The Dragon Dilema

[Takinshi 75]

So I've hated dragons since I've been on Deliverance. Always killed in private by the crusty vets regardless of having signed up or helped out even. It seems like a destructive element that is handled purely from greed and causes a lot of social distress. Out of all the uniques, other than valrei item and bone, dragons have the most meta-gamey value to them. Make a ton of cash killing them in a small group, make and sell the armor and whatnot. After thorough investigation on the process and concept of unique hunts, I finally understand it and am no longer irritated by the lack of notice, same day spawn kills, pennings, etc.  

 

Dragon hunts are right place right time. Unfortunately they HAVE to be this way. Penning the creature takes a fistful of silver and even then it is not secure. It takes quite awhile to go through this and even then, there is always a way and a malicious type of individual that will go out of their way to organize a strictly underground raid on it, even if it is secured. It becomes public knowledge quickly that a dragon is spawned and many people set out to find it. Those that provide legitimate effort in the search receive rolls on a valrei item drop if it occurs. This allows even newbies to loosely partake in the hunt.  

 

Taki is some nobody and I got on board because I was at the right place at the right time for enough time... Searched foreverrrr.... T_T That is the ONLY reason I was involved in the hunt. If I were not on, it would occur without me and now having knowledge of why things are the way they are, I understand and am not irritated by it.  

 

All of the other uniques can and generally should be planned for. They lack the severely meta-gamey element that the dragons provide but they do drop bone and have a chance of dropping valrei. Kingdom hunts loot is relatively straightforward but a full blown public hunt would have to have a compromised loot system. I'd think it would be based on who dished out hits. Regardless, those uniques are significantly less likely to be exploited for selfish gain. I'd like the unique hunts to be a community building event, but dragons cannot be the case. Just be at the right place at the right time and you can be involved. They aren't as covert underground as they are made out to be; If you're a genuinely good person, you will end up involved. 

Edited November 6, 2015 by Takinshi

[MrCoolMan 261]

+1 and i like it, ill help for my community most, in this case my friend having her deed destroyed by a dragon, and i will go help rebuild.

then u ppl standing out for me is another +1 and ill give it back, knowing me so.

[Yaga 2,887]

.... Always killed in private by the crusty vets regardless of having signed up or helped out even.

Why start your "career" with accusations? And they are not even true!

 

At least the "crusty vets" had the decency of including the entire search party in the slaying...

[Stik 453]

trdr ( too red didn't read ). Why do you always use that font? Very annoying font.

[Takinshi 75]

I'm saying that's the perception that it all gives when you're on the outside. That's not how it is but is how it really feels like due to lack of communication about the encounter. It's not that there's a ton of hush hush but it's generally group up, kill it, move on with life. XD

Edited November 6, 2015 by Takinshi

[Takinshi 75]

ALSO! I have a history with epic where the vets there are generally malicious individuals. Inner kingdom griefing until people quit, not giving a damn about anything unless it involves profit and even telling newbies who they can and can't be friends with. Deliverance veterans have been a pretty massive culture shock for me. XD

[MrCoolMan 261]

so speaking of things adding this...

its fast thing what happend. take care and have a good weekend ppl.

 

false data inpute from my part i need to re take it

 

Edited November 6, 2015 by MrCoolMan

[MrCoolMan 261]

correct data from when we started to kill it at guard tower here.

might be missing some logs here ill miss some key players but its my combat log from when we went in on it where it was at tower.

http://webbrar.co.uk/uniques/table.php?data=w065IRDV9q


 

Edited November 6, 2015 by MrCoolMan

[Odynn 2,248]

Bigger trouble with the uniques imho is their lack, when you have one creature appearing every 2 or 3 weeks, with a silly RNG based spawn the items value go overboard. From a market view, why are the rare bones worth 30+s when you can buy a rare tool /  weapon / complete rare scale set for less than that (rarity wise that is). And no point to mention the 1g+ valrei items. High value means not enough items on the market.

 

The next point is the fun, is a 100+ people slaying interesting, is it enjoyable to have the creature killed in 30 seconds or is the hunting party / penners who had the real thrill of the hunt. Massive public slaying are not fun as such.  Come to it, get the blood/scale/hide, leave, your involvment doesn't matter.

 

Dragons reward everyone in local, making them more interesting to be killed privatly since the amount of hide is shared amongst all. And players in a private party will tend to trust each others more and not go crazy with alts to get more hide/scale. Giving hide / scale to players hitting the creature would be silly, priests are needed too and often allow smaller groups to kill the creatures, no rewards for them would be unfair. Same for the noobs healing the fighters, I was healed during those fights more than once by players unable to hit the creature, but saved the day by healing the tank. Everyone can have a spot. But because of those hitting/ casting / healing situation, you can create more loopholes players could abuse for rewards, which drive us back to the private slayings.

 

The dilemna with the uniques is trying to make something accessible to all, and rewarding personal involvment. With the current situation it's impossible. Some players will spend hours of their time to find the creature, when others will only show for the kill/loot. And even if restrictions on the loot are done, it's not perfect as well.

 

In a perfect world, all items dropped by the unique would be sold (in or out of the group) and the cash divided amongst the slaying crew, same reward for everyone with the same involvment (lets not mention the search party there then). Not sure some would agree on loosing their chance at a free bone or valrei item though.

 

TL;DR : Uniques are broken, what should have been a fun feature became a complete mess where greed, envy and drama is always present. Whatever you try to do wil always fall back on you unless they are fixed in a way allowing more spawns/ smaller group of players to get them down.

[Takinshi 75]

 

correct data from when we started to kill it at guard tower here.

might be missing some logs here ill miss some key players but its my combat log from when we went in on it where it was at tower.

http://webbrar.co.uk/uniques/table.php?data=w065IRDV9q

 

http://webbrar.co.uk/uniques/table.php?data=eSNyvYIxXZ from the other forum post. I was standing next to it when it started. :3

 

Bigger trouble with the uniques imho is their lack, when you have one creature appearing every 2 or 3 weeks, with a silly RNG based spawn the items value go overboard. From a market view, why are the rare bones worth 30+s when you can buy a rare tool /  weapon / complete rare scale set for less than that (rarity wise that is). And no point to mention the 1g+ valrei items. High value means not enough items on the market.

 

The next point is the fun, is a 100+ people slaying interesting, is it enjoyable to have the creature killed in 30 seconds or is the hunting party / penners who had the real thrill of the hunt. Massive public slaying are not fun as such.  Come to it, get the blood/scale/hide, leave, your involvment doesn't matter.

 

Dragons reward everyone in local, making them more interesting to be killed privatly since the amount of hide is shared amongst all. And players in a private party will tend to trust each others more and not go crazy with alts to get more hide/scale. Giving hide / scale to players hitting the creature would be silly, priests are needed too and often allow smaller groups to kill the creatures, no rewards for them would be unfair. Same for the noobs healing the fighters, I was healed during those fights more than once by players unable to hit the creature, but saved the day by healing the tank. Everyone can have a spot. But because of those hitting/ casting / healing situation, you can create more loopholes players could abuse for rewards, which drive us back to the private slayings.

 

The dilemna with the uniques is trying to make something accessible to all, and rewarding personal involvment. With the current situation it's impossible. Some players will spend hours of their time to find the creature, when others will only show for the kill/loot. And even if restrictions on the loot are done, it's not perfect as well.

 

In a perfect world, all items dropped by the unique would be sold (in or out of the group) and the cash divided amongst the slaying crew, same reward for everyone with the same involvment (lets not mention the search party there then). Not sure some would agree on loosing their chance at a free bone or valrei item though.

 

TL;DR : Uniques are broken, what should have been a fun feature became a complete mess where greed, envy and drama is always present. Whatever you try to do wil always fall back on you unless they are fixed in a way allowing more spawns/ smaller group of players to get them down.

+1

The comment on 100+ is new insight to me. I've yet to experience it myself until this upcoming Saturday. If it's not enjoyable then community hunts would probably be more appropriate. Doing this without leaking to outside islands would be difficult but would be the only feasible way to make them enjoyable and worthwhile. 

Thank you for the input Odynn.

Edited November 7, 2015 by Takinshi

[Pandalet 1,848]

What you choose to do with a unique you've penned is pretty much up to you.  However, if you enjoy going to other peoples' public hunts, then you should give that some thought - the more you restrict yours and do quick, private kills with nobody else notified, the less likely others are to make theirs public.  Public fights are a bit painful, due to the lag from all those folks in local, but they're also a chance for folks to mingle.  For more people to get some of the by-products - everyone gets a blood, and some of them are quite useful; newbies get something worth a few silver they can sell, vets get more chances to buy the pots they need (a full imbue can take 8 - 12 potions).  For dragons, there are any number of people who would love to make the newer colours of armour - see the group that silently and swiftly killed the only blue dragon to spawn on Freedom so far, making sure that no scale scraps leaked out.

 

The bottom line is that lots of people like going to public hunts (see the response to the Release goblin if you don't believe that), but the more folks make their hunts private, or private loot, the less likely others are to open their slayings (or loot) to folks outside their village / alliance / server / friends group.

[Takinshi 75]

Yeah, I'm a bit mixed about that. I'd like to have a nice mix between the two. Some of the uniques on our neighboring islands have been alive for far far too long and I'm considering mapping their island out, finding it and hosting a hunt to include the host island community. I don't really consider dragons a unique at this point. They are dragons. Stupid things. >: (

[As_I_Decay 1,592]

Yeah, I'm a bit mixed about that. I'd like to have a nice mix between the two. Some of the uniques on our neighboring islands have been alive for far far too long and I'm considering mapping their island out, finding it and hosting a hunt to include the host island community. I don't really consider dragons a unique at this point. They are ###### dragons. Stupid things. >: (

You go right ahead and scour Xan for the hidden uniques. See you in a couple of years.

[Takinshi 75]

XD Yeah. Haha.

[QueenRocks 105]

Since this can of wurms has been opened once gain, let me add my 5 cents worth of comment.

 

I have been at unique kills for a considerable time, but I cannot recall the last public kill on Deliverance. There was one in September this year. Yet the "crusty vets" of Deli have no problem turning up at other server's public fights to get a "piece of the pie". There... I just had to get that off my chest.

 

I am proud to say that Pristine's kills have all been public, we have resisted to urge to follow the example of others to keep the kills local or even within a select group. In this regard it makes no difference if it is a giant or a dragon, they are all valuable. Yes it takes time, a few silver and cotton to secure them, and yes it's usually the same people that are willing to make that effort. The concept of "in the right place at the right time" is only relevant to the search, in the end the unique is always shared with the entire Wurm community. For me this also applies when I search for them on other servers, the reason is not ever to stage a private kill for the loot!

 

Why do we do it the way we do it? The search is about the thrill of the hunt, the challenge of surviving more than a few hits at times, seeing dragons fly across water trying to catch you, the look on the Kyklops' face when it knows it's been caught, the awesome video clips, and above all the working together on a common goal. On a side note, you get to know your server and know where to cut down that blasted birch tree north of InTheMiddleOfNowhere on the next mission 

 

As Pandalet said, the event itself often turns into a mini impalong, fantastic faith gains for the priests, a chance to meet old friends, make new ones and do business. Newer players have a chance to see a unique and get a title they are very proud to wear. It is a ton of fun organizing these events, providing food, first aid, horses and taxi services. It's all worth the only negative which is the local lag.

 

Pristine has no problem with the loot rolls, since there are pretty strict "rules of engagement" which are spelled out in the announcement of the event. Everybody goes away happy and is waiting for the next one. Since I have taken part in searches, the searchers did not reserve a part of the loot as "reward". That is not what it's all about!

 

"Dragon Drama" only follows private kills!

 

That said, I would like to encourage the individuals that think "a private kill is the only way to get something decent out of this" (agreed there are circumstances where deeds are at risk and a quick kill is unavoidable) to re-think and join the fun. The old days of 1 unique each per server are long time gone!

 

Edited November 7, 2015 by QueenRocks

[Odynn 2,248]

Even if i'm a crusty vet from deli, i don't show on public slaying, unless my help was directly required. As much as i value your will to do public kills, are you thinking of the player on your own server unwilling to hunt or travel to others servers. We used to like to get together to do the kill, add some extra rewards to the hunt, knowing each others and have fun, not gather with complete strangers that will take away some blood or hide/scale to sell it back to us later on (which seems to be your point).

 

The "we must all do public fights" is nice, yup, but only a small part of the wurm community, 100 out of 3000 (1000 real?) players are taking part of it. Which also means that a player on a specific server will have to wait 3x more time to get a set done. As if 2/3 years for a scale set wasn't bad enough (drake hide armor taking way longuer than that), public kill with 100 players pushing it past the 10 years mark.

 

So yes, everything is nice in a communist world, if you are part of the elite (around 80 players or so) going around and profiting from all the servers uniques, but doing so you are also screwing up the local players (at least on dragons).

 

Sermons tend to be a joke at public slaying, let me remind you that only one priest can do a sermon every 30 minutes, which means that unless your slaying take a lot of time, only 2 priest will benefit from it.

 

Do you really need to travel to others servers to meet up old friends ? We have plenty of ways to stay in contact... or do business.

 

We both agree though on the thrill of the hunt, which is in the search party for a bigger part. But the slaying itself can be quite interesting as well when the creature is not ganked up with a lot of players.

 

Uniques are not designed for such amounts, or they would be way tougher (and without the 30 or so attackers cap).

 

So before calling others players greedy, ponder the fact that you might be the greedy one instead.

[noermel 122]

ALSO! I have a history with epic where the vets there are generally malicious individuals. Inner kingdom griefing until people quit, not giving a damn about anything unless it involves profit and even telling newbies who they can and can't be friends with. Deliverance veterans have been a pretty massive culture shock for me. XD

maybe wrong kingdom eh ? ^^ And... you know that epic vets = freedom vets too (in most cases and in some cases the same persons)

[Takinshi 75]

maybe wrong kingdom eh ? ^^ And... you know that epic vets = freedom vets too (in most cases and in some cases the same persons)

Lol yeah. I can quite often "smell" the people that are from epic playing on freedom during its down time. .-. There's a reason epic population is flatlined. XD

I'm finding that people are misinterpreting the crusty vet phrase. My military background is jargon is bleeding through. You don't need to take it as a harshly derogatory phrase. When I say crusty vets, noticably many self identify as it or immediately understand. I felt this clarification was necessary.

A key element to the thrill of the hunt that clicked for me is when Odynn mentioned that public hunts are just everyone ganging up on it and killing it with little effort. We had 18 on that white dragon. Organizing and having to chase that damn thing down was the thrill of the hunt. I'm sitting crashed outside of the camping area for the goblin leader atm and I'll get to experience the thrill if it is there or not.

 

[QueenRocks 105]

I have to thank Odynn for his valuable comments, which have proven one of the the points I was trying to make. Not once was the word "greed" used in what I had to say, but hey.... if the shoe fits, wear it 

[Takinshi 75]

http://webbrar.co.uk/uniques/table.php?data=ryIVeuR6Ko

Yeah. Everyone having to step in and step out due to the swarm of people. Hanging out and meeting a ton of people that I pester on the forums from time to time was nice though. There really is a point where there's too many. Perhaps the unique spawn rate needs to increase..

One method I may consider trying is gathering a group of 25-30 people, selected from the search party first if they want to or not, host island populace and a reserved set of slots, probably like 5-10 due to not many people wanting to travel for mundane unique hunts. looking at the white hatchling charts, it could be done with 5 carefully. 18 let us be a sloppy and amusing mess for a bit. 25-30 would probably be fun to try to organize the team and whatnot, also giving a good spread of people for the loot. I'd have to try it out to determine if it would be a feasible and responsible plan.

Too many people is noticeably too many aggressively demanding what the leader does. If I host, I'd like to select a few crusty veterans ;p to consult for performance and suggestions. If the party has something they want done differently, send it to the councilor which determines if it should be sent to the leader rather than 20-50 tactless shoutings at the leader. These conditions would need to be established clearly before hand. Perhaps I could make a unique hunt infrastructure that could essentially be plug and play lifting the mess from the group leaders shoulder. 

also, it blew my mind how messy the loot was distributed. It went how it did with the drake and not counting the 50 absentee names rolled.. it took a really long time. I could make a tool that would be plug and play being good to go.

 

Alas, this is speculation from someone having performed only 3 unique hunts. 

 

...I'm going to bed... lol.

Edited November 7, 2015 by Takinshi

[Klaa 4,872]

Crusty?

That's absurd... I'm well past the crusty stage.

[DoctorAngus 184]

Wurm it not a communist game. We play with what they develop for us.  You don't need a local full to kill a unique.

 

Us 'crusty vets' are also helping people.  I've been through hunts since they started and I've seen far worse GREED than simply not invited the whole game.... People have stolen very valuable parts for themselves.  We set our groups so that people INVOLVED in the arduous process of finding it get a more fair chance at the loot as well as keeping it safely in the hands of the people that deserve it.

 

Check your memory Queenrocks.. last public slaying on deli was the FIRST black dragon.  We also don't block people from joining us on the hunts.  If you see it spawn, come help find it and you get included on the hunt.

 

PS > your text color is burning my eyes, taki.

Edited November 7, 2015 by DoctorAngus

[QueenRocks 105]

Wurm it not a communist game. We play with what they develop for us.  You don't need a local full to kill a unique.

 

Us 'crusty vets' are also helping people.  I've been through hunts since they started and I've seen far worse GREED than simply not invited the whole game.... People have stolen very valuable parts for themselves.  We set our groups so that people INVOLVED in the arduous process of finding it get a more fair chance at the loot as well as keeping it safely in the hands of the people that deserve it.

 

Check your memory Queenrocks.. last public slaying on deli was the FIRST black dragon.  We also don't block people from joining us on the hunts.  If you see it spawn, come help find it and you get included on the hunt.

 

PS > your text color is burning my eyes, taki.

 I have edited my post as there was indeed one since bdew.net started tracking them.

 

This is turning into an argument that has it's roots in very different personalities, their reasons for playing and their gaming styles. One has to respect those differences. One day when I am in your neck of the woods and the circumstances are favorable I will take you up on it 

[Druidnature 1,118]

 

PS > your text color is burning my eyes, taki.

 

 

See dang it? i'm not the only one!!!!

 

 

On a serious note, this is why I do NOT provide my help in the slayings.  I was asked last two times now, And the first I flat out didn't want to, the second i was about to head out but noticed in Kchat it seemed they had a tank/group already going for it (Outside of the one I knew about)

 

I have no issue coming to help on these if they're not crazy 30+ minutes to get too, but when I see arguments over the loot/how to slay/ect start, I don't even plan to head out. this has been going for....2 years? Now, and still nobody has managed a 90-100% working group, that satisfies a majory of the people.  (Aka: So fights/alliance wars/neighbor wars don't break out)

 

 

with a 97 FS SOTG character, I could learn to tank these and come help.  I also have 3-4 characters around 70-80 FS, but if tanking I likely wouldn't bring any so I can focus on what i'm doing.  But I'll only come if someone makes a group with good rules on the loot (And no, I don't believe everyone that was near the dragon should get free loot roles.  helping in some way should be a requirement, whether that's fighting / Healing / Searching / ect    If you come just to the dragon, and don't manage to do damage/heal ect, I see no reason you should get a free roll)

 

Better yet, would be nice if Dragons were completely redesigned on how Loot is handed out, to make it RNG in the people who helped, and each get there own "roll"  if they manage to "roll" high enough, they get a item based on what they roll.  But that may be to much RNG for wurm to handle on that manner.

[Odynn 2,248]

[...]

But I'll only come if someone makes a group with good rules on the loot (And no, I don't believe everyone that was near the dragon should get free loot roles.  helping in some way should be a requirement, whether that's fighting / Healing / Searching / ect    If you come just to the dragon, and don't manage to do damage/heal ect, I see no reason you should get a free roll)

 

The last hunts I managed, with private(ish) loot was based on that mostly. Rewarding the involved players more than those just coming in for the kill/free loot. Might be worth adapting it a bit more so no one is forgotten.

 

And seeing what kind of mess it was / amount of drama there is i might have to step in again.