Sign in to follow this  
Etherdrifter

Thoughts On The Wurm Economy

Recommended Posts

On 2/25/2016 at 0:41 AM, SeeD said:

inflation solves nothing

 

So what would happen if two high end crafters were in the same area? competition is a natural part of any economy

 

 

the point Cista was making about more money in the economy was to increase aggregate demand.  Inflation is a side effect when aggregate demand exceeds productive capacity.  so while it is true inflation solves nothing - that statement had little relevance to the discussion.

 

I also believe you are missing the point on the mail/high end crafter discussion.  The purpose is not some plot do do away with competition.  The purpose is to make separate smaller local markets so more people can take part in the competition.  While this would be bad in RL, it has benefits in a video game where a portion of the player base will see participation in the markets as a valid end game choice.

 

Also I can get behind a starter town portal idea, would work amazingly well with an increase in mail price :)  This game can grow dull when most people rarely leave their deeds.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Only been playing for about five months and it's fairly obvious I'll most likely never buy anything in game since the process is fairly painful.  Arkonick has hit the nail squarely on the head here.  Currently if I was interested in buying or selling my options are reading forum posts outside the game or posting/reading the trade chat.  I fairly certain I'm not the only one that think's this is a terrible way to implement an in game economy based on getting buyer and sellers together.

 

If there was a way to tie all the in game merchant's per server together people would actually be able to see what's for sale on the server.  Transactions between servers would need to be addressed as well.  Then there has to be a way to improve selling/buying of bulk items.

 

Either way right now all we have is a mess of wtb and wts forum posts or in game chat messages that doesn't work anymore.  

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, balthasar said:

Only been playing for about five months and it's fairly obvious I'll most likely never buy anything in game since the process is fairly painful.  Arkonick has hit the nail squarely on the head here.  Currently if I was interested in buying or selling my options are reading forum posts outside the game or posting/reading the trade chat.  I fairly certain I'm not the only one that think's this is a terrible way to implement an in game economy based on getting buyer and sellers together.

 

If there was a way to tie all the in game merchant's per server together people would actually be able to see what's for sale on the server.  Transactions between servers would need to be addressed as well.  Then there has to be a way to improve selling/buying of bulk items.

 

Either way right now all we have is a mess of wtb and wts forum posts or in game chat messages that doesn't work anymore.  

Nice to hear from a newish player :)

You do have the option to go to an ingame marketplace and look for things there, I did that a lot when I was "growing up". It is kinda fun the first 3 times, but it gets very tedious.

 

I absolutely agree with you that we have to move past the need for personal conversation on forums or ingame. But at the same time I insist that a location-bound presence and transport of items is necessary in order for many people to be allowed to enjoy trading. While we may one day maybe the former, we will unfortunately never get the latter.

 

My ideal solution would be that all merchants or deed tokens allowed you access to view prices and stock for the nearest auction house, and bid / adjust your prices, in a modern auction house interface. The actual auction house with the stock would then be in each spawn point. (Villages could maybe build extra auction houses).  

Edited by Cista

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On the subject of 'ease of trade' this is a big choke point. It is incredibly tedious going through the various merchants in a marketplace and looking down their short list of wares, then checking the other merchants and trying to remember what was where and for how much and at what QL. Most of the time it's not what you were looking for or even need.

 

Even the trade channel is not really what you need. Just lots of top end items or bulk shipments.

 

IF there was a simple 'auction house', I would know that the chances of me getting something I actually wanted were quite high. Maybe I've just run out of iron, and want an extra couple of lumps. Maybe I just want a couple of higher QL lumps to imp with. I don't want 1000 of them.. I don't need rare iron... just a couple of decent ones around my BS level. An auction house system would make this easy, and would facilitate huge amounts of small trade. It would also open up the marketplace for mid-range players. New players don't need 90ql iron.. they are happy enough with their  BS skill +10. Same goes for logs and any other resource.

 

Anyone wishing to grind, could purchase some from here, some from there, and a bit more from someone else without needing to find one person to supply all of it.

 

Players also don't need to wait until they have enough of an item together to sell in a bulk load. They can just sell the bits they have.

 

 

One possible way to implement it would be that when you trade with a merchant, it shows you (in one window) ALL the items on all merchants within a 100 tile radius. When you buy, the money goes to the merchant actually stocking that item, wherever he may be located, but the item is collected from the merchant you are trading with.

 

So, to sell, you still need a merchant and if its in range of commonly visited traders, your items will still be seem by many people even if you are 'off the beaten track'. Market hubs will form which are in a good position amongst local traders to optimise the number of merchants within range - as opposed to the current locations which are more to do with starting towns and shipping.

 

I know I would certainly end up buying odd bits and bobs if this was the case. Especially if I could 'access' a lot of local traders items just by checking my own merchant.

 

At the moment, the 10s pricetag of a merchant - escpecially if you don't live in a populated area and dont have much to sell is excessive. However, if this meant you could (from your own on-deed merchant) view all local merchants and purchase from home,it would be well worth it. It would also allow you to participate in the economy side of things and would build communities.

 

I know I for one would end up making a lot of small purchases and sales. But 99% of the stuff in trade channel and on forums I have zero interest in. Allow me to buy 2 or 3 60ql logs, without the hassles of PMs, Mailing or waiting for that neighbour to be online and not busy and I surely will.

 

Edit: (Addition)

 

I wouldn't want a global list though...
A  It means way too much to look through

B. takes out any meta-game of logistics and trasportation. 

C. nullifies any 'localised' resources.

 

An easy to view 'local area' commodities also then allows for new meta-game for travelling merchants. Travel to an area you know sells a lot of cheap crops, transport them to an area lacking them where local prices are much higher and sell them on a merchant there. A new 'wagon type' could even be implemented that acts as a moveable merchant. Leave it in an area when you log off in range of other merchants and all your travelling merchandise is available in that local market while you are offline.

 

The trade channel would still be used globally for the 'top end' crafted and casted items and for 'bulk quantities' of bricks/dirt/whatever. Auctions would still exist too. But it opens the whole marketplace up to everyone. Not just the top few crafters and the small number of occasional buyers.

Edited by Tinkerer
  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Cista said:

Nice to hear from a newish player :)

You do have the option to go to an ingame marketplace and look for things there, I did that a lot when I was "growing up". It is kinda fun the first 3 times, but it gets very tedious.

 

I absolutely agree with you that we have to move past the need for personal conversation on forums or ingame. But at the same time I insist that a location-bound presence and transport of items is necessary in order for many people to be allowed to enjoy trading. While we may one day maybe the former, we will unfortunately never get the latter.

 

My ideal solution would be that all merchants or deed tokens allowed you access to view prices and stock for the nearest auction house, and bid / adjust your prices, in a modern auction house interface. The actual auction house with the stock would then be in each spawn point. (Villages could maybe build extra auction houses).  

 

Hello Cista,

 

Yep I have done the in game merchants and in general I like the idea.  I see the in game merchants as a player announcing to the other players there intention to enter the in game economy as a seller.  Where it falls short is that you see a very small sample of what is for sale within the game and it really only bring sellers and buyers together on very small scale.  Now you can ride around all day visiting merchants but that becomes rather boring after a little while.

 

It would be nice if they could say tie all the merchants on Xanadu together on the back end and a player could see all that is for sale on the Xanadu server.  There would need to be filters in place to remove the items you weren't interested in.  The listing could include delivery options, location of merchant and others that I'm sure I'm missing.  They could even add a bulk items listing that could only be listed if it met the predetermined required amount of say 500 or 1k. 

 

As far as players wanting to sale between servers I think a special type of merchant would be needed.  For lack of a better name I'll call it the Kings Traders.  Sellers would go to the Kings Traders on their server and list their items for sale.  Players on other server could visit their servers Kings Trader and see inter server listings.  They would be the same as intra server merchants with the listing showing delivery options, location of the Kings Trader where the item was listed and other things I'm missing for sure.

 

I just think we really need to look at how things are sold within the game before we even try to say the economy is dead.  People can't find what they are looking for currently so they just give up and make it their self.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

WoW has a lot of trade in game that is easily accessible to everyone but the difference from WO is that it costs the player there nothing additional in RL currency to participate in this in-game economy. That is a real "game" economy because it is restricted to the game and is "paid for" by the time the player puts into the game to make the currency (in-game gold) necessary to trade in these items.

 

The Wurm "economy" is not a true in-game economy because it is funded from outside the game with RL currencies; thus, when you put any impediments into trade within the game as has been suggested here you increase the cost for playing the game for those who purchase these items. Sure, it is fine for those that sell these items within Wurm and their self interest in making coins then leads them to dream up these ideas for them to make more of it. It doesn't matter if they use it to pay for their game expenses, pay other players to do things for them, or sell these coins off for RL funds. The end result is the same, they profit and the buyers loose.

 

This system within Wurm is much different than other in-game economies and the result is that a few make money from playing the game and others pay for it with their own hard earned money. As I said before, attempt to create ways and impediments to increase your money making capabilities within the game and you increase the costs for other players. In the end they will either seek ways to be less dependent upon your services, purchase less items or simply leave the game and find another where players don't have the capability to make a profit from their participation in the game.

 

Now with the advent of Wurm's brother Wurm Unlimited, players have a way to escape these increased costs put upon them by other players and still play the base game that they have enjoyed all these years. This WO player "economy" will yet lead to decreasing numbers of players and perhaps even the downfall of WO if some of these suggestions to "improve" the Wurm "economy" are followed. Add onto that that some players still want to be fed free coins from Rolf through Traders, Token sales, Bot/Forage, Mob kills, that other players have paid for through the Wurm Shop and you only compound the problem.

 

Happy Trails (indeed)

=Ayes=

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Ayes said:

1)

... That is a real "game" economy because it is restricted to the game and is "paid for" by the time the player puts into the game to make the currency (in-game gold) necessary to trade in these items.

 

The Wurm "economy" is not a true in-game economy because it is funded from outside the game with RL currencies;

 

2)

thus, when you put any impediments into trade within the game as has been suggested here you increase the cost for playing the game for those who purchase these items. 

 

3)

The end result is the same, they profit and the buyers loose.

 

7 hours ago, Ayes said:

4)

This system within Wurm is much different than other in-game economies and the result is that a few make money from playing the game and others pay for it with their own hard earned money.

 

5)

This WO player "economy" will yet lead to decreasing numbers of players and perhaps even the downfall of WO if some of these suggestions to "improve" the Wurm "economy" are followed.

 

 

1)  I suppose that is one way of defining a 'real' game economy, but many would disagree.  The main difference between wow and wurm is wow has a fiat currency and wurm has a commodity currency (like the gold standard). The main difference between the two is that fiat currencies have a built in inflationary bias while commodity currencies have a built in deflationary bias.

 

2) this is only true if items in wurm have a very high elasticity of demand, otherwise conventional economics suggest overall quantity demanded of said items will decrease.

 

3) Most voluntary market transactions are to the benefit of both buyer and seller (otherwise it doesn't happen) and would be considered a win-win.  hard for a buyer to voluntarily lose

 

4) I do not believe that the RWT aspect of wurms currency is what is to blame for the income inequality in wurm.  If RWT was the main culprit, we would have had this situation back in 2009-2011.  I can attest that in those years there was an ample market for mid tier goods.  The main culprit imo is that a few elite crafters are leagues above the rest in terms of productive efficiency, coupled with in game technologies (such as mail or non linear production times versus quality level) that allow those same few elite crafters easy access to the entire customer base.

 

5)  Actually wurm had growing population back when mail was more expensive and many things could not be mailed, back when all your mats were destroyed if you failed at creation.  There were many people involved in buying and selling mid level goods and it kept players in the game longer.  But code club kept pandering to the participation trophy crowd and ultimately wurms population had started stagnating even before WU.

 

 

Ayes - your posts are always suggesting that it is this elite group of crafters that are just out to get more of your money.  The main goal of this thread is actually how direct some of the profits away that elite group and to spread it around to a larger player base that wishes to take part in the market as their end game. 

 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

back in the days without FSB/BSB/crates/magic chests... and 50ql iron was high-end!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎2‎/‎28‎/‎2016 at 10:46 PM, hankrearden said:

Ayes - your posts are always suggesting that it is this elite group of crafters that are just out to get more of your money.  The main goal of this thread is actually how direct some of the profits away that elite group and to spread it around to a larger player base that wishes to take part in the market as their end game. 

 

Yes, the first sentence is what I believe. Now this doesn't mean that I necessarily consider them bad people for doing so because the game allows this to happen. So the way to reduce this opportunity is to attempt to point out what is actually happening and how suggestions made that would increase their opportunity to do so should not be implemented, which I have already done on some specific suggestions.

 

As for the second part of your statement, although at times the goal of suggestions may be to distribute the wealth between crafters, so to speak, the end result is the same. That is by attempting to introduce protective trade practices which in turn increase prices for player consumers the result is the same, they pay more. In some suggestions that is blatantly apparent, such as either returning mail costs to their previous level or even increasing them in order to discourage players from purchasing from a competitive game market and "encourage" them to buy locally.

 

The lowered mail prices are a boon to player consumers as they can now *afford to more freely send, receive and purchase items over all servers. This then actually encourages player Trade but yes, they will then buy from either the cheapest seller or someone they prefer to deal with. To try to stifle this global server Trade in a number of ways suggested under the guise of spreading the wealth is pretty apparent to me and unfortunately at times at can't resist the temptation to point this out. Too much self interest in figuring out ways to make more coins in game (which means from other players) occasionally comes to the surface and then offers the opportunity to speak out against it. So yes, you have me figured out in that respect.

 

If the currency for these types of transactions were in-game only like in UO or WoW, prices would not concern me in the least because the only cost would be the time required put into playing the game normally to make it. Then the game will only cost the subscription fee or initial purchase in some cases. Linking game coins to RL currencies as Wurm does totally changes the situation both for crafters and players. Then crafters want to make more, which "taking part in the market" equates to and players want to pay less. Therein lies one of the big conflicts within Wurm, with some players on both side of the equation being more concerned about it than others.

 

The end result is that it pits these two player sectors against each other because each is looking out for their pocketbooks, which is only to be expected. Rolf's RL money connection is poorly thought out in that by offering players the opportunity to make RL money from playing the game and reduce their playing costs by doing so it only puts the onus of supporting the game's continuation and progress by those who don't participate in this money making aspect of the game. So if they enjoy the game enough they will attempt to become more self-sufficient in many ways to avoid this RL money additional expense and still not participate in attempting to make any money from playing the game since it is not their focus. Still they pay the price for it by the way Rolf set it up for the crafters, Trader drainers and coin drop seekers to avoid these costs.

 

The solution then is not for these buyers to participate within this money making process, that would only drain game income and there would be less of it to go around. Broadening this market won't work, *even if the purchasers of items were interested in participating in it*, because eventually the source of these funds, players who pay for playing the game through the Wurm Shop, is all drained out. The only thing that keeps this whole thing afloat is those players who don't want to make money from playing the game and just buy their currency from the Wurm Shop, not from other players by the way. If Rolf drops game coins on their heads when they play the game from normal activities there is little they can do about it, since they are not seeking these coins out and have previously just paid for playing the game from the Wurm Shop. It is up to him to figure out what is the best way to encourage others to play the game but to do so at the expense of players who pay for it will eventually cause their discontent and only drain game profits further.

 

This game is not like a real world economy since it is funded from outside of it by *some players, so in turn thinking it will function on the same basis is a fallacy. The earth is not funded by an alien race from the unknown, it is all a contained environment. Unlike the earth, players who finance the game from the Wurm Shop can simply walk away from it. With the advent of WU many have and partially it is because it is much easier on the pocketbook and not structured in such a way as to lure players to the servers by making RL money from playing there. It's all just for enjoyment and Wurm Online would be better off if it would do the same by removing the RL life profit, game cost reducing aspects from it. Wishful thinking I know but while a shred of life remains, so does hope.

 

Happy Trails

=Ayes=

 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
48 minutes ago, Ayes said:

 

Yes, the first sentence is what I believe. Now this doesn't mean that I necessarily consider them bad people for doing so because the game allows this to happen. So the way to reduce this opportunity is to attempt to point out what is actually happening and how suggestions made that would increase their opportunity to do so should not be implemented, which I have already done on some specific suggestions.

 

As for the second part of your statement, although at times the goal of suggestions may be to distribute the wealth between crafters, so to speak, the end result is the same. That is by attempting to introduce protective trade practices which in turn increase prices for player consumers the result is the same, they pay more. In some suggestions that is blatantly apparent, such as either returning mail costs to their previous level or even increasing them in order to discourage players from purchasing from a competitive game market and "encourage" them to buy locally.

 

The lowered mail prices are a boon to player consumers as they can now *afford to more freely send, receive and purchase items over all servers. This then actually encourages player Trade but yes, they will then buy from either the cheapest seller or someone they prefer to deal with. To try to stifle this global server Trade in a number of ways suggested under the guise of spreading the wealth is pretty apparent to me and unfortunately at times at can't resist the temptation to point this out. Too much self interest in figuring out ways to make more coins in game (which means from other players) occasionally comes to the surface and then offers the opportunity to speak out against it. So yes, you have me figured out in that respect.

 

If the currency for these types of transactions were in-game only like in UO or WoW, prices would not concern me in the least because the only cost would be the time required put into playing the game normally to make it. Then the game will only cost the subscription fee or initial purchase in some cases. Linking game coins to RL currencies as Wurm does totally changes the situation both for crafters and players. Then crafters want to make more, which "taking part in the market" equates to and players want to pay less. Therein lies one of the big conflicts within Wurm, with some players on both side of the equation being more concerned about it than others.

 

The end result is that it pits these two player sectors against each other because each is looking out for their pocketbooks, which is only to be expected. Rolf's RL money connection is poorly thought out in that by offering players the opportunity to make RL money from playing the game and reduce their playing costs by doing so it only puts the onus of supporting the game's continuation and progress by those who don't participate in this money making aspect of the game. So if they enjoy the game enough they will attempt to become more self-sufficient in many ways to avoid this RL money additional expense and still not participate in attempting to make any money from playing the game since it is not their focus. Still they pay the price for it by the way Rolf set it up for the crafters, Trader drainers and coin drop seekers to avoid these costs.

 

The solution then is not for these buyers to participate within this money making process, that would only drain game income and there would be less of it to go around. Broadening this market won't work, *even if the purchasers of items were interested in participating in it*, because eventually the source of these funds, players who pay for playing the game through the Wurm Shop, is all drained out. The only thing that keeps this whole thing afloat is those players who don't want to make money from playing the game and just buy their currency from the Wurm Shop, not from other players by the way. If Rolf drops game coins on their heads when they play the game from normal activities there is little they can do about it, since they are not seeking these coins out and have previously just paid for playing the game from the Wurm Shop. It is up to him to figure out what is the best way to encourage others to play the game but to do so at the expense of players who pay for it will eventually cause their discontent and only drain game profits further.

 

This game is not like a real world economy since it is funded from outside of it by *some players, so in turn thinking it will function on the same basis is a fallacy. The earth is not funded by an alien race from the unknown, it is all a contained environment. Unlike the earth, players who finance the game from the Wurm Shop can simply walk away from it. With the advent of WU many have and partially it is because it is much easier on the pocketbook and not structured in such a way as to lure players to the servers by making RL money from playing there. It's all just for enjoyment and Wurm Online would be better off if it would do the same by removing the RL life profit, game cost reducing aspects from it. Wishful thinking I know but while a shred of life remains, so does hope.

 

Happy Trails

=Ayes=

 

I couldn't agree more. An this is why 90% of those people who come to play WO leave. People come to play WO not wall street stock exchange. While RL money is they key to the game your gamer population will always be small.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just talked to a friend about this. I know of one game only that has a working completely player drive economy - EVE Online. Local markets are a driving force there that could also have worked in Wurm.

 

The ingredients would be:

 

- Localized resources

- Trade hubs

 

The first would have been easy to implement. Localized ore, localized trees (certain trees just couldn't be grown too far north or south), maybe even localized wildlife, etc.

 

Why we don't see trade hubs is that projects usually take huge amounts of materials. Merchants hold 50 items and don't buy stuff for you. There is the problem preventing markets. It could have been solved either by local NPC auction houses (no global sales!) in the starter towns or NPCs similar to merchants that would buy and sell not just for the owner but for everyone putting up orders there (possibly giving a (very) small share to the owning village coffers). A lot of these would probably be put up but over time the best spots that would be actively pushed by motivated people would turn into hubs. People could buy low and sell higher, peddlers could shift goods - more things to do. More possibilities for people to meet other people and interact. An overall good effect.

 

Before people shout "I don't want to travel to get stuff!" - People wouldn't *have* to travel around a lot to get what they needed - you want Oak wood that doesn't grow in your area? You could either buy local and pay more or you do travel and buy cheaper. Either way you can get the goods. Where there is demand there would be supply.

 

Now tell me why this couldn't work in Wurm. I bet there are reasons ^^

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Eltaran said:

- Localized resources

i still wonder why we only have this with grapes... i agree it should be for more resources!

 

for ore it was tried, but somehow it failed by the implementation as iron was too scarce (if i remember correct).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Eltaran said:

- Localized resources

- Trade hubs

 

Nothing to do with the extremely high level of control over automated sources and sinks in the marketplace, what those artificial sources and sinks are and mean to their usage group, massive number of crafting reagents, massive number of different types of similar modules for customization and budgeting, research about the flow of new materials, server optimizations to allow trade hubs to support their own popularity? Yknow just off the top of my head, none of those things that make both EVE and CCP really impressive?

 

EVE's economy is driven by the players, led by the nose. Yes this is done very well, but are you willing to accept an economy that is operated by a system similar to valrei missions? Because a system like that disincentivizes player trade and probably also causes inflation. If you really wanna do it like EVE but in wurm, which I know isn't what you are saying but still needs to be said, you could very easily end up with a worthless currency in a single misstep.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Eltaran said:

Just talked to a friend about this. I know of one game only that has a working completely player drive economy - EVE Online. Local markets are a driving force there that could also have worked in Wurm.

 

The ingredients would be:

 

- Localized resources

- Trade hubs

 

Question, because I've never played Eve.  Regarding the trade hubs, what is the average travel time to get to one of those trade hubs?  Being a space game, seems like it would probably be pretty fast & easy. If so, that might help explain how it's successful and can function alongside localized resources.  In Wurm, travel times would stand in the way of trade hubs ever being anything more than the marketplaces we have now, which are a pain to get to,  and localized resources would make it an even bigger pain, imo.

 

In any case, I'm totally against localized resources but I am a big fan of trade hubs if they're relatively easy to reach.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Eltaran said:

Just talked to a friend about this. I know of one game only that has a working completely player drive economy - EVE Online. Local markets are a driving force there that could also have worked in Wurm.

 

The ingredients would be:

 

- Localized resources

- Trade hubs

 

The first would have been easy to implement. Localized ore, localized trees (certain trees just couldn't be grown too far north or south), maybe even localized wildlife, etc.

 

Why we don't see trade hubs is that projects usually take huge amounts of materials. Merchants hold 50 items and don't buy stuff for you. There is the problem preventing markets. It could have been solved either by local NPC auction houses (no global sales!) in the starter towns or NPCs similar to merchants that would buy and sell not just for the owner but for everyone putting up orders there (possibly giving a (very) small share to the owning village coffers). A lot of these would probably be put up but over time the best spots that would be actively pushed by motivated people would turn into hubs. People could buy low and sell higher, peddlers could shift goods - more things to do. More possibilities for people to meet other people and interact. An overall good effect.

 

Before people shout "I don't want to travel to get stuff!" - People wouldn't *have* to travel around a lot to get what they needed - you want Oak wood that doesn't grow in your area? You could either buy local and pay more or you do travel and buy cheaper. Either way you can get the goods. Where there is demand there would be supply.

 

Now tell me why this couldn't work in Wurm. I bet there are reasons ^^

THANK YOU! I HAVE BEEN TRYING TO SAY THIS ALL THREAD AND AM HAPPY I HAVE 1 PERSON WHO REMOTELY AGREES

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/28/2016 at 10:46 PM, hankrearden said:

 The main goal of this thread is actually how direct some of the profits away that elite group and to spread it around to a larger player base that wishes to take part in the market as their end game. 

 

 

I wouldn't say that's my goal. I want to buy from whoever I want to buy from, and I don't want to buy the same stuff over and over and over just to satisfy some people who want to sell stuff. For some things, like a weapon, or armor, or certain tools, I want to buy the best quality thing I can find/afford; for bulk items that doesn't matter as much. But almost as importantly, I want to buy it from someone who gives me a nice transaction. I'll pay more if it means the person keeps their word, if they don't waste my time, if they're easy to communicate with, if they can deliver the goods fairly quickly, if they WILL deliver, efficiently, if I don't feel like they're playing games with me about prices, etc. Maybe the elite group is elite because they give pleasant transactions.

 

I'm not saying I don't want to buy stuff - I will always need new things and will buy them - but I don't want to re-buy, and HAVE to buy when I don't feel like doing so just then.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, LorraineJ said:
7 hours ago, Amadee said:

 

Question, because I've never played Eve.  Regarding the trade hubs, what is the average travel time to get to one of those trade hubs?  Being a space game, seems like it would probably be pretty fast & easy. If so, that might help explain how it's successful and can function alongside localized resources.  In Wurm, travel times would stand in the way of trade hubs ever being anything more than the marketplaces we have now, which are a pain to get to,  and localized resources would make it an even bigger pain, imo.

 

In any case, I'm totally against localized resources but I am a big fan of trade hubs if they're relatively easy to reach.

I wouldn't say that's my goal. I want to buy from whoever I want to buy from, and I don't want to buy the same stuff over and over and over just to satisfy some people who want to sell stuff. For some things, like a weapon, or armor, or certain tools, I want to buy the best quality thing I can find/afford; for bulk items that doesn't matter as much. But almost as importantly, I want to buy it from someone who gives me a nice transaction. I'll pay more if it means the person keeps their word, if they don't waste my time, if they're easy to communicate with, if they can deliver the goods fairly quickly, if they WILL deliver, efficiently, if I don't feel like they're playing games with me about prices, etc. Maybe the elite group is elite because they give pleasant transactions.

 

I'm not saying I don't want to buy stuff - I will always need new things and will buy them - but I don't want to re-buy, and HAVE to buy when I don't feel like doing so just then.

 

The travel time in EVE largely depends ony what ship you use. But let us assume you are using an industrial ship or a freighter, then I'd say the travel time from one hub to another hub is 30 - 40 minutes, longer on autopilot (which you shouldn't use with a full hold). From the oustkirts of some remote region in the middle of nowhere it can also take a lot longer.

 

Bulk trade is what can still be improved without changing too much of the exisiting systems. Personally I don't want to grind thousands of bricks to sell them for example. If I could just take what I can bear to make to a trading post to partially fill someones buy order that would make me a happy puppy already. So I could make a crate full of QL X bricks, take them to a trading post nearby, sell 300 of the 5000 bricks someone else wants to buy of QL X to Y (or any QL) and would be happy. As it stands I have to save up until I have a few thousand AND I need to find a buyer via trade/forum AND I need to see how I ship them to whoever wants to buy.

 

The only point speaking against being able to trade bulk via NPCs is 'bank' but then just have the merchants we have now for finished items and bulk brokers that can only take stuff you can put in a BSB, FSB or crate for building blocks or something... it's not so hard to come up with solutions really.

Edited by Eltaran
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Eltaran said:

The only point speaking against being able to trade bulk via NPCs is 'bank' but then just have the merchants we have now for finished items and bulk brokers that can only take stuff you can put in a BSB, FSB or crate for building blocks or something... it's not so hard to come up with solutions really.

 

Actually, I think something like this would be nice for newbies as well.  If they could take their efforts to somewhere and sell them piecemeal to make a few coins, I think that would be a good thing. And in turn, someone else might come along and see 100 bricks for a good price, for instance, and grab them. Would need an easy way to get our carts to a marketplace though. 

 

For large bulk orders, I still prefer to deal with someone who is willing to make it and deliver it (and there will always be those willing to do that), but I'd also not be against *running* over to a bulk merchant to grab a couple hundred of something when I'm in a hurry to get something done and too lazy...erm..energy efficient to make them myself.  As things are right now, it's impractical to only buy a couple hundred bulk items from anyone and even if we could do it at a marketplace, transferring anything bulk from a merchant to my ship, for instance, would make that impractical.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Unless there is a decent ingame system for trading where you do not need both players online at the same time, that does not rely on the trade chat or forums, and does not rely on huge amounts of travel time or trying to locate a specific merchant, localised resources are a pain in the proverbial.

 

From my experience, trade chat is only for 'special items' or huge bulk sales. The forums are mostly for the the 'top crafters' or people auctioning off everything due to leaving. There is nothing for Joe Schmoe average player to make a few copper from odd stuff he crafts as he goes about his day to day life. There is nowhere convenient for him to sell these goods.

 

Say that Joe Schmoe actually wants to sell a few items semi regularly.. he *could* buy a merchant and make daily trips to a market hub. But, firstly this uses a huge amount of game time travelling back an forth for such a few measly items and secondly, he will there be competing with all the other merchants. No one with coin who deliberately went to the market is likely to buy his goods.

 

Or, he could buy a merchant and keep him ondeed. This requires several people in the local area, constantly coming passed to check his merchant. Again, he's not going to get much except for glorified storage.

 

Yes, merchants *can* make the initial investment of 10s back, but only if you are selling a lot of stuff that people actually are interested in buying.

 

Viewing 'mediocre items' available for sale must be made far easier in order for it to be an appealing notion for most players. I am all for the existing model for 'bulk shipping' and the logistics of delivering x thousang dirt or bricks, and for the mailling system and trade chat spam for super enchanted, and rare equipment, but something needs to be added for all the stuff that falls outside of these categories. I certainly wouldn't want a global auction house though.

 

I still think the locally linked merchants idea I mentioned previously could work well to fill the gap for the mid-range players. Especially if merchants were slightly cheaper as an investment, enticing many more players to make use of them.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How far would the local link reach though and what defines the center of the link? Or would merchants just be linked to all merchants in a radius of X tiles?

 

A combination of both would be great IMHO. Linked merchants that can also buy and sell bulk materials of a QL range defined by the user. It would make using them more worthwhile but would still allow for local markets. You could tell your merchant to buy X amount of Y at QL range A-Z and check back at your leisure to see if goods were sold to you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well (for example) your merchant kept on your own deed, would just list everything on other merchants within a 100 or <insert better value here> tiles radius from his current position. You can then buy anything from any of them from your merchant. Likewise, anyone else within that radius will be able to see your merchant's goods and purchase from their own location.  (in effect it could be thought of as your merchant actually wanders off to scout the local area and does the fetching or delivery of items - almost like it's taken for granted that a templar repairs structures and lights lamps.. even though you never see him do it)

 

Without huge loads of extra code to set up a 'buy orders' system, that can be easily overcome by the players. I could just put a uselsss item into my merchants inventory (as some people already do for various services) and rename it 'looking for 500 bricks'. Anyone within radius who has spare bricks to sell, can then pop them onto their own merchant for you to see and purchase from them next time you are online.

 

A lower purchase cost of buying a merchant contract would also encourage a lot more players to have merchants (if the 'linked merchants' feature wasn't enough on it's own), but for me the single biggest hassle is having to click individually on countless merchants and slowly walk around comparing and writing down notes on a piece of paper to remember what was where... not to mention all the merchants with items for sale but not within a market hub that I will probably never come across.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Suddenly this would become the defacto place to look when in urgent need of something, and most of these needs would not be for the top-end items or bulk items for future plans. Suddenly there's a big market for anything less than 'top quality'. Not only that, but checking merchants can let you see what other local players might be wanting, and possibly gives you something new to do when you log in.

 

How many times have you logged in - done your basic deed chores and tended your fields then thought.. hmm.. ok what shall I do today? And then been unsure of what to work on. Check you merchant.. perhaps there's an item on a neighbours merchant asking for someone to enchant their pickaxe, perhaps there's a note for 20 concrete,.. you have tasks to do that will actually earn you some coin! On top of that, you get to semi-socialise with neighbours despite them being in different time-zones and not online at the same time as you.

 

Small items like a few kg of mid ranged cotton, or strings, or lumps of metals, mid-ql logs and other 'imping materials' have great small-scale saleability. You can advertise locally to sell your wares without having to be online together or use out-of-game systems. Localised resources can now be simply traded - even chained across the server, one merchant at a time.

 

For example: A has lead, puts some on his merchant to test the water.. B (80 tiles away) buys but doesn't really need, but knows the lead vein is quite a walk away.. keeps some, and put some back on his merchant with a markup. C has no idea where lead is and is about 150 from A but sees 'B's merchant with lead... buys it all.   A knows lead sells, B knows lead sells.. C (and possible D, E, F getting further and further away) are all interested in small amounts of lead. Not enough to warrant a forum post or a 'bulk shipment order' or even anyone's time in physically delivering it or even the mail costs involved, but there IS a market for small amounts locally.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/5/2016 at 2:02 PM, Eltaran said:

Just talked to a friend about this. I know of one game only that has a working completely player drive economy - EVE Online. Local markets are a driving force there that could also have worked in Wurm.

 

The ingredients would be:

 

- Localized resources

- Trade hubs

 

The first would have been easy to implement. Localized ore, localized trees (certain trees just couldn't be grown too far north or south), maybe even localized wildlife, etc.

 

Why we don't see trade hubs is that projects usually take huge amounts of materials. Merchants hold 50 items and don't buy stuff for you. There is the problem preventing markets. It could have been solved either by local NPC auction houses (no global sales!) in the starter towns or NPCs similar to merchants that would buy and sell not just for the owner but for everyone putting up orders there (possibly giving a (very) small share to the owning village coffers). A lot of these would probably be put up but over time the best spots that would be actively pushed by motivated people would turn into hubs. People could buy low and sell higher, peddlers could shift goods - more things to do. More possibilities for people to meet other people and interact. An overall good effect.

 

Before people shout "I don't want to travel to get stuff!" - People wouldn't *have* to travel around a lot to get what they needed - you want Oak wood that doesn't grow in your area? You could either buy local and pay more or you do travel and buy cheaper. Either way you can get the goods. Where there is demand there would be supply.

 

Now tell me why this couldn't work in Wurm. I bet there are reasons ^^

 

The thing about EVE though is they have incursions which infuse ungodly amounts of money into the economy. The also have deadspace that drops insignias that you can buy blueprints and stuff for faction gear. We don't have any of that stuff here. Money is infused into Wurm through someone's bank account (less the small amount Rolf dispenses into the grass). Mobs drop meat. Uniques drop valued items but look at the drama surrounding them and the sheer volume of players that attend for a chance at 1/300th of a set of armor. 

You can't really compare any market in any other game to Wurm and apply any of their principles because mobs don't drop loot and the game does not generate currency. 

Side Note: I love incursions in EVE. Mention of it makes me want to go back for a month to do some. :P

 

EDIT: #1 reason this will not work. A small amount of people will hoard all of the iron and clay regions and become the Railroad Tycoons of Wurm.

Edited by Audrel

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, the linked merchants would certainly be a good idea if merchants could hold more than 50 units of BULK materials. That is a must in my opinion.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this