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2 minutes ago, akaedis said:

-Less FPS issues with lets say lighting, shadows, travelling

-Less memory leaks from the simplist of things such as zooming your map in and out repeatedly, Or travelling down a hill and back up again.

-60FPS and 4k Resolution could be a possibility.

-The client wouldn't crash and burn when beyond 40 players in local. 

-Modding. Currently adding lets say a new model is like trying to figure out how to put a lego set together with half the instructions. You get half of it right then the other half is broken. With a new engine, introducing new content thats been asked for years could boom exponentially. One of the reasons you haven't seen many WU mods that do anything of the sort is simply because modding is so painful to do its not worth doing right now. If i could introduce new weapons or bridges easier, i would of had my static drawbridge and no dachi already ingame, but i dont, and i wont anytime soon with this train wreck of a client. 

-Oh and also, We more then likely wouldn't have to receive 1GB files EVERY DANG UPDATE. That probably hurts CC's hosting bills too i bet, Since theres 3400+ people downloading this file every update. 

 

Fun fact, this is also a list of many important things a bad port could botch.

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16 minutes ago, Zerocool said:

If a programming problem has crossed your field of view, it means someone smarter than you couldn't make it trivial in 5 minutes or you need a very specific solution and surprise! Game dev is hard in both respects. Different problems doesn't mean easier and I don't think I even brought up legacy.

 

So no, it isn't fair to sum up my points in any capacity. I gave you a very diverse answer to a very broad question.

 

Got what you said a long time ago about it not being practical to port Wurm over to an engine.  I think you make a compelling business case against a port.  What I'm curious about is your view of how out of date Wurm is by modern design methods and compared to modern methods, how much is this holding Wurm back?

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53 minutes ago, akaedis said:

 

Simply put, In the grand scheme of things, Yes. A new client would be entirely beneficial for all corners of the board. Developers, Casual players, new comers, Modders, You name it. all would reap benefits from a new client.

 

The benefits being just to name a few:

-Less FPS issues with lets say lighting, shadows, travelling

-Less memory leaks from the simplist of things such as zooming your map in and out repeatedly, Or travelling down a hill and back up again.

-60FPS and 4k Resolution could be a possibility.

-The client wouldn't crash and burn when beyond 40 players in local. 

-Modding. Currently adding lets say a new model is like trying to figure out how to put a lego set together with half the instructions. You get half of it right then the other half is broken. With a new engine, introducing new content thats been asked for years could boom exponentially. One of the reasons you haven't seen many WU mods that do anything of the sort is simply because modding is so painful to do its not worth doing right now. If i could introduce new weapons or bridges easier, i would of had my static drawbridge and no dachi already ingame, but i dont, and i wont anytime soon with this train wreck of a client. 

-Oh and also, We more then likely wouldn't have to receive 1GB files EVERY DANG UPDATE. That probably hurts CC's hosting bills too i bet, Since theres 3400+ people downloading this file every update. 

 

Thank you for this.  Exactly the type of information I'm looking for.  Having said that, I accept a port is not feasible for a 1001 reasons.  But I'm still curious, are there things the current platform does better or makes it easier to work with than a more modern approach?

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4 hours ago, sunsvortex said:

Let me ask you this then -when is the right time? In all honesty, there will never be a right time.

 

 

For clarity I am not stating that a new game engine wouldn't make a difference. Perhaps it would, I personally don't know.

 

What I meant by my comment was if I was a small game company with extremely limited resources and I had to make a focused effort to make a direction change then I would prioritize fixing the middle-end game parts for a bigger portion of the player base over fixing an engine. Let's say that all of your estimates are correct and execution happened exactly like you propose so that it's done in six months. 

 

The problem is momentum, right now momentum appears to be swinging in the direction of a smaller game population rather then the opposite. If you want to swing things the other way then you have to continue moving things to the positive side. The way to do this initially is with all the small fixes they have been making:

 

- Get rid of quality of life complaints in the game

- Adopt as many WU mods as make sense

- Continue to get rid of bugs in both WO and WU

- Enhance the WU offering to see if you can continue to expand the WU sales (offsets WO premium losses)

 

Other things they should consider are:

 

- Merge all PVP servers in WO into one server. Do something reasonable to bring epic skill inline with Chaos skills. All of the WU servers are also suffering from lack of PVP population so WO has a real chance at getting it all back if they do it right

- Take a page from WU. Why does every WO server have to have the same exact skill/action timer? Consider splitting current freedom into multiple skill/action gain clusters

- Figure out how to import a deed planner deed to a WO server so that people could have easy migration between clusters etc

 

Personally I would have loved to play on the old pristine/release cluster when it was a separate cluster. I would also love to play on a survival server where I start with nothing and have to skill up from there.

 

~Nappy

 

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4 minutes ago, Nappy said:

 

For clarity I am not stating that a new game engine wouldn't make a difference. Perhaps it would, I personally don't know.

 

What I meant by my comment was if I was a small game company with extremely limited resources and I had to make a focused effort to make a direction change then I would prioritize fixing the middle-end game parts for a bigger portion of the player base over fixing an engine. Let's say that all of your estimates are correct and execution happened exactly like you propose so that it's done in six months. 

 

The problem is momentum, right now momentum appears to be swinging in the direction of a smaller game population rather then the opposite. If you want to swing things the other way then you have to continue moving things to the positive side. The way to do this initially is with all the small fixes they have been making:

 

- Get rid of quality of life complaints in the game

- Adopt as many WU mods as make sense

- Continue to get rid of bugs in both WO and WU

- Enhance the WU offering to see if you can continue to expand the WU sales (offsets WO premium losses)

 

Other things they should consider are:

 

- Merge all PVP servers in WO into one server. Do something reasonable to bring epic skill inline with Chaos skills. All of the WU servers are also suffering from lack of PVP population so WO has a real chance at getting it all back if they do it right

- Take a page from WU. Why does every WO server have to have the same exact skill/action timer? Consider splitting current freedom into multiple skill/action gain clusters

- Figure out how to import a deed planner deed to a WO server so that people could have easy migration between clusters etc

 

Personally I would have loved to play on the old pristine/release cluster when it was a separate cluster. I would also love to play on a survival server where I start with nothing and have to skill up from there.

 

~Nappy

 

I agree with most of your points.  The point about differing skill gains per server sounds too problematic and messy, so I disagree with that, and your last point confused me. Lol

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35 minutes ago, GoldFever said:

What I'm curious about is your view of how out of date Wurm is by modern design methods and compared to modern methods, how much is this holding Wurm back?

Can't tell. I don't work for them and have no view of the inside. They could be using agile methodologies and just be held back by an old system if that is what you are fishing for, sure. Again, can't stress this enough, I have no view of the inside. For all I know they are running comfortably at a hobbyist pace with the goal of maintaining Rolf's current lifestyle as steadily as possible. Or in completely the opposite direction, the team may be performing at an outstanding pace against restrictions I can't fathom. Its not fair to judge from the outside because it can only be a guess.

 

If Rolf wants to give us a comprehensive video of their process for developing the game and have a dialogue about it after, then it is possible to take a shot at that kind of question.

 

37 minutes ago, GoldFever said:

But I'm still curious, are there things the current platform does better or makes it easier to work with than a more modern approach?

These are really the types of questions staff is needed for and I think all the client devs got chased off. The closer you are to a graphics library, the more opportunity for optimizations and bugs. Beyond that, you need a dev.

 

Unity didn't get the reputation it has for being a poor engine, it got it for being so easy to use that it let you slap together something in an evening. I'm FOR an engine like Unity being used in wurm by the way, for what little that opinion matters.

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Not sure if you meant the deed planner point was confusing so in case that was the one let me explain:

 

Currently a mayor of a deed can export their deed from Wurm Online in deedplanner format. If a way to import a deed from deedplanner could be figured out then it would make it simple to give people another option when shutting down or repurposing a server. The tricky part would be making the imported deed work in the new server landscape. It would likely have to be done in a way where everything is based on relative height of the token and then the player would have to do appropriate terraforming to make the newly imported deed look natural in it's new location.

 

This option would make it possible to reduce servers for those people who would not consider switching servers if it meant losing a deed they have worked on for a long time. With this option in place then it would become very possible to allow people to migrate servers if desired while repurposing some servers to be faster skill and action timers. Of course the complication here is that freedom would shrink in size most likely.

 

 

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1 minute ago, Zerocool said:

Can't tell. I don't work for them and have no view of the inside. They could be using agile methodologies and just be held back by an old system if that is what you are fishing for, sure. Again, can't stress this enough, I have no view of the inside. For all I know they are running comfortably at a hobbyist pace with the goal of maintaining Rolf's current lifestyle as steadily as possible. Or in completely the opposite direction, the team may be performing at an outstanding pace against restrictions I can't fathom. Its not fair to judge from the outside because it can only be a guess.

 

If Rolf wants to give us a comprehensive video of their process for developing the game and have a dialogue about it after, then it is possible to take a shot at that kind of question.

 

These are really the types of questions staff is needed for and I think all the client devs got chased off. The closer you are to a graphics library, the more opportunity for optimizations and bugs. Beyond that, you need a dev.

 

Unity didn't get the reputation it has for being a poor engine, it got it for being so easy to use that it let you slap together something in an evening. I'm FOR an engine like Unity being used in wurm by the way, for what little that opinion matters.

 

Wurms code from what im told is like Spaghetti code. I personally haven't looked too much into it, iv viewed like a dozen or less scripts, I didn't really understand too much of it, Id need more experience with java and to dig deeper into the depths of WU Source to really understand what the hell is going on and to determine whether or not it is dirty code or not. But given that iv only heard that its pretty bad, i think i can take there word on it since i haven't really heard anything good about it, Actually now that i think about it, i don't think iv ever heard of seen any good comments about the client. 

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itt: people thinking unity is the greatest thing since olloch got banned for saying gary and that they could convince rolf to switch over when he won't even fix information minister

 

 

Edited by Propheteer
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Buy everyone who starts a pina colada and promise another one when they subscribe that would do great to encourage new players. No one really likes farming in wurm, everyone loves pina colada. 

 

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Can java and your engine handle Speed tree or Nvidia Turff? Is it ready for the next software that will eliminate polygons?

 

C# is ready it was being built long time ago. Anyone even know why C# was built? Anyone remember something called J++? What about the falling out between Microsoft and Oracle? Anyone know what name C# was going to be before it released with the name C#? 

 

C# was being built to be better than c, c++, and java. Microsoft developed C# for this reason which is why the code is so similar when they are put side by side. SOE has Switched to C# and some other triple A companies are starting to switch, Why?

All developers will stand by a certain language even though as time goes by a better language is created. Yes C# is strict but it is a good thing. Microsoft saw a lot of developer mistakes and did some control with it to prevent mistakes that can be done.

 

When it comes to Software and hardware I will listen to the Engineer before I do others simply put they built it and know what it is capable of. I really think Wurm online needs to think long and hard about going in to a Engine that has power and a newer language. Unity has some very powerful stuff in that engine. If developers make Sh#@t games from it you can only blame the developer not the hardware and software. A Engineer once said a quote "We have taken hardware almost to the max  still squeezing out a little more performance a year in desktop and laptops." "It is not the Hardware's fault it is the developers writing dumber code and not smarter code wanting the hardware to do all the work."  This is true. A more thought out longer code can go a lot longer than a simple short code. The problem I've seen over my time looking in code and learning is everyone is taking the quick approach with existing code written for mechanics rather than setting back drawing everything down on a board and asking them selves what do we want to do with this object and then coming up with the code. As well as planning the code for features they want to add but not at this time. By the time they get to a game being live you run into issues where it's "This would take a whole rewrite of the system to add something like that." This statement is true because they took the quick short route of existing code and how others have done it in the past.

 

So use a Language that will make you a better programmer. Use a engine that can use multiple languages in the same code. I dab with unity here and there While I learn C# and for people say Unity Engine isn't all that.  I was able to drop 3000k of 28,000 polygon trees with dropping leaf animations Physics wind system on a 2048 map and still maintain 86 fps with a map full of grass. The engine has power, the only question is who will actually use it's power.

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Don't think there is much difference between  C# and Java, it was mostly developed to sell Microsoft technologies, much the same way Java was developed to sell sun technologies solutions. personally I like C# since its closer to C syntax;

 

A lot of the negative reasons people hate Java in games has to do with portability which Java isn't really designed for, since Java is a living language with major changes always happening when compare with C++, C, and Intel 64/86 Assembly

Also means the related compilers and other parts of the language creation can be more buggy, do to more recent changes.

 

I believe things like speedtree, havoc, can be brought into custom engines if you know what you are doing

 

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8 hours ago, akaedis said:

 

Wurms code from what im told is like Spaghetti code.

He was asking about modern methodologies of development vs whatever is currently used. Quality of code doesn't mean anything given its age. Also, spaghetti code is basically slang at this point for almost any code someone felt they had to put in too much effort to understand. Without comments in the code, nobody is going to have a fun time.

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5 hours ago, enoofu said:

A lot of the negative reasons people hate Java in games has to do with portability which Java isn't really designed for

You don't need to make things up to be part of the conversation. One of the underlying goals of java was to be architecture neutral.

 

Also, why do people keep circling around to the language issue? You use the language your tools require. You can get pretty much anything done in any language, even if it wasn't built for it.

 

The only time you ever see a real performance difference in practice is when you take a highly used, highly optimized math calculation, compile it to a C/C++ library, and call it from within your application. I doubt either the dev or client team are at a point at the moment where that is a good idea to start considering. Refactoring is always a slow headache.

 

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I really have absolutely no idea regarding code or coding (Turbo Pascal was the most advanced I ever did, and nowadays VBA scripts are the best I can do :P) but isn't the basic idea of using an engine like Unity that you get rid of a lot of the basic stuff on the underlying framework that you'd otherwise have to do, optimize and redo on your own all the time? Wouldn't that really free up a lot of developer time in the long run?

 

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47 minutes ago, Eltaran said:

but isn't the basic idea of using an engine like Unity that you get rid of a lot of the basic stuff on the underlying framework that you'd otherwise have to do, optimize and redo on your own all the time? Wouldn't that really free up a lot of developer time in the long run?

Yep. Starting a project, a prebuilt engine saves a lot of time and in Unity and Unreal's cases saves some more on making tools. Wouldn't help wurm though unless those tools were better than what was already made and in use.

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1 hour ago, Zerocool said:

You don't need to make things up to be part of the conversation. One of the underlying goals of java was to be architecture neutral.

 

Also, why do people keep circling around to the language issue? You use the language your tools require. You can get pretty much anything done in any language, even if it wasn't built for it.

 

The only time you ever see a real performance difference in practice is when you take a highly used, highly optimized math calculation, compile it to a C/C++ library, and call it from within your application. I doubt either the dev or client team are at a point at the moment where that is a good idea to start considering. Refactoring is always a slow headache.

 

Java always has portability issues, since it dependent on Java version

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10 hours ago, Nappy said:

Not sure if you meant the deed planner point was confusing so in case that was the one let me explain:

 

Currently a mayor of a deed can export their deed from Wurm Online in deedplanner format. If a way to import a deed from deedplanner could be figured out then it would make it simple to give people another option when shutting down or repurposing a server. The tricky part would be making the imported deed work in the new server landscape. It would likely have to be done in a way where everything is based on relative height of the token and then the player would have to do appropriate terraforming to make the newly imported deed look natural in it's new location.

 

This option would make it possible to reduce servers for those people who would not consider switching servers if it meant losing a deed they have worked on for a long time. With this option in place then it would become very possible to allow people to migrate servers if desired while repurposing some servers to be faster skill and action timers. Of course the complication here is that freedom would shrink in size most likely.

 

 

Importing a deed from deedplanner, if I'm understanding you right, would cause deeds to poof into existence.  That seems highly problematic, exploitable, and completely against the nature of the game itself.  Did I understand you right?

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10 hours ago, Nappy said:

 

For clarity I am not stating that a new game engine wouldn't make a difference. Perhaps it would, I personally don't know.

 

What I meant by my comment was if I was a small game company with extremely limited resources and I had to make a focused effort to make a direction change then I would prioritize fixing the middle-end game parts for a bigger portion of the player base over fixing an engine. Let's say that all of your estimates are correct and execution happened exactly like you propose so that it's done in six months. 

 

The problem is momentum, right now momentum appears to be swinging in the direction of a smaller game population rather then the opposite. If you want to swing things the other way then you have to continue moving things to the positive side. The way to do this initially is with all the small fixes they have been making:

 

- Get rid of quality of life complaints in the game

- Adopt as many WU mods as make sense

- Continue to get rid of bugs in both WO and WU

- Enhance the WU offering to see if you can continue to expand the WU sales (offsets WO premium losses)

 

Other things they should consider are:

 

- Merge all PVP servers in WO into one server. Do something reasonable to bring epic skill inline with Chaos skills. All of the WU servers are also suffering from lack of PVP population so WO has a real chance at getting it all back if they do it right

- Take a page from WU. Why does every WO server have to have the same exact skill/action timer? Consider splitting current freedom into multiple skill/action gain clusters

- Figure out how to import a deed planner deed to a WO server so that people could have easy migration between clusters etc

 

Personally I would have loved to play on the old pristine/release cluster when it was a separate cluster. I would also love to play on a survival server where I start with nothing and have to skill up from there.

 

~Nappy

 

But this is exactly my point - everything your listing is the same approach that has been used for years. This approach simply has not ever worked beyond keeping a pulse to the game. Thats it. Nothing more.

Why should I believe that its going to do anything different now? The best we can hope for is a flattening out of the numbers with some short spikes in pop as new content is released, that will slowly drain away.

If were to use WU sales to continue to offset losses then you have to continually develop for it. Ok, according to Budda there are 3 people on it and they are volunteers, which according to him cannot be counted on for very valid reasons, they are after all volunteers, so they are not going to be working full time on it. This is all according to Budda - so now we have WU being put into the same paradigm as WO. Not enough devs/ not enough time.

There will always be this fight for dev time between WO and WU and, WU, per Rolf, will loose this fight as WO is the priority.  This to me is a no win scenario. It sounds like its personal.

 

So all im saying is, well solve the common issue between both. Not Enough Time - If we bite the bullet and move to a real honest to god game engine - you then start getting ways and means to move off the treadmill by making developers more efficient. You have structure, you have support, you have a much larger labor pool as both Unity and Unreal are extremely popular, you have a collision system that works, no more months at a time trying to figure out how to do flying, jumping or bridges or anything else that requires collision. You have all new classes for combat so everyone can have what they have all asked for for years, art assets from the asset store or for that matter anywhere - Right out of the box. All these things plus a lot lot more can be realized just by moving to something that allready supports it.

Yeah its going to take a bit, but when you start talking about ROI, scalability, multiple platforms, efficiency,content, support, labor pools, training -its all there. But Java (The current Wurm Structure Base) can do all this so why waste the time and money and suffer through all the frustration - because If Java can do it -  then the devs either havent had the time to build all those things in because there is not enough time or they simply dont have the skills to exploit Java to that degree. In either scenario , in all these years we havent seen any of those things, is there some reason to believe we ever will sitting on Java? Not in my mind.

Im not saying at all that the things you listed would not be a good thing to do - Im saying that all those things you listed would be that much better on a different platform.

 

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1 hour ago, Eltaran said:

I really have absolutely no idea regarding code or coding (Turbo Pascal was the most advanced I ever did, and nowadays VBA scripts are the best I can do :P) but isn't the basic idea of using an engine like Unity that you get rid of a lot of the basic stuff on the underlying framework that you'd otherwise have to do, optimize and redo on your own all the time? Wouldn't that really free up a lot of developer time in the long run?

 

yes

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9 minutes ago, sunsvortex said:

Im not saying at all that the things you listed would not be a good thing to do - Im saying that all those things you listed would could be that much better on a different platform.

 

I'm just going to address one thing from your comment.  I replaced the word would with the word could.  Potential energy.  Have to survive the transition first.  No guarantee that would happen.  Not saying it can't, just saying you certainly can't bank on it.  Can the business itself bank on it?

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35 minutes ago, Slickshot said:

I'm just going to address one thing from your comment.  I replaced the word would with the word could.  Potential energy.  Have to survive the transition first.  No guarantee that would happen.  Not saying it can't, just saying you certainly can't bank on it.  Can the business itself bank on it?

 

And here we get to the fundamental issue.  A compelling case has been made by those that know a lot more about this than I do that the business has a high likelihood of not surviving the transition.  I understand the reasons presented for this unhappy situation and just sticking our heads in the sand and ignoring these real life constraints won't make them go away.  Having said that, there seems to be a general consensus that if this were a new project, it would be a great idea to use an engine.

 

So, we appear to be caught in a classic catch-22, can't upgrade but without upgrading it is questionable if development can proceed fast enough to create the strength needed to upgrade.  Hmmm.  

 

As Issac Asimov writes, the solution is obvious. Actually, I can think of 4 that would resolve the dilemma with minimal business risk, but now we are getting into territory that it seems to me is outside the scope of these forums.

 

 

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1 hour ago, sunsvortex said:

So all im saying is, well solve the common issue between both. Not Enough Time - If we bite the bullet and move to a real honest to god game engine

 

You should record this to audio so you can just link it from youtube or something since it is all you have to say. Josh streamlined his posts by just saying merge now and frankly its more palatable than an essay every time.

 

5 minutes ago, GoldFever said:

So, we appear to be caught in a classic catch-22, can't upgrade but without upgrading it is questionable if development can proceed fast enough to create the strength needed to upgrade.  Hmmm.  

Oh boy! Does this mean we are gonna do a kickstarter to upgrade the paid subscription stopwatch game?

 

Inb4 run its course.

Edited by Zerocool

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3 hours ago, Slickshot said:

Importing a deed from deedplanner, if I'm understanding you right, would cause deeds to poof into existence.  That seems highly problematic, exploitable, and completely against the nature of the game itself.  Did I understand you right?

 

Think bigger ( not intended to be an offensive remark). Things could be put into place to limit how this is done. A simple thing would to require a silver payment and the verified removal of an existing deed following successful import at new location.

 

Here's the basic premise:

 

- We have too many servers which limits sense of community, trade etc

- People are attached to deeds that they have spent years building

- Some people care a great deal about skill grind

- Some people would vastly prefer a faster game with faster skill gain

 

WO has lots of servers, all are very low population density. Instead of having a bunch of servers that vary only in terms of geography instead move some of those servers to separate clusters. Have one cluster be two islands with fast skill gain for example. Have another cluster of three islands with medium skill gain. Have an island with PVP only (nice small island to force people to be close together which historically is a reason why PVP existed, population pressure). Make yet another cluster where every character starts new with fast skill gain and a closed off market (from outside cluster influence).

 

People put a lot of time, energy and often money into building deeds. Give them a way to move their deeds across clusters and then it becomes very possible to start changing what the various existing servers do without running as high a risk of losing people.

 

If I was to continue down the same path of different islands here are some more to consider:

 

- Market island - turn on resource/tool/weapon sinks so that things on this island actually do wear out. Turn off mail and build up that snazzy trade house capability

- Survival island - turn on the hardest way to play wurm from back in the day. People arrive on the island with nothing and fight their way up from there

- Snow island - make temperature matter here, perhaps have a short season to grow food stores, nothing grows in winter except pine trees perhaps (pine cone soup)

- Challenge island - Every 21 days the island completely resets, perhaps even rotating maps, pvp

- Exploration island - Island with randomly decaying deeds with mystery loot, treasure chests, pirate bases to destroy (think battle camp modification), lots of mobs to kill, very small area where minimal deeds are permitted, everything else stays wild.

 

WO is a premium service with managed servers. Why not leverage the existing servers to give people different Wurm variants to play? While I could do these things in WU I would love to do them in WO.

 

I would premium again in order to try out many of these WO server types if they were available to me.

 

~Nappy

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Exporting a plan and importing it elsewhere sounds interesting, but it would definitely have to be heavily restricted and monitored, and I'm unsure as to how plausible such a system would be.  I'm not a dev, so I don't know, but it sounds like it would be a huge headache.  Interesting idea though.

Edited by Slickshot

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