game, or the staff unchecked, then you will find yourself quickly at the receiving end of moderation. This is no change to forum rules in the past, and will continue to be the norm for all actions in the future. no game allows players to openly bash the game, so don't expect to get away with it here. The same goes for attempts to derail a thread by constantly referring back to moderated posts.

 

Keep your feedback away from playing the blame game, avoid attacking other players for differing opinions (positive OR negative) and focus on what we all want to see, an improved Wurm.

 

We'll get along just fine.

 

Out of curiosity, would it be better if hidden posts were issued a warning detailing why it was hidden?

[zigozag 918]

55 minutes ago, Retrograde said:

 

Out of curiosity, would it be better if hidden posts were issued a warning detailing why it was hidden?

 

It is an obvious prerequisite to removing any post.

Spoiler

Of course, every web-oriented company now has that inglorious ###### in their rules, saying that they can do anything to your accounts/data/whatever without any notice or explanation, but we all know that's it's not a real rule, just a thought-to-be-legal way to get away from responsibility or dealing with bots or smth like that...

 

Let me ask, which of aforementioned requirements were not met when a player said that...

 

BY CONTINUING READING FURTHER UNDER THE SPOILER YOU AGREE AND GUARANTEE TO NOT ACCEPT, THINK OF (BASED ON WHAT IS WRITTEN UNDER THE SPOILER) OR SPREAD ON THESE FORUMS ANY KIND OF FEAR, UNCERTAINTY AND/OR DOUBT IN THE FUTURE OF WURM ONLINE AND/OR ITS AFFILIATES.

 

Spoiler

... CC has no customer care and then explained his opinion without any bashing/insults/whatsoever?

 

Of course, it was negative towards WO and especially CC, but not towards all the product as a whole.

 

That being said, +1 to OP.

Edited March 11, 2016 by zigozag

[Keenan 5,539]

5 hours ago, zigozag said:

Not when you want your guests to pay you.

 

If I walk in to a bar, order a round for everyone, swipe my credit card, and immediately give the bar tender a good ol' Bostonian telling off... that bartender has every right to throw my sorry backside right out of his establishment before I have a chance to finish my drink. Now this is probably a sorry example because of the brawl that would ensue, but you should be able to build the proper imagery in your head here.

 

It doesn't matter how much you've paid or that you're a customer. You still do not have "freedom of speech" here.

 

A few months before I joined the team as a Wurmpedia Assistant, I bought a domain and put a forum up that I was working hard on getting ready for prime time. I canceled that plan after joining the team, but the intention was a place where self-moderation was the law, and moderators only handled illegal activity and the few areas where self-moderation broke, such as spam bots. I'm a fan of self-moderation, so really this entire desire for more relaxed forum rules isn't new to me. This is just the worst possible way to go about getting any sort of reform on forum moderation.

 

If anything this post and some of the replies would make a startling good case for more moderation.

 

If people are going to make a stand for something and try to better the community, it's best to make that stand on a platform that rises above the crowd. Don't make it standing in a pile of horse dung on left in a muddy ditch.

[Becket 843]

Hmmm on my first cup of coffee and smoke of the day, it hurts my head to read this so lets cut to the chase,

You want to be able to say whatever you want on the forums...not going to happen.. end of story.

[Postinglels 1,270]

I'm gonna throw in my bit seeing as I won't have massive involvement in this game for a while. On the whole forum moderation has been fair, if strict. I know this as I've stretched what can be said on numerous occasions and afaik have on had to contact the lfm twice in 3 years to query a post removal. If you seriously think that this is harsh just look at a fraction of my posts. You can say alot within the rules

[Etherdrifter 2,518]

"No practical definition of freedom would be complete without the freedom to take the consequences. Indeed, it is the freedom upon which all the others are based." - Terry Pratchett, Going Postal

 

The question here, OP, is where would you draw the line, and if the line was drawn in that place would you be willing to be responsible for the consequences?  Would you be willing to enforce that line yourself in a fair and unbiased way, even when people are questioning your ability and insulting your decisions?

 

I am not too sure you would, however if you are willing then I would suggest posting an amended version of the forum rules so that people can see exactly where you stand.  Successful protesters rarely just say "I am unhappy with X", they do say "I am unhappy with X, I demand Y".

 

 

[Slickshot 1,195]

I always feel like many people want less moderation when they aren't allowed to run rampant and say whatever they want to whoever they want.  However, the moment someone else comes into the picture and walks all over you publicly, then your tune inevitably changes and you're calling for that person to be silenced.  This is called hypocrisy.  It's basically in line with the comment from ether:  you have to be willing to accept the consequences for your actions, and most people (so it would seem) are not willing to do so.

Edited March 11, 2016 by Slickshot

[Klaa 4,872]

4 hours ago, Retrograde said:

Out of curiosity, would it be better if hidden posts were issued a warning detailing why it was hidden?

 

Sometimes the reasons why a post is hidden seems rather vague and arbitrary, so would be helpful.

 

For example (at the risk of questioning moderation publically), there was a post of mine hidden recently, and I'm not sure why persay. Didn't even realize it was hidden until the thread's OP pm'ed me about it, wondering why as well.

 

Speaking of... haven't heard back on my inquiry on that one. Is Solmark the wrong one to ask?

 

Having a better idea where the line is, would be useful to help avoid crossing the line

[Patreus 43]

3 hours ago, Keenan said:

It doesn't matter how much you've paid or that you're a customer. You still do not have "freedom of speech" here.

Do you realize how awful this statement is?

 

3 hours ago, Keenan said:

If people are going to make a stand for something and try to better the community, it's best to make that stand on a platform that rises above the crowd. Don't make it standing in a pile of horse dung on left in a muddy ditch.

If people are going to make a stand for something and try to better the community, it's best to refuse to accept that awful statement, "you still do not have "freedom of speech" here".

I am not surprised people even liked that post containing a strict confession that this is a dictatorship. It's not the first nor the last time they applaud things that bad.

I opt to stand above the crowd that liked your post with such an unacceptable statement.

 

3 hours ago, Becket said:

Hmmm on my first cup of coffee and smoke of the day, it hurts my head to read this so lets cut to the chase,

You want to be able to say whatever you want on the forums...not going to happen.. end of story.

Apparently, you didn't bother to read the whole story, but still have a strong opinion. I am not going to repeat the story for you, but nobody said we want to be able to say whatever we want. That's not the meaning of "freedom of speech". I recommend you drink that cup of coffee to wake up first, read what I said about freedom of speech already, then comment. Not before.

[Archaed 2,280]

What exactly do you wish to see change?

[Amadee 1,543]

First of all.  I know others have said this but apparently it needs to be said a few more times.  It doesn't seem to be sinking in.  This is a privately owned and run forum.  Therefore it is not subject to any "freedom of speech" rules, laws, etc.  It's not even subject to anyone's *opinion* of what they should or should not be allowed to post.  If I wanted to run a forum where you were not allowed to use the word 'Purple' that would be my prerogative and anyone who didn't like it could go take a flying leap at the moon.

 

As for trying to define "freedom of speech" you might try a google search.  Lots of good info out there.  

 

http://www.uscourts.gov/about-federal-courts/educational-resources/about-educational-outreach/activity-resources/what-does

 

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/freedom-of-speech

 

• Word Origin

See more synonyms on Thesaurus.com

noun

1.

the right of people to express their opinions publicly without governmental interference, subject to the laws against libel, incitement to violence or rebellion, etc.

Also called free speech.

 

freedom of speech in Culture

 

 

freedom of speech definition

 

The right to speak without censorship or restraint by the government. Freedom of speech is protected by the First Amendment to the Constitution. (See clear and present danger.)

The American Heritage® New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, Third Edition
Copyright © 2005 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
Cite This Source

 

[Firestarter 1,210]

2 hours ago, Klaa said:

For example (at the risk of questioning moderation publically), there was a post of mine hidden recently, and I'm not sure why persay. Didn't even realize it was hidden until the thread's OP pm'ed me about it, wondering why as well.

 

Speaking of... haven't heard back on my inquiry on that one. Is Solmark the wrong one to ask?

To answer your question, yes, solmark isn't the one to ask about that anymore as he is no longer the Lead Forum Moderator. 

 

If you are still after a reply/reason, feel free to PM me and I'll do my best to help you out.

[Amadee 1,543]

8 hours ago, Ostentatio said:

 

Yeah, and some of us might be a little more willing to stick around and pay money if the house isn't full of gibbering nonsense. Clubs also have bouncers, and I can't show up to a fancy restaurant with no shirt on and "BOMB THE <insert your favorite slur here>" written on my chest in Sharpie. You know, because a decently cultivated atmosphere of civility might actually attract people.

 

Yep.  This pretty much sums it up for me. 

[Niki 2,278]

I get in trouble when I use freedom of speech, and it's usually not by mods but players, the forums are pretty okay all things considered. I don't think we need more rules or changes, and I don't think the mods are really hiding all the posts. You can say something in a way that can't get you into trouble if you actually think about it, a lot of you are to lazy to do that and you're posts get removed because its clearly FUD.

 

 

Edited March 11, 2016 by Niki

[Slickshot 1,195]

8 hours ago, Patreus said:

Freedom of speech does NOT lead to "gibbering nonsense". Do not mix freedom of speech with gibbering, or posting personal attacks, bad language etc.

Also, I am sorry, but a "decently cultivated atmosphere of civility" means everyone has the right to speak his mind, provided he is not abusing the rights of others. Otherwise it is not a forum anymore. So, what you consider as a "cultivated atmosphere" is a forum where everybody is so happy and agrees with everybody else, and worship everything about the game without doubts about anything. Whenever I see such  forum on the Internet, I know in advance it is heavily censored. And THAT is a plague. not the freedom of speech.

 

1 hour ago, Patreus said:

Do you realize how awful this statement is?

 

If people are going to make a stand for something and try to better the community, it's best to refuse to accept that awful statement, "you still do not have "freedom of speech" here".

I am not surprised people even liked that post containing a strict confession that this is a dictatorship. It's not the first nor the last time they applaud things that bad.

I opt to stand above the crowd that liked your post with such an unacceptable statement.

 

Apparently, you didn't bother to read the whole story, but still have a strong opinion. I am not going to repeat the story for you, but nobody said we want to be able to say whatever we want. That's not the meaning of "freedom of speech". I recommend you drink that cup of coffee to wake up first, read what I said about freedom of speech already, then comment. Not before.

I'm going to do my best to explain this out thoughtfully and respectfully, so bare with me please.

 

Spoiler

 

Freedom of speech does NOT lead to "gibbering nonsense". Do not mix freedom of speech with gibbering, or posting personal attacks, bad language etc. --- Freedom of speech leads to an endless road of possibilities, whether that be expressions of joy, disgust, regret, support, anger, love, hate, pain, sorrow, hope, etc.  The freedom of speech allows us to be individuals.  This means it can be used for anything between the spectrum ends of good and bad, including "gibbering nonsense."  If you can accept that good things come from free speech, then you must accept that bad things come from it as well.  You can't have one without the possibility of having the other.  Bad language, personal attacks, and gibbering--among other things--falls into the realm of speech.  In those instances a person uses their free will and their voice for negative purposes.  This is not a mix-up of freedom of speech, it is plainly the use of such freedom to cause distress and harm.

 

Also, I am sorry, but a "decently cultivated atmosphere of civility" means everyone has the right to speak his mind, provided he is not abusing the rights of others. --- This is not being questioned, as it is spot on.  A decently cultivated atmosphere of civility means exactly what it says; providing an atmosphere of civil interaction through decency even with differences of opinion.  A person can differ in opinion with someone else, and still be civil with their approach.  They can still choose to not abuse the rights and respects of others.  Choosing to remark hatefully towards someone is not civil.  This doesn't mean you cannot choose that approach, it just means you cannot expect that approach to be heard or respected.  No one is required to listen to you berate them or others.  That is freedom.

 

So, what you consider as a "cultivated atmosphere" is a forum where everybody is so happy and agrees with everybody else, and worship everything about the game without doubts about anything. --- No one has said that that is what they consider to be cultivated atmosphere.  A cultivated atmosphere is a place where you can have a cultivation of differences and opinions, or growth if you will.  Assuming that removing hateful speech denies cultivation is asinine.  As mentioned above, a person can have a negative opinion without using it to abuse others.  It takes will power and discipline to consider the existence of others as being important and valuable.  Perpetuating an atmosphere of constructive communication--this doesn't always mean positive ideas--leads to growth and understanding.  Perpetuating an atmosphere of destructive communication leads to disease and displeasure for all of those involved.  Assuredly this is a very unpleasant atmosphere, and I think anyone would agree with that.

 

Whenever I see such  forum on the Internet, I know in advance it is heavily censored. And THAT is a plague. not the freedom of speech. --- Thankfully Wurm Online does not have such a forum.  If that were true you wouldn't be able to go into the weekly news threads and see the disappointment of certain features which people disagree with.  Those posts are never removed unless they contain some form of personal attack.  Saying that you don't like the game is perfectly acceptable, and I've yet to see such comments removed in the years I've been here.  Saying that you think the lead developer is an ignorant prick; however, isn't so much about your dislike for the game, but instead an attack on the character of a person which you dislike.  If everyone was allowed to freely use such nonsensical communication, this would be an entirely different forum, and many people would stray from this place and the game to avoid the toxic environment produced.  Thankfully, as I said, that is not the case for Wurm Online.  Negative opinions and feedback is welcomed, and often times discussed further to find solutions.  Harassment and defamation of character is only ever destructive.  Defamation, slander, hate speech, etc., all of these things plague communication and bring civility to an end.

 

If people are going to make a stand for something and try to better the community, it's best to refuse to accept that awful statement, "you still do not have "freedom of speech" here".  --- To expand upon this, you do not have the freedom of speech here without being ready to accept the consequences.  We already went over how it is not acceptable to attack other players or staff members personally, as no one appreciates that kind of disrespect.  If you choose to use your freedom of speech to abuse others, you must be ready to face the consequences.  These consequences range from deletion of posts, to permanent bans.  When everyone understands the rules and what is acceptable and what isn't--and truly you should have the common human decency to avoid abusing people whenever possible--then you have no reason to be angry when the consequences come knocking on your door.  Your choices are your own, they are not made for you.  You can choose to use your freedom of speech constructively, or destructively.  When the choice is yours, it means the rewards or consequences are also yours to own.

 

I am not surprised people even liked that post containing a strict confession that this is a dictatorship. It's not the first nor the last time they applaud things that bad. --- I am not surprised either, as most people appreciate a non-hostile environment for which they can communicate with others.  People just want to have a good time.  They don't want to log into the forums or the game and see endless drama that goes nowhere and progresses nothing.  That isn't fun.  Make note of the fact that this is a democracy and not a dictatorship.  The problem you seem to be facing is that the judicial system that enforces the rules is the lead democracy.  As a player you are free to come and go whenever you choose.  In a dictatorship that cannot be true.  In fact, from what I can tell, most of the players in this game and the participants of the forums do not view this environment as a dictatorship.  They are everyday people who appreciate being heard, and appreciate not being attacked when they voice their opinion.  That kind of atmosphere does not exist in a dictatorship, but it does exist in a democracy.  In essence, we are applauding the staff for taking the time to draw the line, and uphold the rules instead of letting the select few--and it really is only just a few people--run amok, ruining the experience and enjoyment of others.

 

Apparently, you didn't bother to read the whole story, but still have a strong opinion. I am not going to repeat the story for you, but nobody said we want to be able to say whatever we want. That's not the meaning of "freedom of speech". I recommend you drink that cup of coffee to wake up first, read what I said about freedom of speech already, then comment. Not before.  --- I chose to read your comments, even with the passive-aggressive tone they were posted in.  I've responded as tactfully as I can manage so as to help get this message across without needless hostility.  Whether you choose to read it and take it seriously is entirely up to you, but you cannot say that no one heard you out and took time out of their day to respect you and reply to you.

 

 

Thank you, to any of you who took the time to read this very winded and detailed explanation.  I appreciate your patience.

 

 

Edited March 11, 2016 by Slickshot
Bracketed in spoiler to allow for quick scroll by if you so choose.

[MarkSilard 194]

If some posts do not get removed, we would soon have world war III here.

Anyway,  I believe this part of forum is : 

 

Suggestions & Ideas

Post ideas for new game features here. 

Edited March 11, 2016 by MarkSilard

[Patreus 43]

@Slickshot: I think we have a different definition of "freedom of speech" and "freedom" in general. My freedom stops where the freedom of someone else starts. This means that "freedom of speech" doesn't mean I have the right to start personal attacks to others.

My "passive-aggressive tone" you mentioned is, in fact, a try to respect the freedom of others to express their opinion and avoid personal attacks, even if said opinions are derived from a "black/white" logic. The logic that leads to awful things like "I don't mind surveillance cameras in the streets; I have nothing to hide" (as if refusing to have a big brother watching means you have something to hide), or "if you are not with us you are against us" (probably one of the most stupid statements I've ever heard), or, in our case, "I just want to have a good time, who cares about details like freedom of speech" (as if freedom of speech means bye-bye good time). Personally, I find that logic disgusting.

Edited March 11, 2016 by Patreus

[Patreus 43]

30 minutes ago, MarkSilard said:

If some posts do not get removed, we would soon have world war III here.

Yes, yes, delete posts! Amazing some people love it so much. Come on guys, we just want to "have fun", who cares about your little concerns about freedom. Take my freedom away and bring me the popcorn. Disgusting.

[MarkSilard 194]

All opinions of others you call disgusting. Be nice  man. 

[zethreal 582]

Posts / threads are removed based on this post. Since Code Club =/= US Gov't, they have the right to artificially limit your "freedom of speech", as they are a private company that can do as they see fit.  Any of the posts I have seen removed have violated one, if not more of what I've posted below the link to the Wurm Rules. I have not posted the full forum rules.

 

Trolling
Definition: Inflammatory or off-topic messages intended to provoke other members into a desired emotional response or to otherwise disrupt the topic.

 

Harassment (The most common reason I've seen posts being removed )
Definition: Systematic and/or continued unwanted and annoying actions, including threats and demands.

A ) You may not harass (sexually or otherwise), verbally abuse, threaten, berate, flame, or cause unwanted distress to anyone.

 

Content

A ) You may not use sexually explicit, harmful, threatening, abusive, defamatory, obscene, hateful, racially or ethnically offensive language.

 - This includes workarounds, symbols, links, misspelling, and text within images.

 

Language
A ) You must use English when posting in the forum.

 

Challenging Moderation ( This is why you question GM / CA / Form Mod decisions via PM )

A ) You should never challenge moderator actions in public.

 - All challenges relating to moderation action should be sent privately to a forum moderator. If a satisfactory solution cannot be achieved then send your concerns to the Lead Forum Moderator.

B ) If you have had a post removed and are unable to determine the reason after a careful review of the Forum Rules, contact a forum moderator with any questions regarding why.

[Slickshot 1,195]

8 minutes ago, MarkSilard said:

All opinions of others you call disgusting. Be nice  man. 

This is where civility plays a part of using your freedom of speech constructively.  One man says, basically, "your opinion is not mine, and that's disgusting."  Another person will say, "your opinion is not mine, but you offer diversity worth reading."

Edited March 11, 2016 by Slickshot

[Patreus 43]

3 minutes ago, MarkSilard said:

All opinions of others you call disgusting. Be nice  man. 

If someone's opinion is "take my freedom away, delete any post that stirs the waters, I just want to have fun, bring me the popcorn" - or something similar, I have all the rights of the world to call it disgusting. I didn't say "shut up", I didn't ask your opinion should be deleted (as you did). You still have the right to think as you please.

[Slickshot 1,195]

2 minutes ago, Patreus said:

If someone's opinion is "take my freedom away, delete any post that stirs the waters, I just want to have fun, bring me the popcorn" - or something similar, I have all the rights of the world to call it disgusting. I didn't say "shut up", I didn't ask your opinion should be deleted (as you did). You still have the right to think as you please.

Civility and respect.

 

No one is saying, "Hey please take my freedom."  What they are saying; however, is, "Yes, please feel free to remove the abusive posts of others who do not understand how to convey respect to those around them.  Those people are acting with toxicity, and we, the major collective majority, do not appreciate it."

Edited March 11, 2016 by Slickshot

[Patreus 43]

4 minutes ago, Slickshot said:

This is where civility plays a part of using your freedom of speech constructively.  One man says, basically, "your opinion is not mine, and that's disgusting."  Another person will say, "your opinion is not mine, but you offer diversity worth reading."

I don't think this describes anything said above.