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Wurm 2016

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25 minutes ago, Keenan said:

So those of you saying Java is the issue:

 

Can you give me some specific reasons? Are there limitations in Java that you know about and would like to bring to our attention?

 

I mean essentially Java builds code down into a byte code, which is similar to Assembly. The JVM acts as an intermediary between this byte code and the machine code for the architecture and operating system you are running. Java is also a managed language, as is C#. I suppose it *is* an easy thing to pick on, but I'd like some constructive feedback and serious talk. :)

Its not that Java is a problem per se - its that it is a dead end platform for moving Wurm forward. If your going to look at moving Wurm forward then its really needs to move away from Java and move to Unity or Unreal. You have the Unity Asset Store - instant content that modders can use and drop in at thier liesure, assuming an integrated modding infrastructure. Top that off with player developed content as well as CC developed content and its a wonderful everyone wins scenario.

 

Wurm needs a real, honest to god, engine. One that supports decent graphics, that can be scaled, that can be accessed by players and developers alike. Using a different platform opens the game up in ways that simply are not financially possible or realistic using java. And again its not Java per se - If Unity or Unreal had been developed in Java it wouldnt matter Id still be saying move to it.

 

The list of pros would take a full page to list. Trying to turn this into a language argument or debate is not what needs to happen. It needs to be a discussion of :

 

Financial Viability

Workflow

Content

Support

Please dont try and turn this into some kind of Java is better than x. thats not what anyone means

 

What they mean is that Java is a low level language and content takes too long to be pushed out, support for Open GL is not good or we would have better graphics capability, Modders are stuck using hacker techniques (injection) to avoid stepping on things, and the age of WURM is readily noticeable in the code.

 

So again to make this very clear - this is not about Java  or what it can or cannot do - its about moving to something thats simply better to develop a game on.

 

 

 

Edited by sunsvortex

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Just now, bdew said:

The complaints about Java is 99% FUD. The modern JVMs are really really good at optimizing stuff. For spots where performance really matters it can very often achieve performance very close to hand written native C or assembly code.

 

The main problem is bad code (and trust me, i've been digging enough through WU code over the last few weeks)... and you can write bad code in any language.

 

Also as @asdf said - switching to a new language will be a full and complete rewrite of everything. The chances of this happening so far into a project's life (wurm is over 10 years old now!) are nil.

 

This was pretty much my point. I'm pretty good with Java, and it seems every time I come across a nasty bug here, I get a little better. JIT Compiling makes for some very nice debugging and profiling as well, both of which I've been using heavily lately. If there's any single complaint I have about Java, it's that it's a little too free in the choices you have to do things - but C# is no different in this. After playing with Google Go, I've come to respect languages that are a bit more strict. Could be worse though, could be entirely in Python where a missing tab can spoil Chirstmas.

 

I'd really like to see "the usual suspects" that constantly post their doom and gloom to contribute something else for a change. It's that old saying... "If you don't have something nice to say, don't say anything at all." - And yes, you can be critical in a nice, helpful way. #DoomAndGloomMustDie2016

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See even before I could get my post out, you turned this into a Java is better than x or it can do anything x can.

 

let me again make this clear

 

NOONE GIVES A DAMN WHAT JAVA CAN OR CANNOT DO

Stop making this into a language argument.

If you , as a so called developer, dont understand what benefits a system like Unity or Unreal brings, you really need to do some homework.

Its not about a language....at alll.

 

Its about damn near everything BUT the language.

 

 

Edited by sunsvortex

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15 minutes ago, sunsvortex said:

Its not that Java is a problem per se - its that it is a dead end platform for moving Wurm forward. If your going to look at moving Wurm forward then its really needs to move away from Java and move to Unity or Unreal. You have the Unity Asset Store - instant content that modders can use and drop in at thier liesure, assuming an integrated modding infrastructure. Top that off with player developed content as well as CC developed content and its a wonderful everyone wins scenario.

Unity and Unreal are not the be-all end-all for platforms. If you understand what they are, then you should also know what you actually get from them. It's just as easy to write horrible games based in Unity and Unreal as it is to have issues with a custom engine. I also beg to differ on Java being a "dead end platform". Java is used in way more places than you realize, and it's been steadily improving over the years.

 

Quote

Wurm needs a real, honest to god, engine. One that supports decent graphics, that can be scaled, that can be accessed by players and developers alike. Using a different platform opens the game up in ways that simply are not financially possible or realistic using java. And again its not Java per se - If Unity or Unreal had been developed in Java it wouldnt matter Id still be saying move to it.

See above.

 

Quote

The list of pros would take a full page to list. Trying to turn this into a language argument or debate is not what needs to happen. It needs to be a discussion of :

 

Financial Viability

Workflow

Content

Support Please dont try and turn this into some kind of Java is better than x. thats not what anyone means

 

What they mean is that Java is a low level language and content takes too long to be pushed out, support for Open GL is not good or we would have better graphics capability, Modders are stuck using hacker techniques (injection) to avoid stepping on things, and the age of WURM is readily noticeable in the code.

 

So again to make this very clear - this is not about Java  or what it can or cannot do - its about moving to something thats simply better to develop a game on.

You should also list the cons. Stopping now and moving to Unity or Unreal would require more resources than we really have at the moment. Do you think Wurm could halt completely for a year while a new client is developed in an entirely new engine, when a render rewrite (the engine, basically) is around the corner? Not to mention we'd likely need to have more folks on the art team (poor Saroman) just to pull off the work to port things over, and that's not including the "better graphics" you're after. Because a new engine isn't going to magically make our current models and textures life-like.

 

This isn't about what language is better. I'm rather language agnostic, which is why I shoot these things down. An engine is a starting point, not a turning point. It's something you use for a spring forward, not something you turn to after you've already written your own. Oh, and the market place? You should take a gander at a lot of Greenlight and Early Access games on Steam that make use of it. It's a point customers hammer indie game makers on.

 

As for OpenGL support... LWJGL is supporting Vulkan I do believe, which is a brand new set of APIs for doing some rather advanced things. Check it out. Java isn't as dead as you think. ;)

 

Edit: For those confused, he edited his post while I was typing mine (and fact-checking myself on Vulkan and LWJGL). Above his is reasoned argument about changing engines and my reply to it. Above that is... unfortunate.

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9 minutes ago, Keenan said:

Unity and Unreal are not the be-all end-all for platforms. If you understand what they are, then you should also know what you actually get from them. It's just as easy to write horrible games based in Unity and Unreal as it is to have issues with a custom engine. I also beg to differ on Java being a "dead end platform". Java is used in way more places than you realize, and it's been steadily improving over the years.

 

See above.

 

You should also list the cons. Stopping now and moving to Unity or Unreal would require more resources than we really have at the moment. Do you think Wurm could halt completely for a year while a new client is developed in an entirely new engine, when a render rewrite (the engine, basically) is around the corner? Not to mention we'd likely need to have more folks on the art team (poor Saroman) just to pull off the work to port things over, and that's not including the "better graphics" you're after. Because a new engine isn't going to magically make our current models and textures life-like.

 

This isn't about what language is better. I'm rather language agnostic, which is why I shoot these things down. An engine is a starting point, not a turning point. It's something you use for a spring forward, not something you turn to after you've already written your own. Oh, and the market place? You should take a gander at a lot of Greenlight and Early Access games on Steam that make use of it. It's a point customers hammer indie game makers on.

 

As for OpenGL support... LWJGL is supporting Vulkan I do believe, which is a brand new set of APIs for doing some rather advanced things. Check it out. Java isn't as dead as you think. ;)

Were not taliking about writing horrible games - were talking about moving WURM to something viable. The game is what it is, put it on a platform that can be scaled, that can be built upon by players as well as developers.

 

The only cons are that current devs will be introduced to a learning curve and the time it takes to make the transition - thats what your really complaining about isnt it.

Your not shooting anything down, your trolling the thread trying to turn it into an argument about language which has absolutely NOTHING to do with this NOTHING.

 

People that are not familiar with coding intricacies will often just cite its Java. AND since thats what wurm is running on just JAVA - they are correct to a point. They dont need to be able to hold a conversation about all this they just need to say its JAVA. We all know what they mean and there is no reason to attack them over it.

 

And one other item of a technical note - I dont care what Open GL supports or not - The developers currently working on WURM are not good enough to make it work well, so it doesnt matter how great Open GL is if you dont have the dev power to exploit it.

Edited by sunsvortex

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it's not possible for cc to port wurm to anything, man

might as well suggest them to move their office to the moon, lol

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FYI the current best selling PC game EVER is written in Java. Not unity or unreal.

 

Quote

The only cons are that current devs will be introduced to a learning curve and the time it takes to make the transition - thats what your really complaining about isnt it.

 

I think you are massively underestimating how much work will be involved in this, or overestimating the amount of resources CC has available.

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i don't get it...

you say it's not about the java engine but Wurm must move to another engine?

 

pardon my ignorance if i don't understand what you want to say

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Whoa, when did everyone become business experts and programming wonders? What did I get?

 

#MotalaToTheMoon

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1 minute ago, sunsvortex said:

Were not taliking about writing horrible games - were talking about moving WURM to something viable. The game is what it is, put it on a platform that can be scaled, that can be built upon by players as well as developers.

 

The only cons are that current devs will be introduced to a learning curve and the time it takes to make the transition - thats what your really complaining about isnt it.

Your not shooting anything down, your trolling the thread trying to turn it into an argument about language which has absolutely NOTHING to do with this NOTHING.

 

People that are not familiar with coding intricacies will often just cite its Java. AND since thats what wurm is running on just JAVA - they are correct to a point. They dont need to be able to hold a conversation about all this they just need to say its JAVA. We all know what they mean and there is no reason to attack them over it.

 

Actually, I'm not too shabby with C#, and the last I checked Unreal is C++? Also has that Blueprint thing. If you know what you're doing, the learning curve on any new library or engine isn't too bad. It's more that you have to start from scratch, which takes a lot of time. As I said before, I don't really feel Wurm could survive that long of a period to rewrite the client. Also, I have used Unreal and Unity before. I was very interested in a voxel library on Unity for a period of time (and may still look at it again in the future). I'm more of a fan of Unreal, and would completely support that engine if we needed to rewrite everything. I've done some pretty neat stuff in that as well, but nothing worth releasing.

 

Again, it isn't a language argument. A good programmer doesn't even see the language, it's all about what it's trying to accomplish. All you need is a good document to translate what you're unfamiliar with into the familiar and you're good to go. My usual time to pick up a new language is about 24-48 hours to be proficient enough for productivity. :)

 

Are you willing to write up a mock of a Wurm client in Unreal? You could very well use the Wurm Unlimited decompiled source as a base line for what's needed. :)

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3 minutes ago, KaiH said:

i don't get it...

you say it's not about the java engine but Wurm must move to another engine?

 

pardon my ignorance if i don't understand what you want to say

Java is a programming language - a low level language, and a good one.

 An engine is alltogether something different. It has been written in a low level language and is a program unto itself. It provides structure. Honestly take a look at Unitys or Unreals site and take a bit to look into how it works. But just for a quick primer:

you download the programs and open them up and develop your game from within that program. While there can be a lot of low level coding involved once its in place you can use the high lev el scripting languages to quickly and i mean very quickly add content, mechanics, upgrades. Its just a far superior route than using a straight language.

 

Using java youll litterally just start coding in whatever flavor of editor you like to use. its all low level coding and it takes forever when compared to high level languages and scripting.

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Question to the Developers, Codeclub, And Retro.

 

If we Did make a client in lets say unreal(For this example), The community crowd funded or crowd worked on a client in unreal, Would we be allowed to:

-Rip apart the wurm client to connect it to the real game(Wurm Unlimited)

-Use wurm assets

-Use said client with lets say Wurm Unlimited Servers.

-Distribute the client to players without infringing Legal stuff. (Basically giving permission to the community to work on the new client)

-Anything else we may need to create said client and distribute it. 

 

Why? From what im seeing and hearing, Theres several people in the community who could do work on it, However nobody wants to do something they can't release or share with people. 

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Fixing wurm by switching languages is super unrealistic and not very cost effective. Volunteer devs don't get paid for the most part, and are not going to be able to do it themselves. Rolf would probably need to hire a dedicated team to help switch from java to whatever if this wanted to be done in a timely fashion and not a decade. I mean look how long it takes for things to get added, bridges anyone? Why are we talking about this really? We should be suggesting ways to help wurm improve with whats on the table not rebuild it from scratch.

Edited by Niki

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1 minute ago, akaedis said:

Question to the Developers, Codeclub, And Retro.

 

If we Did make a client in lets say unreal(For this example), The community crowd funded or crowd worked on a client in unreal, Would we be allowed to:

-Rip apart the wurm client to connect it to the real game(Wurm Unlimited)

-Use wurm assets

-Use said client with lets say Wurm Unlimited Servers.

-Distribute the client to players without infringing Legal stuff. (Basically giving permission to the community to work on the new client)

-Anything else we may need to create said client and distribute it. 

 

Why? From what im seeing and hearing, Theres several people in the community who could do work on it, However nobody wants to do something they can't release or share with people. 

 

For legal reasons, I'd say you'd want to ask Rolf and CodeClub directly on this on the distribution part. One sticky situation with Wurm Unlimited though is that there are Steam parts in there, so you're more at risk at breaking your EULA with Steam when it comes to that. 

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17 minutes ago, bdew said:

FYI the current best selling PC game EVER is written in Java. Not unity or unreal.

 

 

I think you are massively underestimating how much work will be involved in this, or overestimating the amount of resources CC has available.

I downloaded Unity - spent 3 hours doing some reading - setup a server and a client and had a toon inside a 3d world in 15 minutes. 15 minutes...thats all it took. 15 minutes -I could run around  do a couple of things like shoot a gun and ride a horse. If I can do that in 15 minutes think what real developers can do. I only do web development so i stick to C# VB and some C++ and nowaday thanks to WU some Java.

 

I think your overestimating how long this will take. I know for a fact I could have something people could log into and do something...may not be much but do something in 1 day.

Edited by sunsvortex

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I've never coded in Java, but what I do know is that Wurm crashes more than basically every other program I have combined. I have to load the game 1-3 times before I get to play, every single time. It is the single biggest reason I do not recommend Wurm to anyone, it feels like it's still in early Alpha.

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14 minutes ago, Keenan said:

 

For legal reasons, I'd say you'd want to ask Rolf and CodeClub directly on this on the distribution part. One sticky situation with Wurm Unlimited though is that there are Steam parts in there, so you're more at risk at breaking your EULA with Steam when it comes to that. 

 

Where would one do that if such an idea actually got traction? Also i don't think the steam EULA would be broken?

 

Heres a copy of it for all to re-read over:

Spoiler

Wurm Unlimited Game Agreement
Agreeing to this agreement is part of playing the game. If you download and play the game, it is assumed that you are agreeing to the terms and conditions set out below.
Code Club AB is not interested in cheating anyone, and we'll always do our best to help resolve any problems that might occur. However, by purchasing or downloading Wurm Unlimited, you agree to the following terms:
Here is a brief non exhaustive summary to help you. However, please ensure you read the full terms and conditions contained in the rest of this agreement as it is those that you are agreeing to.

Wurm Unlimited is Copyright Code Club AB

The Game Client is supplied as is and Code Club AB accepts no responsibility for any damage to your system

You may distribute videos and screenshots at will from the game (and use the ingame music)!

You must agree to all the terms stated below. These terms may be revised from time to time and applied retrospectively to all accounts.

TERMS AND CONDITIONS
Wurm Unlimited is the copyrighted work of Code Club AB and all content is the copyrighted work of Code Club AB and its affiliates, and all use of the Wurm Unlimited game is governed by the terms and conditions as stated in this agreement, including any future revisions that may be implemented.
Use of the Wurm Unlimited software indicates your agreement with these terms and conditions. All terms and conditions in this agreement apply retrospectively to all Wurm Unlimited use.
Installation of this software allows you the exclusive use for playing the Wurm Unlimited game provided by Code Club AB pursuant to the terms and conditions in this agreement. You acknowledge and agree that you shall have no ownership or other property interest in the software and that the software is under the sole ownership of Code Club AB.
WURM UNLIMITED SOFTWARE

Playing of the Wurm Unlimited game requires the download and installation of the Wurm Unlimited Java software and the installation of the required java libraries.
You accept that the Unlimited software is provided as is and Code Club AB accept no responsibility for any damage, data loss or other problems associated with the installation and use of the software.

MUTUAL PERMISSION TO USE SCREENSHOTS, LOGOTYPE AND VIDEO

By accepting this EULA you receive rights to use the Wurm logotype, publish ingame screenshots or video capture in raw or edited form as per our Fansite policy:

Fansite policy
1. DISCLAIMER

The first thing is to make clear that your site is a fan site and not an official Wurm Unlimited site. The best thing to do is put a disclaimer on the front page somewhere obvious, or put it in the footer of your template if you use a template based site. Here is some suggested wording which you can steal if you like - just insert your own site name where shown.


Quote
Wurm Unlimited is a game produced by Code Club AB. Wurm Unlimited and Code Club AB do not endorse and are not responsible or liable for any content, products, services or information available on YOUR SITE NAME.

YOUR SITE NAME is not connected to Wurm Unlimited nor is it the official website.

2. COPYRIGHT

The name Wurm Unlimited, the official Wurm Logo and other content are protected rights of Code Club AB and or its agents or its suppliers. You must give appropriate credit to the Game and the respected suppliers - if in doubt, ask!

3. USE OF GAME CONTENT AND IMAGES

You can use pretty much anything you like from in game, but please do not corrupt or alter anything in anyway that would defame or injure the reputation or business of Code Club AB or its suppliers. In the case of third party content such as game music, you may need to seek permission from the copyright holders directly before using their content on your site. Again, if in doubt, ask!

4. USE OF LOGO

You may use the current Wurm Unlimited logo, however it should not be used as the prominent title of your website - you should have your own logo for that. As we change logo from time to time, please ensure that your fansite carries the current logo.


5. YOUR CONTENT

What you put on your site is, of course, up to you - it is your site. However, if you wish to use Wurm Unlimited content your site must NOT contain anything illegal, libellous, defamatory, or obscene. That includes pornography, racist, sexist, ageist, or homophobic references, or anything that we would not allow you to use on the Wurm Forums – probably as good a guide as any.


7. MAILING LISTS

If you compile and run a mailing list, any message sent must comply with these Guidelines and state that you and the message are not connected with the Official Site. Perhaps use a disclaimer similar to the one above.


8. AND FINALLY

The golden rule is ASK. We have not nailed this down as tightly as most other games producers as we want you to enjoy putting your fan site together. But for pretty obvious reasons we also do need to protect our rights and reputation and those of the companies involved with us, or there won't be a Wurm to be a fan of!

So make a great Wurm Fan Site, and let us know so we can list it on our website.

Conversely, you give permission to the owners of Wurm Unlimited to use any screenshots, video capture or edited video material in promotional material (such as on the website or in advertisements) that you have made available either publically or to staff members.

 

Edit: To clarify, Provided we got permissions from CC & Such first. Then i dont think it would break the EULA(Steam)

Edited by akaedis

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4 minutes ago, sunsvortex said:

I downloaded Unity - spent 3 hours doing some reading - setup a server and a client and had a toon insode a 3d world in 15 minutes. 15 minutes...thats all it took. 15 minutes -I could run around  do a couple of things like shoot a gun and ride a horse. If I can do that in 15 minutes think what real developers can do. I only do web development so i stick to C# VB and some C++ and nowaday thanks to WU some Java.

 

I think your overestimating how long this will take. I know for a fact I could have something people could log into and do something...may not be much but do something in 1 day.

 

And that's exactly what Keenan said about shitty games. Taking some prefab stuff and using it to "make" a game in 15 minutes is one thing. Making an engine that can run an MMO on top of unity is completely different. 

 

WU client is currently has 711 classes and over 8mb of SOURCE CODE (looking ad decompiled code, so some of that is cruft, but still...). That is not including libraries, etc. And i can bet that some chunks of that were written by notch 10 years ago and nobody in the current team understands them :P

 

Redoing all that in a different platform could easily take thousands of manhours.

 

If you want a good example of a rewrite like that - look at MCPE, Microsoft has already burned god knows how many millions on that, and it's nowhere close to being functionally equivalent with the Java version of Minecraft.

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11 minutes ago, bdew said:

 

And that's exactly what Keenan said about shitty games. Taking some prefab stuff and using it to "make" a game in 15 minutes is one thing. Making an engine that can run an MMO on top of unity is completely different.  - Now how is it your going to make WURM shitty if your litterally moving it to a different platform? It would have to be shitty to begin with right? Now granted I would pick Unreal over Unity any day of the week, but due to costs I generally point at Unity.

 

WU client is currently has 711 classes and over 8mb of SOURCE CODE (looking ad decompiled code, so some of that is cruft, but still...). That is not including libraries, etc. And i can bet that some chunks of that were written by notch 10 years ago and nobody in the current team understands them :P Both Unity and Unreal very well may remove most of those and replace them with thier own - most of whats being done in WURM now can be done without having to write a single line of code. They will of course want to and should do so. Wurm is not as complex as your making it out to be. Its just showing its age .

 

Redoing all that in a different platform could easily take thousands of manhours. - See previous posts -6 months to a year depending on circumstances. There are 5 paid developers and a handfull of volunteer devs - If they concentrate -  and focus on moving the game over, its just not going to take along as you might think. Have you ever used Unity? I would invite you to download and run through a few tutorials and check out specifically the workflow. And what difference does it make how long it takes? Really...if its moving to a viable platform then just do what needs to be done. Why would you fault them for trying to make things better?

 

If you want a good example of a rewrite like that - look at MCPE, Microsoft has already burned god knows how many millions on that, and it's nowhere close to being functionally equivalent with the Java version of Minecraft. - I dont care what Microsoft does -I care what Wurm does. Microsfot had devulged into a bloated ridiculous example of a company many years ago. Its name is synonymous with "who cares". lol

 

Edited by sunsvortex

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thank you for the explanation Sunsvortex,

sounds like Unity would be a box-on-box thing where stuff gets added like carbon-copies - allways repeating crap because it would be too much hassle to individualise things.

My example would be Skyrim - beautiful world, good gameplay for a while, but everything is repeated stuff once you have done half the mainstory.

 

i'd rather stick to what we have and look forward to bugfixes - some Devs have done tremendously good lately in that regard!

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10 minutes ago, akaedis said:

 

Where would one do that if such an idea actually got traction? Also i don't think the steam EULA would be broken?

 

Heres a copy of it for all to re-read over:

  Hide contents

Wurm Unlimited Game Agreement
Agreeing to this agreement is part of playing the game. If you download and play the game, it is assumed that you are agreeing to the terms and conditions set out below.
Code Club AB is not interested in cheating anyone, and we'll always do our best to help resolve any problems that might occur. However, by purchasing or downloading Wurm Unlimited, you agree to the following terms:
Here is a brief non exhaustive summary to help you. However, please ensure you read the full terms and conditions contained in the rest of this agreement as it is those that you are agreeing to.

Wurm Unlimited is Copyright Code Club AB

The Game Client is supplied as is and Code Club AB accepts no responsibility for any damage to your system

You may distribute videos and screenshots at will from the game (and use the ingame music)!

You must agree to all the terms stated below. These terms may be revised from time to time and applied retrospectively to all accounts.

TERMS AND CONDITIONS
Wurm Unlimited is the copyrighted work of Code Club AB and all content is the copyrighted work of Code Club AB and its affiliates, and all use of the Wurm Unlimited game is governed by the terms and conditions as stated in this agreement, including any future revisions that may be implemented.
Use of the Wurm Unlimited software indicates your agreement with these terms and conditions. All terms and conditions in this agreement apply retrospectively to all Wurm Unlimited use.
Installation of this software allows you the exclusive use for playing the Wurm Unlimited game provided by Code Club AB pursuant to the terms and conditions in this agreement. You acknowledge and agree that you shall have no ownership or other property interest in the software and that the software is under the sole ownership of Code Club AB.
WURM UNLIMITED SOFTWARE

Playing of the Wurm Unlimited game requires the download and installation of the Wurm Unlimited Java software and the installation of the required java libraries.
You accept that the Unlimited software is provided as is and Code Club AB accept no responsibility for any damage, data loss or other problems associated with the installation and use of the software.

MUTUAL PERMISSION TO USE SCREENSHOTS, LOGOTYPE AND VIDEO

By accepting this EULA you receive rights to use the Wurm logotype, publish ingame screenshots or video capture in raw or edited form as per our Fansite policy:

Fansite policy
1. DISCLAIMER

The first thing is to make clear that your site is a fan site and not an official Wurm Unlimited site. The best thing to do is put a disclaimer on the front page somewhere obvious, or put it in the footer of your template if you use a template based site. Here is some suggested wording which you can steal if you like - just insert your own site name where shown.


Quote
Wurm Unlimited is a game produced by Code Club AB. Wurm Unlimited and Code Club AB do not endorse and are not responsible or liable for any content, products, services or information available on YOUR SITE NAME.

YOUR SITE NAME is not connected to Wurm Unlimited nor is it the official website.

2. COPYRIGHT

The name Wurm Unlimited, the official Wurm Logo and other content are protected rights of Code Club AB and or its agents or its suppliers. You must give appropriate credit to the Game and the respected suppliers - if in doubt, ask!

3. USE OF GAME CONTENT AND IMAGES

You can use pretty much anything you like from in game, but please do not corrupt or alter anything in anyway that would defame or injure the reputation or business of Code Club AB or its suppliers. In the case of third party content such as game music, you may need to seek permission from the copyright holders directly before using their content on your site. Again, if in doubt, ask!

4. USE OF LOGO

You may use the current Wurm Unlimited logo, however it should not be used as the prominent title of your website - you should have your own logo for that. As we change logo from time to time, please ensure that your fansite carries the current logo.


5. YOUR CONTENT

What you put on your site is, of course, up to you - it is your site. However, if you wish to use Wurm Unlimited content your site must NOT contain anything illegal, libellous, defamatory, or obscene. That includes pornography, racist, sexist, ageist, or homophobic references, or anything that we would not allow you to use on the Wurm Forums – probably as good a guide as any.


7. MAILING LISTS

If you compile and run a mailing list, any message sent must comply with these Guidelines and state that you and the message are not connected with the Official Site. Perhaps use a disclaimer similar to the one above.


8. AND FINALLY

The golden rule is ASK. We have not nailed this down as tightly as most other games producers as we want you to enjoy putting your fan site together. But for pretty obvious reasons we also do need to protect our rights and reputation and those of the companies involved with us, or there won't be a Wurm to be a fan of!

So make a great Wurm Fan Site, and let us know so we can list it on our website.

Conversely, you give permission to the owners of Wurm Unlimited to use any screenshots, video capture or edited video material in promotional material (such as on the website or in advertisements) that you have made available either publically or to staff members.

 

Edit: To clarify, Provided we got permissions from CC & Such first. Then i dont think it would break the EULA(Steam)

 

I would start with an email to retrograde@wurmonline.com - since he is the official public contact for Code Club. Draft your request carefully.

 

Also, it's not WU's EULA that I'd be worried about. Steam itself has an EULA. 

http://store.steampowered.com/subscriber_agreement/

Section G. - I'm not entirely sure how it applies to the actual Steam (Valve proprietary) bits included in WU. Hence my word of caution :)

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6 minutes ago, KaiH said:

thank you for the explanation Sunsvortex,

sounds like Unity would be a box-on-box thing where stuff gets added like carbon-copies - allways repeating crap because it would be too much hassle to individualise things.

My example would be Skyrim - beautiful world, good gameplay for a while, but everything is repeated stuff once you have done half the mainstory.

 

i'd rather stick to what we have and look forward to bugfixes - some Devs have done tremendously good lately in that regard!

Its only that way if you make it that way. Yeah Skyrim does that and alot, as its quest based. Wurms not quest based. So the repeating sequences of standardized modularized quests are not really an issue. Skyrim used a framework for thier quests to make it easy to make the ...what several hundred quests or more they have going to advance in the game. Wurm simply doesnt need to modularize anything beyond building parts - walls roofs ect ect ect. And this is EXACTLY what is needed for WURM. Make modding very easy.

Edited by sunsvortex
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16 minutes ago, bdew said:

WU client is currently has 711 classes and over 8mb of SOURCE CODE (looking ad decompiled code, so some of that is cruft, but still...). That is not including libraries, etc. And i can bet that some chunks of that were written by notch 10 years ago and nobody in the current team understands them :P

 

DeedPlanner 2 currently have 1,2 mb of source code alone and 119 classes. I once started making DeedPlanner for Unity, but abandoned the project after few weeks and realizing that finishing it would take at least 6 more months at the same pace with which I wrote rest of the program. Now take Wurm which is much older and more complex project and imagine how much would it take to convert just client to Unity... 1 year of non-stop development and stopping all other projects is absolute minimum which comes to my mind. Counting all complications, testing etc. this number would probably get closer to 2 years.

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1 minute ago, Warlander said:

 

DeedPlanner 2 currently have 1,2 mb of source code alone and 119 classes. I once started making DeedPlanner for Unity, but abandoned the project after few weeks and realizing that finishing it would take at least 6 more months at the same pace with which I wrote rest of the program. Now take Wurm which is much older and more complex project and imagine how much would it take to convert just client to Unity... 1 year of non-stop development and stopping all other projects is absolute minimum which comes to my mind. Counting all complications, testing etc. this number would probably get closer to 2 years.

But you are also talking about Just you -no one else assisting on the project -yes if its just one person trying to port it over yeah its going take a stupid long time -Im not talking about 1 person War, Im talking about completely ending any further development on WO and focusing  - all hands on deck to knock it out and get a base game going. I know it can be done in 6 months to a year. I know it can. With everyone working on it - I just dont buy the 2 year thing.

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