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Miretta

Is there gonna be a world war 3?

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and why do we put so much money and ressources etc. into military instead of using it to research what people need, to stop fighting?

Why do we know that people will do WHATEVER for survival, if their basic needs are taken away, but then we condemn those who explode themselves or create massacres?

Why are we being teached in school about wars and so many details, but not about WHY are people fighting (no, i don't mean the manipulated reason why they believed they are fighting)?

Why are people cheering at france to attack Isis, if all it leads to is more death?

why do we think it's the "lesser" evil?

why is media talking about terrorism when people from the "south" are fighting and waging war, but it's only "military tactics" or whatever when western countries do the same?

why are we allowing dehumanization to happen in terms of "generalizations" like : islamists, Isis members, southerners, refugees?

 

if we would get to know each individual of those "refugees" or southerners or whatever, if we know them by name, know their families...know their situation...would we still be okay with being led by fear that there could be terrorists between them? would we still think it's ok to NOT help them?

and if we are so afraid of terrorists....how come we can bomb a country thousands of kms away and "know" that we would only hit isis members, but we are not capable of recognizing weapons being carried? and i can say one thing for sure...those weapons most likely weren't coming from outside...

 

how are people talking about the tragedy in paris so much, but no one seems to want to look at WHAT exactly france has bombed now? All those years, no one of european countries wanted to seriously start bombing isis (so they "only" did it in a small scale, which is good enough to make people hate europeans even more...) because they knew that isis tactics are hiding within hospitals and schools with alot of civilians in it...what happened to that?

how can ANYONE tell me that this airstrike of france was rational and thought through after just 2!!!! days of the happening in paris....

 

how can we live with this?

Honestly...I'm afraid....I'm living in finland and I'm afraid of whats to come, I'm afraid of "people in power" just repeating the same mistakes over and over again, that they will start a war because they think it's the "right" thing to do, because they think that they have reason, because they believe that it is the only way to stop violence.....by violence...

 

Why is it, that when I tell people, that I don't like this and don't want war, that I'm often getting the response: "but we can't do nothing! we have to do something" ? 
How can it be that we call ourselves "civilized" and that we have internet, that we are better educated than ever before and that we have alot of awesome technology, but we are not capable of thinking that there is more than "war or submission"? that there might be another option? why are people being told "you are naive" or "hugs and kisses won't win wars"? 

 

 

we can educate! we can fill basic needs! we have enough food! we have enough shelter! we can help people! we can think of solutions! We can do ALOT together!
do you really think ANYONE on this planet wants war, death and being afraid for their lives?loosing family members etc.? 

 

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You're forgetting the main point whereby these people want to kill you, your friends and everybody you ever loved because you are not one of them. That's the reason why we drop bombs and will continue to do so until they are gone. If we are attacked, we retaliate. If they attack again, we retaliate some more. We won't stop hitting them until they stop hitting us or are eliminated completely.


 


It's not ideal, but then again nothing is. Collateral damage is unfortunate but it's always going to happen when these people hide amongst the people to shield themselves.


 


It's ugly and savage but necessary when you are fighting an opponent that isn't afraid to die and isn't constrained by western morality. There is no other sensible way to combat it.


 


You can't educate people who hate you with every fibre of their being. You can't reason with people who will blow themselves up gladly if it will kill you and as many other people as possible in return. You can't fight against people with kindness when they believe you are an infidel who is an affront to their god.


 


We are well beyond reason and a concerted military response is the only thing we can do to stop this.


 


It may not be a final solution to extremism - I suspect that will only happen as people finally do away with all forms of spiritual belief - but it will make the world safer in the interim while we all grow up.


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I don't think these forums are a good place to discuss politics, Going to open a can of wurms (No pun intended).


 


The sheeple need to wake up and realise that al queda and their offshoot counterpart Isis are a western construct, The US created, funded and armed them.


 


Need to look back about 4 years ago to the start of the syrian civil war, These dissidents were sent in to disrupt and undermine Bashar's regime because he did not want to bow down to western ideals imposed by the US like so many eastern countries have in the past.


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you are also forgetting something, there are millions of people living in those countries and only around 200k people are active military wise, not all of them want us to die, not all of them want war...

 

think about how it's split in "western" world also...how many people do we have in military? how many people don't want war? 

and what about all the refugees? do you think they are all here to kill us? that they hate us with everything they have? well...they sure will start hating us more and more the more families are being killed by us....

 

 

 

I don't think these forums are a good place to discuss politics, Going to open a can of wurms (No pun intended).

 

The sheeple need to wake up and realise that al queda and their offshoot counterpart Isis are a western construct, The US created, funded and armed them.

 

Need to look back about 4 years ago to the start of the syrian civil war, These dissidents were sent in to disrupt and undermine Bashar's regime because he did not want to bow down to western ideals imposed by the US like so many eastern countries have in the past.

 

 

yeah im aware of that, but just "not" talking about it, is not an option in my opinion...I was following media...i tried to figure out whats going on and the more I read and the more I see what people are talking about and what they choose to ignore, the more I get the feeling that too many people will just close their eyes and then when the going down and comes to us we are like "omg, I never thought this would happen! not to me!"
But then, every effort to do something about it might be too late....

Edited by Miretta

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I'm not forgetting that at all.


 


Few would argue that the majorigy of Muslims want us to die. We're talking about the so called Islamic State, not the other 1.5 billion Muslims. Few want to see a religious genocide going on.


 


We're talking about the extreemists, not the average everyday folks who just want to go about their lives in peace and safety. It's very specifically IS and not Islam at large that is the enemy here.


 


You can reason with Muslims. You can build bridges with Muslim nations. You don't need to fear or revile them because of their beliefs.


 


IS is another matter.


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You're forgetting the main point whereby these people want to kill you, your friends and everybody you ever loved because you are not one of them. That's the reason why we drop bombs and will continue to do so until they are gone. If we are attacked, we retaliate. If they attack again, we retaliate some more. We won't stop hitting them until they stop hitting us or are eliminated completely.

 

It's not ideal, but then again nothing is. Collateral damage is unfortunate but it's always going to happen when these people hide amongst the people to shield themselves.

 

It's ugly and savage but necessary when you are fighting an opponent that isn't afraid to die and isn't constrained by western morality. There is no other sensible way to combat it.

 

You can't educate people who hate you with every fibre of their being. You can't reason with people who will blow themselves up gladly if it will kill you and as many other people as possible in return. You can't fight against people with kindness when they believe you are an infidel who is an affront to their god.

 

We are well beyond reason and a concerted military response is the only thing we can do to stop this.

 

It may not be a final solution to extremism - I suspect that will only happen as people finally do away with all forms of spiritual belief - but it will make the world safer in the interim while we all grow up.

I would rather think of this... let's say America bombs Iraq for presumably they hide terrorists, lets ignore a bit wherever it is truth or not. Let's look on surrounding: people who were like us, doing theirs daily life. 

Then suddenly a bomb drop in theirs house, bearing the flag of USA. 

The bomb explode, killing everyone except a single person.

 

Pretty sure the person would think that they hasn't been doing a thing and wondering why they get bombed.

Then they will develop rationality that the USA are the evil ones.

Especially that they stay 'to rebuild' after they overthrow the gov.

 

I won't be surprised if this is what created ISIS.

I read once that they are provoking the world to bring them apocalypse.

They probably that desperate because they felt no more life on earth for em? 

 

Now then, to think of it, isn't mean we are on a devil circle? That the whole war won't stop until AT LEAST one country is fully dead? 

Would there be a way to solve this if we don't even fund war? 

Would it be far fetched if this was caused by energy shortage, and supposedly, while it is more gambling than occupying middle east, put war fund to this will solve better issues?

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Lord...


 


Where can one win when it's all insane?


 


EVERYONE needs to put it down.


 


EVERYONE.


 


There is no justification......none.


 


Practice feeling really small....it's the best you can do......because as small as you or I feel...we are FAR smaller.


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I don't know why I feel the urge to spread my thoughts about this or why exactly I was crying when I was seeing the news about france dropping bombs on syria....I was crying when i was seeing videos of families fleeing bombs and I was crying seeing what happened in paris...I am shocked by all those things happening...by people who spread fear about how every refugee we are taking in, is a potential danger for everyone...I'm shocked by the media mostly reporting the way that it seems war is justified and right and we are fighting the "evil" ones....


I'm shocked by those videos about children being beheaded, people being ######, families fleeing from bombs and if taking all the names out of it, all the generalizations to point it towards a specific group it's humans killing humans....it's human causing other humans suffering...it's death...it's insanity...


and I don't understand why.....


I have never experienced war and there is a part in me hoping that a war would happen only for maybe humans growing closer and more wiser out of it, but I'm afraid that it's just a dream and that the moment everyone forgets about how horrible the war is, that we will have another one....and another one....


where does it end?


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Nobody likes war but when you are facing fanaticism you can't just sit by and wish it away. When facing an unrelenting and merciless enemy you have to pick the lessor of two evils. Inactivity of governments allows the rise of Hitlers and Bin Ladens. Sometimes good intentions backfire and create monsters like IS. Either way there is a clear and present threat and it has to be dealt with, even more so if it's a monster of our own creating.


 


It's not like we can all just walk away ..


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Nobody likes war but when you are facing fanaticism you can't just sit by and wish it away. When facing an unrelenting and merciless enemy you have to pick the lessor of two evils. Inactivity of governments allows the rise of Hitlers and Bin Ladens. Sometimes good intentions backfire and create monsters like IS. Either way there is a clear and present threat and it has to be dealt with, even more so if it's a monster of our own creating.


 


It's not like we can all just walk away ..




but you bring up exactly one of the issues i mentioned! why black and white? why does no war, mean that we do nothing? why means no war and violence "inactivity"?


 


we are smarter than that, but it seems that we rather spend time on something we know, no matter how violent and cruel, than to try something new


 


"Hermann Göring described, during an interview at the Nuremberg Trials, how denouncing and outlawing pacifism was an important part of the Nazis' seizure of power: "The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country."


 


we need to start thinking for ourselves not just repeat memorized "knowledge" about how wars are being stopped.


I mean after thousands of years fighting wars with war, where are we know? when did war bring peace? when did it actually "solve" anything?


 


war is just the means of trying to get rid of something fast and "uncomplicated", but war doesn't stop war, it never did, it just prolongs and pushes the hate into the future, it just causes people to submit/give up, it doesn't make anyone understand! and when there is no understanding, it will just happen again!


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You can't have peace with an unreasonable enemy. You can stop fighting and pour all those war resources into education, better intelligence gathering (which inevitably leads to more erosion of civil liberties in order to better protect you) but that doesn't mean the other guy will stop trying to hurt you. And when they inevitably find cracks in the armour and exploit them you'll find society will not turn the other cheek when it's continually zipping up body bags filled with their young people out for a coffee or watching a rock concert.


 


Western society may not have much stomach left for foreign wars due to the last two decades actions but we are directly threatened now by people who will not stop regardless of whether we are involving ourselves in Middle Eastern affairs or not. And just for example say they did - then what? Get used to more of the same happening in Iraq and Syria and beyond. Is inaction going to make things worse for the people we are trying to help? Can we sit by and do nothing while Assad uses chemical weapons on his own people? Do we need more Kurdish villages gassed in Iraq? What about more abductions by Boko Haram or Rwandan genocides?


 


Lets think about what could happen further down the line. IS spreads through regional and international inactivity and makes inroads to Russia. How long is it going to be before they get their hands on cold war era nuclear devices and start blowing up entire cities?


 


When did war bring peace? When it killed the other guy. And then the next one and the next.


 


The real trick is using war sparingly and only when not going to war leads to greater losses. I think in the case of IS who ######, murder, abduct and enslave not going to war is an even greater tragedy.


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Someone who believes in something that pushes them to blow themselves and innocent people up should be killed before they have the chance to do so. (And believes they are 100% justified and moral in doing so)


That's hardly a moral issue or 'touchy subject'...someone tries to kill you, you kill them first. They've tried taking your rights as a human away, so therefore they forfeit theirs.


 


War isn't the solution, you're right. But right now, there isn't much else can be done in the short term, both to make people 'feel' safe and also show that something is being done about it.


 


But these people are beyond reason.


 


That is why a peaceful solution cannot be found with them.


Someone crazy enough to believe in what they do isn't likely to be swayed by calm debate and logical resolution/compromise that benefits everyone.


 


These people have been at constant war for thousands of years. It isn't the last 50 years that have caused this situation...not to say it hasn't shifted their focus on us a bit more, but they've been fighting each other for millennia. That's why they are in the position they are in and their countries are the way they are. They are stuck in a blood feud over reasons that are insane. It has been and will continue to be an endless cycle until 1 side wins over the other, as they are quite literally ready to fight till death over it.


 


It also isn't just the 'West' that are tackling it. Russia is prepared for war and therefore so must we. We may be pseudo-allies right now, fighting a common enemy, however if/once Russia gets a foothold in the middle east, in control of the massive wealth and oilfields contained within, who is to say they are going to stop there or remain so amicable?


 


 


TL;DR Can't fight crazy with logic and reason.


Edited by Outlaw

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 Sometimes good intentions backfire and create monsters like IS.

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Doesn't really matter what created the mess now, too late to change that. (Just as long as we learn and don't repeat it in future...lol as if that ever works)


 


What we need now are solutions.


Inviting a million refugees into Europe is not a solution...infact all that has done is make things worse. (Created huge tension between 'natives' and refugees/all middle eastern people)


Bombing 'ISIS' probably isn't going to be much of a solution either. They aren't a regular army/country...you can't just take out their leaders and have the rest crumble.


Invading Syria wont do much either I feel, other than waste a lot of time and money. Again, you can't just remove their leader and win.


 


I'm not even going to pretend I know of a way to fix this, but right now, a temporary fix is better than nothing I feel.


Closing borders, bringing in the military and putting more police on the streets wont do anything other than make you feel safer anyway.


 


The only real way to stamp it out is the old 'see something, say something' policy...although due to the 'muslim ghettos' in places like Paris, I don't see this doing much either. (Many people, while not openly 'anti-west' wouldn't dare speak out against this sort of thing. Either through fear or they are in agreement with them but unwilling to actually do it themselves. Just look at the data from Charlie Hebdo...80% of muslims in Paris AGREED that they should have been prosecuted for insulting their religion...which is in complete opposition to fundamental 'western' ideology)


 


As for a WW3? No.


Cold War 2? Quite possibly.


 


Right now, we've got a pretty big mess concerning future actions between US, EU, NATO, UK, Russia, France etc. Everyone has different ideas, stances, solutions etc, even within the larger groups. UK wants to go on ahead without approval...Russia is doing its own thing regardless, France already bombing... there's no cohesion or plan.


There's a lot of wealth and resources to be fought over and claimed...don't think it'll be without a fight.


Edited by Outlaw

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Nobody deliberately creates something with the intention of that creation turning on it's creator.


 


I'm so sick of the conspiracy theories running around from armchair politicians happy to lay the blame for all of this at the feet of western governments claiming it's all done for profiteering, oil, control etc. That kind of thinking is a luxury the freedoms you enjoy as citizens of those governments allow that the dictatorships, fanatics and mentally deranged of the world use to justify mass murder, terrorism and enslavement would murder you in your beds for uttering.


 


This is exactly what goes on when the west sits idly by and doesn't raise a hand.


 


Clearly the rise of IS and extremist movements like it are the result of a gung ho western mentality that begun with removal of Saddam Hussain but failed to properly address and manage the aftermath but it was done (however misguided in hindsight) to preserve the lives of innocent people, not because we wanted to sell guns, get cheaper oil or force democracy on the region.


 


As immoral as some aspects of our western governments may be we are certainly not the bad guys here. At worst we may be described as arrogant for believing our morality superiority would be welcomed and embraced once we had freed people from the yoke of dictatorships.


 


Well, that backfired and we've paid for it. That doesn't mean we should stop trying to do the right thing especially now as the blurred lines are much better defined and we have a real evil to face off against.  


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Well, that backfired and we've paid for it.

Edited by Outlaw

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Nobody deliberately creates something with the intention of that creation turning on it's creator.

 

I'm so sick of the conspiracy theories running around from armchair politicians happy to lay the blame for all of this at the feet of western governments claiming it's all done for profiteering, oil, control etc. That kind of thinking is a luxury the freedoms you enjoy as citizens of those governments allow that the dictatorships, fanatics and mentally deranged of the world use to justify mass murder, terrorism and enslavement would murder you in your beds for uttering.

 

This is exactly what goes on when the west sits idly by and doesn't raise a hand.

 

Clearly the rise of IS and extremist movements like it are the result of a gung ho western mentality that begun with removal of Saddam Hussain but failed to properly address and manage the aftermath but it was done (however misguided in hindsight) to preserve the lives of innocent people, not because we wanted to sell guns, get cheaper oil or force democracy on the region.

 

As immoral as some aspects of our western governments may be we are certainly not the bad guys here. At worst we may be described as arrogant for believing our morality superiority would be welcomed and embraced once we had freed people from the yoke of dictatorships.

 

Well, that backfired and we've paid for it. That doesn't mean we should stop trying to do the right thing especially now as the blurred lines are much better defined and we have a real evil to face off against.  

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I bring it up because the terrorist apologists love to lay blame on the west for things like this. It's offensive and a disservice to the people fighting to make things better as well as the victims of terrorism.


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I bring it up because the terrorist apologists love to lay blame on the west for things like this. It's offensive and a disservice to the people fighting to make things better as well as the victims of terrorism.

 

Tbh, I think we should stop using the word 'terror/terrorist/terrorism'. It gives too much weight to their actions. Also, we shouldn't be terrified of them...not yet anyway. I mean, chances of being killed is so slim, more people die falling down their stairs at home every year.

 

Like I said earlier, they are attacking people who didn't even have anything to do with it. Doesn't matter if our governments did/did not provoke them etc...the people of Paris didn't do it. (Nor did they have the power to stop whatever their governments may or may not have done.)

I think it's pretty fair and morally justified to kill someone who killed an innocent bystander. Take someones rights away, you give yours up too. (Also the only way to stop someone doing it again)

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It has always been this way though has it not?, The Innocent pay the price for our misguided Goverments.


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I bring it up because the terrorist apologists love to lay blame on the west for things like this. It's offensive and a disservice to the people fighting to make things better as well as the victims of terrorism.

 

Busted i do not agree with a lot of what you're saying, To me you are just basing you're opinion on the propaganda that is been spoon fed to everyone in the media.

Plenty of information out there if you want to see the bigger picture.

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Busted i do not agree with a lot of what you're saying, To me you are just basing you're opinion on the propaganda that is been spoon fed to everyone in the media.

Plenty of information out there if you want to see the bigger picture.

 

Only thing is, you can never know who to trust. No one knows all the information and who is to say there isn't some form of 'butterfly effect' where some decision from 50 years ago in another country didn't spark it all and set things in motion. Not necessarily a small action but something seemingly unrelated, that ended up with favors being done, trades made and deals broken with people that ended up where we are today. Or 1 stray bullet/bomb in a conflict 20 years ago, killing someones father who then set out on revenge and in their blind rage, made rash decisions and ended up making a whole nation a target. Don't forget, the battle in the middle east has been raging for thousands of years...it's not like any of this should come as a surprise to anyone. We tried intervening, with relatively good intentions but we still end up 'the bad guys' because people cannot think logically when tragedy strikes them personally. It is a great fault in us humans that we generally fail to see the bigger picture and let our personal lives/experiences overshadow the 'greater good' for lack of a better phrase.

 

There are too many factors in play, a lot of which occur in secrecy and behind closed doors. (Not conspiracy theory, just how things work in business/politics) Plus, you never know someones true motivations and reasons either.

 

It's an extremely complex situation we find ourselves in, with a lot of moving pieces. The heated emotions and 'Us vs. Them' mentality don't help either, along with the whole 'don't talk about it, it makes me uncomfortable' and the whole 'say anything and you're an islamaphobe/conspiracy theorist/whatever'. The people who have the power to fix it, are forced to walk on eggshells or gamble their whole career/livelihood on seemingly small decisions...something not many people are prepared to do and even if they make the right decision, it probably wont be the popular decision and will end up negatively affecting them anyway. 

Edited by Outlaw

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Busted i do not agree with a lot of what you're saying, To me you are just basing you're opinion on the propaganda that is been spoon fed to everyone in the media.

Plenty of information out there if you want to see the bigger picture.

 

That's fine, I don't need you to agree with any part of what I'm saying That's what being permitted to express an opinion safely in a western democracy allows. Unlike, say, in certain other parts of the world where saying such things gets you burned to death in a cage or forced to marry at age 12 or if you're really lucky, just lose your hands.

 

To me you are basing your opinions churned out by anti establishment blow hards who unappreciative of the freedoms their home nations allow them decide to attack and criticise their elected officials because it's safe, easy and rebellious to do so without any consequences whatsoever.

 

The vast majority of people don't think their government is evil or wrong most of the time. That's why we elect them. Sometimes they do things we don't fully understand or appreciate at the time by you tend to find democracies work towards the betterment of the nation as a whole despite what the outraged left or liberal types may tell you.

 

Regardless, you or I have little say in what transpires so our feelings on touchy matters like this mean little when those same elected officials already have the approval to govern on our behalf. So we leave it upto them to make the best possible decisions for all of us. Most of the time they get it right. When they don't, we vote them out.

 

I understand people don't generally enjoy war and the associated killing of others, but when it comes down to it when one side is hell bent on murder and mayhem I'd rather my government did something more substantive about it than blog their opinions online or make snarky facebook posts.

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Everyone is guilty of some crime and say it was justified. But really there are two options. 1. You either just lay down and beg for peace and take the casualties that you take. 2 you go in to win and kill anyone that fly's that flag or in this case is of that religion. To fight a monster you become one and if you not willing to do what it takes to win, you will just die. Its the sad truth but it is exactly that the truth. Not all Muslims are bs but the religion is or at least the way most people see it. Sure not all are fighting but when people get together and chant death to America and burn flags , or kill innocent kids they just stand there and go with it. There for they are all bad and just as guilty as the other. You burn them and any man woman or chip that stand with them and you don't stop until there are no more cities or people openly saying they are Muslim. But to commit to this you would have to go through with it because once you start there is no stopping and turning around. Either way god help us all

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Only thing is, you can never know who to trust. No one knows all the information and who is to say there isn't some form of 'butterfly effect' where some decision from 50 years ago in another country didn't spark it all and set things in motion. Not necessarily a small action but something seemingly unrelated, that ended up with favors being done, trades made and deals broken with people that ended up where we are today. Or 1 stray bullet/bomb in a conflict 20 years ago, killing someones father who then set out on revenge and in their blind rage, made rash decisions and ended up making a whole nation a target. Don't forget, the battle in the middle east has been raging for thousands of years...it's not like any of this should come as a surprise to anyone. We tried intervening, with relatively good intentions but we still end up 'the bad guys' because people cannot think logically when tragedy strikes them personally. It is a great fault in us humans that we generally fail to see the bigger picture and let our personal lives/experiences overshadow the 'greater good' for lack of a better phrase.

 

There are too many factors in play, a lot of which occur in secrecy and behind closed doors. (Not conspiracy theory, just how things work in business/politics) Plus, you never know someones true motivations and reasons either.

 

It's an extremely complex situation we find ourselves in, with a lot of moving pieces. The heated emotions and 'Us vs. Them' mentality don't help either, along with the whole 'don't talk about it, it makes me uncomfortable' and the whole 'say anything and you're an islamaphobe/conspiracy theorist/whatever'. The people who have the power to fix it, are forced to walk on eggshells or gamble their whole career/livelihood on seemingly small decisions...something not many people are prepared to do and even if they make the right decision, it probably wont be the popular decision and will end up negatively affecting them anyway. 

 

that is why I'm mainly asking questions ALOT of them, since our brain is pretty good in finding contradictions, so reading whatever is out there no matter what, as much as one can and digest, just helps to find the truth. 

In my opinion, people need to start thinking for themselves...it doesn't really matter to what conclusions people come through that, but I'm feeling certain that if people allow themselves to think beyond of what we are being told to think and if we are willing to question everything we know and believe that we will come to similar conclusions....

 

I'm not talking here to tell everyone to hate Governments...or to hate war...or to be this and that, I want to know what people think, I want to know how people feel about it, I want to know alot of different viewpoints, so i can make my own image of this world and the people in it....

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