Sign in to follow this  
Miretta

Is there gonna be a world war 3?

Recommended Posts

Nobody likes war but when you are facing fanaticism you can't just sit by and wish it away. When facing an unrelenting and merciless enemy you have to pick the lessor of two evils. Inactivity of governments allows the rise of Hitlers and Bin Ladens. Sometimes good intentions backfire and create monsters like IS. Either way there is a clear and present threat and it has to be dealt with, even more so if it's a monster of our own creating.

 

It's not like we can all just walk away ..

 

From what I've seen on the news and in discussions on radio etc., the idea of just dropping bombs for years doesn't exactly make IS "go away"...   saying "we have to do it" seems silly, especially when our offensive military actions (in a war that's been growing and evolving with seemingly no clear-cut solutions to end it) continue to give the people we are attacking a reason to shift towards extremism.

 

Put yourself in the shoes of some 18-year old Syrian young man who lives in an area constantly bombarded by drone strikes, missiles, etc. from rebels, the government/military of their own nation, and government military of other nations.  What would you feel?  You'd be angry, and you'd want to fight back.  IS gives you that option.  Even without the intense propaganda spread by the terrorist groups, it's not hard to empathize with that desire for action fueled by hate towards injustice.  God knows what other reasons they may have as well, this is just one.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That young Syrian you are talking about is caught between a rock and a hard place. He's got his choice of people to blame for his situation, not least of which is Assad or IS. He can blame them for whats happening or lash out at the West and join the very people that's caused the suffering. His choice.


 


I'd like to think the average Syrian male isn't a complete idiot and can work out for himself who's at fault. Is it the government that's bombing him, IS that's bombing him or the West that bombing him? What are the reasons? Should he side with his government that a good number of his peers have rebelled against because of it's atrocious rule or join up with the medieval IS who murder, plunder and deprive? Maybe join one of the various rebel forces fighting against Assad and IS now being bombed by Russia?


 


Or think maybe, screw this, I'm heading to Turkey because Assad's still in power, IS is still advancing and Western policy isn't doing the job it intended because it's not putting troops on the ground to secure the region in a way only an organised army can.


 


There aren't many compelling or genuine reasons for a young Syrian male of reasonable intelligence to join IS despite what the doomsayers and fear mongers tell us. Theres always going to be some that can be recruited for whatever reason but most reasonable people would see the difference between supporting genuine opposition to Assads rule and the monsters in the east clawing at the gates.


 


Those that can get away generally do and we've seen that over the last few months. They may not embrace the West with open arms but they know the difference between us and them is significant enough to flood Europe rather than stay and die or sign up with the immoral and evil.


 


As you said, bombing isn't having the desired effect. We all know this and the West (even thought things are now complicated with Russia) are building domestic support to send troops in on the ground in order to finish the fight the way it needs to be done.


 


It will happen .. it's just a case of when. My guess, by March next year we'll start seeing the first coalition land deployments after months of squabbling with the Russians to decide upon safe ROI's and defined areas of operation to operate in. I expect we'll see ourselves in the extreme east of Syria and Iraq leaving the Russians to hold the middle ground to bolster Assad. This will no doubt be a concession to "allow" the West to do the job properly without fear of Russian interference or risk of accidental incidents.


 


Syria is well on it's way to becoming the 21st centuries centre for the next cold war.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Syria is well on it's way to becoming the 21st centuries centre for the next cold war.

 

And major cities world wide are well on their way to becoming the 21 centuries centres for the ongoing hot one.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd like to think the average Syrian male isn't a complete idiot and can work out for himself who's at fault. Is it the government that's bombing him, IS that's bombing him or the West that bombing him? What are the reasons? Should he side with his government that a good number of his peers have rebelled against because of it's atrocious rule or join up with the medieval IS who murder, plunder and deprive? Maybe join one of the various rebel forces fighting against Assad and IS now being bombed by Russia?

 

Seriously? You are giving people WAY, WAAAAY too much credit with that one.

Just look around yourself and notice the idiotic way people here act...and people here have a 'decent' education and upbringing that is much, much more tolerant of 'free independent thought'.

 

The problem here is, these people grow up with their parents/societies views being beaten into them from an early age...quite literally beaten into them for the most part.

The few that do think for themselves, can't. They simply can't. Why would they risk what little they have and also face persecution (read that as public execution) if others find out they don't 'conform'.

(Look at the stories of girls own familys mutilating or killing them for sleeping with or marrying the wrong man etc Or men being executed for being gay or being seen giving information to authorities)

 

If you were in their shoes, you wouldn't choose the 'rational' answer...for them, the rational answer is to do whatever is expected of them, because anything else is practically suicide.

 

You cannot expect people to act against their own self interests...almost no one ever does and the few that do are generally regarded as 'crazy folk' until long after their death.

Edited by Outlaw

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Most peoples self interests involve survival. Staying while you're being bombed by your government or killed by IS taking over your home territory isn't a compelling reason to side with them. Not for the majority at any rate. Most choose to flee rather than fight, regardless to their personal viewpoints on matters.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Most peoples self interests involve survival. Staying while you're being bombed by your government or killed by IS taking over your home territory isn't a compelling reason to side with them. Not for the majority at any rate. Most choose to flee rather than fight, regardless to their personal viewpoints on matters.

have you even read about it that isis is trying to shoot everyone who tries to flee? there is a reason why many refugees tried to cross the sea instead of going land route...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

“They're in love. f####k the war.â€
― Thomas Pynchon

 

this !
speaking of my brother who will marry his syrian muslime wife in 2 weeks. :wub:

Edited by noermel

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

congratz for your brother :)

 

 

on another note, something that was sparked while reading some youtube comments "pro-war":

 

I'm honestly interested if anyone feels comfortable killing humans? (because apparently we have a problem with other humans killing humans, which we take a s a reason to kill them or so?)

If we can say that we don't feel comfortable with killing humans and thats a fact, would we also prefer it that Isis just puts down their weapons and stops fighting us and just stops oppressing, torturing etc.?

 

so after making clear what we want: we don't want people killing other people, we don't want them to torture and stop taking their religion as an excuse to hit their wives, kill their children etc.

that seems common agreement I think...

 

so what if there is an option to reach that?

 

I know we feel helpless and like we don't have the power to do that, we feel as if we are too small to matter in such a big "playfield"...

 

why? 

 

why do we feel like we are not useful? like we can't do anything?

and why am I not reading anywhere that something else was tried to make isis stop? is there just no media about it? is it not sensationalistic enough? or did I just miss it? (if someone can link something that would be great)

 

I feel weak and small and insignificant, I openly admit that. I feel as if I can't do anything about those people dying in war...and yes I would probably feel less helpless if someone would give me a gun and I would shoot those people myself that I think are causing the issue, but would it change anything really?

I honestly think, it would just make me FEEL stronger and more powerful, but in the end I would have had the same power as before....I wouldn't have changed the way those people think...I wouldn't have changed anyones mind to actually understand and support me in my own believes....in worst case I would have made myself more enemies than before....people who don't understand what I'm fighting for, people whose family members I just shot for no reason (because they didnt understand it)

They will rage and most likely atleast one of them will now try to kill me and thinking similar to me that it's his right, because in his world, I did it for no reason....

 

When I was a child...I had fights with my brother....we were fighting pretty hard, pulling hair, slapping each other, sometimes even banging our heads against a wall....and every time I raged and wanted to do something harder to him than he did to me, it just came harder back to me, because he then raged even more at me...usually it ended with someone crying and feeling guilty and sorry and not knowing what just happened and what we were even fighting about...

we were working together when someone was against us or one of us, if it was from the outside, since we decided that we are brother and sister and we have to take care of each other...and protect each other...

and you know what? After so many years I'm still banging my head against his (more mentally now) and I can't really figure out how to deal with him...

 

so...why? how can it be that we think we are so civilized and technology is so advanced, but for such a substantial problem that is related to communication and understanding....how can it be that we are not able to find a solution for that? find a solution to actually de-escalate?

How can we start thinking in that direction even, when we are being teached from every direction, that it's practically impossible?

Why are we not even experimenting with it? like heck! go and throw a bunch of flowers all over syria?

Why are we not trying anything crazy? if we are actually all disliking war...if we dislike killing people....if we dislike hate and torture....
why aren't we doing something else then?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

...how can it be that we are not able to find a solution for that? find a solution to actually de-escalate?

..

No solution can be found, when the warring factions don't want to find a solution. They still think they can win(all of the factions in Syria). Peace talks begin only, when they realize there is nothing more to win, or someone starts losing so much ground, that they are forced to peace negotiations, so they can keep at least something... or only one side remains and annihilates everyone else.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No solution can be found, when the warring factions don't want to find a solution. They still think they can win(all of the factions in Syria). Peace talks begin only, when they realize there is nothing more to win, or someone starts losing so much ground, that they are forced to peace negotiations, so they can keep at least something... or only one side remains and annihilates everyone else.

what about the people who currently are not participating? (and also, what does winning in war terms mean even? if not either anhilliation or submission or negotiations?)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

what about the people who currently are not participating? (and also, what does winning in war terms mean even? if not either anhilliation or submission or negotiations?)

Winning - who gets upper hand and comes to power in Syria..

And people who currently are not participating.. i think that says it all, they are not participating :) If you aren't participating in something, how can you affect the outcome?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Winning - who gets upper hand and comes to power in Syria..

And people who currently are not participating.. i think that says it all, they are not participating :) If you aren't participating in something, how can you affect the outcome?

I was asking it, because you said that peace can only happen if one of those warring factions are wanting it, which I assumed means, it doesn't matter if anyone else would want them to stop.

 

and then about the winning a war...so it's not about stopping them to kill people, but to replace their power?

so...it wouldn't matter if Isis would stop killing people...

Edited by Miretta

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was asking it, because you said that peace can only happen if one of those warring factions are wanting it, which I assumed means, it doesn't matter if anyone else would want them to stop.

 

and then about the winning a war...so it's not about stopping them to kill people, but to replace their power?

All would have to want to stop the war, not just one faction. You understand, peace should be more lucrative to everyone involved, than continuous fighting.

I dont understand that part: "so it's not about stopping them to kill people, but to replace their power". Wars aren't started with the goal to just kill many people. There is always something to achieve.. and everyone, who gets in the way, will be killed. That's how it is. So you can go there and say "hey, you have killed enough, lets go home now guys".

Edited by rixk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

All would have to want to stop the war, not just one faction. You understand, peace should be more lucrative to everyone involved, than continuous fighting.

I dont understand that part: "so it's not about stopping them to kill people, but to replace their power". Wars aren't started with the goal to just kill many people. There is always something to achieve.. and everyone, who gets in the way, will be killed. That's how it is. So you can go there and say "hey, you have killed enough, lets go home now guys".

not sure if you were reading the whole post then, when you were quoting only one sentence from it...

 

I meant that the current war is being justified by saying that it is necessary to stop isis killing and torturing and oppressing people down there....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

not sure if you were reading the whole post then, when you were quoting only one sentence from it...

 

I meant that the current war is being justified by saying that it is necessary to stop isis killing and torturing and oppressing people down there....

I was quoting mainly the end part, where you wanted asked for options to just de-escalate the conflict. And that is what this war is about, either we go there and stop ISIS, or we let ISIS spread (of course for french there is also some inner politics aspect, that people want revenge, so they get their revenge so to say). Either we participate in the conflict or not, but otherwise we have no option to affect the outcome.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I know we feel helpless and like we don't have the power to do that, we feel as if we are too small to matter in such a big "playfield"...

 

why? 

 

why do we feel like we are not useful? like we can't do anything?

 

I feel weak and small and insignificant, I openly admit that. I feel as if I can't do anything about those people dying in war...and yes I would probably feel less helpless if someone would give me a gun and I would shoot those people myself that I think are causing the issue, but would it change anything really?

I honestly think, it would just make me FEEL stronger and more powerful, but in the end I would have had the same power as before....I wouldn't have changed the way those people think...I wouldn't have changed anyones mind to actually understand and support me in my own believes....in worst case I would have made myself more enemies than before....people who don't understand what I'm fighting for, people whose family members I just shot for no reason (because they didnt understand it)

They will rage and most likely atleast one of them will now try to kill me and thinking similar to me that it's his right, because in his world, I did it for no reason....

 

so...why? how can it be that we think we are so civilized and technology is so advanced, but for such a substantial problem that is related to communication and understanding....how can it be that we are not able to find a solution for that? find a solution to actually de-escalate?

How can we start thinking in that direction even, when we are being teached from every direction, that it's practically impossible?

Why are we not even experimenting with it? like heck! go and throw a bunch of flowers all over syria?

Why are we not trying anything crazy? if we are actually all disliking war...if we dislike killing people....if we dislike hate and torture....

why aren't we doing something else then?

 

I'm sorry for shortening your quote but I wanted to give my answer in a more general sense.

 

You are right about the feeling of helplessness, the feeling itself is false though. The problem is the disconnection between people in our society. Just as an example, if every person on this planet who's against war would refuse to go to work until the governments work out a peaceful solution, everything would freeze. That is the only kind of leverage big enough these days but at the first sign of it being organised, the governments would act against it.

 

And true, just shooting people doesn't solve things, it often makes it worse as those people become martyrs but sometimes it becomes necessary. If you try to reason with psychopaths, you will lose. Throwing flowers at IS is a nice thought but I doubt it would accomplish anything. The Native Americans were too friendly for their own good and we know how that turned out.

 

As far as being civilized goes, we act like we are because it serves us at the moment but we're still no different from the other animals on this planet. There's a reason why hard times are such a good test of character. Technology makes people lazy, try living like your grandparents used to for a week, that is hard :D The more we take things for granted, the less we appreciate their true value.

 

I still think there's hope for mankind though :) the number of good people still outweighs the bad but it takes two to tango and find a solution.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

one of the reasons why I talk to people about this is that I think it will change something, not that it will stop the war, but that, if I atleast help, making people talk about it, think about it, confront it, that it's moving more than just watching the news and rant all by myself how I think war is useless.


 


I'm happy that this conversation didn't just turn out into a: "I'am right! shut up!" and "no I am right!" add alot of profanities etc. but that people here actually try to discuss the subject.


That means alot to me...this is what I wanted, talk about it, not looking away, not ignoring what happens.


 


so yeah...every opinion is welcome, even if I don't like an opinion (I don't have to like it and I may get upset by some peoples opinion) , but that doesn't mean that such an opinion would be less worth in any way :)


  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Miretta said:

 

I'm happy that this conversation didn't just turn out into a: "I'am right! shut up!" and "no I am right!" add alot of profanities etc. but that people here actually try to discuss the subject.

That means alot to me...this is what I wanted, talk about it, not looking away, not ignoring what happens.

 

 

I'm glad you started this thread as well. I've read some very interesting points by people that I don't necessarily agree with but I do respect them and they've given me something to think about. I'm convinced that we are all capable of more than we think as long as we keep an open mind and heart.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Personally the real question is not if there is going to be WWIII, rather a question of when.

 

Not to mention something usually attributed to Einstein: I don't know with what weapons WWIII will be fought with... I only know WWIV will be fought with sticks and stones.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

heh here's another quote from around the same time period as einstein, maybe there was a global opinion about how ww3 and 4 would go down.

 

'The next war will be fought with atom bombs and the one after that with spears'. Urey, Harold (1893-1981)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, lawurm said:

heh here's another quote from around the same time period as einstein, maybe there was a global opinion about how ww3 and 4 would go down.

 

'The next war will be fought with atom bombs and the one after that with spears'. Urey, Harold (1893-1981)

 

I think it was pretty clear what would happen once they set off the first nuke, this was Oppenheimer's take on it:

 

Quote

“We knew the world would not be the same. A few people laughed, a few people cried. Most people were silent. I remembered the line from the Hindu scripture, the Bhagavad-Gita; Vishnu is trying to persuade the Prince that he should do his duty, and to impress him, takes on his multi-armed form and says, 'Now I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds.' I suppose we all thought that, one way or another.”

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this