Sign in to follow this  
Etherdrifter

Thoughts On The Wurm Economy

Recommended Posts

On 2/9/2016 at 3:42 PM, Ayes said:

 Again, this is all *protectionism of a market currently held by highly skilled players trying to either dream up ways of making more coins or preventing others from leveling up as completion to themselves.

 

Actually you got it a bit backwards.  The small group of players that are currently raking in all the coins do not want to see any changes.  The original post was about the absence of markets for mid level goods.  MOST of the suggestions are ways in which some of the elite crafters income would naturally flow towards lesser skilled crafters; for a more inclusive marketplace and thus higher player retention.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/10/2016 at 6:04 PM, Vetarnic said:

1) Introduce some form of in-game currency distinct from cash-shop currency (which could continue being used for deeds and such), with perhaps a method to convert in-game currency to cash-shop currency. I'm thinking of an exchange bank à la Puzzle Pirates.

2) If #1 is impossible, barter should be encouraged. I suspect it would be a lot more satisfying than the current system where everyone wants coins nobody wants to spend. But most important of all...

3) End private coin-for-cash transactions between players, likewise the selling of accounts and any other item in Wurm for real money. These exchanges were, I thought, unethical to begin with, and since they translate into a loss of income for Code Club while offering nothing of benefit to the game, they don't even have a financial reason to exist.

 

1.  If the in-game currency could not be used for paying upkeep or premium, there would be no demand for it.  Two things drive the demand for a currency - redeem-ability and taxes.  It sounds like your in-game currency would have neither.  Perhaps players could create a special coin by reducing their paid for premium time by one week, and a player could redeem this coin for a weeks worth of premium time.  It isn't really what you are getting at, but is the only other second currency I could think of that would actually have a demand.

2.  Barter brings about too many barriers to exchange, and in fact was never really a go to method of exchange in human history (suggested reading: Debt, the First 5000 Years). 

3. I don't even know how Code Club could enforce this without spending more money that it is worth.

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Another issue Wurm has with the economy is communicating value (this is a UI thing). I'm going from point A to point B and pass your market stall and spend a minute browsing, I'm using a QL10 tool, you're offering a QL60 tool. As a player, how do I know what that QL60 tool is worth to me? All I know is it's QL, nothing about how it will make my efforts faster, or easier or more successful. This makes it harder to convince me it's worth however many coins you are selling it for, and makes me more likely to just hold on to my money for something I know I need (like deed upkeep). By the time a player is experienced enough to know what it's worth from experience, there's a good chance they can make it themselves.

 

 

Someone mentioned resources and skill.

One way to "level the playing field" would be to make it so the QL distribution of harvested resources either flat (always QL1) or random, not connected to skill. Skill would have the obvious benefit of performing the action faster.

Then to counterbalance this, add a new Alchemy sub-skill "Refinement" that has the effect of taking a raw material (logs, ore, rock shards, dirt, etc. NOT anything that's been processed) that improves the QL but also reduces the total amount of materials. (Random numbers) For example, if you took a QL1 24kg log, and refined it into a QL12 20kg log, with higher QL getting more difficult. This gives new players an immediate entry into the market as there will always be demand for what they produce at any skill level, and for more skilled players the self-sufficiency vs time balance shifts a bit away from complete self sufficiency.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Darmalus said:

Someone mentioned resources and skill.

One way to "level the playing field" would be to make it so the QL distribution of harvested resources either flat (always QL1) or random, not connected to skill. Skill would have the obvious benefit of performing the action faster.

Then to counterbalance this, add a new Alchemy sub-skill "Refinement" that has the effect of taking a raw material (logs, ore, rock shards, dirt, etc. NOT anything that's been processed) that improves the QL but also reduces the total amount of materials. (Random numbers) For example, if you took a QL1 24kg log, and refined it into a QL12 20kg log, with higher QL getting more difficult. This gives new players an immediate entry into the market as there will always be demand for what they produce at any skill level, and for more skilled players the self-sufficiency vs time balance shifts a bit away from complete self sufficiency.

 

 

Dunno about wurm but I am stealing this for my own uses.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's quite simple actually, we just need more players. Demand and supply are the only things that dictate prices. Bigger number of player could even overcome the obvious problems with skilled crafters that should have gone to fade with their original owners which could also be fixed with banning accounts sale because then we could afford loss of unhappy lazy people who miss the point of selfachivment.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, kochinac said:

It's quite simple actually, we just need more players. 

 

Then go forth and advertise.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/20/2016 at 10:21 AM, kochinac said:

 

also be fixed with banning accounts sale because then we could afford loss of unhappy lazy people who miss the point of selfachivment.

 

 

Why do people assume that how they play is how everyone else wants to play? I don't play Wurm to have self-achievement. I play Wurm to have amusement. I'm not amused by grinding and watching long timers and having failed actions and spending hours on end "traveling" from server to server, etc. I'm sorry you think I'm "lazy" because I bought accounts that allow me to do what I feel like doing faster than I would have done so otherwise. My main is a priest. I need work done. I've tried to buy it in the past and it wasted a lot of time and money and at least once almost brought me to tears because the person I hired wanted to do what HE wanted, when and how HE wanted to do it, using my money to do so. No thanks, I need to accomplish X and the fastest way to do it was to buy a worker alt. Am I lazy because I did that? I don't see it that way. I don't enjoy "grinding." But most of the time I spend in the game feels like work anyway because I'm rushing around maintaining things, fixing things, taking a long time to get from one deed to another because I need several deeds because of animal ratio. Sometimes I don't even feel like talking because I need two hands to hurry around and do all the chores. But even IF I was "being lazy," that's my prerogative. People who don't grind and grind don't end up paying less for their stake in the game.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

LorraineJ's area is a beautiful place imo and a lot of work must have been done to achieve that.

I can only agree that different playstyles allways need to be taken into account when it comes to something abstract as a perceived economy (or the lack thereof).

 

If anything is forced onto those that don't want to play the style of the sales-minded types they may/will suffer and just leave.

 

Hush Sarariman, go make some coins if that is all you care for, but not on our backs!

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's not really that there are too many "high end" characters with high skills. It is that there are too many for the number of lower level characters.

 

If there are 200 players and 2 can make/imp high end gear, they become people that can provide a good service and make a bit of money.  Now, take the same 200 total players and say that 20 can provide that service. Instead of 1 person having the business of 100 people, they have the business of 10. They would have to fight to get more than that.

 

I don't know if banning character sale would fix this or make it worse because of people leaving, but something needs to be done so that there are more unskilled players (consumers) instead of everyone getting to the point where they are fully self sufficient because they either bought or leveled their multitude of characters up high enough to do everything they want. Wurm has an unbalanced economy that is getting more and more top-heavy every day. I think that much is pretty easy to agree with. How to fix it is harder... if it is actually possible to fix. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is no fix to be honest after 10+ years of people being able to do all skill's logic dictates at some point everyone would be able to make there own stuff never having to buy from anyone. This was the first mistake in the game creation based on Wogic.

The only band aid and I mean band aid would be to implement a few crafter classes and have the player choice one. This system is used in  every triple A game but still logic dictates at some point down the road there would be the same issue do to alt's made people would just make a alt for every trade skill class and the same issue will form after a bit of time. Adding the selling of account's don't help the matter but speed it up but the selling of account's is not the reason it is this way.

 

Another flaw is the production of to many map's spreading player's to thin. On top of this the lack of a map that is accurate on available land and added the fact people didn't know where to look and not wanting to spend there first several hours running around or days looking for a spot. This is not fun and makes the game look un attractive.

 

Again not every one want's to participate in RWMT and this is a un attractive feature. The lack of a barter system or fictional earned coin help's make things even worse. 

The fact to enjoy the full game you must be premium/have land = monthly sub + land purchase + monthly land upkeep making the starter investment higher than any mmo to this date and higher  monthly subscription cost do to the fact after the investment you have sub/deed cost upkeep = more than the average triple A mmo. "You don't need that much land argument" PVE is a build game sorta speaking so a 11x11 deed is in no way enough for a person to build a few houses, collosus, a farm, animal pin, etc.... 75% of this would have to be built off the deed there  for there is a need for more land in the deed to place all of this. Your play style is not everyone's play style so please stop telling people how to play the game.

 

And the feather that breaks the camels back is WU 30.00 investment one time fee and no more charges from there on out. No monthly Sub, land investment, monthly deed upkeep.

 

The real kicker is the only thing WO can say to encourage players to play WO rather than WU is stable server's and social between player's and this is so full of it. There is the same social on private WU server as there is on WO server's and Some of us plan on running WU server's for years like Foreverland's Will be running for 10+ years from now and it is a WO shadow with no mod's and being based on a fictional coin and barter system with event's being cooked up from a 7 year retired GM. Something WO lack's which makes it even more fun for the player's. "Yes I advertised my Server so what" 'this was for those who would have a hair up there but for the quote'

 

A fictional system will always last longer than a RWMT system cause people are tighter on there wallet's than giving away some thing that didn't cost them a dime.

 

Closing statement: Good luck fixing a system that can't be fixed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Should build a wall to keep those dirty pvpers from coming over and stealing Freedomer jobs!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Klaa said:

Should build a wall to keep those dirty pvpers from coming over and stealing Freedomer jobs!

 

Dey durk eor jeeeeerbs!

 

DERK AUR JEERBS!


DERK A JERBs!

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/25/2016 at 2:40 PM, Etherdrifter said:

The trouble is it is quite broken now even if you are willing to push a skill up to 70 or 80 you're not really going to be able to compete unless you buy a priest (yes buy, very few people grind their own up when they are so cheap).  The prices in the market are set to continue to drop unless there is a serious player influx (unlikely) as more high level items will enter the market and those items tend to persist for years.  Only the bulk market has remained unchanged, though it does grow and shrink based on the number of players looking to make "walled worlds" (deeds that wall of a part of wurm and live in self sufficient paradise forever (till they get bored and quit)).

 

What are people's thoughts on this?  Do you agree with me and think something needs fixing to create a notable demand for middle game items or do you feel that things are working as intended?  Are there any ideas on how to change this rather lamentable state of affairs? 

 

(my habitual, morning, wool-gathering)

 

Personally, I see nothing wrong with someone living in a "self sufficient paradise forever" if that's how they enjoy playing.  As I've said before, I would be totally against anything that would force anyone to play according to the way someone else enjoys playing.  Some are fine with the economy as it is, others are not. 

 

The question of whether it's a problem that needs fixing all depends on who you ask.

 

As for suggestions, I really do feel that any *fix* should be something that is totally and completely optional and doesn't force anyone into any particular way of playing. 

 

I personally believe that if there was an easier way to find and shop around at players' merchants, as opposed to mail-order shopping on the forums, more people would be buying things.  I know I would. 

 

In fact that was one of my favorite pastimes in UO back in the day.  I would buy things I didn't necessarily need and/or thought I might need in the future or just because it struck my fancy at the moment.  I would buy things that I could use to make other things myself if I saw something that I perceived as being a good price.  Some ended up back on my own merchant once I figured out I didn't really need it after all.  lol. 

 

It's all well and good to have the marketplace on the forums.  It works, but in a rather dry, static, and (for me) un-fun way with people commenting on (or trying to control) prices, etc. In my opinion, it's worse than the global auction houses some games have.  It's functional and utilitarian, imo, and does nothing to make me feel like shopping so I find myself only buying when I really, really need something rather than *shopping*.  Not to mention, the whole world (yeah I know, not really the whole world. lol), can see your shopping habits which is distasteful to some folks.

 

I guess some folks like mail-order shopping. I'm not saying that should be done away with.  I like it in RL, like amazon.com but not in my *fantasy* game.  Merchant ads are fine, where they're advertising their goods and/or merchants location, and/or offering delivery, etc.

 

tl/dr

I know there are some who are against (some quite violently against, hehe), anything that even vaguely resembles UO's recall and/or portal systems but I still believe that strategically placed portals at the starter deeds so we could easily *go out shopping* to more than one marketplace would go a long way towards stimulating the economy.  In addition to that, a few strategically placed portals in out-of-the-way places (especially on Xan) would allow for those folks to have merchants within less than an hour of their deeds, which is currently a huge deterrent. 

 

I know I can't be the only one who would take advantage of that and spend more silvers in the game.

Edited by Amadee
  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nice post Amadee, filled with good points made, many of which I agree. Certainly a Portal System at every starter Village on every PvE server all interconnected would add much to the social aspects of the game, allowing players to easily congregate for various activities. Then just like in UO players should be able to place and operate at least one Merchant at these starter Villages.

 

This would then equalize the sales of items in that every player would have the opportunity to have a Merchant at the location (or several) of their choice. These places in UO that centered around the Banks there acted also as gathering points for sales of other items. I remember sitting there at times with my Tamer ready to recall out to some spot to tame a certain animal requested by others, so similar situations could occur in Wurm as well with this type of Portal System.

 

The poor and excessively long travel options within Wurm do much to discourage social interactions and are the cause of much of the complaints within WO of not enough contact with other players. Not too hard to figure out, although to the Dev's it seems to be an elusive concept to grasp firmly and make some dramatic needed changes to.

 

=Ayes=

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Travel and trade networks are good points.

Travel: Give every (premium?) character a once per Wurm-month (3.5 real days) teleport back to their home deed that also includes their mount or cart or wagon. Part of the issue with Wurm travel is that the return trip, which doubles effective travel time. This limits people's willingness to explore.

Markets: What if we had an ability to link the inventory of multiple personal merchants to a distant market? Either with traders or a new NPC. The NPC lists all the inventory of every personal merchant it is attached too, and you can buy it right there and the money goes to the appropriate personal merchant. This NPC can have their markup set as a % of the asking price, so if I sell a Thingy for 2s and there's a 10% markup, it's listed as 2.2s and when sold I get 2s and the market NPC owner gets 20c. Markets can be centralized, inventory can be better monitored (keep you personal merchant somewhere handy on your deed instead of far away), easier to participate in the markets. Win-win.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On a personal note, not a big fan of insta-travel or global trading, especially in a pseudo-medieval fantasy game. Shouldn't even be in imho.

 

Now if it required some kind of massive construction and maintenance mundane or magical... maybe.

 

For example at first glance the spirit mail system. It does require work from players to establish, so contact points aren't everywhere. In addition there's size limits and a mailing fee, those poor spirits don't work for free.

 

Edited by Klaa

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would not object to some sort of trade-route construction. I wouldn't want large structures everywhere, but maybe something invisible/selectively visible?

Idea: Let's say we have a special pair of goggles. Let's call them Cartographers Magic Goggles (CMG), maybe you can get them from Traders. While wearing them you can see and build your own "Trade route tracks". You build each tile of trade route track, starting at your Personal Merchant and ending at the Market NPC. If the tracks are all connected then goods flow freely, if something happens and a track or two are severed, then you get a message from your Personal merchant and have to go hunting for the break and either repair it or route around it.. Things that could break it might be excessive slope from landscaping, fences, walls, buildings or animal dens on the tile.

 

The fantasy of this is that the Merchant knows the track is safe, so merrily follows it to move goods and money, but they are cowards so the slightest problem and they stay home.

Edited by Darmalus

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

we will have transmutation liquid involving a few skills in the game soon. Why not have teleport portals involving a bunch of skill like metallurgy, masonry, jewelry to create and a bit of magic (courier ?) to link servers and/or main markets.

 

Hard to create, need to be maintained at some QL and maybe with some crafted token needed per use.

 

Medieval fantasy is one thing, boring and long travel is another. We can have both if they are properly designed and implemented in the game.

 

Anyway, from what I've seen the economy is still going downhill with the first "make money, sell me your wares hyper cheap" offers in the trade chat. Many solutions mentioned before, no point in listing them again.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What is the purpose of the economy in WO?

 

I do ask honestly, are those concerned with the economy looking to fund their own premium accounts and deeds with silver made? Or is there another purpose?

 

Why do you seek to make money ingame?

Edited by SeeD
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, SeeD said:

What is the purpose of the economy in WO?

 

I do ask honestly, are those concerned with the economy looking to fund their own premium accounts and deeds with silver made? Or is there another purpose?

 

Why do you seek to make money ingame?

 

interaction noun [C or U]

uk   /ˌɪn.təˈræk.ʃən/  us   /ˌɪn.t̬ɚˈræk.ʃən/
 

An occasion when two or more people or things communicate with or react to each other:

There's not enough interaction between the management and the workers.

Language games are usually intended to encourage student interaction.

The play follows the interactions of three very different characters.

 

I know, an absurd concept in a MMO. Sorry for wanting more of it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Eltaran said:

 

interaction noun [C or U]

uk   /ˌɪn.təˈræk.ʃən/  us   /ˌɪn.t̬ɚˈræk.ʃən/
 

An occasion when two or more people or things communicate with or react to each other:

There's not enough interaction between the management and the workers.

Language games are usually intended to encourage student interaction.

The play follows the interactions of three very different characters.

 

I know, an absurd concept in a MMO. Sorry for wanting more of it.

Your sarcasm aside, this doesnt answer the question

 

economy is but one aspect of interaction in an mmo, and there's plenty of non economical ways.

 

Just seems like a bunch of people unhappy they cant pay for their game with ingame work as much, or have less silver to sell

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Personally I wish you couldn't pay the sub with in-game money. I'd still want an economy. For the simple reason that I enjoy making and selling stuff that other people need, possibly also buying components I need to make said things from other people. It adds purpose to the things I do in a game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Eltaran said:

Personally I wish you couldn't pay the sub with in-game money. I'd still want an economy. For the simple reason that I enjoy making and selling stuff that other people need, possibly also buying components I need to make said things from other people. It adds purpose to the things I do in a game.

but how does a lower value for items take away from that? I mean, enjoying the economy aspect and merchant system in any game is fine, but this has plenty, all I see is people upset about deflation

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lower value doesn't bother me, just the fact that there is absolutely no market for low and mid-QL items (which is the original topic). If there was a realistic chance to sell non-enchanted QL 30 or 50 items that would be fine.

 

It also doesn't help new players that you need 10s to install a merchant (what does rectify this high price for such a basic functionality anyways?). Personally I just don't see myself shell out 16€ for a merchant that won't sell stuff anyways.

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Alot of people have merchants that sell stuff pretty much on a daily basis.  But I have found that people that are playing only to make a dime out of the game tend to be the ones that gripe the loudest when they see that dime threatened.  Now can it be done?  sure but if you aren't having fun while making that dime is it really a game you are playing or a job you are doing?  I'd make more at McDonald's for the time spent to make that dime if that is all I'm interested in.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this