Sign in to follow this  
Odynn

Shattering, the bane of channeling

Recommended Posts

How many times casters have been asked how secure they were, how many of us told our clients / friends that we have high channeling, SD (sic...), faith bonus or whatever we though would be safe.

 

And here, straight from the code the truth :

        if (power < -target.getQualityLevel() || (power < 0.0 && Server.rand.nextInt(100) == 0)) {
            performer.getCommunicator().sendNormalServerMessage("The " + target.getName() + " emits a strong deep sound of resonance, then shatters!");
            Server.getInstance().broadCastAction("The " + target.getName() + " shatters!", performer, 5);
            Items.destroyItem(target.getWurmId());

 

Nothing is safe, all our thinking and hopes are shattered away by some randomness. Your skill or the item QL doesn't matter, if your number is rolled, your item dies, as simple as that on a failure.

 

What i suggest is simple, just remove that tiny bit of the code : " || (power < 0.0 && Server.rand.nextInt(100) == 0))", working toward safer cast, spending time to improve items, trying to do your best should be rewarded, not punished for no others reasons than "randomness". No others skill in wurm decide out of the blue that your item will dissapear if you fail to polish it, or wash it for example.

 

Some will say shattering is needed for balance, it's a risk VS reward thing. No, no and no. It's a risk when you want to cast on low QL items, agreed, not when the game decide that your 99 QL items have 1% chance of dissapearing at 99 skill. There is no balance when you cast bulks tools / weapons, you can afford to loose something which cost you nothing, but you can't on something you invested time / money / feelings and want that special 90+ cast which will take hundrens if not thousands of tries.

 

We should be able to prevent shattering, and that's where the first part of the code is interesting (or the whole code if you check it on WU) since the QL of the item and how bad your priest is matter. Improve your priests skills, improve your items, repair them when they take damages, let us aim for something higher and better but do not punish us, players and customers, for no reasons.

 

Remove this nonsense and make channeling in line with the others skills like you did in the past, by removing the destroyed items parts on creation failure, or the scale/hide loss recently on armor creation.

 

  • Like 19

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

so if you fail, there's a 1% chance of shattering? How often do you fail at high levels?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It is not 1% chance.. power has to be lower than 0 AND random number has to be 0.. It would be 1%, if there wouldn't be that "power < 0.0" condition.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Btw, this code is responsible for virtually all shattering. It's mostly impossible to shatter a 90ql item with a 90chan priest without this mechanic. When a 90chan priest goes for 90+ casts on 90ql items, this will make him shatter about 2.5% (1 in 40) items (on average)

 

Anyway, +1, shattering is a silly mechanic imo

Edited by asdf

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You do realise that it's possible to roll numbers like 0.16853 odynn so strictly speaking it's not one in a hundred at all and at high skill the chance of rolling a flat zero is rare in the extreme 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No, it's a .nextInt, it only returns integers. It is one in a hundred indeed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think there should be some risk of shattering, the only issue is, if you remove it from random, and make it skillbased, it punishes lower skilled priests.

 

Priests should not be free to cast constantly without risk

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Shattering is the only step in crafting that can utterly destroy something, and comes as the very last step, after untold hours of effort from what can be multiple parties.  Everything else in Wurm rewards dogged determination and effort, while shattering can remove all of that hard work and erase unique items from the world.  That there's a forced 1/100 chance to shatter on every miscast adds insult to injury.

 

Remove this garbage altogether, or add a means (such as through a combination of channeling+QL) to truly shatterproof items.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, Archaed said:

so if you fail, there's a 1% chance of shattering? How often do you fail at high levels?

 

Some more numbers: (using a 60 difficulty spell, combined chances to shatter over the many casts required to get the X power, assuming 90ql items)
 

  80 chan 90 chan 95 chan 99 chan
chance to fail 11.5% 6.5% 4.5% 3.5%
70+ power 1% 0.2% 0.2% 0.1%
80+ power 2.7% 0.8% 0.4% 0.3%
90+ power 8.5% 2.8% 1.3% 0.8%

 

Edited by asdf
  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Long as the randomness isn't particularly high it seems fine personally. Then again, I'm accustomed to and don't believe in being completely "safe", and I enjoy games that have some degree of pseudo-randomness built in.

 

Good to see Channeling has an impact, and figured the SD claims were off.

 

Personally shattering should be expanded into other areas... such as animals exploding or mutating on failed Genesis casts. With a cooldown or some limitation to avoid too much usage in pvp.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

LoL shattering animals with Genesis I can see the Rage of animal breeders now

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, Noizhead said:

Shattering is the only step in crafting that can utterly destroy something, and comes as the very last step, after untold hours of effort from what can be multiple parties.  Everything else in Wurm rewards dogged determination and effort, while shattering can remove all of that hard work and erase unique items from the world.  That there's a forced 1/100 chance to shatter on every miscast adds insult to injury.

It;s also a mechanic that can double skillgain, halve timers, add damage, allow players to heal wounds.. the list goes on. It's hard to argue that spellcasting is the only only mechanic to suffer shatters when it offers these unique improvements

 

21 minutes ago, asdf said:

 

Some more numbers: (using a 60 difficulty spell, combined chances to shatter over many the casts required to get the X power, assuming 90ql items)
 

  80 chan 90 chan 95 chan 99 chan
chance to fail 11.5% 6.5% 4.5% 3.5%
70+ power 1% 0.2% 0.2% 0.1%
80+ power 2.7% 0.8% 0.4% 0.3%
90+ power 8.5% 2.8% 1.3% 0.8%

 

so at worst, an 80 channelling priest has a 0.115% chance of shattering per cast with this inbuilt failure mechanic? (11% failure, 1% of that)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Correct, and as you can see, over many casts, the probability is non-negligible

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

+1

 

Tell me who to bribe, tell me who to blackmail, tell me who to kill, this is the best idea i've ever seen posted. This will happen!

Edited by Rocklobstar

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

failure at high level is awfully frequent. the bell curve make high power cast hard to reach, while the chance of a cast lower than 0 is really frequent.

 

With 95 skill, you will land casts anywhere between -40 and 100+ (on a 60 difficulty spell, LT/ MS are harder since they are linked casts).

 

Which means that high skilled priest will suffer from that mechanism as Asdf explained :

 

1 hour ago, asdf said:

Btw, this code is responsible for virtually all shattering. It's mostly impossible to shatter a 90ql item with a 90chan priest without this mechanic

 

 

1 hour ago, Archaed said:

I think there should be some risk of shattering, the only issue is, if you remove it from random, and make it skillbased, it punishes lower skilled priests.

 

The code already punish low skilled priest, but as noizhead said, it's insulting when it's also punishing you after a long grind toward safers casts.

 

Right now, you are a low channeling priest, you will shatter things, it's the game, push you to become better (and not try rares at your level). You are a high channeling priest, you want to make skillers, you know you will land a -40, heck, it's planned, you know the risks, it may go poof.

 

The actual mechanism just punish efforts, when you know 90+ casts at 95+ skill are around 3/4% and you have around 5/8% of your casts able to get bellow that dreaded [0] power, the risk become really real.

 

1 hour ago, Archaed said:

Priests should not be free to cast constantly without risk

 

On anything that isn't bulk cast, the amount of favor / time spent is already a risk. Channeling (and most of the creation skills) are highly impacted by the randomness. It's like playing with slot machines, hoping for a good cast and knowing it can just shoot you. Suddenly not fun anymore unless you are in russian roulette slot machines (guns).

 

The code without that nonsense is already quite interesting on a matter of risks / rewards, you fail your casts, your item take some damages, lowering the effective QL (or real one once repaired), if you keep casting on a damaged / lower QL item, then the shattering may happen naturally. If you are focused and diligent enough to do a repair / reimp job you will invest more time but not loose all the previous investment in that item. A few tweak on the amount of damage can do all the difference between 0 risk and more involvment, risk doesn't meaning blindly and stupidly punishing.

 

Overall, will that be a game changer for the actual market, not really, bulk casts are the bigger part of it, but for players involved in the game with special items for them, then yes, that's everything. When history and legacy are valued as much as we do here, a roll of dice shouldn't erase it forever.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, Odynn said:

failure at high level is awfully frequent. the bell curve make high power cast hard to reach, while the chance of a cast lower than 0 is really frequent.

 

With 95 skill, you will land casts anywhere between -40 and 100+ (on a 60 difficulty spell, LT/ MS are harder since they are linked casts).

 

Which means that high skilled priest will suffer from that mechanism as Asdf explained :

 

 

 

 

The code already punish low skilled priest, but as noizhead said, it's insulting when it's also punishing you after a long grind toward safers casts.

 

Right now, you are a low channeling priest, you will shatter things, it's the game, push you to become better (and not try rares at your level). You are a high channeling priest, you want to make skillers, you know you will land a -40, heck, it's planned, you know the risks, it may go poof.

 

The actual mechanism just punish efforts, when you know 90+ casts at 95+ skill are around 3/4% and you have around 5/8% of your casts able to get bellow that dreaded [0] power, the risk become really real.

 

 

On anything that isn't bulk cast, the amount of favor / time spent is already a risk. Channeling (and most of the creation skills) are highly impacted by the randomness. It's like playing with slot machines, hoping for a good cast and knowing it can just shoot you. Suddenly not fun anymore unless you are in russian roulette slot machines (guns).

 

The code without that nonsense is already quite interesting on a matter of risks / rewards, you fail your casts, your item take some damages, lowering the effective QL (or real one once repaired), if you keep casting on a damaged / lower QL item, then the shattering may happen naturally. If you are focused and diligent enough to do a repair / reimp job you will invest more time but not loose all the previous investment in that item. A few tweak on the amount of damage can do all the difference between 0 risk and more involvment, risk doesn't meaning blindly and stupidly punishing.

 

Overall, will that be a game changer for the actual market, not really, bulk casts are the bigger part of it, but for players involved in the game with special items for them, then yes, that's everything. When history and legacy are valued as much as we do here, a roll of dice shouldn't erase it forever.

 

+100 Odynn you said it perfectly!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So the issue with priests should be just throwing favour at an item without worrying about shatter?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, Archaed said:

So the issue with priests should be just throwing favour at an item without worrying about shatter?

 

Getting on my priest account is a chore!  One I do not look forward too.....  its a painful experience to burn through 2-3 Hours of time and 500-2000 Corn to get a handfull of decent casts and a half dozen items!

Shattering really isn't needed in the equation.... its painful enough without it!

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, Archaed said:

So the issue with priests should be just throwing favour at an item without worrying about shatter?

 

Casting, repairing, improving, keep casting, hoping you won't get that awfull random roll that will land a negative cast power over the QL of your item. Worrying about shattering will still be there as i said above. Being punished for no reasons won't.

 

 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

+1 Being a priest is tough enough, nerf'd enough too !  Please remove the shattering risk, or at least reduce it drastically for higher skilled priests.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm kinda on the fence on this one.  I feel that there should be some chance of a shatter, but that it should probably be a lot lower.  Mind you, I might feel different if I'd just blown up a supreme pick with a 95 channeling priest...

 

If the options are 'leave it as it is' or 'remove it entirely', I'd go with removing shattering; if there's a 'massively reduce the chance' option, that would be where I'd vote.

 

Asdf, would you mind posting the full calculation that gave your table of shatter chances, please?  Enquiring minds want to know :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Still wrong btw, those who are correcting me. It may well be get int in WurmU code but seeing how many 0 power items I've had throughout the years it's using a float in the live code or am I completely deranged. Don't base everything on what you see in the WurmU code as there are some differences but not in every aspect. 

 

Perhaps better still ask for Dev input on this topic

Edited by Postinglels
Reasons

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this