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Audrel

We 80 above sea level?

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It's not 80 dirts above ground. I have a fairly long bridge with several supports way up on a hill and that bridge hits the ground at 0 height at the end. But when I went to duplicate the bridge from the terrace to the bottom of the deed, I can't. Why? Because a support needs to be 80 dirts above water. Not 80 dirts tall. 80 above water, even water that is not there. 

 

I admit, there are a such thing as Prairie Schooners...

 

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prairie_schooner__full-image.jpg

 

but there is not...

 

Spoiler

 

 

It's bad enough that we who live on the coast need to pile up to 10 dirts at the bottom of a bridge but to be limited to bridges 5 long and under because supports won't fit is annoying to say the least.

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After reading those other threads one thing stands out to me:  Despite so many players asking for this change, or at least a reasoning behind not wanting to change it, nobody from the dev team seemed interested enough in what the players were asking, to respond.  I am wondering why, in this current situation where Rolf asked us for a Plan for a Plan to not only attract new players but also retain older players, we are not given reasons for why this change cannot be made?  Please devs, respond to our questions and tell us why you refuse to change bridges to not need 80 above water even when they are NOT over water?  Why do they even need that height clearance over water?  Arched bridges, five tiles wide, can be sailed through by any ship, given there is enough depth below the bridge itself.  And arched bridges, five tiles wide, need a ten clearance above water...

 

There are many instances where long term and loyal players ask for something and never get any responses back, just being ignored or told "no, because we say so".  This is not the way to retain your customers.  I am sure most people can understand if the answer to a request is "no", given reasonable explanation as to why, but just being ignored usually irks even the most reasonable of people.

 

Bump to this and all the other requests to change the height requirements for bridges, and a serious request to please respond to us, the playerbase, if you are not going to change it for some reason. 

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I am going to assume that the 80 dirt limit was implemented for a simple and easy reason!  60 Dirt is the height of a tall Stone wall which can be built under a bridge....  Also ships need to be able to pass under.

 

And just because you can't see the water there doesnt mean its not there if you dig down you will create water!  This is a common wurm feature...  So any bridge in the sandbox needs to be able to have enough clearance for a bridge no matter how far inland it is...  and also needs to be able to have a Tall stone wall fit underneath it....  I assume the extra 20 Dirt seperation between the 60 dirt height and the current limit is to ensure things look good!

 

I personally have built a ton of bridges and I have had zero issue droping a small dirt ramp in order to make a bridge at sea level possible, its a cake walk compared to a 300 Slope Dirt wall Perimeter of a deed!  

 

So what exactly do you want ???  Bridges that rest ontop of a Large Stone Wall or Large stone wall's built under bridges that then magically pass thru the bridge and block the road...  is the 20 Dirt Margin for appearance something that is this worth stomping your feet over???  Personally I would much rather they work on the bridge glitches like embarking a cart and ending up under the bridge then this silly omg I cant have my flat bridge at sea level whinging!

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12 minutes ago, sulfurblade said:

I am going to assume that the 80 dirt limit was implemented for a simple and easy reason!  60 Dirt is the height of a tall Stone wall which can be built under a bridge....  Also ships need to be able to pass under.

 

And just because you can't see the water there doesnt mean its not there if you dig down you will create water!  This is a common wurm feature...  So any bridge in the sandbox needs to be able to have enough clearance for a bridge no matter how far inland it is...  and also needs to be able to have a Tall stone wall fit underneath it....  I assume the extra 20 Dirt seperation between the 60 dirt height and the current limit is to ensure things look good!

 

I personally have built a ton of bridges and I have had zero issue droping a small dirt ramp in order to make a bridge at sea level possible, its a cake walk compared to a 300 Slope Dirt wall Perimeter of a deed!  

 

So what exactly do you want ???  Bridges that rest ontop of a Large Stone Wall or Large stone wall's built under bridges that then magically pass thru the bridge and block the road...  is the 20 Dirt Margin for appearance something that is this worth stomping your feet over???  Personally I would much rather they work on the bridge glitches like embarking a cart and ending up under the bridge then this silly omg I cant have my flat bridge at sea level whinging!

 

Yeah yeah yeah. Whatever. None of that means ###### when it's on my deed and there's not going to be water under it, boats going under it, or goddamn tall stone walls under it. 

 

Tell me, how many 11 tile long flat bridges did you build from a terrace to under 80 dirts up? None. That's the ###### point.

 

And also tell me, what's the difference that the exact same bridge is built on the terrace above it without any issues at all? It's still got every issue you pointed out about walls and ###### going under it. The only difference is no landcaravels will try to go through the walls around my deed to get stuck under it.

Edited by Audrel

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11 minutes ago, sulfurblade said:

I am going to assume that the 80 dirt limit was implemented for a simple and easy reason!  60 Dirt is the height of a tall Stone wall which can be built under a bridge....  Also ships need to be able to pass under.

 

And just because you can't see the water there doesnt mean its not there if you dig down you will create water!  This is a common wurm feature...  So any bridge in the sandbox needs to be able to have enough clearance for a bridge no matter how far inland it is...  and also needs to be able to have a Tall stone wall fit underneath it....  I assume the extra 20 Dirt seperation between the 60 dirt height and the current limit is to ensure things look good!

 

I personally have built a ton of bridges and I have had zero issue droping a small dirt ramp in order to make a bridge at sea level possible, its a cake walk compared to a 300 Slope Dirt wall Perimeter of a deed!  

 

So what exactly do you want ???  Bridges that rest ontop of a Large Stone Wall or Large stone wall's built under bridges that then magically pass thru the bridge and block the road...  is the 20 Dirt Margin for appearance something that is this worth stomping your feet over???  Personally I would much rather they work on the bridge glitches like embarking a cart and ending up under the bridge then this silly omg I cant have my flat bridge at sea level whinging!

 

Thanks for your assumptions.  I was actually asking the devs for facts.

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13 minutes ago, Fairyshine said:

 

Thanks for your assumptions.  I was actually asking the devs for facts.

You really need a dev to tell you why being able to build a Flat bridge and 40 Dirt High is a bad idea..... Because someone else can come along and build a 60 Dirt high Tall wall on the tile below now whats 60 -40 = 20?  So you would end up with a 20 Dirt High Fence that blocks your person from being able to travel on your bridge because they allowed you to build a bridge below 60 Dirts....  This issue is basic common sense!  They for once used it an put in place a 80 dirt limit to avoid the obvious griefing and such that would have ensued if they didn't....

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They can do the same thing on the bridge one terrace up. It's not 80 over the flat ground for 90% of it. So your point is moot. It's obviously not basic common sense or you would need 80 clearance under ANY bridge. It's arbitrary and it limits people who are built in a valley instead of on a mountain. I can sail under a 5 tile long bridge. Does it being 6 tiles long magically change it? I can't even make an arched bridge because it says it's too steep. It's not, but it says it. So your "better than a 300 dirt ramp?" Right. That's the only thing available.

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1 hour ago, sulfurblade said:

You really need a dev to tell you why being able to build a Flat bridge and 40 Dirt High is a bad idea..... Because someone else can come along and build a 60 Dirt high Tall wall on the tile below now whats 60 -40 = 20?  So you would end up with a 20 Dirt High Fence that blocks your person from being able to travel on your bridge because they allowed you to build a bridge below 60 Dirts....  This issue is basic common sense!  They for once used it an put in place a 80 dirt limit to avoid the obvious griefing and such that would have ensued if they didn't....

 

Yes, that is what I am asking for.  I would like a dev to answer me with facts, not a player make smug comments based on his own assumptions.  Also, I am unsure if you are familiar with deed settings but on my deed, that I pay for and manage, nobody is going to come along and build dirt or other types of walls under my bridges.  And seriously, if they do it to bridges not on deed, imagine how they will be branded griefers by the wurm community.  I fail to see why everything always has to come back to "let's not allow players more creativity as it will lead to more griefing".  It rarely if ever does.  There are so many ways players can already use game mechanics to grief, for example, they can put gates across the entrances of your bridge and block your access that way.  Can it happen? Sure.  Does it happen often? No.  Should we also stop players from building gates at bridge entrances as you are scared someone may block your access on a bridge you built?

 

That being said, IF bridges are allowed to start at sea level or ten above, like we are requesting, for any length of bridge, and you, on your own deed, that YOU pay for and manage, still choose to make 80 high dirt walls to start your bridges, feel free to do so.  But please stop telling other players, in a sandbox game, that everyone should play like you do.

 

Also, please note that that as far as I can tell, the bottom floor of a house is 33 high, the next (and all after that) are 30 each.  If you want to start a bridge from the top of a house, as things currently stand, you need either 17 dirt plus on top of the dirt two storeys to equal 80 high, or three storeys, which are 33 plus 30 plus 30 (93) to start the bridge at sea level.  Now, you don't need this height clearance if you build a bridge above 80 above sea level.  You can start any bridge above 80 dirts above sea level, straight from the ground.  Your argument is that they don't want people to place tall stone walls under the bridge as the wall will stick through the bridge and obstruct your path.  However, any bridge built higher up than 80 above water, don't need any clearance under it. For this reason, you cannot build any fence under the bridge if the fence won't fit.  Your argument about tall stone walls needing to fit, is moot as it won't allow you to build a fence, any fence, under the bridge, if it won't fit.  And speaking of tall stone walls, if I have to venture a guess, they are about 36 high. Look at this picture below.  On the left is a tall stone wall.  On the right is a bottom floor of a house (33, note how the tall stone wall is slightly higher) and the next floor of the house (another 30, the right hand side totals 63 high):  rG9p5l9.jpg

 

If we are talking about having built heaps of bridges, we helped build or built ourselves, two double marble bridges over stretches of ocean, both of these bridges span about 200 tiles each.  One consists of flat bridges connected via dirt piers, the other of arched bridges connected via dirt piers.  We also built four bridges ringing our deed, two are stone, 29 tiles long each, and two more, connecting very high dirt walls with the bridges long bridges, via houses.  We also built a double wide marble bridge called Rainbow Road, which was featured in the news section not that long ago.  We built and adjusted numerous shorter bridges between houses and over moats.  And we poofed a long-as exceedingly high bridge in front of another deed as the stupid houses it connected to, kept throwing us off our carts and the 80 high dirt walls we tried to replace the houses with, blocked our whole view of the ocean.  We then replaced this one long bridge with three small garden style bridges, to not impede our ocean views.  

 

I do not believe players should be worried about asking stuff they would really like to see in game, because they are scared that the devs would then have to choose to either do the player requests versus fixing bugs.  I believe bugs should be addressed, regardless.  However, when the developer of a game asks players for a "plan for a plan" about what would attract new players to game or retain long term and loyal players, long term players should be allowed to voice some suggestions and full well expect that a dev would take the five minutes to respond to one of the numerous threads of frustrated players about why decisions were made, instead of just ignoring us and hoping some random player or a fanboi club member will come along with assumptions to convince the rest of us about why developers made decisions (maybe, perhaps or based on what you think). 

Edited by Fairyshine
Fixed the maths up a bit more, so it is easier to understand
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2 hours ago, sulfurblade said:

You really need a dev to tell you why being able to build a Flat bridge and 40 Dirt High is a bad idea..... Because someone else can come along and build a 60 Dirt high Tall wall on the tile below now whats 60 -40 = 20?  So you would end up with a 20 Dirt High Fence that blocks your person from being able to travel on your bridge because they allowed you to build a bridge below 60 Dirts....  This issue is basic common sense!  They for once used it an put in place a 80 dirt limit to avoid the obvious griefing and such that would have ensued if they didn't....

 

You don't seem to understand the feature we're talking about.

 

The game does not require the bridge to be 80 above ground. It requires the bridge to be 80 above sea level.

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Forget the slopes.  Fix the glitches and bugs trying to ride a horse over a bridge. Comon devs. Bug fixing

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2zgusgo.jpgSo I am reading how I do not know anything about bridges yet I have built the Longest bridge on all of Affliction and maybe the largest on Epic....  I have built 8 smaller Bridges over our Canal system I have  a ring of bridges around the perimeter of my deed I have bridges between different guard towers of my deed you can drive nearly any where on my deed with your cart via ramps and flat wood bridges with no issue to different stories....  

 

I have yet to have these quote issues you all are having because I simply create a dirt ramp if I need the clearance....  

 

You all have to remember that the bridge features are the same in Freedom and Epic and while you only have to worry about limited griefing mechanics on Epic we have far more issues to worry about where Griefing is not "against the rules" and someone putting a wall across your road is normal activity!  Yes obviously these limitations they have in place are geared towards avoiding the obvious griefing that would happen in the PvP area's of wurm... So I am sorry if that effects your peaceful creative mode....  

 

But before we start worrying about your creativity- I think simply being able to get across said bridge without being De-mounted bye each gate house and or ending up under the bridge when you embark a cart issues are of far more concern then what your complaining about!!!

 

And as for the guy saying he is in a valley!!!  I could turn your valley into an ocean if I so felt inclined to do so with a shovel a dredge and time!  So Yes 80 Dirts above sea level can apply to nearly everyone as this game has extensive terraforming features, so I am sorry if your valley Deed is at sea level or near it and your having issues with clearance but if your deed were to be removed with said bridges infront of it and someone latter came into the same area with dreams of making a Canal to the ocean they can do so... Because your bridge is not an issue.....IMG]

 

So one of the big things this prevents is Bridges being used for blocking ships!  As I must admit before bridges were implemented I had envisioned a big long bridge across the top of the server at the boundry that would block all shipping from being able to get thru!  Would be far easier then making a giant dirt wall which mind you doesnt work because the server boundry has the whole magical extra tiles that your dirt endlessly runs down....  But how does this work?  Because a ship has a hit box from its keel to around the head of the driver, the whole mast area is just magically not there....  even the crows nest does not have physics with a person inside of it.....  and so the height between keel and driver on a caravel and cog is likely around 80.....  So we currently have a bridge system that all ships can pass under with no physics issues because of the magic 80 Dirt above sea level number!  So I can't make a big bridge to block ships? bummer....

 

Granted when you see a big ship like the cog in my picture that is obviously far taller then the 80 dirt high section of the begining of the bridge in the picture and it magically pass's thru it, well its not exactly realistic is it?!?  So imagine if they made it the 160 Dirt high so all ships could pass under mast and all without magically clipping thru the bridge.... wow you guys would really be complaining! 

 

There will always be comlaints, the realism folks will say that doesnt make sense the pvp folks will utilize a bridge to be a barrier, but currently they have done a very good job balancing it out!  So bridges are not being abused or griefed as would definately happen if you got your wish!

 

Edited by sulfurblade
picture didnt show

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You still don't get it. How much clearance is under that bridge? It ends 150 dirts up on a terrace. Can the walls you speak of block this bridge? Does it end higher than any wall in the game before it meets the ground?

 

Subtract 150 from the terrain height. Say this ends at 1. Does it makes any difference at all in what you are going on about?

 

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wA1sSjE.png

 

It makes absolutely no difference at all. None. If that is at 1 dirt or at 1000 dirt above sea level, your griefing would happen on that bridge.

 

Spoiler

HZquhuW.png

 

Here you see the support plan 2 tiles ahead. It is at about 40 above the ground given the slope. It's nowhere near 80 high. Not even close. 

 

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DlmUbyB.png

 

Count them. 3 bridges. None have 80 clearance on the supports. Not one. 

 

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0OdOxVb.png

 

These are now finished but I can sail every ship in the game under them. They are at most 20 over water. With that being true, instead of a pile of dirt in the center, what difference would it make if it was a support? You can't sail through the dirt tile either. You can build a wall on it. You can put a writ on it. 

 

Your arguments hold no water because those last 2 bridge are far easier griefed on all 3 sides.

Edited by Audrel
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In picture 1

 

      The base of the slope is solid and you cannot walk under it at the point needed to place a Tall wall ....  where you can walk is where you can indeed place a tall wall....

 

Picture 2 is just another angle of picture 1

 

Picture 3... you don't need 80 clearance you need 80 dirt over sea level....  and you are clearly well above sea level.... however the slope needed to make that ramp determined you would not be able to stick a tall wall under it in such a way that It would phase thru the ramp and block movement did it?  

 

Picture 4....  That is not more then 5 tiles in length so again doesn't require the clearance and oddly has different collision properties as I assume they decided to get rid of collision on bridges this short...

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Can you walk thru a support?  Can you sail thru a support?  Can you drive thru a support?

 

Bridges with supports have collision because the supports require collision......  

 

Do you remember all the issues they had with Mobs passing thru these short bridges???  Because they don't have collision!  

 

 

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I can´t walk under it at 1 above water level either. Done with you. I don´t have any puppets and crayons and I doubt you would get it anyway.

Edited by Audrel

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Its really not that hard to figure out....  

 

Collision was an issue how to get ship hit box's to pass thru an item with collision.....  oh take away collision for short bridges..... ah we can now get ships thru....  leave collision on the bridges with supports ensure there tall enough to avoid collision with a ships hit box...  code collision for humans and rideable creatures for short bridges....  put it live..... oh no mobs are passing thru bridges.... code a fix for the collisionless bridges so that they also collide with mobs....

 

 

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Dude! It doesn't matter if it is 1 dirt up or 1000! It's the same bridge! It has the same collisions! Or the same lack of collisions! It doesn't matter where the hell the damn thing is, if a support can be 2 inches tall at 100 dirts, it can be 2 inches tall at 1. It's not rocket science. It's an arbitrary number. If I can't build a wall because I can't walk under it at 150 dirts up, how would I do it at 1?

 

Seriously. Go back whining about your PvP deed getting wrecked by dragons. You've derailed the ###### out of this enough that no dev will even look it. No wonder someone ganked you 100 times in a row. I wish I could.

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What do you need to do in order to sail a caravel under that bridge that your talking about???  

 

Hint you need to dig down to water!!!  After digging you can sail a ship under it.....  why because it now has tall dirt pillars with short supports but supports none the less!  But because it has supports it has Collision with a ships hit box and Mauls when you bash it etc etc....why because its longer then 5 tiles long....

 

This obviously boils down to coding...  and the short bridge that can pass ships likely has far more code because of it.... and likely is missing some kind of feature or coding that they want to leave on the bigger bridges.... My guess is something to do with bashing....

 

But I am sure this all boils down too two different codes for small short 5 tile long bridges and a different code for the rest...  And most all the issues definately deal with collision!  Like for instance debarking a cart and ending up under the bridge!  Mobs passing thru... Items dropped on bridge not registering on the bridge etc....

 

 

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, sulfurblade said:

2zgusgo.jpgSo I am reading how I do not know anything about bridges yet I have built the Longest bridge on all of Affliction and maybe the largest on Epic....  I have built 8 smaller Bridges over our Canal system I have  a ring of bridges around the perimeter of my deed I have bridges between different guard towers of my deed you can drive nearly any where on my deed with your cart via ramps and flat wood bridges with no issue to different stories....  

 

 

At the risk of derailing... I like the setup.

 

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Hi all,

 

Thanks for raising this, I have been taking notes of questions regarding it, and will most definitely Grab an answer for you regarding the 80 dirt requirement.

 

Once I have one I'll update you all.

 

-Retro

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1 hour ago, Klaa said:

 

At the risk of derailing... I like the setup.

 

I was thinking the same thing Klaa, it's a neat design.

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I agree with Klaa and Dorian:  Your deed does like neat.  You built some nice bridges.  I don't know as much about bridges as you do, I am sure, but I thought that arched bridges had "transparent" middle sections regardless of how long they are.  For this reason, only the two tiles at the two ends of the arched bridges are solid (both sides) while the middle section is "transparent" and you can pass through it.  For this reason, if you build a four tile arched bridge, it becomes a solid wall, you cannot walk through it, as the two tiles on each end touch each other, without a middle section which is transparent.  However, a five tile arched bridge does have this middle tile which is transparent, hence ships and people can walk through or sail through it despite it being only ten tiles high over water to start and end with.  We made these types of bridges at our deed so our knarrs can easily sail through the middle tile of the five tile bridges, as long as there is enough depth under that tile for the ship.  Now, given this is the situation for arched bridges, it stands to reason that arched bridges longer than five tiles, would also have a transparent middle section, so they can easily be built in the same height over water as the five tile one, and still let any ship pass through them.  In fact, longer arched bridges would create LESS chance for collision as there would be less dirt piles to navigate...yet, they require 80 above water.  I am unsure your argument about collisions apply to arched bridges. So why the requirement for 80 over water level?  Like most things in Wurm, we are left to guessing and assuming.
 
With regards to flat bridges, as mentioned in another thread, any ship can sail under a bridge which is 40 dirts high, so why require flat bridges to be 80?  40 will allow ships to pass under flat bridges, no need to have them 80 above water.
 
Your mentioning of different coding for different lengths of bridges finally brought us to what the OP requested right at the start:  We are asking the devs to change the coding so that we can build longer bridges with similar requirements than the short bridges.  If this means applying the same coding to the longer ones than what currently applies to the shorter ones, that is what we are asking for, and wondering if this is not going to happen when so many people are asking for it, why not?  I believe that this thread was really not a discussion about what currently is happening or open invitation to speculate as to why this is currently happening, it was a request for changes to what is currently happening and if changes are not going to be made, a request for a dev to come here and tell us why not.  Obviously, nobody is asking for changes that will let ships get stuck, so coding has to be changed or revisited.
 
People who know me will tell you I know very little about digging and even less about mining, so I was wondering with regards to these scenarios of canals you envisage which one day years into the future after the current deed has fallen and someone else wants to go dig a canal in the exact spot where there is currently a bridge, a bridge which currently serves as a ramp and is totally over dry land, a bridge which perhaps is located in places high up and inland in wurm like on mountain tops where bridges are used creatively to link impassable terrain areas, with impossible slopes, could you please tell me what level of digging skill will be required to dig such a canal, not to mention the amounts of surface mining to actually reach water from say under a bridge built on the top of a mountain in Wurm?  Is it even possible?  Why would anyone want to sail a caravel under such a bridge any way?  Wouldn't it be easier and less time consuming to just wait for it to decay or catapult it with stuff (always a fun activity)?  Or deed there and then use mayor bonus to bash the bridge into oblivion, the same way you would do with a fence, or on Epic where you live, even with a house?  By the same token, wouldn't the same arguments apply to bridges built low and close to water, namely it would be easier to just get rid of them?  I really don't understand your argument here, because I don't understand how this is any different to what we currently do if there are fences or houses in our way when we want to terraform.  
 
I understand your concern about boxing ships in with bridges, hence why we are requesting a look at the coding of these.  
 
Lastly, I believe that fences cannot be built under bridges which are too low for the fence to fit under.  You cannot build tall walls under bridges which will stick through the bridge to obstruct you (or any other person or even a dragon) from passing over the bridge.  However, build a four tile in length bridge, and it is a solid wall, nothing can pass through it.  And further, gate and lock the bridge, and nothing can get into it.  In this manner, bridges in its current form, can be used for griefing or be griefed.  
 
Thank you Retro for taking note of our request for a dev to give us feedback, we would like to get some answers as to this 80 above water requirement, and if not really a good reason for it, request it be changed.
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