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Propheteer

Merge Epic Cluster + Freedom Cluster

Merge Epic + Freedom?  

326 members have voted

  1. 1. Merge Epic + Freedom



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Put down the beer.  He is saying do nothing to Epic.  If they want to move, they can sell their Epic account as it is now and buy one on chaos so they can play on chaos.

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1 minute ago, SmeJack said:

So we sell some crappy account that has had its skills all cut in half? Do you wanna buy it?

 

Well no, I already have an account on chaos. Not to mention the fact that I do not want he change to go through because I feel it is extremely unfair on the epic population. 

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This vote means nothing. Only votes that should even be counted are people who would have accounts directly effected.

And for the record i would would find a new game before i went back to Chaos.

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Unless they are taking Chaos and cutting it off from the rest of freedom, everyone's account is directly affected.  Perhaps it won't hurt some as much as others but they will be affected.

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Only way I would see is merging both mapes into a big one and giving the entire new map a combined ruleset.

 

There are 2 distinct kind of people in wurm.

 

Worldshapers and Service providers. Service providers live on their skills, Their capital and motivation are their skills. They are not locally bound and can travel anywhere and in a quick time redo what they need, high ql tools, on which enchantings may be put on. They do what they can and its not bound to a local area.

 

But the Worldshapers are those who create something they are connected to (not just gyus doing adigging job or minign job). Their deed, their buildings their unique location on the server. They pu time and passion into it to amke it look exactly like this. The world they shaped is what they are connected to. And you can not transport this to somewhere else. And it can not be done again without again a HUGE effort in time, because no matter how high your skills are, fining the same location is impossible, and reshaping an entire area into the same takes just extremely long. Given this is even possible.

 

And depending on how much of the worldshaper a wurmian is in his mind, it will define how much you take from him every time you shut down a server no matter for what reason. Because this is lost once and for all unlike anything else that can simply be crafted or bought again.

 

 

Edited by PWreset
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I'am type of Worldshaper but I think merging both pvp communities is worth of me losing everything I built.

 

Besides, Worldshapers love to terraform and build. New serwer makes new possibilities for it, new places, starting fresh. For Me it is exciting.

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On 11/25/2015, 10:30:38, Propheteer said:

 

what?

 

like 99% of the votes are actual people. Just because it isn't want you want and just because you may not recognize the name doesn't make it any less valid.

 

Maybe if we can bind it to a personally identifying piece of information, for one vote per actual person and not premium account :)

 

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I'd think holding multiple premium accounts is like holding multiple shares in a company.

Those who invested more have more of a say. You might say Pay2Win but sometimes that's how things are.

 

But like Proph said, voting with premium toons or individual persons, it won't make a huge difference. 

Edited by Banzai

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No matter what for either side voting will never be fair, forums or ingame or what

 

The only true results to judge by are the end results of the big change.  Such as how everyone voting yes for map reset said resetting ele's map is what epic needed except it fixed nothing.  Sorry a short term population boom does not label anything as fixed.  Sure this is different because its forcing all the pvpers into one server, but this will never happen properly at all without a chaos map reset, and no matter the option people will quit, just like some did when ele was reset.  I'm not a fan of throwing "solutions" at things that result in people quitting and short term population booms to only be back to square one in a few months

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I just don't see a way for this to work because it will never be zero-sum.  I do not see any way they can "convert" the Epic players to non-Epic in such a way that all of those will be retained.  In thinking about the options, I see these challenges to this idea (sorry if this rambles a bit, it's late):

 

1.  You can't just plug Epic onto a server boundary -- the skill grind is different, the economies are different,  plus you have duplicate characters.  The only possible way to reconcile the character side is to duplicate with a name adjustment -- but you are still left with the economy problem.  To the many posts about "Just link to Chaos" -- those are folks who don't know ship travel works =)  If you say "Epic transfers naked" to solve the economic problem then you just lost those players you were trying to bring over.  Remember, this only works if at the end Epic can be shutdown.  So you're saying "move over w/ skill reduction, loss of all the items you have -- or leave Wurm."  For those who spent actual money for things they would lose, they will likely leave.  Leaving Epic "up" after this transfer doesn't solve the problem you presented.  Also, how many of the players on Epic also have premium non-Epic accounts they run concurrently?  I know some play on Epic but have prem-alts on Freedom holding deeds and such so the loss of the Epic players by this forced migration will not be a 1:1 loss of players/revenue.

 

2.  Chaos specifically, you have the "where will the refugees go" problem.  As discussed prior, they would either need to flood into existing kingdoms (which may cause a short term burst of activity as borders shift due to some zerging) or form new PMKs which then face the same short-term activity burst.  20 Pages here have talked about how the Epic migrants will have skill disadvantages so I don't think they would be able to easily push into existing territory.  Let's say 45 of those Epic players stay and come into Chaos in these scenarios.  If they join any of the existing kingdoms you have Zergdom.  Yes, you might get some good battles but only if the players themselves want to be balanced and they won't -- and that assumes they pass the join/acceptance criteria of those kingdoms.  Start new kingdoms?  That only happens if the chaos map changes.  See #4 below.  It would be hard for a set of new PMKs to all come in at once especially with diminished skilled players.  But hey...I'm sure they can find some great real estate in the south and MR may likely establish a safe zone for them in exchange for 50-60 affinities.

 

3.  Chaos map reset?  See the initial part.  Large numbers of people would just throw up their hands and the result is not the increased density you are seeking.  Oh, and can you imagine the pirate battles as people attempt to get their gear off Chaos ahead of the reset?  That's about the only interesting quirk of that option; however, that same pirate war would likely cause people to just find their next MMOG (again multiple accounts).

 

4.  A variation of the Chaos map reset is a chaos map expansion -- if that is even possible.  Expand the map N, S, and W, add islands/more land-mass with starting points for all of the epic kingdoms which they would "appear" at.  While this would retain the current Chaos base and potentially give the converted Epicutians an opportunity to build, now you have other hurdles like the HOTA location, the WL/BL locations, etc.  When you consider the loss of player base from the conversion, these refugees may not even be able to survive long enough to setup -- and you again have the duplicate account problem especially if they currently play on both Epic and chaos.

 

If the problem is one of population density on Epic, the solution may be to shrink the maps there.  Maybe get rid of the home servers and have just Elevation since you describe a pvp-everywhere cluster anyway, why not just reduce it to a single server ala Chaos on Freedom?  I think your assumption that people want to be closer together is flawed.  I can see this as true for some in a PVP world who want to quickly get into a fight; however, many Freedom players choose low population servers specifically to build without obstruction, gather resources without competition, hunt, etc.  Maybe this is the reason the 90 on Epic are spread across the home server and elevation?

Edited by DrB
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btw most of the epic players are very experienced and are more than capable of striking out on their own even with a skill nerf.

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they just need to remove homeservers, starter towns, and template kingdoms from epic and problem solved.

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Propheteer, I didn't mean to imply that they were incapable of striking out simply that it would not be 100% willing to move over and have to regrind skills, rebuild their item inventories, etc.  For those that remain in-game, my guess is that some would want to make their own PMKs and try to establish on Chaos.  Others would join existing Chaos kingdoms.  Still others would just shift over to non-Chaos servers.  It isn't simply a "there is always 90 on Epic, so that would add 90 to Chaos."  It might only add 10 to Chaos with 10 to Deli, 10 to Exo, 15 to Xanadu, and the remainder never being seen again.  Plus, how many of those 90 online are second/third/fifth accounts logged in just to spread the alarm if there is an attack versus being truly productive players?  

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Sorry I'm so late to this topic, and I don't know if this has already been brought up - I've been away from Wurm for a few months, but I have issue with this and it's why I voted no:

 

For those who dont understand how skillgain works on epic, heres a speedguide.

 

Lets say 50 actual woodcutting = 71 woodcutting on the curve.

 

For the sake of simplicity, lets say that at fifty woodcutting one tick on freedom is .2 in size, and lets also say that you get a tick one in three actions.

 

Now, lets say at 71 woodcutting on chaos, you get a tick 1 in 6 actions.

 

On epic, if you had 50 woodcutting and were grinding, you would get .2 * 2, one in six actions.

 

Why? Because you get 2x the tick size, but you get it at the frequency of the curved skill. So at 90 skill, you are grinding while getting the ticks at the same rate you would get if you had 99+.

 

Early on this means its easier, later on it means its harder. Its pretty simple really if you did any hardcore grinding beyond a certain point.

I just don't hold with that last statement. I've seen some of the skillsets of top Epic players, and of top Freedom/Chaos accounts and how long those accounts have been playing, and if it was harder for Epic accounts from 90+, it would take just as long for Epic accounts to reach 100 as for the other cluster. I have seen relatively young (a couple of years) Epic accounts with far more 99+ skills than Freedom accounts which have been worked hard for 6 or 7 years.

 

Skillgain on Epic is increased. However increasing the difficulty a little due to the curve is not enough to offset the increase in tick sizes.

 

Personally I would also be more concerned with all of those accounts that have gained to quite high levels (70 to 85+ or so) in quite a lot of skills relatively easily (I know mine is one of them) - FAR more easily than had that account done it on the Freedom cluster.

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On 11/22/2015, 12:51:35, LorenaMontana said:

Stop ur short term thinking proph, even games like Destiny have a low pop atm with the release of fallout 4 and such.

 

Epic and Freedom wont die. And hopefully wont merge either.

 

Destiny is ###### and year one was just a paid beta kinda like wurm topkek

 

also MR complaining about alts lol

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On 25-11-2015 15:52:41, MaurizioAM said:

Now lets talk about this convert. Lets assume everyone is either forced through it or everyone accepts it on their own but everyone would be affected. Those players with 90 skill in certain skills, although the skill gain is x2 that would make your converted skill 45. I can honestly say that wouldnt work nor would that be fair. Looking at the example of skill gains above it seems the curve affects the x2 and its not a straight forward 100% skill gain difference but perhaps retaining 75% of your skills from epic. So someone with 99 will come over with 74. Yes it hurts a bit but this is a choice that has to be made the fact the people chose to play on seperate cluster and now those same people want to play on freedom well there has to be a compromise. If you already have higher then 75% of your epic skill on freedom you will retain the higher of the 2 calculations. 

[ one thing to keep in mind some skills like weapon smithing and meditation should probably have a different percentage]

 

I think look at a Precentage of the current skill is a bad way to make the convert.

 

I don't know how exactly the skills are listed in the database so i'm giving a example here of what i THINK it works like.

 

In the code you see some skills like Prospecting have "2000" value. Other skills have 3000,4000,20000, 150000,200000.

 

I assume that the higher you get the harder it gets to reach this "2000" value?. (ticks get smaller).

 

Lets say it would usually take 50k seconds to reach 100 skill on a 2000 it would take 25k seconds on epic. 

 

 

 

---------------

 

Yes it has been explained Hordern.

 

 

If we would take mining as example, its twice as fast all the way to 100 because gold/marble has such a high difficulty a good tickrate can be acquired all the way to 100. 

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2 hours ago, whykillme said:

 

Yes it has been explained Hordern.

 

Thanks :)

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Anyone consider that apart from pvpers and a few focused individuals, freedom is full of cAsUaLs when considering the aggregate skill difference 

Edited by Postinglels

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Aside from the issues on merging two different skillgain systems on clusters that have existed for years now, even the baby brother Epic... players will end up being lost regardless of how such a thing is handled.

 

Then there's getting into the players of each cluster. Quite a few of the Epic players left Chaos and the rest of Freedom. There's players on Chaos who have no interest in Epic and never have from the beginning. Then there's players who bounce back and forth to varying degrees. Too many players in each cluster who don't really care about the other cluster, each has chosen their playstyle years ago.

 

Just those two areas alone, skills and social, would have players lost.

 

And there's still no guarantee that a merge will even bring in players at all, even initially while excitement over a change is traditionally high.

 

EDIT: Don't even get me started on the inherent inaccuracies and fallacies of forum polls. Discussed that one to death many times.

Edited by Klaa

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18 hours ago, Postinglels said:

Anyone consider that apart from pvpers and a few focused individuals, freedom is full of cAsUaLs when considering the aggregate skill difference 

 

Hope you're elite enough to be able to fund WO should the "casuals" ever leave, taking their salaries and credit cards with them =)

 

From my experience, the average tween can't mach a grown up's salary (why "tween"?  The highly original, not from the 1990's use of alternating cApItAl LeTtErS kinda gives it away)

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