Sign in to follow this  
Odynn

Shattering, the bane of channeling

Recommended Posts

2 hours ago, Pandalet said:

Asdf, would you mind posting the full calculation that gave your table of shatter chances, please?  Enquiring minds want to know :)

I'm not using a calculation, but rather a monte carlo experiment: simply run the code from Skill.java 10000 times, and examine the results.

 

But you could calculate it, here's how:

Spoiler

 

The result is governed by a normal distribution with the parameters:
mean = (skill ** 3 - difficulty ** 3) / 50000 + (skill - difficulty)

standard deviation = 30 - abs(skill - difficulty) / 4 + abs(mean) / 6

 

For example, for 87 skill (see below) and 60 difficulty, mean=35.8, stdev=29.2. So what's the chance that you'll get less than 0 on a roll from this distribution? The same as rescaled, the chance to roll less than (0 - 35.8)/29.2 = -1.23 from the standard normal distribution. Look it up in your table, and you'll note that this chance is about 11%.

 

Now do the same looking for roll >70. Now using that chance calculate how many casts you need on average for that power. Knowing how many times you need to cast, simply raise 0.99 to that power, and you'll learn the chance to not shatter the item.

 

Note: actual code also applies some checks to the result from the distribution, but typically you can safely skip that and you'll still get a very good approximation.

Why 87 skill? Because it uses the "effective skill" rather than base, increased by your altar bonus etc. In normal conditions, 80 skill will be 87 effective, 85 -> 90.25, 90 -> 93.5, 95 -> 96.75, 99 -> 99.35

 

 

 

 

 

@Postinglels

Quote

 

Still wrong btw, those who are correcting me. It may well be get int in WurmU code but seeing how many 0 power items I've had throughout the years it's using a float in the live code or am I completely deranged. Don't base everything on what you see in the WurmU code as there are some differences but not in every aspect. 

 

 

This random roll that we're talking about has nothing to do with the resulting power, and is not the same number

Edited by asdf

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

+1  And to all who say there should be risk vs reward, then let's expand that idea to all skills, and let there be a risk of shattering all items when improving them.  See how long that lasts when weapons, armor, etc. start shattering when imping them to 90, instead of just getting damaged.  Let's see how far the risk vs reward argument goes with the playerbase then.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Vroomfondel said:

+1  And to all who say there should be risk vs reward, then let's expand that idea to all skills, and let there be a risk of shattering all items when improving them.  See how long that lasts when weapons, armor, etc. start shattering when imping them to 90, instead of just getting damaged.  Let's see how far the risk vs reward argument goes with the playerbase then.

 

That's actually kind of brilliant. Maybe not full on shattering, but a LOT more damage on a fail. It does seem fair. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
if (power < -target.getQualityLevel() || (power < 0.0 && Server.rand.nextInt(100) == 0)) {
            performer.getCommunicator().sendNormalServerMessage("The fantastic WurmOnline emits a strong deep sound of resonance, then shatters!")

 

Quick Note for those who don't understand the code (or read my argument). There is two part here (power < -target.getQualityLevel()): the first part is saying if your enchantment power is higher than your item QL - gone baby gone. Ie : you roll a -99 and your fantastic wurmonline at 95QL shatter, bad luck but it's how the code should work. In my suggestion we keep that first part and we still have a shattering risk. Here is the risk vs reward. Work, improve, spend time and you will limit your risks.

 

The second part of the code is the utter nonsense I speak of (power < 0.0 && Server.rand.nextInt(100) == 0). Same 95QL fantastic WurmOnline, your priest is one of the best with 99 channeling, but no luck today (s)he rolled a [-1] power. And then the server decide "oh, it's a cast bellow 0, lets throw our 100 dice and see the results". And in that stroke of bad luck, if you got a 0 on that whole Int, your item is gone forever with the nice "The fantastic WurmOnline emits a strong deep sound of resonance, then shatters!". No others reasons than randomness, not skills, not the items quality, not how bad your roll was, simply bad luck.

 

And this part should go. Keep mechanism that make senses, not random punishing actions decided by a roll of dice costing players a part of their time, money, feelings and overall investment.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Even if the 1% chance to shatter on a failed power roll remains, I suggest the following:

 

For the love of god, at least scale the probability with rarity! This mechanic is much more defensible for mundane items than it is for when you want to get a supreme tool/weapon enchanted, and there's enough precedence in the code for rarity having effects similar to this.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, LorenaMontana said:

Shattering is fine as it is imo, i rarely shatter anything

 

As has been clarified in this thread in multiple different ways, your chance to shatter something is non-negligible no matter what your skill and bonuses, and no matter what the item is. It's the second part that bugs me the most.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

*Still cries after his rare huge axe..with his sig on it!!''

I'm a guy with a long term goal..I'd love one day to have all my tools,weapon,armor and whatnot(those i normaly use..not everything in the game)  to be rare and made by my hand..i get very sentimental over these things..But when you see this happening you are kind of forced to take a step back and  just keep them for display..and not acutally use them as i'm afraid to send them for enchants..even to those very high prists.

 

Something must be done..i mean..why work on a priest to get it to high levels when it can screw up like everyone else..

 

Huge +1

Edited by Jonydowy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

+1

 

This is a needlessly harsh mechanic, I say this as someone who casts a whole lot of LT at impalongs...  I still see their tears!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Comparing this to imping isn't really fair. The difference in usefulness between a 70QL item and a 90QL item is negligible, but the difference between 70 CoC and 90 CoC is huge. These spells are insanely useful, so a one-in-one-thousand chance of losing your item is more than worth it. No other profession in the game is capable of giving you what is essentially permanent sleep bonus, or weapons that keep you perma-healed, or tools that cut your work times to virtually nothing. Not to mention that imping to high QL will always require a significant time investment, whereas getting an acceptable enchant can take as little as 20 seconds. If you're upset that you shattered your chisel and have to imp another one to 90+, keep in mind that most non-priest skills involve nothing but monotonously imping items all day.

If enchanting were never added to the game, people would be jumping at the chance to add these effects to their gear, even despite the tiny amount of risk involved. But enchants are so ubiquitous now that people have forgotten just how good they have it.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

+1 It's time to bring shattering more up to date with the rest of the qol direction the game's taken over the last several years

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I wonder if you know what you are talking about Fawkes.

 

30 minutes ago, Fawkes said:

The difference in usefulness between a 70QL item and a 90QL item is negligible

 

Saddles, that's one speed boost, used to be the same for horse shoes, the gain in action speed is important, the damage a 90QL weapon will deal is way bigger than a 70QL one... and we are not even talking of armours, or overall actions success.

 

31 minutes ago, Fawkes said:

the difference between 70 CoC and 90 CoC is huge

 

20% less gain, not something i would call huge, knowing how frequent 70 casts are and how rare 90+ are, mid power casts are the bulk of enchants when most priest get an average of 40 powers on their casts. The speed gain on a WoA tools is also due for a big part on the QL. Enchants don't do everything even if they appear to be good at high power.

 

32 minutes ago, Fawkes said:

Not to mention that imping to high QL will always require a significant time investment, whereas getting an acceptable enchant can take as little as 20 seconds

 

Slot machines : either you get a perfect cast in the 30 seconds your first cast will take, or you will keep saccing, casting, saccing casting, saccing casting over and over again. That and make favor, always more favor. When a 90+ cast take you around 120 tries because it's purely based on luck, you can improve a lot more tools / weapons / armors with the same skill level to the same QL/power of 90.

 

34 minutes ago, Fawkes said:

most non-priest skills involve nothing but monotonously imping items all day

 

Pray (if you are bored), make favor, sacc, cast, sacc, cast, sacc, cast, shatter your item, log your account off. That is sooooooo much better indeed.

 

38 minutes ago, Fawkes said:

even despite the tiny amount of risk involved

 

The whole point of this thread is showing that it's not a tiny amount of risk, it's a damocles sword waiting upon your head. What would you say if any death in PvP could result in the complete removal of your account on a dice roll, because right now, that's a bit like that with shattering, no matter what amount of time or skill you invested, if the hand of fate slap you in the back, you are gone for good.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was scared to death of having my low-weight low-volume supreme tin shovel (from the Xanadu labyrinth) event enchanted, because the game seems to think that no matter how rare or unique an item is, you should roll the same dice when it comes to enchanting. That just ain't right. Enchantments are good enough that I can understand some small level of risk no matter what, but applying it the same to literally all items across the board is just plain unacceptable. I would hope that even people with perspectives like that of Fawkes can agree to that.

Edited by Ostentatio

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The overall theme seems to be a clear hatred toward priests.  Was this the design session

 

Lets remove their ability to survive on their own...takes continue...good now remove ability keep anything or make it better....takes improve...excellent that will suck, now lets nerf their ability to get better...nerfs body strength...no mean even more....nerfs body control...is that all you got...nerfs stamina, mind logic, mind speed...oh i like that, now lets see the spells...hmmm...need to make the ones on items dangerous...item spells can shatter tiems...oh and for one additional laugh, in case they only slightly fail make it randomly shatter anyway...flips another bird at priests...hahahahaha

 

Actually surprised they did not go ahead and add a shatter randomly on success just to drive the "hate priest" concept home.  

 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

+1 to OP suggestion.

 

On a side note:

 

20 hours ago, Klaa said:

Personally shattering should be expanded into other areas... such as animals exploding or mutating on failed Genesis casts. With a cooldown or some limitation to avoid too much usage in pvp.

 

I have no idea who made this gif but Klaa, I am sure it was just for you!

WaDYMA5.gif

  • Like 7

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, ClericGunem said:

The overall theme seems to be a clear hatred toward priests.  Was this the design session

 

Lets remove their ability to survive on their own...takes continue...good now remove ability keep anything or make it better....takes improve...excellent that will suck, now lets nerf their ability to get better...nerfs body strength...no mean even more....nerfs body control...is that all you got...nerfs stamina, mind logic, mind speed...oh i like that, now lets see the spells...hmmm...need to make the ones on items dangerous...item spells can shatter tiems...oh and for one additional laugh, in case they only slightly fail make it randomly shatter anyway...flips another bird at priests...hahahahaha

 

Actually surprised they did not go ahead and add a shatter randomly on success just to drive the "hate priest" concept home.  

 

 

You forgot long timers that a gnat biting you will interrupt!

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

+1 for Odynn's idea of removing the totally random (second part) of that equation, but keeping the first part. A priest that grinded his channeling should not have the same chances of shattering an item as a starter priest.
But i feel that there should always be a risk of losing your precious item if the cast is not good enough or if the priest is not experimented enough.

 

The first part of that equation deals with the item quality, the second part maybe should deal with the priest skill, not just a random dice throw

 

power < -performer.getChannelingSkill().knowledge && Server.rand.nextInt(100) == 0

or simpler, if the above one is too nerfed with the extra 1% introduced there

 

power < -performer.getChannelingSkill().knowledge

Edit: At least this way people will have a reason to grind to 100 channeling for the shatter proof enchanting :)

Edited by faty

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

coming from a person who's shattered a few scale pieces on multiple occasions, it's really not that bad.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Less we forget! Does anyone know were Enki lives ingame? Maybe we can bring a bunch of priests to his deed and stage a protest about this? XD

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/13/2016 at 4:24 AM, Archaed said:

Priests should not be free to cast constantly without risk

 

yes they should, enchanted items are a necessity past early game; on either side, you need them to speed up skillgain and action timers for even the most basic tasks so you can actually get your stuff done sometime before you die, in PvP they are a literal requirement as you will certainly be killed when facing someone else who has enchanted items when you don't

 

a few years ago - Oct 10, 2013:

  • Enchants shattering was tweaked and generalized. Some enchants now have a lot less chance of shatters while failing now always has a very small risk of shattering.

 

after this, we had 95+ channeling priests shattering 90+ql items, never before though

 

it takes YEARS of dedication to get a priest to 90+ channeling, by that point they should not have to suffer not only random ###### casts, but also destroyed items for no apparent reason

 

I suspect shattering was added at a time when Rolf thought that (highly) enchanted items would be rare, but as always, he added a system for inflow and not outflow, thus they built up and are now a requirement (see drake / scale, rare / supreme items, moon metal, etc.); the actual result is much different from the (assumed) intention, and we need to change the system to support how it works in practice, not the original design that didn't actually happen as planned

 

as a final note, too much in this game is left to randomness, especially priests - please fix at the very least the casting RNG to be much more consistent in its output

 

people complained about this (Jan. 22, 2015):

  • Archery damage is now a bit more random.

because we don't like randomness, we like consistent results from our skills - please give that to us

 

@Postinglels the random int and power are different values entirely

Edited by MisterTeddy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, MisterTeddy said:

 

it takes YEARS of dedication to get a priest to 90+ channeling

 

 

lol

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To answer bix reaaaaaaally nice comment, before nahjo, yes it did.

 

Because we had a new god totally based on randomness (see the pattern), we now have a dead market, a lot of high channeling priest, and a totally unbalanced situation with spells and favor cost.

 

On 17/1/2016 at 3:46 AM, MisterTeddy said:

we don't like randomness, we like consistent results from our skills - please give that to us

 

That, nothing more to say, randomness and the way it's managed in Wurm is punishing. And mechanism punishing your players stupidly just drive them away.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Whoever said priests should not be able to cast without risk, it's not much different than being able to attempt to improve without risk. I'm sure many a smith ruined a blade with a misplaced blow. I'm sure many a carpenter ruined their work by carving off a bit too much or making an uneven cut. You don't crack blades imping them as a weaponsmith. Why should you turn them into vapor as a priest? It would cause quite an uproar that if an improve action failed, the item gets destroyed.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this