Atlas

Wurm 2016

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1 minute ago, Zerocool said:

Posts have gotten too long to read. Why don't the people pushing for a new engine pick a version of WU to work from and start their own project porting the client? Could even open source it.

 

Illegal. Thats why. One slip could land you a huge fine. 

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Only if the copyright holder follows up on it. I give you Minecraft mods.

 

Edit: Also, you get a cease and desist first unless there is proof of heavy damages.

Edited by Zerocool

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Wasn't this thread about what you think would improve the game, not what you think about what everyone else thinks would improve the game? Seems 2 pages were lost in useless arguing about the latter.

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I just wanna know why it went from people with the skillset to participate arguing about starting a project to dead when I suggested just open sourcing it.

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Sup atlas, homie.

 

What I wish for 2016 is that they remove player gods for this game and they somehow make libila/BL/hots matter again. 

 

BL is totally useless nowadays and there is absolutely no reason to be BL anymore, all WL kingdoms can use our spells and the only unique thing we have now is mycelium, this makes me real sad and is totally not in line with any lore.

 

But I think it's too late and won't be fixed because too many people are already having player gods priests and BL doesn't have more then a handfull of players anyways on both clusters. So who gives a ###### about the last remaining players ;)

 

Rest in peace Libila. Once u were special.

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1 hour ago, LorenaMontana said:

Sup atlas, homie.

 

What I wish for 2016 is that they remove player gods for this game and they somehow make libila/BL/hots matter again. 

 

BL is totally useless nowadays and there is absolutely no reason to be BL anymore, all WL kingdoms can use our spells and the only unique thing we have now is mycelium, this makes me real sad and is totally not in line with any lore.

 

But I think it's too late and won't be fixed because too many people are already having player gods priests and BL doesn't have more then a handfull of players anyways on both clusters. So who gives a ###### about the last remaining players ;)

 

Rest in peace Libila. Once u were special.

 

Come play Wurm Unlimited and NOT on Mythmoor with twenty god keys. Libila is special here ^^

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I am not a person with IT background, but i think that sunvortex is way off. My reasoning, why the hell should i want to not get any updates for 2 years to make the game easier to mod? All i saw was you saying that everyone should want the game to move to unity or unreal. I do not. I understand that you dl the free trial and in 15 mins you could ride a horse but its not that simple or is it? Now why should CC shut down their current projects, tell their players who pay for the product: Hey, we are gonna work on making it 3D for easier modding, chance for all of you to submit different items ingame later, but for 1,5 or 2 years you will get nothing. Why? And you are saying getting more people, paying for unreal engine the 5% and still its not 100% if it will work or how it would work. I don´t want that.

Edited by Wulfgarr

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7 hours ago, Wulfgarr said:

I am not a person with IT background, but i think that sunvortex is way off. My reasoning, why the hell should i want to not get any updates for 2 years to make the game easier to mod? All i saw was you saying that everyone should want the game to move to unity or unreal. I do not. I understand that you dl the free trial and in 15 mins you could ride a horse but its not that simple or is it? Now why should CC shut down their current projects, tell their players who pay for the product: Hey, we are gonna work on making it 3D for easier modding, chance for all of you to submit different items ingame later, but for 1,5 or 2 years you will get nothing. Why? And you are saying getting more people, paying for unreal engine the 5% and still its not 100% if it will work or how it would work. I don´t want that.

For several reasons - and good questions, very good questions and ill try to give you good answers.

 

The discussion about moving to Unreal Unity has been floating about for the last couple years. The devs have floated it around and some good discussions concerning it were pushed but really nothing came of it. At the time there was a lot going on, new devs, lots of updates, lots of future promise and it looked like the game was setting itself up in a really good positive position. This unfortunately simply didnt work out the way most hoped it would and we slid back into old habits and complacency topped off with a lot more cynicism which has prevailed ever since, until the announcement of WU. WU has shown, without question, that a lot of the ideas in the suggestion threads are not only valid, but very good. It has shown that people prefer a less grindier game, and its put in place a promise of what wurm could be. Unfortunately there is a cost to everything, and the cost here is a large and continuing decline in subs for WO.

 

When WU was first announced my immediate concerns were how anyone would mod this and then not have those mods immediately stepped on by any updates that were pushed. No real answer except - the modders will figure it out / "code around us". Well they did....sort of....using injection though is just a hacking technique and nearly every game published since 2011 has a mod button somewhere. Game developers everywhere started seeing and realizing that they didnt need to try and keep up with all content requests, they could just give the players the tools to do it themselves, and it worked, it worked great. Its now gone so far as to be an expectation and if you dont have a modding infrastructure your working on putting one in. So since Warlander was the one cheerleading it, I knew he was aware of all this and I knew if there was any Wurm dev that wanted to see a true modding infrastructure go in, it would be him. So maybe this whole WU thing was not just a good thing, but a ground floor investment in the furture of where Wurm was going. -------Unfortunately its looking more and more like this is not the case--------

 

Wurm has some serious problems, its showing its age in the code and in its thinking as a whole. It has a variety of player retention issues, its based on a homemade game structure written in Java, and a variety of little pin prick issues that are in and of themselves not really a big deal but cumulatively serve as one big ugly stick. Aside from all the good that releasing WU did - it failed to do one big thing - solve any problems - It proved a ton of things, but unfortunately, didnt solve any issues. If anything it has given contrast to a lot of those issues and perhaps exacerbated them to one degree or another. Now that being said - It "could have" solved some problems, had certain things been in place, like a modding infrastructure or at least a plan to go forward with this. But when you ask about it you get -Its too big / there are not enough subs / WO is the flagship /takes too much time. And here is where the meat of the issue is - Not Enough Time.

 

I have heard this Not Enough Time excuse for years, on all kinds of issues and projects. Its always about the time it takes. I have heard every dev say it, I have heard Rolf preach it, its just the recurring theme of Wurm development - not enough devs, not enough time, always this has been the issue cited. Ok so how does one solve such an issue. You could hire more devs - this has been tried, they hang out here for a while then leave for all kinds of reasons. So for Wurm this hasnt really worked well. So what else can you do -well you can increase the development throughput by focusing on bug fixing and a lot of smaller content . This is fine but it still doesnt fix the issue, as it may look good in patch notes to see a laundry list of stuff worked on its effects are not enough to drive new subs and push the game in any direction. In fact these approaches have at best just kept a pulse to the game. Buying time, if you will.

 

So since the problem is the amount of time it takes to do projects that have any hope of driving new subs to the game, then it makes sense to look at what is really needed to actually and realistically do this. That would mean moving to a real game engine. A game engine will give you the structure, workflow and efficiency to do projects that are now considered "too big". Lets float some examples.

 

#1 Collision - It took ages to get bridges done -Why - collision - Collision in Unity is drag n drop - on most any item in game. Took CC months to figure out collision for bridges and they still have tons of issues with collision. Move to UU(Unity/Unreal) problem is literally solved. Look at the time saved. Months. Now any project they want to do, that would involve collision, is no longer the big bad plate full of problems it was, so it becomes viable. Not so much time needed.

 

#2 Jumping / Flying / Combat - The collision model in UU fixes jumping and flying instantly - no coding needed. Its not even a project -its inherent. Not even a single line of code needed. Combat has an entirely new set of classes so everyone gets all the things they have wanted / yelled about over the years in a combat system. Youll code here quite a bit to suit needs, but its all scripting, MUCH MUCH quicker than using a low level language like Java. --- Rolf is still talking about jumping  /Flying and it hasnt happened - why? -problems with collision and not enough time. Moving to UU = Fixed. Im not advocating putting them in, just using it as a point to illustrate time savings.

 

#3 Art and New Assets - Art takes a long time regardless of the engine you run on, indeed its an entirely separate issue when talking about creating art. CC just lost an art dev, so its getting really farfetched to imagine that they will be pumping out many new graphics anytime soon. This is not to say that Saramon wont be doing his dead level best, but a loss in staff is a loss in content period. With UU you have this available - The Unity Asset Store -  anyone whether player or developer can download the art here and use it either in WO or WU. Prices range from Free on up. There are no shortage of people developing art for the asset store so this would assure new content for CC and players for the forseeable future without worrying about how many art devs stay or leave.

This is a monstrous amount of time saved in development. The amount of time saved here simply cannot be overstated.

 

So by moving to a real game engine like UU you make the future possible by solving a problem, the biggest problem that has ever existed in Wurm - Not Enough Time.

Will it fix everything? NO of course not

But by introducing new solutions your by default introducing an entirely new set of problems - Correct - a new set of issues that have and are being addressed by some of the best coders in the world supported by a monstrously huge community of people doing support and sharing thier solutions via the web. And its all about 1 thing---UU---- 

It Costs too much - Unless your Rolf - you dont know this. Unity is dirt cheap. If you dont have the money for a handful of Unity licenses -the company is going to fold within a few days so it really doesnt matter. Unreal is rather expensive, but you get what you pay for and hands down the graphics capability in Unreal is second to none. Thier graphics pipeline (Which comes free with it) is amazing to say the least. Worst case scenario crowd fund it right here. For Unity your simply asking for chump change. This is a false concern.

Its going to take 2 years according to devs to do this - No this is incorrect - Per the devs, they were not taking into account everyone at CC working on it. Thats 5 full time devs plus the vol devs. Break the project down into logical parts, hand those out to the correct people and your looking at 6 months to a year to get a working copy "WITH" all the improvements listed above and much much more. Moving to UU  is not just about WU....its about both WO and WU. SO there is no argument about WO being the priority as its still the priority, just on a different engine. If its to be feasable at all its going to take all hands, all devs at CC making it happen. No estimate has ever been contemplated in these terms. Its always been assesed on minimal staff working on it -hence the 2 year scenario. It comes down to this - they have to want to do it, they have to see the value in it, they have to believe that its a good way forward. Its only then will the will to pull together and make it happen exist. Regardless of a time to create debate - they can spend that time doing exactly what they have been doing for the last 10 years and get us exactly where we are now or take the time to actually move forward and get us off the treadmill. Lets float a good example here.

 

Back a couple years ago when this idea was being floated around alot, they decided against it. What would have happened had they bit the bullet then and went ahead with it. Where would we be now? It could have been done, even with the 2 year scenario with minimal staff working on it. We wouldn't be in a position where projects would be too big, WU could have been released with an integrated modding structure, we wouldnt be hearing about how long it  takes to x y or z, we would be in a position to realistically address player retention issues, we would be in a position to realistically address inumerable problems, but yet, here we are, the same place, different day, arguing the same things, hearing the same excuses, with the same problems on a treadmill to nowhere. Overrun by complaceny and defeatest attitudes.

 

There will never be a good time to do this,

There will always be concerns about doing it

There is risk involved in doing it

Its going to take a good bit of time to do this. If im guilty of underestimating the time required then the devs are just as guilty of overestimating the time required.

 

But these things are countered by the ability to solve problems-----and not just any problem----- "THE"----- problem that has plagued Wurm from day 1 -Not Enough Time.

 

I hope I have answered, at least in part, some of your questions

 

 

Edited by sunsvortex

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7 minutes ago, sunsvortex said:

Lots of wordy, contradicting nonsense without much to actually say.

 

https://sourceforge.net/

 

There are a few things in that essay that really highlight how little you know about the server side operation of the game and I would love to see you come back, head bowed over it.

 

Such qualify, very experience. Put up or shut up.

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i was against a new engine change for wurm. i thought the amount of time to implement it was not worth it. but ive changed my mind.

 

wurm will never get out of being plagued with bugs with its current code. the engine and the overall code structure needs a complete overhaul,

overwrite, to standardize and organize all classes, objects, and scripts so theres not so many exceptions which causes the spaghetti code

we currently have which in turn causes all these bugs, crashes, memory leaks, screen freezes, and lags when more than a handful of people

are in local..

 

yes it is a monumental undertaking, which is why i previously was opposed to it. But something this fundamental is needed if Wurm wants to get

to the next stage of success at this point.  or just keep on trying to milk the old engine for as long as you can.

 

thats only the programming aspect of it. on the business model end, it also needs a rework. cosmetic shop and lower monthly prices are just 2 things

that ill mention.

 

 

 

 

 

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I'm going to come outright and say that I don't have experience as a coder, or in developing a video game, for that matter.  I say that from a stand point of not being the experienced guy in the room moving into this comment.  From reading through your post Sunsvortex I get the feeling, and please do correct me if I'm mistaken, that you're not much of a developer either?  The only reason I say this is the manner of which you deliver your pitch.  Everything you said had a feel of "assumption" to it, without definitive evidence to prove those points.

 

For example, you talk about how cheap Unity is and how price is a false concern, but in that entire point you never actually gave a price quote.  It left me feeling like your research wasn't thorough and was instead based off of the comments and reviews section of an article delving into that specific engine and its features.  Not saying that is what you did, only that that is how it reads, in my opinion.

 

Another example, is when you vaguely say that the team didn't take into account how long the overhaul would take if all of the devs were working on it full-time.  You mention that they estimated 2 years to complete, but that was with ongoing updates and bug fixes taking place simultaneously.  You shaved that estimate down to 6 months to a year assuming all of the developers work full-time on the project, but where did you come up with that time-frame?  Are there any specific numbers crunched, or comments from the lead developers to confirm that number?  Not only that, but it seems like you're assuming the entire player base would be peachy with having their updates and fixes halted for the sake of a transfer to a new engine.

 

I see where you're coming from, and the points you're trying to make, but it all feels very much like hearsay and speculation to me due to the lack of hard numbers.  Don't get me wrong, not every suggestion for Wurm Online needs hard numbers and deep research to be worth while, but something as game-changing as this requires that kind of research through and through.  Thank you for your presentation, and taking the time to plot out your pitch, but to me it feels very lacking.  From an inexperienced stand point, I personally would not be won over with that pitch or moved to make changes based on the lack of depth and research to verify your claims.

Edited by Slickshot

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I won't raise the point of engine issues since that horse has already been flogged to death, reanimated and flogged to death again before being conjured as a spirit and spectrally flogged into oblivion.

 

As a priest I am biased but I'll say that magic is a big gripe in wurm.  Wurm is low fantasy so magic being overly prevelent would not fit in, however wurm feels more like a crafting game with magic added on than a crafting game with magic built in.  Currently PvE magic is broken and needs fixing, VERY few people run priest mains and almost all priests are alts (and having to run multiple toons breaks immersion, one of wurms big selling points).  I would say that magic really needs a complete overhaul in how it works on wurm, creating a model that allows PvE and PvP balance is essential.  Either extending what priests can do in a PvE context (useful minor spells that don't have a 30 min natural regen wait to cast), reducing the restrictions on them (so priests can function, if not thrive, without an alt to back them up) and really making magic a part of the world (for example using the components of "magical" creatures for more than just healing cover items) are good places to start.

 

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5 minutes ago, Slickshot said:

For example, you talk about how cheap Unity is and how price is a false concern, but in that entire point you never actually gave a price quote.  It left me feeling like your research wasn't thorough and was instead based off of the comments and reviews section of an article delving into that specific engine and its features.  Not saying that is what you did, only that that is how it reads, in my opinion.

 

https://store.unity3d.com/subscribe

Quote

$75/month

Includes all new features, improvements and fixes for subscription period, and exclusive access to services for Pro customers only.

 

https://store.unity3d.com/perpetual

Quote
$1,500

Support of Unity Pro perpetual licenses with new features, improvements, fixes and services will stop in March, 2017

 

Just so it is here. Having said all that, I haven't ever needed anything out of pro. You can do your own source control with the free version no problem. Unity could help with a lot of problems Wurm has, but it is very different in its use than what the dev team does now. Lighting would benefit, the current animations issue would probably go away by nature of using Unity's animation system, prefabs would help with handling lots of the same object in an area.

 

There is gain to be had jumping to Unity, but there is as much that will need to be done from scratch. I have no idea how you would do the tile based 2D heightmap we use in Unity as an example. You can pretty much toss any Unity tool you don't like, but you lose out on time spent reinventing the wheel and you lose out on the optimizations that Unity has already done.

 

WU source makes it possible, but that doesn't sell it and it especially doesn't sell why it is the dev team's responsibility. The company continues to operate with the existing client. The time learning Unity and switching isn't justified for them. On the flip side, anyone with enough determination could start chipping away at it right now today and show a proof of concept.

 

Just now, FranktheTank said:

FYI Unity engine has a reputation for being absolutely horrible.

Undeservedly so. You can throw together something buggy really fast in Unity, but it is a really solid engine when given a proper budget of time and effort.

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4 minutes ago, Slickshot said:

I'm going to come outright and say that I don't have experience as a coder, or in developing a video game, for that matter.  I say that from a stand point of not being the experienced guy in the room moving into this comment.  From reading through your post Sunsvortex I get the feeling, and please do correct me if I'm mistaken, that you're not much of a developer either? ( Web Developer  -16 years in IT - started coding on a commodore VIC 20 when I was 9 in BASIC -remember line numbers -I do. Have worked for some of the largest companies in the world during my time. I do only web dev stuff that is HIPPA compliant these days (and farm and make beer when I can) and this by default means DB stuff as well. I currently serve on the steering committee of a small company as well as do some freelance consulting. Everyone happy now)) The only reason I say this is the manner of which you deliver your pitch.  Everything you said had a feel of "assumption" to it, without definitive evidence to prove those points. (Its a high level fundamental issue -it will never be solved in Minutia. This is why. Its also why I am avoiding like the plague going into the minutia because the issue cannot be solved there.)

 

For example, you talk about how cheap Unity is and how price is a false concern, but in that entire point you never actually gave a price quote.  It left me feeling like your research wasn't thorough and was instead based off of the comments and reviews section of an article delving into that specific engine and its features.  Not saying that is what you did, only that that is how it reads, in my opinion. ( Why should I quote prices? Go to the respective sites and see for yourself? Its not a big deal, not to Mention the devs and Rolf all know its dirt cheap, no need to price quote, just go look for yourself and see)

 

Another example, is when you vaguely say that the team didn't take into account how long the overhaul would take if all of the devs were working on it full-time.  You mention that they estimated 2 years to complete, ( Not me -Budda said they went with 1.5 to 2 years) but that was with ongoing updates and bug fixes taking place simultaneously.  You shaved that estimate down to 6 months to a year assuming all of the developers work full-time on the project, but where did you come up with that time-frame?(Number of hours available during the time frame -a bit over 10k - And I tried to stay away from an American Work Ethic which would put hours per day on a project like this at 14. So if they could , even reluctantly move to more that 7 hours per day it could easily be accomplished in the time frame. But this is also not the issue and is drowning in Minutia because for what you get by moving to this would be something we cannot achieve in any other way - the ability to solve the biggest issue that has ever been in WURM - Not enough time.)  Are there any specific numbers crunched, or comments from the lead developers to confirm that number?  Not only that, but it seems like you're assuming the entire player base would be peachy with having their updates and fixes halted for the sake of a transfer to a new engine.(No I know they wont -and I dont care either - Sorry  -its just the way I think -Its too important _ it just adds yet another layer of excuses to keep us on a treadmill to nowhere)

 

I see where you're coming from, and the points you're trying to make, but it all feels very much like hearsay and speculation to me due to the lack of hard numbers.  Don't get me wrong, not every suggestion for Wurm Online needs hard numbers and deep research to be worth while, but something as game-changing as this requires that kind of research through and through.  Thank you for your presentation, and taking the time to plot out your pitch, but to me it feels very lacking.  From an inexperienced stand point, I personally would not be won over with that pitch or moved to make changes based on the lack of depth and research to verify your claims.

Its not about numbers -its about the future of WURM, Its about what can move us forward and what cant -there are no numbers that can describe that. Its why I am avoiding all that kind of stuff because its not going to do anything -it just doesnt have any bearing on solving a problem. The problem is not enough Devs / Not Enough Time - Doing the same thing that we have been doing for years wont solve a problem. It hasnt yet why would it? Everyone of these things serves only to justify NOT doing it. Ok Well not doing it is not getting us anywhere. And not to mention I can justify building a nuclear bomb under a daycare center -Justifications are just that Justifications -they get in the way. What is the furture of WURM going to look like? If we keep doing the same things we have been doing - itll look exactly like it is today - The time it takes doesnt matter - the cost doesnt matter - whether or not there will be a handful of people crying and whining about it doesnt matter - WO and WU will still be available - plenty of ways and means to merge - these issues are secondary to the main concern and thats fixing the problem of NOT ENOUGH TIME. Once they can start saying -yeah we have the time for that, more and more and more possibilities open up. Solutions can be put in place that today would be unthinkable.

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8 minutes ago, sunsvortex said:

Its not about numbers -its about the future of WURM, Its about what can move us forward and what cant -there are no numbers that can describe that. Its why I am avoiding all that kind of stuff because its not going to do anything -it just doesnt have any bearing on solving a problem. The problem is not enough Devs / Not Enough Time - Doing the same thing that we have been doing for years wont solve a problem. It hasnt yet why would it? Everyone of these things serves only to justify NOT doing it. Ok Well not doing it is not getting us anywhere. And not to mention I can justify building a nuclear bomb under a daycare center -Justifications are just that Justifications -they get in the way. What is the furture of WURM going to look like? If we keep doing the same things we have been doing - itll look exactly like it is today - The time it takes doesnt matter - the cost doesnt matter - whether or not there will be a handful of people crying and whining about it doesnt matter - WO and WU will still be available - plenty of ways and means to merge - these issues are secondary to the main concern and thats fixing the problem of NOT ENOUGH TIME. Once they can start saying -yeah we have the time for that, more and more and more possibilities open up. Solutions can be put in place that today would be unthinkable.

I'll come back and read the full length of this post in a bit, but for right now I stopped with "Its not about numbers."  Everything is about the numbers in business.

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3 minutes ago, Slickshot said:

I'll come back and read the full length of this post in a bit, but for right now I stopped with "Its not about numbers."  Everything is about the numbers in business.

 

Classic slickshot. Gets put down and then ignores the reply with a baited attempt to derail the thread with an argument about why he should read it. Classic. 

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I want to throw a few things in here. As a dev for high value business systems i will say Java is not the issue, it is not an issue.  I have personally validated systems, written in java, mathematically and empirically, handling in excess of 1,000,000 txns per sec.  When designs are built around correct algorithms for the appropriate problems, be it design patterns or formal algorithms, the language is largely irrelevant.  With that said it is known that Java tends to be slower, but almost all of that is implementation and a small part is the JIT, bytecode is not the same as assembly unless the dev understands the compilation and develops toward optimizing the resulting bytecode.  And just to be clear Java has won more than one performance benchmark competition and there are a number of common, very high performance systems written in Java, if you disagree look it up.

 

In my experience, some of these devs i am sure have been around for a while i am sure, but they may not be aware of something they are saying.  Generally, and in my experience, if a SME says it will take X amount of time, then it will take 1.5x - 2X that time.  They say 2 for a rewrite, then it will take 3-4 years and that will be if they stop and focus on just that.  If they are going to continue to do ongoing support possibly more, definitely more if only 3 devs.  To do a rewrite on this scale requires a larger, existing team; three devs can only work on 1-2 things at a time, assuming every class can be rewritten (or validated after static port) per day you are talking nearly 2 years.  The cyclomatic complexity of some of the methods are high enough that even assuming using standard tools and call graphs some of the rewritten objects will take days to validate...and that all assumes a naive (and likely bad) rewrite.  A proper rewrite would be a full extrapolation of the design and greenfield develop as a 2.0.

 

Looking at the code as i can see it there are some optimizations that can be done both in terms of algorithms and some in design.  I am not sure what the 3D arg is really about as there is already facility in what i see in the decompiled WU code to support dev toward 3d; there is a 2d plane and you have height (flying GMs and jumping exist) so the the roadblock to the next few steps is not obvious to me if you want there to be ID layers will take longer, but now you have {x,y},height, which can be formalized in a couple iterations to {x,y,z{n,s,e,w}} where z is a continuous float starting from water in layers (center of the tile) and the cardinal corners from rock in layers (dirts) which allows for optimized transformation physics and mesh-wise... not a suggestion and i am sure you thought of and possibly discarded it due the part left out, but a statement that hopefully will elicit a response explaining the 2d/3d issue.  Otherwise there are several tools that can be utilized to fix some of the complexity and some minor structure changes would make some things more extensible, though a lot is lost in the translation.  What some call disorganized is simply normal organic development from what i can tell and is comparable to some fixes i have been brought in for where a lot of acquisitions and code merges have happened, i.e. a lot of different styles and disciplines have touched the code.  In addition, the structure in many places appears to be for optimal load times and play.

 

I have to say, after seeing a lot of comments about state of the WU code....What some of you call messy or whatever from the WU code is misrepresented; talking bad about decompiled code is like pulling everything out of someone's cloths hamper and making fun of the dirtiness and wrinkles; i consider people who do so to be highlighting their ignorance for the world.

 

I have worked on a lot of different systems and as a contractor for a lot of different companies and actually do know the differences underneath between game development and engines.  I also intimately know differences between many languages especially C/C++ and Java. I say without ego that my credentials are not questionable.  I studied to be a game dev, but then discovered that the pay is less, the consumers seem to hate you no matter what (in general only feed back is from angry and generally irrational customers), and if not careful it can suck the life out of your passion, so i watched my friends hate/not hate their (gamer dev) jobs while i have loved nearly every position i have been in since becoming a dev 16+ years ago. 

 

I would love to help if i can, i do not have a lot of time, could not even fix the tiny bit of code i wanted to suggest to get metal altars moving (i will eventually get to it), i have little spare time (that i wish to spend on another job) but i can offer help with algorithms, proofs; pretty much what i do now is take apart, troubleshoot, and optimize extremely high value high throughput business systems 

Edited by ClericGunem

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10 minutes ago, Slickshot said:

I'll come back and read the full length of this post in a bit, but for right now I stopped with "Its not about numbers."  Everything is about the numbers in business.

Sort of - this particular issue is about the ability to --Keyword---- "Create"------ numbers. Has nothing to do with existing numbers except to show its time to do it and stop making excuses not to.

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Just keep in mind that Unity prices are per developer, not per game/company. Also, cost is not only measured in money, but also in time and knowledge (mastering language and its environment can take from 2 to 5 years of everyday use - and even after this time you still constantly get better and better).

 

Sunvortex, when it comes to collisions and jumping - both of them must be done on server, so engine switch wouldn't change anything in speed of implementing most features except the need to add more complicated procedures of keeping client and server in sync.

In case of MMO's, client shouldn't have any actual logic done inside - this means that all the stuff like collisions, moving or even looking around must be done server side where using the engine is not a good idea.

 

Art assets... There are lots of sites focused just on them, and - as art is not engine specific - it can be taken from anywhere. :)

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I am not sure why people say java, the client seems pretty optimized and runs well on everything I have tried so far.

 

The move to f2p, I have mixed feelings about. I have rarely ever stayed f2p on any game that offers a subscription to it. I wanted the bonuses they offered so f2p never affected me either way. Some of the f2p models are pretty restrictive. If CC was to offer a f2p model and say a sub model with skill gain increase gain and discount to deed cost. How many of us would really stay f2p?

 

Cash shop, heck yeah would be nice. If silver cost was the same as the population sales. I would rather buy it from CC to be honest. Cosmetic items, yes I would spend money on those. Power ups yes please. Rolf may turn green at the thought of a cash shop but they make money and people use them. I know I would.

 

Better Marketing would help some as well. I only remembered Wurm when I bumped into it on a archived thread when I was looking for survival games and crafting games. I had played a long time ago and had forgotten about it. So a more active presence online would help some. I am in no way a marketing person but I am sure there are several places that wurm online name could be pushed out to more people.

 

MMORPG.com sweepstakes? I used to get on those all the time. Only won minor things but still put the games name out there. Even if I did not play it I was joining in on the possible uber wins.

 

EDIT

I wanted to add this - I am a developer, coder whatever you want to call it. I have extensive experience in it. As that is pretty much all I have done in the last 30+ years. Java being one of the languages I use today. Unity only the last few years for gaming and mods. I have to say Unity is a sweet thing but it is also a pain in the rear. And while some portions may seem like it is drag and drop (and it can be from a new project standpoint) converting something like WO to unity would make your eyes bleed literally. I have helped on a similar projects. It was easier to just start fresh. WO does not need to be changed to Unity, it needs more core coding for assets like costumes etc. I think some of that is coming because the model changes will help in render speed and other things that were causing visual lag due to storage and load issues. These will probably change moving forward.  

 

I have not looked into this so maybe someone can pm about it. But art assets, is there a repo? I have some ideas on some modifications for a few items and new items, I wanted to dabble with. But I have no idea how they are stored nor what would be best to export them as.

Edited by Saicotic

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To the Devs credit they are fixing problems with the coding, since a lot of Wurm was programmed by Developers that left over the years which makes it harder to go though

 

Seem like they want to do some major server-side coding re-rights before looking at 3rd party engines

 

Also I don't recall terraforming on UE4 or Unity engines

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"ctual logic done inside - this means that all the stuff like collisions, moving or even looking around must be done server side"

 

Wanted to add to Warlander's comment about collision's and stuff...if you do not do it server side you get exploiters like ESO's teleporting gold farmers (Zenimax is a baby game company, but should have known better)

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20 minutes ago, Warlander said:

Just keep in mind that Unity prices are per developer, not per game/company. Also, cost is not only measured in money, but also in time and knowledge (mastering language and its environment can take from 2 to 5 years of everyday use - and even after this time you still constantly get better and better). Look - I do not want for this to sound like im attacking your skills or you personally because its just not what I want to do or the point - Java skills =  Java Script Skills, Lots of people know C#, Every College in the US has a bloody Unity program going on now and everyone and thier brother are picking it up and running with it. I am assuming its something similar in Europe In terms of cost -you and the rest of the devs get to put UU development in your CV going forward - Developer ROI yes, you agree with that? Subscription to Lynda.com arguably the best support available for damn near anything computer based. Please take a look - they offer direct training on Unity and Unreal -You dont need to master everything up front, you just dont, you need to be able to make it work until you can master it. Every university in the research triangle here in the US provides this to thier staff...there is a really good reason for it. Check it out. Free trial for 10 days. I would beg you to just give it a look.

 

Sunvortex, when it comes to collisions and jumping - both of them must be done on server, so engine switch wouldn't change anything in speed of implementing most features except the need to add more complicated procedures of keeping client and server in sync.

In case of MMO's, client shouldn't have any actual logic done inside - this means that all the stuff like collisions, moving or even looking around must be done server side where using the engine is not a good idea. (I completely agree, back a couple years ago when we were floating this is was my primary concern with Unity because so much is done clientside. I have allready stated that this would be the biggest issue in my mind as its going to be where the most work will be focused. I know...but I dont think that should be used as an excuse to not do it.

 

Art assets... There are lots of sites focused just on them, and - as art is not engine specific - it can be taken from anywhere. :)I 100% completely agree. I use Unity asset store as its a perfect example. We could get art anywhere. Not just be reliant on a small dev team which by default addresses the not enough time issue.

 

Edited by sunsvortex

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