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Etherdrifter

Thoughts On The Wurm Economy

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2 minutes ago, Eltaran said:

Lower value doesn't bother me, just the fact that there is absolutely no market for low and mid-QL items (which is the original topic). If there was a realistic chance to sell non-enchanted QL 30 or 50 items that would be fine.

 

It also doesn't help new players that you need 10s to install a merchant (what does rectify this high price for such a basic functionality anyways?). Personally I just don't see myself shell out 16€ for a merchant that won't sell stuff anyways.

 

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I dont sell enchanted items, just random rares i make, items i find and things i no longer need, I've had that merchant for almost a year now, it's paid for itself well.

 

I dont think many games do have much of a market for low/mid tier items, most mmos focus on the endgame items being the majority of the market.

 

I also dont agree with the bulk market being aimed at new solo players, the last thing we want new players to do is feel they have to make  5000 bricks to enjoy the game, 

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Something needs to happen soon, market is really sliding down badly currently.  Prices are adjusting to the undercutting that is happening because nothing is selling. There have been some excellent points mentioned here but as players we really can't fix the problem so I really hope Rolf and friends are reading this.

 

Thanks.

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On 26/01/2016 at 3:14 PM, Dairuka said:

My thoughts: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1vITEC7jweYBMvTI9ABOwD-fddIa9iP4Cc8Sj9Rve_Vs/edit

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Wurm’s economy is a deflationary nightmare. With an overabundance of high skilled crafting characters that are not being funneled out due to the rule of selling accounts being legal. The flow of new money coming onto the market is severely limited to only the whales who purchase the silver at large rates, or the King’s Coffers. What it doesn’t take into account is the large amount of money being saved, or hoarded, by players who have no intention of reselling it into the market, or purchasing new goods.

 

This has led to a situation where money is greatly overvalued, to the point where the prices of products and services has been steadily falling. Smart, aspiring merchants can take advantage of mass production and volume sales in this market - but this is a woeful situation for almost everybody else.

 

Unfortunately, after much deliberation among a think tank of peers - We have not been able to come up with a solution to stem the tide of deflation without either:

 

  • Constantly injecting new silver into the economy at a very fast rate. For free. (This loses you money)

  • Banning the capability of selling accounts entirely, thus potentially resulting in the long-term disappearance of high skilled accounts. Lowering supply. (This will lose you subscribers)

 

Fixing the economy should wait until Wurm is out of the red-zone. We've only just recently bottomed out of the Wurm Unlimited exodus, it would be a mistake to implement any controversial changes that could start the freefall of accounts again - before we've even had a chance to recover.

 

Great read.

With aspects of wurm that make it great getting slowly added to the gaming market, players need to be rewarded not punished for playing. This is exactly where it's at. There are too many games out there to play these days. Support you players more so they stay here and play. A little of topic I know, but as wurm population does effect the economy a lot.

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No one has actually stated what the issue with the economy is, deflation isnt bad, prices of items dropping isnt actually bad.

 

What changes should there be to the economy? and are there any reasons for the fear beyond those who pay for the game with ingame currency?

 

(having to pay for the game isnt punishing you, you bring little to the table if you don't pay for the game with RL funds)

Edited by SeeD
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want to buy Rare sickle for 3 silver < 3 usa dollars > ..just cod..  i think all items are way to high and i can't afford to pay 5-30 usa dollars for a item...but people can charge what they want to with thier items.....i do not have the answers for the market.. but i think prices must come down if you want items to sell/move..

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4 hours ago, Niki said:

Something needs to happen soon, market is really sliding down badly currently.  Prices are adjusting to the undercutting that is happening because nothing is selling. There have been some excellent points mentioned here but as players we really can't fix the problem so I really hope Rolf and friends are reading this.

 

Thanks.

 

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On 2/23/2016 at 1:21 PM, Amadee said:

 

I personally believe that if there was an easier way to find and shop around at players' merchants, as opposed to mail-order shopping on the forums, more people would be buying things.  I know I would. 

 

 

I used to be at markets like every other day. My neighbor has one and I was at it a couple of times a week until he griefed me and Kosed me on the highways in and around it; now I won't even look in the stalls. I run over to Puzzle Plaza, but I've been going less and less because there aren't as many merchants, and also it's hard to find what I'm looking for. When it used to be full, it would take over a half an hour to open each merchant and check for whatever it was I was hoping to buy. Sometimes I wouldn't find what I came for. It would be VERY helpful if you could tell which merchants had what you wanted somehow. The long search was for the birds.

 

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@SeeD

I'm not the problem here so please don't push blame on me. I will increase my prices back to 7s once that sale is over. However even at 5s, hardly anyone is buying.

 

When I see supreme selling for 10s (enchanted) that's not helping matters.

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My question is simply, premium costs 10s per 30 days, or 6s per 20 for referrals.

 

By those calculations you need to sell one rare for 7s every 20 days, and you'd even have some leftover for upkeep, is that not right?

 

 

I don't understand how merchants are part of any issues with the economy, sales on the forum are still sales. I think this needs to be split into two issues, those who cant make enough money (according to their standards) ingame, and those who wish to see more interaction with other players

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3 hours ago, SeeD said:

No one has actually stated what the issue with the economy is, deflation isnt bad, prices of items dropping isnt actually bad.

 

What changes should there be to the economy? and are there any reasons for the fear beyond those who pay for the game with ingame currency?

 

(having to pay for the game isnt punishing you, you bring little to the table if you don't pay for the game with RL funds)

Services cost the same (premium, deed cost etc), but the amount of hours put into earning that money has increased a lot. Of course many people are happy and rubbing their hands, that the top players can't earn money that easily. But the hardest hit are getting newbies, because when top players are having it hard, newbies have it a LOT harder and when you don't get enough newbies, there is no reason for the so called whales to buy silver from the store. That is how it goes tho, in freemium games some players play for free, while others pay for their game time. This has been used in many games, which have been struggling using buy to play model, but made it as a success when they changed to freemium. Yet Rolf and Code Club is trying the opposite.. the freemium model, which has worked fine so far, they are trying to change quietly to buy to play only.

 

The thing is, when you "force" free players to spend any real money, it doesn't mean they go happily to the store, many of them simply go to another free game. How it goes, you can see from the premium players charts(yes, it is not only reason why the player numbers are down, but it is one reason).

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But as far as I see it, getting 6s every 20 days isnt hard, it's getting huge amounts of silver that's hard.

 

 

New players shouldn't be told they can pay for their first months prem with silver fullstop, it gives the wrong impression. 

13 minutes ago, rixk said:

. Yet Rolf and Code Club is trying the opposite.. the freemium model, which has worked fine so far, they are trying to change quietly to buy to play only.

Where on earth do you get that idea? players flood the market, not rolf or CCAB

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7 minutes ago, SeeD said:

But as far as I see it, getting 6s every 20 days isnt hard, it's getting huge amounts of silver that's hard.

 

 

New players shouldn't be told they can pay for their first months prem with silver fullstop, it gives the wrong impression. 

Where on earth do you get that idea? players flood the market, not rolf or CCAB

Of course players are flooding, but the changes, which have created this flood, were done by Rolf and Code Club.

And getting huge amounts of silver is hard, heh.. I told you, when big time players have hard, the regular Joe has it even harder as those big time players are doing essentially the same thing than regular player(there are of course some differences), they simply put in more time and effort into it. Never start balancing anything based on extremes, shouldn't tweak the economy based on how much top players make AND based on how much lower end players make.

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1 minute ago, rixk said:

Of course players are flooding, but the changes, which have created this flood, were done by Rolf and Code Club.

what changes have done this? what balances were based on extremes? no one should be out to make huge amounts of money, all you need is 6s every 20 days, or 10 every 30

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22 minutes ago, SeeD said:

what changes have done this? what balances were based on extremes? no one should be out to make huge amounts of money, all you need is 6s every 20 days, or 10 every 30

 

The issue of ingame economy is about activity, it is not about RMT and making lots of money. Dunno why people keep focusing on that. Games like WoW and GW also have an economy, and that economy can develop with inflation (WoW) or deflation (GW).

In Wurm we have had massive deflation since the price of silver went up. This means that expensive items go for cheap, while mid-items are given away for free. People that make mid-items therefore can not buy things like dirt with silver from new players, and the economy is dead.

 

The factors that have brought this on us are intrinsic and have already been mentioned in this thread. Mainly:

- items are never destroyed

- accounts can be sold meaning that there are more and more and more master crafters

- the mailing system is global meaning a few crafters can serve everyone in Wurm meaning mid-crafters do not get to be part of the economy

 

What would revive the economy are measures that will never happen. Any of the following would help:

- phase out selling of accounts

- stop the global mail service

- create local auction houses or similar, opening up markets for local crafters

- make silver cheaper to buy in the shop, adding more silver to circulation

 

EVE Online does have selling of accounts, but EVE also has destruction of items, as well as local auction houses, so the EVE economy is in terrific shape.

As you can maybe see (though I doubt it), those that do make a living out of Wurm would very much oppose these measures, because they do not want the wealth spread out. 

 

Edited by Cista
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  • Cheaper silver in the shop leads to the player market dropping in price and players complaining, they're already up in arms about how 1s now = .9e vs 1e. Adding silver to circulation does little to stem this, it's a false idea that more silver ingame = more value
  • The removal of selling accounts would be good on paper, but we all know that while it benefits the game, players wont accept it.  
  • Global mail service does NOTHING to the economy. A sale is a sale, doesn't matter where the item comes from.
  • Local crafting means nothing, that's not an economical issue, that's a player attitude issue. People would just complain about having to travel further for their high quality items, not compromise with low/mid quality.
  • We already have priests complaining about a 1/100 chance of a failure shattering an item, how would we introduce removal of items on a wider scale?

 

 

The price of subscription went up almost 4 years ago, can we move on from blaming that?

 

 

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15 minutes ago, SeeD said:

what changes have done this? what balances were based on extremes? no one should be out to make huge amounts of money, all you need is 6s every 20 days, or 10 every 30

And in real life all you need for survival is to eat and sleep.. Are those all your expenses? Same is in Wurm.. there is plenty of stuff where to spend money.. vital for survival? No, but that doesn't mean it is not there.

And what changes? First thing ... making everyone a "supplier" is where it all begins. Everyone wants to sell stuff and noone wants to buy. Rolf has given in to those "demands", creating/producing stuff is easier and easier. Leading us to the point, where it is mostly easier to make stuff yourself instead of buying the service from others.

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1 minute ago, rixk said:

And in real life all you need for survival is to eat and sleep.. Are those all your expenses? Same is in Wurm.. there is plenty of stuff where to spend money.. vital for survival? No, but that doesn't mean it is not there.

And what changes? First thing ... making everyone a "supplier" is where it all begins. Everyone wants to sell stuff and noone wants to buy. Rolf has given in to those "demands", creating/producing stuff is easier and easier. Leading us to the point, where it is mostly easier to make stuff yourself instead of buying the service from others.

Do you mean the ability for players to make their own items? or the crafting window?

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here come the question of the business model again. Are we fine in paying our premium every month and having some kind of subvention for our deeds... or do we have to pay, pay and pay again while struggling with a decaying market (if not an already dead and over beaten horse).

 

Yes the amount of items is way too important for the actual community, which raise a lot of question once again on the business model, the lack of advertisement, the players leaving and the money / loot / unique items distribution.

 

As much as the players can try to save the economy, nothing can be done without some meaningful change from the devs themselves.

Edited by Odynn
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But what meaningful change? What are the exact issues this economy is facing? Everyones saying Rolf made bad decisions but cant point out what, and everyones saying that change needs to come, but cant point out what.

 

"somethings wrong, i dont know what, but fix it!" 

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15 minutes ago, SeeD said:
  • Cheaper silver in the shop leads to the player market dropping in price and players complaining, they're already up in arms about how 1s now = .9e vs 1e. Adding silver to circulation does little to stem this, it's a false idea that more silver ingame = more value
  • The removal of selling accounts would be good on paper, but we all know that while it benefits the game, players wont accept it.  
  • Global mail service does NOTHING to the economy. A sale is a sale, doesn't matter where the item comes from.
  • Local crafting means nothing, that's not an economical issue, that's a player attitude issue. People would just complain about having to travel further for their high quality items, not compromise with low/mid quality.
  • We already have priests complaining about a 1/100 chance of a failure shattering an item, how would we introduce removal of items on a wider scale?

 

 

The price of subscription went up almost 4 years ago, can we move on from blaming that?

 

 

You are mistaken, more silver in the economy leads to higher prices on items. When nobody has any silver in their account, they tend to buy less things from crafters. This is economics 1.01, so there is no simpler way I can explain it to you.

 

The global mail service means one crafter can serve all buyers. When you are saying "a sale is a sale" you are actually meaning "a buy is a buy". You are looking at it from the point of view of the buyer, because you do not care about how many players are actively involved in the economy.

 

Also, you post way too much, repetitively, without thinking , so I am going to have to block you now. Good day.

Edited by Cista
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2 minutes ago, Cista said:

You are mistaken, more silver in the economy leads to higher prices on items. When nobody has any silver in their account, they tend to buy less things from crafters. This is economics 1.01, so there is no simpler way I can explain it to you.

inflation solves nothing

 

2 minutes ago, Cista said:

The global mail service means one crafter can serve all buyers. When you are saying "a sale is a sale" you are actually meaning "a buy is a buy". You are looking at it from the point of view of the buyer, because you do not care about how many players are actively involved in the economy.

So what would happen if two high end crafters were in the same area? competition is a natural part of any economy

 

3 minutes ago, Cista said:

 

Also, you post way too much without thinking , so I am blocking you now. 

Well thats just rude

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9 minutes ago, SeeD said:

Do you mean the ability for players to make their own items? or the crafting window?

Take your pick. :)

Ability to make their own items. If everyone can make their own items, where is room for trading then? Crafting window on the other hand has definitely had an effect on the bulk item market.

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1 minute ago, rixk said:

Take your pick. :)

Ability to make their own items. If everyone can make their own items, where is room for trading then? Crafting window on the other hand has definitely had an effect on the bulk item market.

So you're saying one of the key points of wurm for the past 10 years, and one of the best QoL improvements for players is a mistake and shouldnt have been done?

 

 

I think I've gotten enough here, I really thought there was meaningful and thought out points, not disappointment that you have to compete, that other players can do things too, and just, yeah.

 

I wish you all good luck, and may you earn your 6s every 20 days with ease

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3 minutes ago, SeeD said:

So you're saying one of the key points of wurm for the past 10 years, and one of the best QoL improvements for players is a mistake and shouldnt have been done?

 

 

I think I've gotten enough here, I really thought there was meaningful and thought out points, not disappointment that you have to compete, that other players can do things too, and just, yeah.

 

I wish you all good luck, and may you earn your 6s every 20 days with ease

All I am saying, that most of the changes that had been made, were made only with short term goals/effects in mind, completely disregarding the longterm effects it might cause.

 

And if it makes you sleep better at night, I have always paid for premium via store for real money. ;) 

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People have left the game, hence less premiums. But not only that. People have reduced the premiums they would run and that makes a big chuck when you add up a couple more alts per player premming. Loyality program halted and crappy xmas has reduced the amount of character I prem up. I still have 2 running,  eg xmas I have done 5 the year before last. These prems all add up. 

With F2p and business models changing, companies have added ways to make paying a premium price more inviting, Rolf needs to moves with these times. He doesn't need to reduce premium cost, he just needs to add more than 1 sleep powder a month lol. Add something that can over time add up...drake leather scraps? scales? seryl, some type of decent potion, anything that people might think wow....this ###### will add up over time, I might premium another toon. 

 

This is nothing outragious, it's a done thing.

Getting new players is a whole new ball game, but get the player here to bring up the numbers within themselves is a task isn't that hard.

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