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Yamuliss

End GM Censorship of the Forums

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Yeah my suggestion is for Devs and Rolf to end GMs and CMs censorships of the forum. People are people with the right to express freedom of speech. If someone dislikes a trade, character, a deal gone wrong, An alliance thats wrong in every-way and there is many other examples to toss out there. If people choose to bring that fourth to the forum no matter the topic. It could be a topic about how wurm sucks or the hate for a game change  it really doesn't matter as long as it's not offensive to to individuals or offensive to individual staff i see nothing wrong with allowing freedom of speech. The forum moderators and public relations person is clamping down on individual players right to express there concerns and dislikes. I'm sorry, But that not how this game first started off. This kind of policy making is not going to bring you in more players and this is not going to end drama. In fact all it's doing is forcing more people to leave the game in general or switch over to WU and to leave disgruntled and irate. Which in the end makes bad publicity for wurm both wurm online and wurm unlimited. You see these people will go off start youtube channels to complain or post on other forums and blogs basically the negative word will get out that Wurm Online is controlled by complete censorship which is excellent i guess if the game going to cater now more towards children like say Wizard 101. If thats the direction the DEVS and Rolf taking the game then so be it but that will be the end of the economy for wurm. All you players out there that support this idea of complete and total censorship you need to stop and think about why you like playing the game and exactly who supports the game monetary wise. Children do not run around with credit cards and pay pal accounts. Adults do! So go ahead DEVS and GMS and Censor away and see your support dwindle more and see your numbers fall. It's laughable your destroying your own online game and for what.? You guys turned a blind eye months ago on alot drama and there was alot i know i have records of it and now all the sudden you guys decide you should do something? Little late guys a little late!

Edited by Yamuliss
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I think a huge solution is just hiring myself as Lead Forum mod, where I will strictly enforce forum rules and forum rules only. That would eliminate the need for FUD

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Nothing wrong with the way things are people just need to act like adults and realize that everyone entitled to there opinion and to freedom of speech. Some like me in the game some don't like me and they are entitled to however they feel. If they have had a bad dealings with me they are entitled to share it with whom ever they choose. But they are not entitled to attack me at a very personal and harmful level thats all just an example using myself. No one ever going to be happy 100% the time.   

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This is probably gonna get completely removed, but I'll voice my opinion (and ctrl-printscrn).

 

First of all, the company is well within its rights to do whatever they want with their forum, as long as they don't violate laws or the regulations of their hosting providers. While (depending on the country) many of us are (allegedly) protected from government censorship by free speech laws, those do not apply to private entities. 

 

With that in mind, I agree with you and stand behind you in support of the protest against the censorship executed by the forum moderation team under the guise of moderation. While Code Club has a legal right to do what they want, and in some circumstances it may be advisable to intervene (ie. users making death threats), the recent trends violate Western ideals regarding free expression.

 

I find it necessary to bring up some current events that may be playing into decisions on either side of this argument. Certain individuals and collectives have been censoring certain speech used by others that is seen as offensive. This has even been happening on Twitter, where Liberal, Conservative, and Libertarian viewpoints have been censored in various ways for offending and / or contradicting Progressive viewpoints. Another high-profile case is the Gregory Allen Elliot case. Within certain circles, free speech is a big issue and is viewed as under attack in today's current political climate. As such, some of this fear may be spilling over into the issues on this forum.

 

Digressions aside, this is a huge issue and I really would like to have an actual discussion that doesn't end with censorship and the "I'm right, you're wrong" attitude that is generally taken any time censorship is mentioned here.

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22 minutes ago, Yamuliss said:

Nothing wrong with the way things are people just need to act like adults and realize that everyone entitled to there opinion and to freedom of speech. Some like me in the game some don't like me and they are entitled to however they feel. If they have had a bad dealings with me they are entitled to share it with whom ever they choose. But they are not entitled to attack me at a very personal and harmful level thats all just an example using myself. No one ever going to be happy 100% the time.   

 

If you are from the US ( this is an assumption ) Freedom of speech is only in relation to YOUR GOVERNMENT. If you waltz into a store and start ranting about how it sucks, they have every legal right to throw your ass out or have you arrested for trespassing ( if they have asked you to leave and you refuse ). 

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The above post is accurate. 

 

The web comic xkcd had the best take on free speech, but it contains a few words that I should not use here. Essentially the freedom of speech means the government is not able to arrest you for what you say. More to the point, they can't arrest you for expressing your opinions. Freedom of speech does not extend to privately owned areas both in real life and on the Internet. You have a choice if you are unhappy with the limitations of your freedom to speak, but this thread is the worst possible choice.

 

Now let's look at the post itself. Does this post help me as a developer? Absolutely not. You haven't helped me make good use of my time in reading this. You've given me no feedback to use to improve the game, and the nature of the post itself means that it will likely be ignored by people who are a little more picky over what they choose to do with their time.

 

Why not pick something that bothers you about the game and dedicate the same energy you spent toward writing this erroneous proclamation of your violated rights and put some feedback up on something that could be changed to better the game for everyone? Or how about an reasonable idea that improves the in-game quality of life?

 

I do admire your passion, but it is misspent in this way.

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Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

The 3rd article of the bill of rights of the united states of america. It no where says you can say whatever you want without consequences :P

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14 minutes ago, Keenan said:

The above post is accurate. 

 

The web comic xkcd had the best take on free speech, but it contains a few words that I should not use here. Essentially the freedom of speech means the government is not able to arrest you for what you say. More to the point, they can't arrest you for expressing your opinions. Freedom of speech does not extend to privately owned areas both in real life and on the Internet. You have a choice if you are unhappy with the limitations of your freedom to speak, but this thread is the worst possible choice.

 

Now let's look at the post itself. Does this post help me as a developer? Absolutely not. You haven't helped me make good use of my time in reading this. You've given me no feedback to use to improve the game, and the nature of the post itself means that it will likely be ignored by people who are a little more picky over what they choose to do with their time.

 

Why not pick something that bothers you about the game and dedicate the same energy you spent toward writing this erroneous proclamation of your violated rights and put some feedback up on something that could be changed to better the game for everyone? Or how about an reasonable idea that improves the in-game quality of life?

 

I do admire your passion, but it is misspent in this way.

 

This is another thing that is upsetting some people (myself included). You respond to a request for change by saying that it doesn't help you as a developer. While protections from government censorship don't apply to private entities, the request is for loosening of the standards used by the moderation team. It isn't even a topic directed at developers; it's directed at moderation staff and company executives (Rolf, and anyone else who makes business decisions). Not only that, you are not the only developer. A request to the art team would not help a client developer. A request to server developers would not help a client developer. A request for new sound effects won't help you. While you might have to interact with these at some point, you aren't the only developer or employee / volunteer for Code Club, and just because something is written here does not make it directed at you specifically.

 

I don't mean for this to sound hostile. I respect and appreciate that you seem to be the most active on the forum among the development team and one of the only developers to regularly communicate with the community. I just think that there are issues that don't involve strictly the development team. Overall, business decisions and moderation incidents can be just as bad for the game overall as a bad game design decision.

 

I'd also like to suggest to the OP and anyone who agrees that you (we) collaborate on an unofficial forum (maybe a wiki too) where a more open attitude is enjoyed. Given the ability to sell silver coins, hosting costs might be a little bit easier to handle for us in comparison to those for other games with less open economies.

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well is simple... you never know who is behind GM charter so all chat about that is waste of time

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@MisterTeddy

 

The problem is that there are enough people on these forums that would absolutely abuse a more relaxed set of rules. To be completely truthful, I almost regret opening these forums every day. I'm never sure if I'll be pleasantly surprised or horribly disappointed, and some folks avoid them entirely because of those bad apples. If you want to see more developer interaction, posts like this will not make that happen. That's my point.

 

I know it's frustrating, but my posts have only a single intention: I want people to try and think differently. If there's a desire for more relaxed forum rules, a post literally calling out "GM censorship" isn't the way to go about getting that sort of reform. It's actually going to come across as staff bashing and encourage more moderation. I don't pick these posts out because I enjoy getting myself worked up. :)

 

We're all still here because we love this game in some way. There's a passion in this community that could be a gold mine if people would put it to a better use than making posts that intentionally draw negative attention from staff.

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I may not love posts getting deleted, but I'll take a moderated forum over a non-moderated one 10 times out of 10

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To be honest, saying that as an ex-moderator, moderation of Wurm Online forums is still a lot more relaxed than probably most of internet communities. I think that censorship is too big of a word to say that about this forum, it's more about keeping the discussions reasonable.

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To me it comes under "My house My rules"  

 

We all know things get carried away on the forums. Often times thing that would be better handled in pm end up here then we have a dog pile of opinions arguments, debate, bashing and what have you.  Sorry guys but the adults have to send people to the corner every once in awhile and cleanup the mess. 

 

When I come on the forums it is with the knowledge it is not acceptable for me  to be a much of a B**** as I would like to sometimes. If I do then I can expect to have my post removed etc. I know the rules and expectations just like everyone else.

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8 minutes ago, Xalorum said:

I may not love posts getting deleted, but I'll take a moderated forum over a non-moderated one 10 times out of 10

 

Agreed. The internet has enough content-free garbage, hate speech, and general chaos that I'd like to be able to avoid when playing Wurm Online or browsing its forums.

 

Regarding censorship of criticism, that's a whole other matter, but there is a fine line between censoring valuable criticism/feedback and censoring nonconstructive wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Edited by Ostentatio
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58 minutes ago, Sila said:

well is simple... you never know who is behind GM charter so all chat about that is waste of time

 

Actually, the majority either have the same forum/game name or are identified here:

 

http://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/4976-wurm-staff/

 

As for the OP, There's no specific GM censorship. Forum mods keep an eye on things and of course other forum users can submit reports where they believe things cross the line. People break the forum rules. It's very simple, if you don't agree with the rules, you shouldn't use the forums (or at least shouldn't post).

 

There isn't a plot to remove all posts demonstrating people's concerns and dislikes. It's the way in which those things are being posted - often with assumptions that are delivered as fact and are actually false and harm the game (rather like you stating that there's GM censorship of the forums and that "Wurm Online is controlled by complete censorship" which it really isn't. Not by a VERY long shot). THOSE are the ones that are hidden.

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So far I entirely agree with both of your posts Keenan.

 

As for the purpose of the thread, I will say a lot of the time in the past it felt like the wild west around here;  too much chaos and no law or explanations to be spoken of.  So i personally don't see how current events translate into censorship, but is instead just better monitoring than in the past and helps to keep the train on the tracks. 

 

I'm also reminded of a saying, "You are entitled to have your opinion, but that doesn't always mean you're entitled to share it.". I see that being mostly relevant to abusive comments and destruction, and not progressive suggestions.  Anyhow, that's my opinion.  

Edited by Slickshot

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" ... but .... but my mummy told me that I am special and that my opinion is important! No one should be allowed to shut me up!" :(:(:(

 

:P

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My house. My rules. Definitely applies here.

 

Real life has enuff drama without having to wade through piles of grievances in this forum.

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14 minutes ago, newman330 said:

My house. My rules. Definitely applies here.

 

5 hours ago, Chiqa said:

To me it comes under "My house My rules"  

 

Not when you want your guests to pay you.

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8 hours ago, Keenan said:

Now let's look at the post itself. Does this post help me as a developer? Absolutely not. You haven't helped me make good use of my time in reading this. You've given me no feedback to use to improve the game, and the nature of the post itself means that it will likely be ignored by people who are a little more picky over what they choose to do with their time.

 

Why not pick something that bothers you about the game and dedicate the same energy you spent toward writing this erroneous proclamation of your violated rights and put some feedback up on something that could be changed to better the game for everyone? Or how about an reasonable idea that improves the in-game quality of life?

 

I am sorry, but I disagree. No matter how I may appreciate your work in the client, the above is just not right.

 

First, Yamuliss did helped you as a developer. Freedom of speech improves the game; it's not a plague, and will not harm the game in anyway. On the contrary, censorship will harm it - it already does. Furthermore, as a client developer, you should not bother reading this thread anyway, because the thread title clearly says this is about the freedom of speech in the forums and has nothing to do with the game client itself. So Yamuliss is not wasting your time here.

Second, Yamuliss proclamation is NOT erroneous and could change to better the game for everyone. Freedom of speech was, is, and will ever be a right none can take off. So he is completely right trying to defend freedom of speech, which will only improve the game.

 

Freedom of speech should not be mistaken as a right to do personal attacks, use bad language, or whatever similar. Why people are so afraid of freedom of speech, I don't know.

Edited by Patreus

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2 minutes ago, Patreus said:

Freedom of speech was, is, and will ever be a right none can take off. So he is completely right trying to defend freedom of speech, which will only improve the game.

 

Freedom of speech should not be mistaken as a right to do personal attacks, use bad language, or whatever similar. Why people are so afraid of freedom of speech, I don't know.

 

You don't seem to understand the concept of "freedom of speech" or where it applies. It is very emphatically not a right you have when speaking in a private space like this game and its forums. The people in charge of them, however, do have every right to censor you for pretty much any reason, whatsoever. I'm not saying they should, just that "freedom of spech" and your "rights" have absolutely nothing to do with any of it.

 

The only censorship I see here, and in the game itself, is for things that are actually harmful or disruptive. Limiting this is not a bad thing; completely unmoderated forums turn to trash relatively quickly.

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2 hours ago, newman330 said:

My house. My rules. Definitely applies here.

You forgot a "small" detail: the visitors of the house are paying money for it.

 

2 hours ago, newman330 said:

Real life has enuff drama without having to wade through piles of grievances in this forum.

Oh come on, really. Everything that can stir the stinky waters is automatically labeled as "drama" and cursed. This makes no sense at all. Yamuliss' post about freedom of speech has nothing to do with drama.

Edited by Patreus

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4 minutes ago, Patreus said:

You forgot a "small" detail: the visitors of the house are paying money for it.

 

Yeah, and some of us might be a little more willing to stick around and pay money if the house isn't full of gibbering nonsense. Clubs also have bouncers, and I can't show up to a fancy restaurant with no shirt on and "BOMB THE <insert your favorite slur here>" written on my chest in Sharpie. You know, because a decently cultivated atmosphere of civility might actually attract people.

Edited by Ostentatio
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Just now, Ostentatio said:

 

Yeah, and some of us might be a little more willing to stick around and pay money if the house isn't full of gibbering nonsense. Clubs also have bouncers, and I can't show up to a fancy restaurant with no shirt on and "BOMB THE <insert your favorite slur here>" written on my chest in Sharpie. You know, because a decently cultivated atmosphere of civility might actually attract people.

Freedom of speech does NOT lead to "gibbering nonsense". Do not mix freedom of speech with gibbering, or posting personal attacks, bad language etc.

Also, I am sorry, but a "decently cultivated atmosphere of civility" means everyone has the right to speak his mind, provided he is not abusing the rights of others. Otherwise it is not a forum anymore. So, what you consider as a "cultivated atmosphere" is a forum where everybody is so happy and agrees with everybody else, and worship everything about the game without doubts about anything. Whenever I see such  forum on the Internet, I know in advance it is heavily censored. And THAT is a plague. not the freedom of speech.

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