Thoughts On The Wurm Economy

[zethreal 582]

9 minutes ago, hankrearden said:

Another possible solution to breathe life back into the mid level economy would be to eliminate the mechanic that lets a high ql craftsman create mid QL items extremely fast.  If it took a master crafter the same time to imp from 0-20 QL as it does for 65-85 QL, then there would be a demand for new players making mid tier goods for cheap.  Money would trickle down from the 1% that make enough to income to sell coins on the forums, engaging a larger player base and helping population growth.

 

To those of you arguing 'omg your FORCING me' - every mechanic in the game is forcing us - the question is 'what is the best way for us to be forced?' with the goal of created a more vibrant game experience.

 

This. When I first started out a few months ago, I joined an alliance. They gave me a "starter" set of tools & equipment that was all at least ql 50 because they could make & imp it to that in no time flat. At that time I was basically told that it was all skill grinding until I was able to make ~50ql + "stuff". Until then, build your house, dig a ton of clay, chop trees, go hunting and "grind" a skill that I enjoyed doing - or at least wanted to do in the future.

 

Something needs to be done to kickstart the low/mid ql economy.  I don't know how. Maybe set it so all "impable" items are created with a low ql?  That way low ql items of all kinds will still be useful. Why waste ql90 hull planks when you'll have to improve your boat later... unless you want it to go together faster.  You'll still need high ql logs to improve it, but you can go to joe schmoe that just joined and buy 1000 low/mid ql planks to use. You don't have to grind. New guy isn't a slave & you all make out better. 

 

This is just a quick thought. I did not put much into it other than to bring a starting point to the table.

[Odynn 2,248]

12 hours ago, zethreal said:

This. When I first started out a few months ago, I joined an alliance.

They gave me a "starter" set of tools & equipment that was all at least ql 50 because they could make & imp it to that in no time flat.

 

At that time I was basically told that it was all skill grinding until I was able to make ~50ql + "stuff". Until then, build your house, dig a ton of clay, chop trees, go hunting and "grind" a skill that I enjoyed doing - or at least wanted to do in the future.

 

[...] but you can go to joe schmoe that just joined and buy 1000 low/mid ql planks to use. You don't have to grind. New guy isn't a slave & you all make out better.

 

A lot of interesting points here. The ability of vets to create in no time new gear up to 70QL (impalongs anyone ?) and the place and goals of new players in our world.

 

I basically had the same experience years ago, grind a skill, make bulks mats, learn the game and avoid being someone else slave. Been there, done that. Enchants used to be highly priced as well, which wasn't the best for new players willing to skill faster.

 

And then once you are able to make that 50/70QL things, what do you have ? no market because there is already lots of others players around able to do the same in less time (and for cheaper).

 

MY solution back then was easy : a penned trader, why do something so awful would the usual whiners says, but as a new player I was able to 1/ invest on wurm, 2/ be somehow self sufficient upkeep wise, 3/ able to sell my own wares while i was skilling up. Which leave you with a rather good sentiment instead of being forced in a way or another to make cash.

 

NPC buying low/mid quality wares are common on others MMo and are a decent item sink / money generation. But we are back to the basics of how the wurm economy works, the real money trade aspect and the overall value of everything. Lots of options but all will lead to one question left to Rolf : how do he want to fund Wurm, and tweak the business model around it to save the economy, the community and the game overall.

[Slickshot 1,195]

Some of the problem is that we all rely on the devs to fix "our" economy.  They had no part in flooding it like we did, but we want an official fix from them.  There could certainly be other options for the community to look at to possibly alter the course under our own abilities, but we won't be doing that anytime soon.  Let me clarify to say that I don't think the community is a bunch of babies, but I do think we rely too much on the devs to fix something that we tarnished.  We have the ability to alter the course, we just won't do it because it's too hard.

[Eltaran 79]

I doubt Wurm will ever see NPCs buying stuff beyond what we already have in game (1 iron + some iron for QL) for the simple reason that it would inject silver into the game that would otherwise be bought in the shop for real money => less bucks for Rolf.

 

[Pashka 707]

when they have cash (not often) Traders do buy for coin.  This is only available at start towns in Xanadu.  Other servers have them at start towns plus a few scattered around generally locked up.  But do not think this is a great way to make silver because it isn't.  The best way to make silver now is foraging, killing etc for the rare chance to get coin.  So many folks have said they make bank on that every month.  So good luck and have fun.

[Kaldari 53]

I buy my premium from the shop, and any silver I make ingame goes on deed upkeep or shinies, so the economy (or lack thereof) doesn`t really affect me.

 

However...the problem that I see is that there is very poor circulation of currency.

EVE`s economy system is based upon a constant cycle of creation and destruction. Ignoring the ammo consumption, thousands of ships and modules are destroyed every day, vanishing into the game`s code. This means a demand for replacements, which means a demand for minerals for manufacturing, which are mined from asteroids spawned by the game`s code. Everybody gets to play how they choose (although EVE has a reputation for hardcore pvp, getting your ship blown up is actually voluntary, because you chose to do something which put it at risk in the first place), and resources are constantly changing form and circulating.

 

Wurm doesn`t have this as there is no real outlet for items (there is selling to the token, but that`s not very good and heavily imbalanced in favour of farmers. I regularly sell crops to the token, right now that`s fifty six 80ql items every hour. I doubt many crafters can match that for the same minimal effort.) Anything created is practically immortal as long as it`s repaired, and demand only spikes when new items are released and people start remodelling deeds.

There are various ways to increase the removal of items, such as increasing decay, shattering or a chance to break during use, but forcing these upon players would have a negative effect. (I`m inclined to leave shattering as a counter to the number of rares. I alone have produced four rare and one supreme longbow in the last six or seven months, without really grinding the skill. Rare they are not. But that`s another topic.)

 

What I would suggest are several changes, which when combined should, in theory at least, allow for a better experience for everyone overall.

 

First, allow traders to buy unlimited amounts of nearly all finished goods, but with a diminishing return so that they pay less for each successive item of the same type. If we imagine that there are npc populations beyond the horizon with a demand for things that people would want, such as food/wine(and beer damnit)/furniture/clothes/jewellery/building materials for houses and fortifications, and so on, and that the King has a war on, so he wants weapons/armour/healing covers/etc then that gives a way to remove items.

Traders could buy anything that can be loaded into a wagon (furniture or crates of bricks/mortar/planks), but only sell something that can be carried in the inventory. Ships could be sold to a coastal trader by the owner if it`s anchored within...say five tiles. (New ship type - barque or brig for the King`s navy)

 

Secondly, sleep powder can only be bought from traders, and isn`t given as a bonus for buying premium. Other consumables could/should be added. Traders could also, randomly and rarely, stock exotic items like the moon metals/dragon scales/something else. Never in large amounts, and always expensive.

 

Thirdly, the cost of buying premium using ingame currency scales up with skillpoints (and the game somehow knows, so that if you buy two decades of prem for a fresh alt, then it diminishes as the alt skills up) so that a new player can achieve it if they put the effort in, and a skilled player can also achieve it, but their ability to quickly produce high quality goods for sale is countered by increased cost. Someone spending the time to acquire the silver to pay premium is all very well, but it doesn`t pay the server bills.

 

 

These changes should mean that skilled players will convert their goods into coin, sleep powder, and whatever else they want that the trader stocks.

Low skilled players can convert their lower ql goods into coin, trader goods, and buy higher ql goods from players...if they wish to...

Also, if a new player wants to be a tailor, and only a tailor, then they can sell clothes in order to buy food and high ql cotton from players or hire masons to build a stone walled deed...without ever planting a crop or cutting a single brick themselves.

 

The obvious counter argument to this is that people will earn vast amounts of ingame currency and sell it for Euros (assuming they can find a buyer). That really doesn`t matter. Wurm gold has no value outside of Wurm, so whoever buys it can only spend it inside Wurm, thus injecting it back into circulation. And since the seller is likely high skilled, then using those Euros to buy premium from the shop will be more attractive than using the ingame gold to pay for premium.

 

I`ve probably missed something, so I might come back to this.

[polarbear 284]

My thoughts on wurm economy:

 

All "markets" exists, you just have to price accordingly. People think know one will buy a 50ql item but they will, if the 99 sells for 1s, sell your 50ql no more than 50c. There are always a way to make cash. If you have a bunch of lower-mid ql items, offer them to a higher skill toon to imp them and sell them on their own time. Its a win, win scenario. mid ql items get sold, higher ql items sell for what they are actually worth (more), and everyone is happy. Just offer your items for sale or trade a certain amount for something you want, someone will eventually buy them. Be patient.  

 

This of course is just my two cents. 

[Audrel 2,223]

You know, certain "economy" people are jumping into every thread they can these days. Here's the deal. This is a player driven market.

 

From the Wiki

The Markets of Wurm are player made areas that can be populated with traders or personal merchants from various players.

These marketplaces work like bazaars of some games. But rather than having a Developer or GM run it, the players are in charge, to offer all fairness and player manipulation of the system.

 

But a lot of these people want the Devs to step in and manhandle the game in order to drive their markets.

 

Edited February 5, 2016 by Audrel

[FranktheTank 1,901]

I do love how the macros thread has spun off into serious threads about wurms economy and population.

 

I am only worried for wurm online's continued viability in the future, there HAS BEEN a steady population drop over time.

The economy has changed and developed over time as well, I have seen it in these past 7 years.

 

I think any game development change to the economy will only restrict and hinder the system, after playing EVE online recently I have come to the conclusion that changing entire economic systems is wrong, each game has to own a system and Wurms is one that is unique.

 

Any changes to the economy have to come in small doses.

 

I really think what I said way back is true about the wurm economy though.

1. Everything is localized first be server than by location

2. Villages that are completely self sufficient can be harmful to an economy

3. Increased public infrastructure seems to (imo) greatly increase the mobility of trade (as in real life) and increased creation of markets, roads, and waterways will encourage both regional and national (I mean its kinda like each server is a nation) trade.

[NeeNee 855]

I really agree. If players don't want what you are selling, you need to look into what they DO want. Is it bricks and you hate bricks? Why should the devs fix that for you? Wouldn't it be better to find some other niche you can fill?  I can think of a few right now that are horribly underserved and I'm sure you clever people can as well! 

27 minutes ago, Audrel said:

You know, certain "economy" people are jumping into every thread they can these days. Here's the deal. This is a player driven market.

 

From the Wiki

The Markets of Wurm are player made areas that can be populated with traders or personal merchants from various players.

These marketplaces work like bazaars of some games. But rather than having a Developer or GM run it, the players are in charge, to offer all fairness and player manipulation of the system.

 

But a lot of these people want the Devs to step in and manhandle the game in order to drive their markets.

 

 

[quasiwud 81]

the simplest fix (imo) would be to make premium cheaper to buy with in game money than it is to pay cash.. that would remove the in game money surplus and force players to either buy silvers from the shop or work harder to trade for them. even the shop should benefit because lack of silvers  facilitates spending  on them in the shop. my 2 cents

[Audrel 2,223]

3 minutes ago, quasiwud said:

the simplest fix (imo) would be to make premium cheaper to buy with in game money than it is to pay cash.. that would remove the in game money surplus and force players to either buy silvers from the shop or work harder to trade for them. even the shop should benefit because lack of silvers  facilitates spending  on them in the shop. my 2 cents

 

Or in-game premium for silvers could be removed and you must buy premium time from the shop. Player sold silver is already cheaper than shop silver. The difference is shop premium and via silvers is only about $1.75 USD more using silvers. 

[Audrel 2,223]

1 hour ago, FranktheTank said:

I do love how the macros thread has spun off into serious threads about wurms economy and population.

 

Take your pick, Frank. The economy is being tossed into any thread they can wedge it into. 

[FranktheTank 1,901]

2 hours ago, Audrel said:

 

Take your pick, Frank. The economy is being tossed into any thread they can wedge it into. 

True.

 

I do hope people take time to read my post, as it is something players can directly do to encourage trade, transportation, and grow the economy.

[hankrearden 144]

5 hours ago, Audrel said:

You know, certain "economy" people are jumping into every thread they can these days. Here's the deal. This is a player driven market.

 

From the Wiki

The Markets of Wurm are player made areas that can be populated with traders or personal merchants from various players.

These marketplaces work like bazaars of some games. But rather than having a Developer or GM run it, the players are in charge, to offer all fairness and player manipulation of the system.

 

But a lot of these people want the Devs to step in and manhandle the game in order to drive their markets.

 

The thing is, markets do not exist in a vacuum.  The choices made by devs over the last 10 years will have an effect on wurm's current economy.  Most of their decision are made for enhancing short/medium term player experience with little thought to long term economic impact (can't really fault them for that either).  It is not unreasonable to then discuss possible ways that dev action could alter the rules/institutions that shape player driven markets.

 

link on institutional economics for the curious minded:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_institutional_economics

[Audrel 2,223]

The only way you will get a viable market in this game is to limit players to a single branch of a crafting skill set like Fine Carpenter, Bowyer, Shipbuilding, Tailoring as a whole, Armorsmithing (includes all types - chain, plate, shields - like tailoring), and Blacksmithing. You have to pick one and you can go to 99 in that category but you are limited to 50 in everything else. 

 

Then hope the game survives the mass exodus of people when they are capped well below their grind.

[Klaa 4,872]

Dragon armor in every armor rack and a dragon egg in every inventory!

[FranktheTank 1,901]

48 minutes ago, Audrel said:

The only way you will get a viable market in this game is to limit players to a single branch of a crafting skill set like Fine Carpenter, Bowyer, Shipbuilding, Tailoring as a whole, Armorsmithing (includes all types - chain, plate, shields - like tailoring), and Blacksmithing. You have to pick one and you can go to 99 in that category but you are limited to 50 in everything else. 

 

Then hope the game survives the mass exodus of people when they are capped well below their grind.

That goes against the very nature of a sandbox game, even Runescape lets you train everything.

[Audrel 2,223]

2 minutes ago, FranktheTank said:

That goes against the very nature of a sandbox game, even Runescape lets you train everything.

 

Which is a great example of a game in which items never decay and never break yet you can sell them for millions all day long. They don't even have to be crafted. They drop from mobs. They have a robust market on everlasting items. Yet here, everyone is all up in arms. The difference? You can't buy premium time with money in RS. 

[Mordraug 2,542]

58 minutes ago, Audrel said:

 

Which is a great example of a game in which items never decay and never break yet you can sell them for millions all day long. They don't even have to be crafted. They drop from mobs. They have a robust market on everlasting items. Yet here, everyone is all up in arms. The difference? You can't buy premium time with money in RS. 

 

Actually....... 

http://runescape.wikia.com/wiki/Bond

 

And they just added a skill called Invention.... until now you'd grab say, for Smithing, expensive Runite bars, made hundreds of rune swords, and whether you sold or kept them, they'd end up with High Alchemy cast on them to magically (literally) turn them to coins.... with Invention you instead dismantle items (aka destroy) for the skill's materials.

 

Result: stuff's currently drastically higher-priced, but it should balance out in the long run now that way less cash is being created.  Gonna come down to supply and demand.

[FranktheTank 1,901]

That doesn't fit your argument Audrel, if anything is lends more to my argument that being able to train everything is more important because of the reasons you listed.

Limiting skills is a sure fire way to actually kill the game.

[enoofu 206]

15 minutes ago, FranktheTank said:

That doesn't fit your argument Audrel, if anything is lends more to my argument that being able to train everything is more important because of the reasons you listed.

Limiting skills is a sure fire way to actually kill the game.

Pretty much happen with Priest Class, meditation, and the difficulty in getting Sorcery books

[Vares 2]

As other people stated, problem is that supply is much higher than demand, high ql things keep being produced but not consumed, so of course eventually everyone end up with high ql things.

 

Changing pvp and how it works could somehow help it, make it easier to hop in a pvp place, give something to conquer and have the equipment used in pvp quickly decay, this would funnel some work and resources toward that activity, thus raising the demand. Or something like that but with pve, repelling some invasions or something like that, again making people use their equipment

[Arkonick 557]

Real issue is people try to play the wurm economy like Big corp does in RL. See they watch there income charts and as long as it keeps going up there is no issue but min it goes down they panic. They also try to raise good's price higher than people are willing to pay for them. A salesman in wurm I've noticed over 5 years of wurming would set a price and if some idiot was willing to pay a high price cause he was richer than others then the seller would deem that item is worth that price and everyone rich or poor should pay that price. Then they would complain if another would come in and under cut his price saying you are killing the economy when you do that. 

Salesmen don't look at economy and job history like when countries are having finance trouble like resessions when there sales go down. Wait they do but only in RL in wurm tho they don't look at this they go nuts and blame it on every thing around them and they can for with out a doubt show you explain to you with not one shred of evidence. Examples they see WU people left to go there so that must be the cause. Not that a % of those players are in a country that has a resession still going on so for there future wurm exp they had to find a cheaper source like one time fee WU. Or the guy that played WO but hardly ever had neighbors or bad social exp in the online version so that % went to WU. There are more examples I want list.

They don't see that a % of players want pay x amount of dollars for a fictional item in a game. 1 item I'll use as a example it takes a crazy person to spend 300 RW dollars for a set of drake armor yes I know you sold a set. Ok how often do you sell it and how many you sell a month.

 

Item's are just to expensive and also as mentioned before everyone can be a jack of trades and after 10+ years of grinding characters and them staying in the general public cause of the ability to sale a account you have way to many high end crafters and the market is flooded. 

 

What I recommend is Rolf Make a tornado in Wurm a category F5 and have it rip across servers laying waste to homes and there stock piles and any thing it touches it destroys. I believe this would loosen the economy with a over flooded market bringing back demand on good's. But this would only be a temp fix cause in a month or 2 the market be flooded again.

[enoofu 206]

Main problem for oversupply is the change in collection of resources over the years

BSB, FSB, crates, wagons, and ship holds

 

You can basically tear down a small forest in a day, from tree to mob somewhat easily now.

 

Glimmersteel, Dragon hide and Adamantine are basically the only 2 resources most people can't farm well

 

Maybe adding new rare resources on Freedom, Chaos, and Epic would help

Edited February 7, 2016 by enoofu