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1 minute ago, Josh said:

So what im hearing from keenan is that opinion /= feedback? That is the most invalid statement i have ever read. You can not have feedback in this case without opinion. If you ask how we like the liquids, and we say "they suck" that is both opinion and feedback, no matter what you say.

"a reaction or response to a particular process or activity" straight from the dictionary bud.

also: lol @ keenan saying that feedback is important and they cant make changes without it.

 

if only you actually looked at feedback, cuz we give you plenty of it. You just dont listen.

Particularly straight from Merriam Webster:  helpful information or criticism that is given to someone to say what can be done to improve a performance, product, etc.

 

Constructive criticism:  criticism or advice that is useful and intended to help or improve something, often with an offer of possible solutions.

 

Destructive criticism:  points out faults and directly attacks their owner. The aim is to show that the person or object has no worth or validity. No practical advice or consideration is given.

 

Just wanted to clarify that for you.  There is a difference between a helpful opinion, and a destructive one.  It requires tact to be able to portray criticism properly to it's fullest potential.

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Just now, Slickshot said:

Particularly straight from Merriam Webster:  helpful information or criticism that is given to someone to say what can be done to improve a performance, product, etc.

 

Constructive criticism:  criticism or advice that is useful and intended to help or improve something, often with an offer of possible solutions.

 

Destructive criticism:  points out faults and directly attacks their owner. The aim is to show that the person or object has no worth or validity. No practical advice or consideration is given.

 

Just wanted to clarify that for you.  There is a difference between a helpful opinion, and a destructive one.  It requires tact to be able to portray criticism properly to it's fullest potential.

Feedback is feedback. What's considered helpful is subjective. If all you do in life is try to help others and not yourself you've got a long road ahead. We shouldnt have to spell out every reason why we dont like something. Simply saying we dont like it, dont put it in our game, should be well more than sufficient. Now. Im tired of reading your staff defending posts. *ignore*

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10 minutes ago, Josh said:

Feedback is feedback. What's considered helpful is subjective. If all you do in life is try to help others and not yourself you've got a long road ahead. We shouldnt have to spell out every reason why we dont like something. Simply saying we dont like it, dont put it in our game, should be well more than sufficient. Now. Im tired of reading your staff defending posts. *ignore*

Feedback is not feedback.  Any company will tell you that some negative feedback is simply garbage, and not worth listening to.  It takes a considerable amount of patience to sift through the garbage to find actual constructive and useful feedback.  If you honestly believe you are so important that you can spew trash everywhere and still be taken seriously then you're fooling yourself.  No one said you have to like the game, or deal with updates that you don't enjoy.  All I'm saying is, for your own benefit and enjoyment of the game, you could be more tactful in your feedback so that it is actually useful and helpful to the progress of this game.  Sitting around complaining all day without offering any neutral suggestions only wastes your own time, and the time of others who read that hateful dribble--which leads us back to square one where no progress has been made.

Edited by Slickshot

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6 hours ago, Mclovin said:

If i see a peat defences near castle glittercrown it would have all made sense

 

My post in the feedback thread was probably too long winded and difficult to understand. Although maybe no one bothered to read the thread at all since the people complaining now were nowhere to be seen there.

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27 minutes ago, Slickshot said:

Feedback is not feedback.

 

Sometimes i feel like i really am stupid, Then i read slickshots post saying feedback isn't feedback and laugh it off.

 

Serious post:

Definition of Feedback: 

https://www.google.ca/#q=define+feedback

  • information about reactions to a product, a person's performance of a task, etc., used as a basis for improvement.
  • the modification or control of a process or system by its results or effects, e.g., in a biochemical pathway or behavioral response.

Simply stating you do not like something IS Feedback. You're an idiot if you think otherwise. 

 

Also, Who the hell uses webster, like at all, Everyone i know uses dictionary.com and wikipedia like a normal person.

Edited by akaedis
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5 minutes ago, akaedis said:

 

 

Sometimes i feel like i really am stupid, Then i read slickshots post saying feedback isn't feedback and laugh it off.

 

Serious post:

Definition of Feedback: 

https://www.google.ca/#q=define+feedback

  • information about reactions to a product, a person's performance of a task, etc., used as a basis for improvement.
  • the modification or control of a process or system by its results or effects, e.g., in a biochemical pathway or behavioral response.

Simply stating you do not like something IS Feedback. You're an idiot if you think otherwise. 

 

Also, Who the hell uses webster, like at all, Everyone i know uses dictionary.com and wikipedia like a normal person.

Lost credibility.

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5 hours ago, Keenan said:

You had a chance to test it. You had a chance to see it for yourself. The reason it's being held back on Chaos is because the members of that community gave feedback about the feature, where the overall feedback from Epic alone was positive.

 

the majority of Epic's population is Freedom-esque living on home servers (which many Elevation residents want removed because they are essentially Freedom servers, right down to paying for the server hosting costs of Elevation)

 

so of course it got good feedback, it's a Freedom-oriented feature, it lets people who want to sit on deed all day and literally not take any risk (I'M AFRAID OF HELL HOUNDS THEY ACTUALLY HURT) do so and now they can even restock deed defense materials right on deed

 

we told you guys this was gonna suck, you added it, we're saying we want it removed 'cause it sucks, and you're acting surprised

 

sounds a lot like:

 

> archery change (which one? lol) - archery changeS

> armor nerf

> meditation, once we actually knew all the abilities

> sorcery

> player gods / priests

> [insert stupid change here]

 

and this exact thing that just happened is what happens literally every time I think "oh hey I might log in today and see what's going on" - nope, something dumb happens, "ahh ###### it I'll play a real game instead"

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22 minutes ago, Slickshot said:

Lost credibility.

 

Me:  Uses wikipedia = Loses credibility

Slickshot: Uses webster = Apparantly all is right in the world, God is a man, Feedback isn't feedback, And apparently wikipedia is used by only credit-less idiot's where nothing at all on it can be believed. 

Edited by akaedis

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1 hour ago, Josh said:

Feedback is feedback. What's considered helpful is subjective. If all you do in life is try to help others and not yourself you've got a long road ahead. We shouldnt have to spell out every reason why we dont like something. Simply saying we dont like it, dont put it in our game, should be well more than sufficient. Now. Im tired of reading your staff defending posts. *ignore*

Criticism without reasoning or details is worse than useless as feedback. You're definitely not a software developer if you think it has any use whatsoever. In fact, it's worse than not providing your opinion at all because it makes it harder to find actual feedback in the noise of "your feature sucks" and "I don't like this".

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Maybe we should cut Keenan some slack. You know, he probably is doing his job to the best of his ability. Thing is he doesn't actually implement the changes. Remember when nobody listened to us before there was a PR Team? Yeah, well they're still not listening, just this time not listening to the PR Team that actually is listening to us. If the people actually making the changes don't actually listen to the PR Team, then essentially everything the PR Team does means nothing because the players' feedback STILL is not being taken seriously by the people who are supposed to be receiving it.

 

With that in mind, the main concern with the new potions isn't a technical mechanical thing; it's the way it will effect the meta. In other words, we're not concerned with little nuances regarding the functioning of the items; we're concerned with how it will change the way people play the game in a way that will make gameplay even less fun for everyone, as has been the case with every patch given to PvP as far as any of us can remember.

 

Lastly, just because someone uses profane language or doesn't formulate their response politely or to your liking does not make it trolling. It might help to see trolling as satire - it's often crude and offensive, but it still carries just as much meaning (sometime more) as someone who is polite and sophisticated.

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7 hours ago, MrGARY said:

 

ummmm lawn is the best dirtwall type...

didn't mention dirt walls

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would like to mention that not only will someone with autistic tendencies  make all dirt walls or surrounding perimeter  around his/her deed Tar or some other stupid substance...

 

but now if you want Clay you can just make a 2x2 clay pit on deed..

 

GG....

 

on a PVP server you need player to be able to fight other players and making so you don't have to leave deed.might aswell make it that you need right click a player and ask for a spar. 

 

Might aswell call Epic ....Freedom 2.0 with the option of going off deed if you wanna cap some pillars or build a tower (P V W)

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35 minutes ago, thorgot said:

Criticism without reasoning or details is worse than useless as feedback. You're definitely not a software developer if you think it has any use whatsoever. In fact, it's worse than not providing your opinion at all because it makes it harder to find actual feedback in the noise of "your feature sucks" and "I don't like this".

Well thought-out response.

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1 hour ago, Slickshot said:

Feedback is not feedback.  Any company will tell you that some negative feedback is simply garbage, and not worth listening to.  It takes a considerable amount of patience to sift through the garbage to find actual constructive and useful feedback.  If you honestly believe you are so important that you can spew trash everywhere and still be taken seriously then you're fooling yourself.  No one said you have to like the game, or deal with updates that you don't enjoy.  All I'm saying is, for your own benefit and enjoyment of the game, you could be more tactful in your feedback so that it is actually useful and helpful to the progress of this game.  Sitting around complaining all day without offering any neutral suggestions only wastes your own time, and the time of others who read that hateful dribble--which leads us back to square one where no progress has been made.

 

Speaking as someone who used to run quality for a consumer products company, and review thousands of consumer feedback calls/emails a month, +1 to this.  Regardless of how I feel about this update - there's feedback and there's useful feedback, and there is a big difference.  "My kid stabbed themselves in the leg with one of your pencils, you shouldn't sell them pre-sharpened." is not useful feedback (true story).

Edited by Mirax
Clarity
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Exactly. Providing an assertion like "this sucks" (or even "this is great") without any reasoning is worse than useless to a developer.

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Today I have hope that there are those with good common sense when it comes to the concept of constructive criticism.  Bravo, gentlemen.

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it's pretty easy. If it isn't suitable right now for chaos pvp, it isn't suitable for epic pvp. Why are you splitting the feedback? Chaos have said to keep it off pvp. Take it off epic, you know, pvp.

Edited by Mclovin
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1 hour ago, Ostentatio said:

Exactly. Providing an assertion like "this sucks" (or even "this is great") without any reasoning is worse than useless to a developer.

 

and every time we give reasoning, it's ignored

 

not only that, the devs could see how this would be bad without even needed feedback if they actually kept up to date on the PvP meta... we might even have balanced PvP too

 

but I'll explain it again:

 

On PvP servers, the meta for deed defense that has evolved over the past several years includes something called dirt walls. Originally, it was determined by players through a process called emergent gameplay (basically, players figuring out things that weren't originally intended by developers - new ways to play) that the best way (dominant strategy) to defend deeds was to create two tile wide sections of flat raised dirt around the deed in question. On top of that, longhouses (literally two tile wide houses built as long as possible) were built. Then came the changes.

 

The addition of multistory buildings allowed for multiple stories (obviously). However, catapults could only catapult one story at a time. On top of this, some more abhorrent changes were added, this time to catapults, thus making them extremely difficult to use and very buggy as well, despite known formulas and now even the source code. Finally came leveling. Previously, flat raising had kept players from creating multiple levels of dirtwalls because it was too tedious to be viable. Now, the ease of creating 600 and sometimes 900 slope "unbreakable clams" makes it commonplace at PvP deeds. This being on top of a mountain with a mine entrance with a high quality steel mind door that takes hours to bash, even with a couple dozen people helping and longhouses that can't be catapulted because they bug out, and dirtwalls that can't be leveled because they are too steep and the houses on top can't be catapulted.

 

On top of all of this, this absurd meta of deed building that turns what would be just your average Saturday into a ten hour or more mindnumbing grind, on top of this - the devs wanted to add something that could be added to dirt walls to make them even more difficult to take down, and we said we didn't want it at all, regardless of how it worked. Either it would be too tedious, and it would be used by a few people to protect a few really big deeds that really didn't want to be raided, thus making it even more of a pain to raid capitals, or it wouldn't be tedious enough and it would turn into a griefing mechanics.

 

We're sick of mechanics that reward tedium and not effort, formulaic design and not creativity. Give us something meaningful in PvP or don't give it to us at all. We're sick of what we've been getting. Stop giving us more of it.

Edited by MisterTeddy

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8 minutes ago, MisterTeddy said:

 

and every time we give reasoning, it's ignored

 

not only that, the devs could see how this would be bad without even needed feedback if they actually kept up to date on the PvP meta... we might even have balanced PvP too

When reasoning is along the lines of, "wow how stupid can the devs be?  This game is a flaming turd.  If you guys would just take every suggestion we ever say and implement it the game would be perfect, but nooooo you have your heads up your asses."  When people start reasoning like that (and most seem to) what is the point in listening to it and not ignoring it?  I mean honestly, give a good reason to listen to that drabble.

Edited by Slickshot

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Make a suggestion thread called "Nerf SotG" and see how much reasoning gets thrown around in both directions, for and against.

 

Make a couple dozen more over a period of a few years.

 

Now have a dev post "hey I think we should nerf gone, what are your thoughts?" My thoughts would be "go read the other 20-something threads about it because I'm sick of explaining it".

 

We post inflammatory things because we are upset that we have not been listening to and we are asked to restate our opinions over and over. We have proven ourselves quite capable of predicting a new feature's impacts on PvP, and still the devs don't listen. We still have years old gamebreaking bugs that any other game would consider first priority to address, and we still ask "why is player retention so low?". It's all been said, somewhere or another, then the devs tell us to stop trolling because what we posted isn't feedback. Yeah, it is feedback, just not in the form requested. It's feedback to stop insulting our intelligence and go read what we've left. There's plenty of it. We're tired of repeating it.

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4 minutes ago, MisterTeddy said:

Make a suggestion thread called "Nerf SotG" and see how much reasoning gets thrown around in both directions, for and against.

 

Make a couple dozen more over a period of a few years.

 

Now have a dev post "hey I think we should nerf gone, what are your thoughts?" My thoughts would be "go read the other 20-something threads about it because I'm sick of explaining it".

 

We post inflammatory things because we are upset that we have not been listening to and we are asked to restate our opinions over and over. We have proven ourselves quite capable of predicting a new feature's impacts on PvP, and still the devs don't listen. We still have years old gamebreaking bugs that any other game would consider first priority to address, and we still ask "why is player retention so low?". It's all been said, somewhere or another, then the devs tell us to stop trolling because what we posted isn't feedback. Yeah, it is feedback, just not in the form requested. It's feedback to stop insulting our intelligence and go read what we've left. There's plenty of it. We're tired of repeating it.

Interesting how the devs don't post inflammatory things about you [those you speak for as "we"] even though you're hateful and rude to them and don't listen to them.  But your excuse for acting out still stands yeah?  I mean, you've yet to be on the receiving end of the hateful mob who are constantly unsatisfied and never cease in berating you.  Walk a mile mate, and then come with excuses.  That's all I'm sayin.

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Everyone here complaining about tar dirtwalls becoming the meta have absolutely no idea how much resources that would cost.

Also, afaik there is no "removal' feature. If you turn a clay tile into dirt it's still a transmutation thus can only be done in your own influence.

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6 hours ago, MrGARY said:

Just wondering, how many worried about abuse have tested this in any form or know how difficult it even is?

 

It's not even on my list of fathomable things to do to find any way to make our dirt walls tar, even more so considering it's practically griefing ourselves to do it

I was worried about this. Before I even was on the test server i voiced that to keenan. When i got there and started working with it, I realized how much time and effort it takes to convert A SINGLE tile, WITH 70+ in all the skills needed. Even with high skills it took awhile to make the juice and combine. We didnt even have to go around harvesting to get the fruits needed. I personally felt this was balanced well just based on that.

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At the risk of saying too much, I'm going to detail the way things worked (in brief, kinda).

 

The feature was brought up, and as I had said in the past, there were several internal debates as there always is. This feature went between being a lot easier than it is, to almost not happening at all, and back to what you see now. What really brought it back from potential death was the fact that you can already pretty much customize every other resource in the game, and you can already modify the height of (some) of these tiles.

 

When it was ready and announced, even the "sucks" feedback was listened to and weighed. The rest of the volunteer team - from your CAs and WAs all the way up to the GM team had a say and brought concerns from all over the game. I know it's easy for you to attack me as "not playing PvP", but the truth is you have no idea what my experience is or isn't. In the true nature of Chaos, I tend to be untruthful about my experience and my skills. This also isn't my first time working on a game ever, and not my first time contributing to the design of a feature to be consumed by others. I am a software developer, I have been for 15 years, and I've served in varying other capacities for several other games. In short, I know how to think objectively and to put my own feelings and desires aside.

 

All that said, I brought the main concerns from the PvP community to the forefront. This isn't a simple decision though - this is a feature that has been requested by players, has had time and effort put in to it, and throwing it out based on fears is simply not something to be done lightly. All concerns were weighed with probability and possible changes brought up to counter those concerns or to make them far less probable. Hence the PvP restrictions:

  • Kingdom influence to create.
  • Harder to create
  • Easier to REVERT transmuted tiles.

 

I won't include the slope restriction because points have already been brought up noting that tiles CAN be raised afterward.

 

As Retrograde got more feedback, the decision came around to enable it for removing resources only. Again the feedback was collected and brought into discussions which lead us to this final moment. In all the feedback collected, the decision was to exclude Chaos to see if the fears raised by those players were valid or not

 

Now here we are.

 

I can take criticism. I can take accusations of corruption and bias. I can take a lot of things. When I see people saying we didn't "test" things enough or didn't "listen to feedback" though, I'm going to call it out when I see it. Especially when I know what happened and was a part of it. What I need from all of you though is an understanding. You know what you pay for every month. We all do. This is not a AAA game released by a financially backed company that can afford an army of testers and high paid analysts to determine if a feature is going to be good. You don't see huge developer discussions on those games (or not at the level that happens here) because they do pay a lot of money to not have to listen to you.

 

You have our ears though, so why not make it count? You can't cry that we didn't listen when the most you gave was a presumption of what you think might be the end result, and even that was summed up in three words or less. What is there to listen to? As others said, in software development we need more detail. We need people who are willing to try a feature out when we put it on Test. We need people to give valid case examples, not just "it's going to ruin pvp". How do you feel it will? How do you know when you haven't tested it, nor have you listened to the actual feedback your fellow players have given you?

 

I'm going to post them again, here. If you ever want to test something, you can find me. Unless I'm at work or sleeping, I'll be on as soon as possible to get you set up. New feature, possible bug, anything of the sort. 

 

Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/xorith (Direct Message goes to TWO phones)

IRC: I'm in pretty much every Wurm-related channel and my PMs are always open as Keenan. (I use IRCCloud for this, which ALSO sends alerts to TWO phones)

Forums: You can message me right here if you'd like. This is a little slower as it only sends an alert to my email - but that also alerts two phones. I just can't always reply quickly.

Email: keenan@wurmonline.com is my official email. Also goes two my phones. :)

 

Note for PvP: If you feel that you are uncomfortable disclosing information to me due my playing on Chaos, simply state so and I will ask another member of staff to assist. As an official member of the team, I will never act based on your player or kingdom. All I ask is that if you are contacting me as an official staff member, we leave PvP banter out of it and focus on the issue at hand. Then you can freely kill me whenever you wish. :)

 

This post is already too massively long, but I hope people read it all. There's no "TL;DR". If you're here and didn't read it, do me the kindness of reading it.

 

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