Is it allowed?

[Alexgopen 2,376]

To decompile the entire server jar and then correct errors throughout until it will compile, and then debug it until you're able to host a server off of a server.jar that you compiled from the decompiled version?

 

I mean its essentially what we've been doing so far with modding, except we did it on maybe one or two classes at a time, so I assume that this being allowed holds true for the entire jar?

 

Because i uh... yea...

 

it works

 

 

Edited December 4, 2015 by Alexgopen

[JockII 338]

Tbh, he should just release the full source  code.

[Alexgopen 2,376]

1 minute ago, JockII said:

Tbh, he should just release the full source  code.

 

I mean that's essentially what I've turned the server.jar into.  I have a full set of code for the server.jar that I'm able to compile and host a server from. And it works; I can connect to it and play on it over the internet from another computer.

[Rolf 3,563]

Yes, it's expected. Nothing we can control or have the possibilites to pursue. Part of modding. Negative thing is the code can change fairly dramatically between releases which is why we will add a proper API for modding that won't change as much as the compiled code.

[Alexgopen 2,376]

2 minutes ago, Rolf said:

Yes, it's expected. Nothing we can control or have the possibilites to pursue. Part of modding. Negative thing is the code can change fairly dramatically between releases which is why we will add a proper API for modding that won't change as much as the compiled code.

 

Thanks for clarifying and with such a quick response!

[asdf 297]

Why would that be surprising and/or useful?

[Alexgopen 2,376]

8 hours ago, Rolf said:

Yes, it's expected. Nothing we can control or have the possibilites to pursue. Part of modding. Negative thing is the code can change fairly dramatically between releases which is why we will add a proper API for modding that won't change as much as the compiled code.

 

One last thing, is it allowed to distribute this to other modders or am i only allowed to have it for personal use?

[Zenity 728]

5 hours ago, Alexgopen said:

 

One last thing, is it allowed to distribute this to other modders or am i only allowed to have it for personal use?

 

I don't see anything explicitly preventing you allowing your codebase to be available to other people modding, As Rolf has already stated, allowing the code to be available as it is he has already accepted that it will not only be decompiled, but altered and recompiled or simply changed by the addition/injection of new code and classes.

 

I expect most modders will already have fully recompilable code for servers and clients, but it's actually simpler to use a modloader approach at present, especially with the certainty of patches overwriting your code with an updated version, so with every update you'll be faced with the same task over and over.

 

The wording of the EULA in regard to this specifically is:

" You acknowledge and agree that you shall have no ownership or other property interest in the software and that the software is under the sole ownership of Code Club AB. ".

 

So even though you have decompiled and worked on the code such that it is possible to recompile it and run it, it's still not your code, however you have had it explicitly acknowledged that the code is available to you to modify, which implies that as long as you don't claim ownership or rights to any of the code that you have decompiled and recompiled, then you are not infringing on Code Club AB's copyrighted work.

 

You do have an implied right to distribute your source code within the Wurm Unlimited community, since you are not attempting to claim any rights over the code, I'd personally see that as 'fair use', and would hope Code Club AB's legal team would agree to that in principle, (because that's pretty much what Rolf has previously stated and implied).

 

TL/DR: Yes, you can distribute the unmodified source code derived from the decompilation of the provided software within the modding community.

 

I'm just fairly sure most modders will already have their own version

[Ulviirala 431]

On 12/4/2015 at 1:26 PM, Rolf said:

Yes, it's expected. Nothing we can control or have the possibilites to pursue. Part of modding. Negative thing is the code can change fairly dramatically between releases which is why we will add a proper API for modding that won't change as much as the compiled code.

It's funny how Minecraft and Wurm keep having things in common, "modding API" seems to be a good running joke  as well as "decompiling and modding is fine, but we're not making it open source". Crapping on people's deep-felt love for a game, and telling them "who's a good boy/girl? *pat pat*"  

Edited February 14, 2017 by Ulviirala
Edit reason: added more salt

[Xyp 273]

9 minutes ago, Ulviirala said:

It's funny how Minecraft and Wurm keep having things in common, "modding API" seems to be a good running joke  as well as "decompiling and modding is fine, but we're not making it open source". Crapping on people's deep-felt love for a game, and telling them "who's a good boy/girl? *pat pat*"  

 

I think Rolf may have spoken too soon on the modding API. A proper modding api that is not a hack like we use now (be it a good hack lol) would take a lot of time and effort, that the extremely small and mostly part time Wurm team just does not have. Though I know some effort is being made to clean up the code and make it more modular, which is step number 1, it is a huge undertaking.

I am pretty sure the reason they do not release the source code, is when you decompile the code, you do not get the comments. There are probably quite a few future plan/proprietary, and other important NDA comments in the code they do not wan't getting out to anyone who has not signed their legally binding NDA agreement that a CC team member has signed. Not to mention decompiled code, though maybe close, is not always 100% accurate, hence the reason it has to be debugged and fixed before it will even run.

I am just thankful that they now allow us to decompile the code and make our own versions of the game we have loved for so many years, but always wanted our own adjustments to. Now we can make them.

[Ulviirala 431]

Good points, I'm just salty on many levels when it comes to Wurm and sometimes, one of those years old salt stalactites breaks off, and impales somebody's heart I'm sure  I don't mean to be rude and talk sh...(whispers)

[Xyp 273]

10 minutes ago, Ulviirala said:

Good points, I'm just salty on many levels when it comes to Wurm and sometimes, one of those years old salt stalactites breaks off, and impales somebody's heart I'm sure  I don't mean to be rude and talk sh...(whispers)

 

I get it, been there, done that, wanted the source released even if I had to pay a monthly fee for it at one point. Gave up on that lol...

 

 

I appreciate the mods you have made and the help to the community you have given though!

[Alexgopen 2,376]

Bumping for some clarification on this again, because previously we discussed the stance on the server, but not the client.

 

The recent news about an Elevation map reset got me interested in Wurm again, but I can't help but feel nostalgia for how the game used to be.  A lot of other players feel similar and unironically would be interested in an older version of the game.

 

Last Sunday I dug up and started working on bugfixing my old decompiled versions of the WU 1.0.0.0 server and client from December 3 2015.  I'd like to try and get it all running smoothly, and then be able to modify said server/client by working with this source directly, rather than relying on making mods compatible with whatever the currently released version of WU is.  This would make it much more reasonable to extensively mod the server and client to get them back to a state similar to how the game was in around 2012.  Currently I'm at the point where I can run both the server and the client from decompiled source out of my IDE, and play on that server for hours while looking for bugs to fix, which I can debug with breakpoints while playing.  

 

Right now I'm unclear on whether it would be allowed to distribute the modded 1.0.0.0 client to others in order to connect to and play on this extremely outdated server.  All of the Steam authentication and use of Steam API is fully functioning and intact, so users would still be required to purchase the game on Steam in order to play.  This client would not be able to join any of the currently existing WU servers, because it is many years outdated and doesn't match the current protocol version.  This means that players would not be able to play WU for free.  

 

I'm also unclear on whether it's allowed to distribute the decompiled client source to other modders for the purpose of collaboration on this project, so for now it's only me working on it, making progress slow.  

 

I've tried going through old staff responses to gain an understanding of what is/isn't allowed, but I've come across conflicting statements and would like an official response here.

 

In short:

• Can I distribute an older version of the client with Steam authentication intact, meaning users had to have purchased the game in order to play on it?
• Can I distribute source for an older version of the client, so that modders can collaborate on a project to restore WU to a state similar to an older version of Wurm?
• If no to either of the above, is there a way that it would be allowed to get users running an older/custom version of WU, such as through a patcher or other means?
• If yes to the previous patcher question, what are the specifics on what would/wouldn't be allowed in that case?

 

@Retrogradeplease check on this and forward this message on for me, because a lot of us would really like a classic 2012 type WU PVP server, and I feel that there's potential for this project to succeed if it is allowed.

 

Spoiler

Sneak peak: Just got done fixing the decompiled renderer the other day (both screenshots taken from the same location, both server and client running from source)

 

 

[nitram20 90]

Just release it and see what happens. If the devs are unwilling to give a clear proper answer then the only way we can find out (or get them to react) is by doing so

Alternativly you can dm Retrogarde in the wurm unlimited modding discord and he should (hopefully reply)

[nitram20 90]

On 12/4/2015 at 2:26 PM, Rolf said:

Negative thing is the code can change fairly dramatically between releases which is why we will add a proper API for modding that won't change as much as the compiled code.

Oh by the way did this ever happen? Im clueles when it comes to WU modding.

[Sklo:D 2,210]

1 hour ago, nitram20 said:

Oh by the way did this ever happen? Im clueles when it comes to WU modding.

 

No API.

[Cuddles 261]

i would say if you are changing it to be able to bypass the steam usage and so you can distribute it to people to use without paying then it would probably be against the rules. if you are just changing stuff and still using the part of the game where they actually get revenue then it will probably be fine.

[Retrograde 12,013]

Redistributing client and server files is against steam ToS and our EULA. 

 

As for a patcher I don't believe it would be possible, this is why mods now use agos modloader. 

 

 

[Alexgopen 2,376]

1 hour ago, Retrograde said:

Redistributing client and server files is against steam ToS and our EULA. 

 

As for a patcher I don't believe it would be possible, this is why mods now use agos modloader. 

 

 

 

 

In that case, the old vanilla client that's compatible with my decompiled server is still available through secure download on Steam.  If Code Club leaves the old versions up, then players who bought the game on Steam could get that version from Steam, and I could write regular modloader mods for that version.  Meanwhile I could work directly with the server source to make changes to it more easily than writing server mods.  

 

This way I wouldn't be distributing any server/client files, but players' access to the compatible client would be completely dependent upon Code Club continuing to offer it on Steam.  My concern with this scenario is that maybe someday Code Club removes the older versions of the game from Steam, and then nobody would be able to play on the server anymore.  

 

Can I get a statement on whether or not Code Club is going to leave the old versions up?  If so then I can continue working toward making a really cool oldschool Wurm Unlimited server.  

[Sklo:D 2,210]

The really cool stuff would be to have a server from pre 2010, Wurm felt like a completly different game back in 2009