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Etherdrifter

Thoughts On The Wurm Economy

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I see a lot of posts on the forum about trade, mostly the goods on offer are beyond the skill of most players to create or are bulk goods.  You don't see much "middle" economy, things made and sold by players with 40/50 in a skill, there is no demand for it really, at least not any more.  The markets on release and pristine used to have that middle market (the higher end market was VERY expensive) but it seems to have vanished since the competing titans have pushed prices into the ground.

 

The trouble is it is quite broken now even if you are willing to push a skill up to 70 or 80 you're not really going to be able to compete unless you buy a priest (yes buy, very few people grind their own up when they are so cheap).  The prices in the market are set to continue to drop unless there is a serious player influx (unlikely) as more high level items will enter the market and those items tend to persist for years.  Only the bulk market has remained unchanged, though it does grow and shrink based on the number of players looking to make "walled worlds" (deeds that wall of a part of wurm and live in self sufficient paradise forever (till they get bored and quit)).

 

What are people's thoughts on this?  Do you agree with me and think something needs fixing to create a notable demand for middle game items or do you feel that things are working as intended?  Are there any ideas on how to change this rather lamentable state of affairs?  I've suggested a few over the years but generally get stonewalled out since my methods would negatively impact "walled worlds", could anyone suggest a better path to gently nudging the wurm economy into a more interesting state?

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I think a couple of problems with the economy is that...

 

The population is getting top-heavy with high skilled characters. Account selling is one of the big problems here. Good accounts stay in circulation. Taking away account selling is dubious at best (a lot of it would turn to illegal account selling) and people would be unhappy. Maybe skill decay? But I'd be up in arms against that, so no thank you!

 

Next is how far people can sell goods. Mailing meant that someone across the server or even from 3 servers over can compete over the neighbor 30 tiles away. The reduction in mail costs made this even worse. Is this bad? I dunno. Given how populations have been spread so thinly (first by Xanadu and then again by Wurm Unlimited) this mailing system might be required.

 

Basically with both of these issues in the game I don't see how you could change the game. Not without pissing off the current Wurm population.
 

It's a gamble either way. Keep the way things are and sink a few inches every month or toss things on a gamble and hopefully new players replace the disgruntled old ones? (Unlikely).

 

Wurm has put itself in a tough spot.

 

 

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Sounds like they are getting close to releasing a lot of new items into the markets

 

Saroman

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We're currently in the process of finalizing a big move of all models and many of the textures to new formats which will help speed things up by a lot overall, after this the pauldrons and new clothing are next in line!

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The ingame economy doesn't matter unless you buy silver at the shop for real money. The game is what you make of it and it only needs an economy because you want one

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I agree with Aeris, if your buying your game time at the shop you do not need to worry about the economy.

I have always bought my game time at the shop and have paid for my deeds with what I sell in game.

 

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1 minute ago, Becket said:

I agree with Aeris, if your buying your game time at the shop you do not need to worry about the economy.

I have always bought my game time at the shop and have paid for my deeds with what I sell in game.

 

I pay for my premium with real money at the shop, and my deed is half and half - 50% from shop money, 50% from buying silver from players.

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Not sure if you noticed by sales alone that the economy is slowly recovering from the WU withdrawal of players while player accounts/dragon armor could be better. The price of rares is pretty fair now, supremes are still 30-50 range.

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If only some government entity would ride in wearing a white hat to fix all the "problems" with the economy.

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2 minutes ago, Zerocool said:

Are you saying we should bail out the traders?

 

And anyone who owns traders... not that I stand to benefit from such a policy :ph34r:

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My thoughts: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1vITEC7jweYBMvTI9ABOwD-fddIa9iP4Cc8Sj9Rve_Vs/edit

 

Spoiler

Wurm’s economy is a deflationary nightmare. With an overabundance of high skilled crafting characters that are not being funneled out due to the rule of selling accounts being legal. The flow of new money coming onto the market is severely limited to only the whales who purchase the silver at large rates, or the King’s Coffers. What it doesn’t take into account is the large amount of money being saved, or hoarded, by players who have no intention of reselling it into the market, or purchasing new goods.

 

This has led to a situation where money is greatly overvalued, to the point where the prices of products and services has been steadily falling. Smart, aspiring merchants can take advantage of mass production and volume sales in this market - but this is a woeful situation for almost everybody else.

 

Unfortunately, after much deliberation among a think tank of peers - We have not been able to come up with a solution to stem the tide of deflation without either:

 

  • Constantly injecting new silver into the economy at a very fast rate. For free. (This loses you money)

  • Banning the capability of selling accounts entirely, thus potentially resulting in the long-term disappearance of high skilled accounts. Lowering supply. (This will lose you subscribers)

 

Fixing the economy should wait until Wurm is out of the red-zone. We've only just recently bottomed out of the Wurm Unlimited exodus, it would be a mistake to implement any controversial changes that could start the freefall of accounts again - before we've even had a chance to recover.

Edited by Dairuka
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Why is deflation bad for the average player? You get more stuff for the same amount of silver.

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*lounges on his Wednesday morning Knarr and sips 90ql wine*

 

Oh dear I believe the peasants are revolting.

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As a new player who is just about to be able to create 40-50ish items I tend to agree that the economy is broken. I have two options: grind bulk material for sale (taking ages with low skills mind ya) turning Wurm into a second job or I can buy silver from players or the shop to pay the deed and equipment I can't make myself. And then people still wonder why there is a bad retention of new players.

 

I'd happily join a new server cluster with everyone on new toons any day and it's really one of the few points that make WU look attractive.

 

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3 hours ago, griper said:

Why is deflation bad for the average player? You get more stuff for the same amount of silver.

Because prices of deed costs, prem etc haven't been changed. That means, that that same average player needs to do more work for the same amount of silver. It becomes especially important, when (s)he decides to use "services", which Code Club provides, for earned money.

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13 hours ago, Etherdrifter said:

...

 

What are people's thoughts on this?  Do you agree with me and think something needs fixing to create a notable demand for middle game items or do you feel that things are working as intended?  Are there any ideas on how to change this rather lamentable state of affairs?  I've suggested a few over the years but generally get stonewalled out since my methods would negatively impact "walled worlds", could anyone suggest a better path to gently nudging the wurm economy into a more interesting state?

 

I believe this is due to Wurm's skill and crafting system - nothing can be done by the players to change that, and with the new starter gear crafted middle-ql gear has been made even less useful. 

 

I've said it a couple of times: Wurm's difficulty curve is upside down. It's difficult at the start and gets easier you higher in skill you go - it should be the other way round: reasonably easy at the start and more difficult as you go up. In my opinion this cannot be fixed in the current game, it would need a complete restart.

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For the individual who does not play the game to make coins from it there is no problem here. Well, other than the fact that they support those who do. Adjusting the game "economy" so that they can make even more coins from playing the game only worsens the problem. Buying player created items from others increases the total cost of playing the game. Eventually the breaking point will be hit and bye, bye, the player moves on to some other game less expensive.

 

Same old story, promoted by those who want to make coins from playing the game to use for various purposes without considering the negative impact it has on the game by increasing the cost of playing it for others. Then as the market for these items lessens due to fewer customers/players prices must be reduced further to sell those same items.

 

This is basically a narrow focus of adjusting the "economy" to further benefit and increase the profits of those who create items for this purpose (making in-game coins), which is why I am against these types of think tank proposals. True, a reflection of real life markets attempting to be controlled by those who profit them, which makes them no less onerous upon those from whom they take as much as they can.

 

Unfortunately within Wurm there is no oversight of this process which attempts to keep it in check, other than the random voice that might speak out against it. More easily shrugged off here too since "it's just a game". *shrugs*

 

Happy Trails

=Ayes=

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3 hours ago, rixk said:

Because prices of deed costs, prem etc haven't been changed. That means, that that same average player needs to do more work for the same amount of silver. It becomes especially important, when (s)he decides to use "services", which Code Club provides, for earned money.

 

Except that the average player doesnt play the game to make coins.

He buys it from the shop and can buy more ingame stuff as stuff gets cheaper.

 

 

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As mentioned there's two main hurdles for a new player in the current economy. One is that quality rules, and to craft quality you need to gain skill. Other hurdle is in situations where ql doesn't matter as much, this means materials are moved in bulk.

 

Personally these issues could be resolved by expanding the game's content: new materials, new skills, new crafts, etc. Especially if something is added where ql  and skill levels are not as important even early on.

 

Granted basic supply and demand. If something has an easy entry level, then the suppliers would easily outstrip any demand.

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I havnt wanted to say anything since im a fanboy... But all i see is a dieing economy. There is hardly any middle of the road trades like the OP talks about. There is pretty much nothing on the lower end and the high end stuff is just bought by the smaller population of hard cores. 

 

This game needs to see change if anything is going to pick back up. And that change is all around change pve, pvp, epic. Skills gain speed, imping successes, etc... 

 

Rolf should also take a look at possibly unbanning all accounts and perhaps going back to seeing what the bans were about and setting some penalties. Many other mainstream games have done this and good amount of populations benefitted because of it. 

 

Now some of you might say no they cheated or they got banned for a reason yada yada yada blah blah blah... Truth is nothing stops these players from doing it again and some have without getting caught. And fact is there are still many active accounts in game who have exploited skills which in some cases is worse. There are ways to ban people for periods of time and penalize them but at least retain the possibility of the people playing again. Its pretty stupid with how many bugs and exploits some have taken advantage of yet they are still playing while some others have gotten banned over stupid things like and not just macro users either bans go beyond that.

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I've made my opinion known in pm's about the current Wurm economy.  All I'll say is this:  supply is greater than demand.  There are ways to shift this yes, but those ways aren't always easy so no one wants to put in the effort to do it.  Sad but true.

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THE problem is your perspective on a broken economy.  It's not broken.  People don't want to spend silver.  TRADE with people and you'll find alot more business.  

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1 hour ago, Wargasm said:

THE problem is your perspective on a broken economy.  It's not broken.  People don't want to spend silver.  TRADE with people and you'll find alot more business.  

 

A barter economy is the very definition of a broken economy in a video game. I actually go into definition why in a far older thread. The trader aspect is out of date now, but the consequences of lowering the benefit of the King's Coffers from traders in general are starting to show in lower purchasing power across the board. (The trickle of silver from Foraging and Hunting isn't enough to sustain anything except low priced volume sales.)

 

The economy isn't the end-all, be-all of a video game. Video games can obviously survive a broken economy. However, please stop pretending that Wurm's economy is fine. It's sickly.

 

Edited by Dairuka
What do I know about the economy. It's not like I foresaw this happening, and used that knowledge to control the enchanted goods market. Oh wait...
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Don't believe that traders helped the economy, just was a massive oversight by Rolf which generated game inflation

 

Problem with the economy is that everyone is a craftsmen and can be somewhat self efficient, and the economy will only swing up with new servers and new players 

 

 

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