Posted March 8, 2016 (edited) Thank you Gavin. Very enlightening. Exactly the kind of stuff I'm looking for in understanding what is happening in PvP these days. I wonder, does anyone in the power position of MR think PvP is just too easy and boring, because of their overpowering position on Chaos? Edit: Also, if PvP were to be recreated from scratch, what style of PvP would draw more people to play? Challenge was a bold server idea, but at the time, we had some pretty horrible bugs that made PvE and PvP semi unplayable, so bug fixing should have been the priority. Also, the Challenge format really seemed to fizzle fast, once it became clear that only a few people would reap the rewards. So far, nothing is Wurm is a quick experience. Dota type games have huge draw with the fast matches, but in Wurm, the shortest events last many hours. If we have a pvp match up that could allow people to get in for a burst of fun and get back out to RL (or PvE), it might open up to huge potential. Edited March 8, 2016 by Wurmhole 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 8, 2016 The only way I can see 'burst of fun' and 'pvp' is if tiny servers were generated with pre-built deeds, A vs B, tools, stock, ammo, whatever raiding gear that's required is pre-generated and you all go ham, or a dev designed 'Capture the Flag' style game but that's the far opposite of what the PvP in wurm has always been about, it's more of a freedom style minigame for a burst of fun.. Only sort of way I can see a 'burst of fun, carry on with RL' with how the PvP works currently is a 'raiding window' and the enemy has to pre-warn when they will raid. Meaning both teams can prepare people, and resources to the raid, which is also a bit pants. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 8, 2016 Really neat ideas MD. Planned Raid events could really help the smaller teams. Micro servers seem to be int he works already, with some of the info leaking recently, like horses with voidwalker traits (or whatever it is called). Would be a real treat to have players participate in the design of deeds in the micro server instances for PvP. Could literally have everyone designing deeds, then the best ones get picked and added into a pool of starting deeds that each team can choose from. Keep cycling new player submitted deeds into the mix, so the PvP home bases never get stale. We know from WU that a new server instance can be spun up in a minute or less. Could make some great no-drop, no-trade rewards that players could proudly display in PvE. Custom flags for their deeds, ships, wagons - capes? I'd even be tempted to jump in. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 8, 2016 MD Thats already a thing on WU. Its Called RP PvP. You can't kill without RP, RDM(Random Death Matching) Is punishable, When a deed/town/village is designated to be raided, GM sets a time and a timer until the raid(usually 24~ hours) and if you die, your dead. Cant go back until the event is over. Once its over, All attacking forces retreat and whoever lives/works there can return or the town can just be abandoned.. Iv played one and partook in two events, I wouldn't say its the most fun iv had but its interesting to say the least. It gets a crowd going but not something id overly enjoy 24/7. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 8, 2016 (edited) This was epics server populations 2 years ago to the date, at the same time today we had 52 people online vs 291 in 2014. Edited March 8, 2016 by Darklords 5 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 8, 2016 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Darklords said: This was epics server populations 2 years ago to the date, at the same time today we had 52 people online vs 291 in 2014. bahahaha i bet this will get deleted so fast. nothing speaks more true of the current pvp situation than the graph paired with todays population. just merge the servers already, ffs. or do the usual wurm thing and wait about two years too late and wonder why it didn't work when theres a total of 30 players between both servers. everyone i know would come back for that, but they certainly wont if the combined population is still lower than one server is now. Edited March 9, 2016 by Propheteer 5 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 9, 2016 But guyyyyyys its just the normal population drop for this time of year... come on 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 9, 2016 I always says there is more pvp and drama on freedom then on chaos... i realy wish gms will sort that what happend to mr 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 9, 2016 5 hours ago, Naio said: I understand you keep saying the same thing. i don't know who they are and haven't heard those names before. My guess is a lot of people in MR don't know anything about it either, because they joined MR after it happened. MR right now is probably 50-60 unique active players, and another 100 or so that are semi-active. What one or a few people did doesn't mean that everyone in the kingdom condones it or that the whole kingdom is responsible, or that you can blame anyone in MR for what those people did in the past. Not sure you're american - but it's the equivalent of saying "oh you're a republican? So, you want to build a wall to keep mexicans out, like Trump?". No, just because you're a part of a community or group, doesnt mean that you are one entity that has a single hivemind and all have the same opinions and agree on everything. I'm not saying "JK SUCKS" or "HOTS SUCKS" im saying that - people like Hashirama play with out-of-game means which i think are not fun. BUILD WALL 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 9, 2016 WTS Emoo, PM me if interested, I have more than 30body. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 9, 2016 The wall will be built, and MEXICO is going to pay for it. No but really, that merge idea people push around, what stats and items do I keep? Epics or Freedoms Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 9, 2016 I'm not really sure where the whole "this will get deleted so fast" idea comes from, as long as you keep within the rules and avoid staff/dev bashing posts you are fine, if you have any questions as to a post being removed simply contact a forum mod. We're aware of the issues plaguing both pvp on chaos and pvp on epic, and are very keen on addressing them, I've spoken to more than half of you in the past few weeks and continue to ensure that the feedback I get is from as many sources as possible. I know PvP is in a slump, but I also know that I'm not alone in wanting to see it improve, and neither are the players, we will be taking action to improve PvP. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 9, 2016 (edited) 4 hours ago, Gavin said: Throughout Chaos's history developers and GM's stepped in and either changed mechanics or slapped a kingdom in the face when they got too powerful, I'm sure MR are going to say my post is just whinging we need to get gud etc but the truth is every kingdom before them got nerfed when they were too powerful. BL had so many nerfs slapped on them when JK was getting wrecked and then when JK started getting too powerful we got nerfed too and mechanics changed to prevent us from hogging lots of land. For example when JK was very strong we had the WL moved away from us because MR couldn't get past Valhalla, Rolf reset artifacts like 5 times because we kept getting them all, drains from deeds were massively increased, catapult damage increased, upkeep costs increased, magranon champs were taken away from us, Fo champs nerfed significantly after I went Fo champ etc etc at the time JK and BL felt unfairly targeted but in hindsight it was necessary. I really like the term snowball, as it rolls down the hill it gets bigger and bigger until someone whacks it with a shovel - but there has been a complete disinterest from GM's and dev's to do anything about balancing Chaos ever since Epic was introduced. The issue is these snowball mechanics whilst they can be enjoyed by anyone; they overwhelmingly benefit the kingdom that has the most players. What mechanics? A few examples: - Twitter alarms allowing you to see when any of your 500 deeds have someone trip the border, land hogging is no longer a disadvantaging - If the above wasn't bad enough; through use of /vteleport and /vinvite or karma teleport you can teleport to any deed on the map easily. Previously when JK dominated we used /suicide to spawn at allied deeds (you could spawn at any allied deed) and Rolf went NOPE.AVI and removed it literally the next day I don't understand why /vteleport and karma teleport is so sacred and not removed when it's even worse because it's the same thing except you parachute in with your entire inventory - remove informer (seriously wtf is this not removed yet, EVERYONE says it should go) - Rare boats, hell horses allowing extremely fast travel - HoTA is dumb because it's in a static location so easy to control, the kingdom who controls hota has the capacity to sell HoTA statues to Freedom and has effectively unlimited funding for their war deeds - Meditation buffs specifically SoTG - Combine SoTG with LT - Combined SoTG, LT with sorcery buffs (ie continnum, 10% reduction) and some players need 50 hits to die - With the 'deed fix' allowing odd shaped deeds upkeep was made very cheap, even a s100 deed is very cheap now - this in my opinion was when Chaos started going downhill and all of the 'war deeds' stated being placed - deeds are simply far too cheap now. When I first started to play PvP all you needed was armor (even studded and chain was perfect) a weapon (ANY weapon, not the LS/Med Maul meta you see now) and some cotton - literally that was it. But since then so many mechanics have been introduced or buffed that require 'counters' so if you die you need to spend a week making your items again. For example archery was buffed so then everyone needs shield. Then bows were nerfed so you can only shoot a longbow at 15 tiles, med 10, short 5 - so now everyone needs to carry around 3 types of bow to be effective. Then you have venom vs farmer salve. Potions. Gems (because LoF, FP, Scorn etc are OP) don't forget nolocate ring. I know when adding these features the dev's think they are cool and niche but because of the tenacity of Chaos players either it's useless or an absolute must have that everyone makes before fighting. There is just too much of a shopping list you need to get before you can battle in PvP and this harms the ability for smaller kingdoms to recruit new players to compete, because once they realize that they need to spend 2 years grinding before they can even remotely compete they go and play some other game. I feel the same way as Gavin and i know a lot of my friends feel the same way too. So much has changed about wurm pvp in the last 2 years it no longer appeals to me. Even with the crafting updates it still takes a long time to regear and that is if you even have the skill to regear. When i was playing both on Epic and Wild, I needed a Crafting/Pvping account, a Vynora, a Fo, and a Lib priest account. Now if i wanted to priest my pvp account I had to have my crafting account and pvp account separate. Thats 5 accounts you need in order to do things yourself. I hate having to wait on people so yes, in my wurm history i owned up to 5 accounts. Imagine waiting a day for a gear set not even full enchanted and dying with it in pvp. A set of gear you can lose within seconds. It sucks. It never happen to me, but it did to the players i was gearing. That however isn't even the worst of our problems. Now you need sorcery items, Moon metal and SOTG. The kingdom with the most players and the easiest mission gets to win the sorvery item, The kingdom with the biggest group at hota wins the moon metal. You can't play in small groups like you use to anymore. The currently meta is one super deed that everyone lives in. Just get a big group to raid? Forget that, not with the current siege mechanic. With what we have its impossible to out damage a repairer. Edited March 9, 2016 by AceRifle Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 9, 2016 35 minutes ago, Retrograde said: I'm not really sure where the whole "this will get deleted so fast" idea comes from, as long as you keep within the rules and avoid staff/dev bashing posts you are fine, if you have any questions as to a post being removed simply contact a forum mod. We're aware of the issues plaguing both pvp on chaos and pvp on epic, and are very keen on addressing them, I've spoken to more than half of you in the past few weeks and continue to ensure that the feedback I get is from as many sources as possible. I know PvP is in a slump, but I also know that I'm not alone in wanting to see it improve, and neither are the players, we will be taking action to improve PvP. Merge 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 9, 2016 Merge? Like epic and chaos?If the pvp servers need merging, close the border between wild and freedom, unless all epic players suffer a heavy nerf, I can see no other *fair* way to the freedom cluster for all the toons incoming to flood into wild and then onto freedom as they are currently doing. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 9, 2016 How about define what drives both types of pvp and ensure that both get the attention they need? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 9, 2016 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Retrograde said: How about define what drives both types of pvp and ensure that both get the attention they need? How about merge There should be no "both types of pvp" should be 1 type. one pvp server that consolidates the playerbase that enjoy doing the same thing. Edited March 9, 2016 by Josh Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 9, 2016 35 minutes ago, Retrograde said: I'm not really sure where the whole "this will get deleted so fast" idea comes from, as long as you keep within the rules and avoid staff/dev bashing posts you are fine, if you have any questions as to a post being removed simply contact a forum mod. We're aware of the issues plaguing both pvp on chaos and pvp on epic, and are very keen on addressing them, I've spoken to more than half of you in the past few weeks and continue to ensure that the feedback I get is from as many sources as possible. I know PvP is in a slump, but I also know that I'm not alone in wanting to see it improve, and neither are the players, we will be taking action to improve PvP. O O O O ME ME, I CAN ANSWER THIS. Its because stuff just disappears that breaks no rules or even FUD. Like my post in this: (Its back now tho, Got it put back since it broke no rules) A lot of posts of ours are just disappearing. Even tho they add to a discussion, If its extremely valid it will be removed, I personally feel someones working against people who are saying "theres something wrong with the game" etc and just removing anything they post, but thats just me ^^ 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 9, 2016 47 minutes ago, Retrograde said: We're aware of the issues plaguing both pvp on chaos and pvp on epic, and are very keen on addressing them, I've spoken to more than half of you in the past few weeks and continue to ensure that the feedback I get is from as many sources as possible. I know PvP is in a slump, but I also know that I'm not alone in wanting to see it improve, and neither are the players, we will be taking action to improve PvP. What would help is making a new feedback thread. In this feedback thread explain to us some of the major issue you've heard and then explain to us what the dev team thinks should be done. This is the best way of communication. You stated you've talked to more then half of us, but for all i know your talking to someone who started playing yesterday. On top of that a lot of people have already left so the best thing to do is reread old feedback threads. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 9, 2016 1 minute ago, AceRifle said: What would help is making a new feedback thread. In this feedback thread explain to us some of the major issue you've heard and then explain to us what the dev team thinks should be done. This is the best way of communication. You stated you've talked to more then half of us, but for all i know your talking to someone who started playing yesterday. On top of that a lot of people have already left so the best thing to do is reread old feedback threads. That will be happening in time, I've been in TS with nearly every chaos kingdom (does hots use TS?) and several Epic kingdoms, i've also been in forum PM's with them and will be collecting my report for the dev team shortly. Once that is done I'll work with the dev team in not only identifying what needs fixing, but timeframes and approaches. From there the plan will be put to the community not just for feedback but so players are well aware what is coming and have a realistic expectation of when, not all changes can be immediate, and some require a much longer process, but we hope to be as transparent as possible with whats coming 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 9, 2016 I also have 7 years of Wurm pvp experience, most of my "crew" of 7-10 people also have similar experience times as I do. I would be happy to speak with you sometime Retrograde about what we think can fix pvp. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 9, 2016 1 minute ago, FranktheTank said: I also have 7 years of Wurm pvp experience, most of my "crew" of 7-10 people also have similar experience times as I do. I would be happy to speak with you sometime Retrograde about what we think can fix pvp. That'd be great, it's more about taking feedback as to what is broken, but im always willing to listen to ideas as well. Unless it's building a wall again, I feel I've heard that one before. Shoot me a PM if you want to chat there, or let me know when/where you and your friends would be free to talk Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 9, 2016 10 minutes ago, Retrograde said: That will be happening in time, I've been in TS with nearly every chaos kingdom (does hots use TS?) and several Epic kingdoms, i've also been in forum PM's with them and will be collecting my report for the dev team shortly. Once that is done I'll work with the dev team in not only identifying what needs fixing, but timeframes and approaches. From there the plan will be put to the community not just for feedback but so players are well aware what is coming and have a realistic expectation of when, not all changes can be immediate, and some require a much longer process, but we hope to be as transparent as possible with whats coming Thats great. Rolf and the dev team really need to play the game too. We nknow Rolf doesn't because he tried epic and quit epic. Can you believe that? Thats how you know something sucks. All we can do is wait and hope things changes for the best. Keep doing you and ignore the trolls. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 9, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, Retrograde said: I'm not really sure where the whole "this will get deleted so fast" idea comes from, as long as you keep within the rules and avoid staff/dev bashing posts you are fine, if you have any questions as to a post being removed simply contact a forum mod. Firstly, there's a long-standing history of posts getting deleted and users never knowing. Yes if you ask you'll be told why, and often times re-added because the mod that reviews it wasnt the mod that removed it and disagrees with the first assessment. But, all that relies on the user reading through the history of a thread and realizing their post isnt there. It's the only forum i've ever been on where posts get deleted without a notification to the user, and in most forums, posts are simply mod edited and offending content is removed and people get a warning. As you probably know/realize, here, posts are deleted and nothing said about it so often times you're unaware you were breaking a rule or what that rule is. That being said, for this thread specifically - a good portion of it was deleted at one point, it was into it's 3rd page and then went to the beginning of the first page. Though it seems some (but not all) have been re-added since. I'm not sure why everyone's was deleted, but one person asked and the response given by the forum mod was "spreading fear uncertainty and doubt about the future of the game." So, I disagree with you - people staying within rules are having their posts deleted because they speak negatively of Wurm. Hope that helps. Edited March 9, 2016 by Naio 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 9, 2016 Its the Trump forum wall to keep out the naysayers Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
