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Retrograde

Weekly News #6 Alche-Madness

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I'll post in Town Hall again tomorrow when I'm going to be on for more testing :)

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scenario:

  • 1 dirt is dropped on the corner of 4 rock tiles, changing the 4 tiles to dirt
  • only the southeast dirt tile could become clay, as the northwest corner of that tile is the source of the clay (the 1 dirt that was dropped)
  • 50 digging actions will lower the clay corner by 1, back to the original level, thus reverting the 4 tiles to rock again

In this example, a shovel would be able to remove a clay tile from the world. This brings a new question to my mind: is there not a layer of rock under the entire world? There are certainly both rock and clay tiles close together; I considered for a moment that clay must have always existed only near water to avoid interference with mining, because nobody could dig the clay down to get to the rock and nobody can tunnel underwater anyway. It is now possible (with reports that it was possible before, at some locations) to lower clay by digging and dredging. If the clay doesn't change to rock when it reaches that exact elevation, would you see clay, but 'hit rock' when digging? Or could you continue digging clay while lowering the max ceiling of the underground? If there were a tunnel behind the clay, then surely digging down from the surface would be impossible.

 

 

5 hours ago, shankiest said:

You could use clay tile to prevent any way to break into mines cause rock tile won't reveal unless you carry this liquid around.

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5kg 99ql tin with 0.25kg 99ql apple juice at 90 skill level made 60-90ql 2.50kg transformation liquid, when blessed i used 2.50kg[00:44:37] Someone has started transforming this tile., 10.0kg[00:51:03] The tile is over a quarter transformed. then 2.50kg [00:52:43] The tile is over a quarter transformed. then 25.0kg [00:54:38] The tile is over half way transformed. then 50.0kg [00:56:07] Yeah! You changed the Sand tile to Clay!...total apple juice used at 99ql 9.50kg

 

from my half drunk/half medicated/falling asleep state it looks like 100kg of 50+ ql liquid to transform a tile...not the max amount you can make at one time(as you can fit 100 lumps of tin taking at testing time 5kg of 99ql apple juice making 50kg of transformation liquid) but enough to fit in a small amphora at once

 

edit: thanks to the person who made me a fo priest to allow this testing [00:43:40] Rizi emits a positive wave of energy in your direction!

Edited by Deth666
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More alchemy, very nice. I'd like to see more of this. Devs, please go read Garit's Alchemy idea again. It was really thought out and it seems the payers like what you have done here and a development into more alchemy will please many i'd say.

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8 hours ago, Keenan said:

Hello Wurmians!

 

I am currently on Test and will be for a few hours as my Test-only GM Rizi.

I'll be standing by to assist anyone who wishes to test transforming tiles. I cannot make the liquid for you, however I can assist with getting the required items together.

 

Do keep in mind that this feature is in testing. I will also only be on the PvE test server. PvP testing will not be available at this time.

 

I'll edit this post when I'm going offline. :)

 

thanks for setting me up with testing materials, was very interesting creating new resource tiles

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why would resource walls be an issue?

we can still use 'level' on them, right?

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So we need to harvest 100 apple trees to transform just one tile?

 Weaksauce, I would have liked to see this a bit lower, 50 trees per tile may have been better seeing as we have to wait for the buggers to be in season.

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1 hour ago, Revelation said:

So we need to harvest 100 apple trees to transform just one tile?

 Weaksauce, I would have liked to see this a bit lower, 50 trees per tile may have been better seeing as we have to wait for the buggers to be in season.

 

The requirements are so high for a reason. The intention wasn't to allow people to easily pop various resource tiles (or remove them) on a whim. It was to give people the ability to do it if so desired. If you want a few clay or tar tiles on your deed, you will be able to do this if you're willing to put the time and effort into it.

 

Essentially, it isn't intentional for people to turn half of Exodus into a clay pit (though I swear my little section IS a clay pit), but to allow them to create some clay in a place where it's easier for them to access it. Especially in situations where the local resource has become a point of PvE contention, as it has in some cases. In reverse, the idea was to also allow change for areas where some resources are overly abundant and hinder building of roads and other infrastructure that we all rely on, but not so much as remove all of a resource on a whim.

 

This is something you should have to commit to and want bad enough to put the effort in to.

 

Also, like I mentioned before, keep an eye out in the Town Hall. Later today I will be back on Test to set people up so that they can test this feature for themselves. :)

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14 hours ago, Retrograde said:

Thank you all for the feedback!

 

I must admit, my original thoughts were "it's more effort to turn an entire deed into resource walls, it would be far easier for a raiding force to hit a small area" But I have spoken with a few PvPers and I can agree, becoming just another time consuiming drawback to raising feels a bit much.

 

We'll be looking at limitations on slopes for CREATING resource tiles, turning resource tiles to dirt will still have no limitations.

 

No one wants a 40-60 slope tar wall, right?

 

Whilst i understand the logic you have there, in a PvP environment workarounds can be done. I hear it takes multiple layers of application to change a tile. If a 3 tile dirtwall has the middle tile (no slopes on that tile) as tar/clay/peat this will make rading neigh on impossible. 

 

I really hope this isnt brought to PvP, but i do feel this is a great addition to PvE.

Edited by Redd

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10 minutes ago, Redd said:

 

Whilst i understand the logic you have there, in a PvP environment workarounds can be done. I hear it takes multiple layers of application to change a tile. If a 3 tile dirtwall has the middle tile (no slopes on that tile) as tar/clay/peat this will make rading neigh on impossible. 

 

I really hope this isnt brought to PvP, but i do feel this is a great addition to PvE.

 

We are still actively discussing the impact this will have on PvP and what steps need to be taken to mitigate abuse. That's why in my testing posts I made sure to mention that we are not testing PvP as of yet.

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18 minutes ago, Redd said:

.... If a 3 tile dirtwall has the middle tile (no slopes on that tile) as tar/clay/peat this will make rading neigh on impossible. ...

you can't build longhouses on resource tiles.

if you insist on having 2 rows of longhouses.. what does it matter what the middle row is?

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you can transform a tile in just 1 go if you use enough liquid at once, timer is 9s so it's pretty fast

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How much liquid is needed for a realistic QL for live servers? Say 25-35QL? Not many have high beverages and getting lots of HQ fruits is random.

 

Also, this converts 1 tile, can 1 tile be dug for that resource? Refilled with dirt when it gets low? or will we have to repeat the process 4 times?

Edited by Kelody

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Whether it is brought into pvp or not doesnt matter to me (caus i can combat anything and everything).

What I would like to see is tar and clay pit at every starter town of chaos, reason?

Reason: I started on chaos on my 1st account Ignitius (at the landing starter town), and I had to make charcoal piles to get to pve for the tar. And i hated it.

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23 hours ago, Onyr said:

As with all new features, players will use this liquid in ways the Devs had not imagined.  There is often some balancing later.  It will be worked out for the best. :)

From a PVE perspective, there may be very few downsides.  Neat stuff!

 

 

In pve this wont matter due to reinforced walls, but PVP I see people digging to rock at water level around their land, dropping a dirt over the rock then changing the tile to a recsource to protect their mines better, even more so, making a safe underground, upon a major attack collapse the entrance change to tar/clay and waiting out the attack lol.

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3 hours ago, Kelody said:

How much liquid is needed for a realistic QL for live servers? Say 25-35QL? Not many have high beverages and getting lots of HQ fruits is random.

 

Also, this converts 1 tile, can 1 tile be dug for that resource? Refilled with dirt when it gets low? or will we have to repeat the process 4 times?

 Also wondering about this.

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you can dig clay on a single tile as long as you stand on the NW corner of the clay tile

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the transformation liquid ql isn't capped by juice or lumps ql, so i guess it's more a matter of having decent NS than high beverages

just tried and using 5ql lemon juice + 5ql charcoal i got 51ql liquid (99 effective NS skill but it shows it's more about NS than the items ql)

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On 2/12/2016 at 4:51 PM, Propheteer said:

and no, in all my years i have never not once seen any resource being fought over except for one or two small skirmishes.

 

Wasn't that supposed to be part of the game though? It doesn't happen, but I thought it was supposed to.

 

Maybe devs (or the community) can think of some way to remedy this issue. Even if you think of glimmer and addy as a resource, no one really fights over it (ie. at HotA) anymore because there is so damn much of it. People aren't going to fight over something that isn't rare, and things don't stay rare in this game (aside from artifacts, which have other issues) because there is always a way to guarantee certain things are introduced into the game world without a way to guarantee that those resources have a finite amount of use or time in the world before being taken out of the world (lookin' at you, drake, scale, moon metal, rare / supreme / fantastic items).

Edited by MisterTeddy
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Something's clearly wrong with PvP, apart from low numbers and quite the stagnation issues on those servers if feature after feature somehow manages to irritate them, and I think it's the current "deed vs deed" situation.  Fighting over resources will never happen, unfortunately... not with Rods of Transmutation existing, not the way tars/clays are distributed to begin with... being able to destroy them would change that to some point, specially if you gotta PROTECT THE ORCHARDS..... *or buy your juice from PvE oh yes I did* but... 

 

WO's too expensive to NOT add new features regularly, and PvP being MORE expensive, you can't expect new players to bite, specially if they read through the suggestions and weeklies and notice new features being so badly unwelcome on those servers.  Take taming, people bringing in war pets of different traits and species sounds like something that'd make for more complex and bloody combat where 2 ppl on each side could constitute an all out skirmish, while the "society" aspect of PvP would  have more roles for war beast trainers/breeders.... yet where did the taming nerfs come form?  Yeap.. 

 

I say give PvP'ers something to actually fight about instead of competing over who's got the most indestructible fortress deed..... like say.... (top of my head, don't tear my post apart bit by bit regarding mechanics)...

 

(I'm assuming deed costs are twice as much as on pve, can't be bothered checking atm)

5 control points on Chaos to keep it simple.... 

 

Holding a control point gives that kingdom a 10% discount on deed costs while held (since upkeep is practically calculated by the minute), meaning if you hold all 5, that kingdom pays like PvE while all 5 are theirs.  Give each control point some GM-terraforming and protection against further modifications for pros and cons to holding each one.  Zone around that where you restrict building while not taking it out altogether so some basic defenses can be built (size constraints, that kind of goodness).  Imho it would detract from the current "wipe their deed out" apparent main objective, making it more palatable to a wider range of players ("casual pvp'er" so to speeak?).  And in the interest of balance to keep things dynamic, have those points revert to neutral sometime around friday afternoon to kick off a few battles on weekends.  --- As for dev resources.. HoTA mechanics exist already so shouldn't be too hard AAAAND.... leaves the code ready for similar events on PvE.

 

If PvP were more dynamic then they may be less bothered with changes like making your own peat (I mean come on, that's one of the best and sandboxey-est moves I've seen from Wurm without it being a WU mod)...

 

And you'd have a drawing point for the more pve-oriented who wanna try out being a "war smith", as in a smith who actually has a reason to make 5000 arrowheads, or a "war carpenter" who'll crank out the catapults and a few 6-story wood buildings in 3 seconds while mostly ignoring the overall PvP aspect.... specially as their deeds suddenly arent' the main targets in the war, but the control points (or whatever) instead.

 

My 2 copper... 

 

 

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While I like this idea a lot regarding the tile trans but when it comes to pvp and used defensively I could see that being an issue.

First off,I know there has been many places in wurm I'd like to put a deed but tar and mostly clay were miles away. 

this gives that option to put clay at that spot which is great for the game.

 

so to counter any pvp issue those resources should be able to be dug/leveled/dredged at any skill as if it were dirt inside enemy kingdom influence on pvp servers.(but still follows the digging skill/height requirement) give it a high skill requirement to use and not able to be used in enemy kingdom lands to keep it from a greifing tool as much as possible. tar, peat, and clay in your kingdom lands will dig as if it were clay and tar now to not burn through insane amounts of dirt that would normally be used for the walls or be easily dug down using same kingdom abuse.  

 

I think all kingdoms should go to an alliance based enemies similar to the way HotS work but with towers being templete and allianced based with neutral starter towns for all kingdoms might be better in general. I mean someone might like the kingdom their in but not 1 or more people in it. this gives them a way to exile said players while still remaining in the kingdom. if they aren't people you want to fight with why would you want them as an ally? This is pvp after all. Bring back cross kingdom alliances since gods can basically have all kingdom spells eventually.

 

my thoughts on fighting/defending for resources - new map example clay and tar would be removed easily outside your kingdom influence and removed easily by the enemy inside your kingdom influence. "there is  some clay to start a new tower near the start deed". players would want to build defenses to prevent (any)others from removing a resource tile easily. A small clay/tar/peat patch would only grant a 1 for 1 dirt to clay/tar/peat if not in your influence so expanding the influence makes those resources better*. obviously if it isn't worth defending what ever if someone digs it up oh well. until eventually those resource locations would be moderately phased out by tile trans for established deeds/players. making players want/need to explore, fight or defend for top side resources especially early on. if the resource can't be lost there is no need to fight or defend to remove/save it.

 

 

 

Edited by Aetherion

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On 2/14/2016 at 8:28 AM, Mordraug said:

If PvP were more dynamic

 

no more needs to be said - this is all of PvP's problems in five words

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another update where the dev's forget this game has pvp. It's pretty clear the intentions is to just kill off pvp and focus on a sand-box game.

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