Bugged fountains renamed

[Druidnature 1,118]

At least u guys are able to discuss and talk about it.

As BL most things just get nerfed/removed without any discussion.

Moral of the story: stop crying and keep on wurming

 

Whynotboth.gif    This IS why I have multiple screens!!! 

[Macadelic 199]

Arkonick, I am having a hard time deciphering what you are trying to say here, but it seems that you didn't fully read my comments or you just cannot comprehend it. You have the typical response of an envious non-fountain pan owner, which you are totally entitled to. It seems as if your group has won this battle after all. Please reread my statement about this bug eventually getting fixed. You will find the piece in which I said "Nobody would have bought them if it wasn't stated/implied, 8 years ago, that the items would remain in-game." Let me try to help you understand just what this means. Wayyyy back in 2008 when the fountain pan bug was discovered and exploited, Code Club released a patch to prevent any more pans from being created. Alongside of this patch, they were forced with a decision to make. Either they A.) allowed the already created pans to remain in-game or B.) permanently remove them from the game. While there is controversy as to whether or not they actually said that these existing pans would remain in-game, the fact is that they were not removed at that time. Since removing them would have been an EXTREMELY easy task to accomplish, it was implied that the existing pans would remain thus creating a real, monetary market for them just like with many other items in this game. Now, 8 years later, the dev team decides that they are just going to remove them, for whatever reason, regardless of what was said/done in the past. As you SHOULD be able to understand, there is quite a bit of frustration coming from current owners as nobody likes to be mislead or, for lack of a better term, lied to. I really hope this explanation helps with your understanding of how this really went down. Edited November 5, 2015 by Macadelic

[Fairyshine 3,183]

I'm going to look at this from a dev view.

 

WO is not a game for you to make money it's soul purpose was for the game dev to make a living. On the player side be lucky he allows you to make money unlike most all others do not.

This was a bug and went on long time and is now being fixed. Not the bug you wanted fixed oh well it is a bug and a bug getting fixed is always good. If it hurts your income oh well the game wasn't developed for you as a job but a relaxing game enjoyment. If you made it a job thats on you look at it as a job going out of buisness.

 

I wonder if the dev would make a better living if he sold some items through a shop as well?  Think about all the requested items like cosmetic items in relation to clothing or appearance (mantles, sashes, dresses, capes, mirrors for different hair styles or facial hair, necklaces/rings/bracelets with empty spots where you can add a gem stone of your choice, etc.), items for our pets like pretty saddles or ribbons or blankets (even for bears or unicorns or hellhorses), things to decorate our deeds or houses or carts (banners  or flags that can be attached to a cart or wagon and actually show up while we are driving), etc. These items are not game breaking nor do they add advantage to one player over another, it is just for giggles and fun.  Yet I believe it would roll in some money if you are correct in your assumption that the 'soul purpose' of a game is to earn the dev money.

 

As far as in game economy is concerned, every player plays Wurm the way he/she wants to play it.  If some people would like to play the game to make some coin in a game which does not prohibit this, why not?  If most play it not to make coin but do not care to invest some irl money to have more time to spend of what they find relaxing, why not?  It astounds me that people continuously keep thinking their own game style is the only "correct" one.  People are different and allowed to prefer different game styles.  It is part and parcel of life, and certainly part of a sandbox mmorpg to play however.

 

In relation to fountain pans, a year to enjoy their functionality while replacing with items that can take over the functionality... new items to lessen decay and increased capacity of other containers are great news, but why choose to remove an item in the process?  I personally would have loved to see them being retained as a true legacy item and something to be enjoyed by those who are lucky enough to have one.  Removing them within a year is still removing them, so a loss of lore for the game imho. 

[Niki 2,278]

What the hell

[15:25:48] A black hole with shimmering edges. It is unstable and will disappear in about 368 days, 13 hours and 33 minutes. Ql: 17.72531, Dam: 0.0.

 

Just compensate us now, no one wants to wait a year.

 

Also your PR team could be better Rolf, that isn't FUD. I'm a customer I spent a lot of money on Wurm. In the USA we are allowed to voice some dissatisfaction when things are bad. You can defend Retrograde here but a lot of us feel like he was pushing his opinions rather then taking advice from the community I used to be friends with him but I ended that today. PR is supposed to listen and fix things before they turn into a mess. (Sort of like right now.) OR you know it would be nice to hear from you and what you want to do which seems better.

Edited November 5, 2015 by Niki

[fencejumper 491]

What the hell

[15:25:48] A black hole with shimmering edges. It is unstable and will disappear in about 368 days, 13 hours and 33 minutes. Ql: 17.72531, Dam: 0.0.

 

Just compensate us now, no one wants to wait a year.

 

I don't recall seeing anything that indicated they would be compensated? I'm sure if you'd rather just get rid of it, there are players who will glady take it off your hands and enjoy it for the next year.

[aamanus 1,488]

The permissions bugs are still being worked on and we are aiming to address them all in one update rather than piece by piece, as it is a large undertaking it may take a little longer

 

This highlights a main part of the problem we have as players.  Highly selective communication, prioritising letting us know that you're removing the remaining items created by a bug umpteen years ago, but requiring high-level interrogation to find that you're actually addressing some serious game breaking bugs.  

 

I would suggest having someone in charge of PR who can work as a liaison between the community and the staff team; but I think we all know how that went.

 

Seriously though, even if all you say is "Hi guys, we're aware of xyz and are currently working on a fix", we'd at least know that it's happening rather than constantly reporting bugs and the reports seemingly being tossed into the bin.

[Aeryck 862]

I don’t understand how this is such an unfathomable concept; Code Club is a business and Wurm is the market in which they sell their product. The product for sale is Premium Game Time and Upkeep (read; theft and decay protection). So why is everyone surprised that when a bug is found, which takes away the need for customers to purchase said product, that CC would want to remedy it?

 

 

 

By owning Fountain Containers you are reducing the number of tiles you rent and the number of Premium Alts that you need to store your hordes of treasure. These items hurt CC’s bottom line. Rolf’s job is to please as many people as possible while still making a profit and I presume he decided that he could make more of a profit and upset few enough people that this change was necessary. It’s frustrating, but it’s business. What I would like to see is a commitment that if this money leak is being plugged that CC is working on some of the other major fixes that the entire community agrees on; like why cant I wear a cape? 

Edited November 5, 2015 by Aeryck

[Druidnature 1,118]

I don’t understand how this is such an unfathomable concept; Code Club is a business and Wurm is the market in which they sell their product. The product for sale is Premium Game Time and Upkeep (read; theft and decay protection). So why is everyone surprised that when a bug is found, which takes away the need for customers to purchase said product, that CC would want to remedy it?

 

 

 

By owning Fountain Containers you are reducing the number of tiles you rent and the number of Premium Alts that you need to store your hordes of treasure. These items hurt CC’s bottom line. Rolf’s job is to please as many people as possible while still making a profit and I presume he decided that he could make more of a profit and upset few enough people that this change was necessary. It’s frustrating, but it’s business. What I would like to see is a commitment that if this money leak is being plugged that CC is working on some of the other major fixes that the entire community agrees on; like why cant I wear a cape? 

 

 

Your pretty wrong here, actually.

 

While yes it does reduce alts needed, which FYI I can get for 2 silver each, What did they just "remove"? 

 

 

Well, now I no longer need to buy a LMC, to put my FP in.  I also no longer need to buy 1g+ per fountain container from the store.

 

From a "sales" standpoint, they would have just shot themselves in the face with their own bullets.  But I'm pretty sure they aren't looking at it from that point.

Edited November 5, 2015 by Druidnature

[Eyesgood 2,121]

Give players another year so they get even more out of their investment then get rid of them all the while creating game features to replace the "bug" exploit.  

 

I think Rolf's solution was clever and fair.

[Niki 2,278]

@ Aeryck

Reduce decay on all items maybe? I pay about 10s+ total for all my deeds, I literally have 10+ premed storage alts so they don't decay from inactive use  (is that considered an exploit/bug?) I liked to be able to storage NS items in my fountain containers and now I cannot do that indefinably. High QL acorns,woads without having to pay bsb tax. Most people use them for daily use not for long-term item storage. 365 days is a joke and a slap on the face, and I'll most likely quit as I stated once before.

[Aeryck 862]

But who would you buy if from? Another veteran player who has stacks of coin or directly from CC? These items aren't generating money for CC they are just shifting the money around which already exists within the game. Mark my words; the next big announcement on the subject will be an item which does the same thing but is only purchasable through merchants. It all leads to soaking up some of the coin that is out there.

[Druidnature 1,118]

But who would you buy if from? Another veteran player who has stacks of coin or directly from CC? These items aren't generating money for CC they are just shifting the money around which already exists within the game. Mark my words; the next big announcement on the subject will be an item which does the same thing but is only purchasable through merchants. It all leads to soaking up some of the coin that is out there.

 

As someone that's bought over 15g now through CC in under 2 years......I'd HAVE bought it from CC.

 

Now? haha. Nooooope.

[Aeryck 862]

@ Aeryck

Reduce decay on all items maybe? I pay about 10s+ total for all my deeds, I literally have 10+ premed storage alts so they don't decay from inactive use (is that considered an exploit/bug?) I liked to be able to storage NS items in my fountain containers and now I cannot do that indefinably. High QL acorns,woads without having to pay bsb tax. Most people use them for daily use not for long-term item storage. 365 days is a joke and a slap on the face, and I'll most likely quit as I stated once before.

This is exactly what I am saying; if CC could charge for all the non-decay storage space your FC provides than it is no question that they will find a way.

[Herrfritz 181]

 

Rolf and CodeClub is being more than generous by leaving the bugged items for another year AND working on creating non-bugged replacements. Stop the whining and be grateful for a change.

It is not a generous move. We are not talking apples-to-apples here.

 

It is a generous move, as it is indeed NOT apples to apples.

The only reason the bugged items were not removed right away was because the old (legacy) players screamed bloody murder and threatened to ragequit, and back then the playerbase was small enough to worry Rolf if they did leave. Times have changed, those legacy players are now a small part of the playerbase, and it's time to make the game fair to new players. It's time to remove the bugged items.

So, what you are saying is that it is okay to make a statement (or action) to allow an bugged item to remain in-game while you have a smaller playerbase, but then renege on that statement when the population grows? Business standards of this nature are hardly respectable.

 

What he is saying, is that it is time to change bad decissions from the past to get to a point with standards at all.

As to how much money you may have spent on them, that really is your own problem. Rolf did not sell it to you, nor did he set the price. You knew you were buying a bugged item, and common sense should have told you that bugs get fixed - eventually. Again I say, be grateful he is being considerate enough to make replacements for them, all he needs to do is remove the bug. He has no obligation to do anything more than that.

No, Code Club did not set the price for the items, but they did set the market for them. Common sense does not tell you that a bug will eventually be fixed when the folks that run the game say (or imply) that the the bug will remain in-game. They have been around for 8 years, not 1 month.

 

Agreed, should have been fixed far earlier.

And no, you should not get magical chests to replace them. Those are items Rolf DOES sell to the players, and you should not get one from him for free. As I said earlier, he didn't sell the bugged item to you, you have no right to expect him to give away expensive items to replace your bugged item. Be patient and wait to see what they come up with for replacements, you may find he has good ideas. Besides, a magical chest does not give you as much storage, nor can you put it in a forge or oven, so it comes up short on what the bugged items were used for.

Pans were not given away for good looks. People bought them with real money or coin that was bought with real money. Code Club surely had no problem selling the coin used to buy them. I highly doubt that it will kill them to give the current 8-year old bug owners the option to trade their 8-year old bug for a LMC or similar, non-craftable item. They likely received the funds for a large majority of the 8-year old bug sales anyway through coin purchases. You can keep trying to fault the players for buying these 8-year old bugs, but it just doesn't make sense. Nobody would have bought them if it wasn't stated/implied, 8 years ago, that the items would remain in-game.

 

Strangley nobody ever complains here if game mechanics swing the other way or does CodeClub want their share when selling rares/drake/scale?

One thing that you are spot on about is LMC storage and forge/oven placement. It wouldn't be anywhere close to a fair trade, but it would be better than absolutely nothing at all.

The five stages of loss:  3. Bargaining.

Keep going you're nearly there.

 

 

 

[Heboric 808]

People seem to be getting highly selective about the bugs they want fixed.....freaking out if it's a bug working in their favor that is being removed. A bug is a bug and in the end the less there are the better.

 

As for the claim earlier that this was just the bum on the corner (nice description of all the players who don't own pans btw), complaining about the rich kids driving around in their nice cars......it seems to me more like the rich kids complaining because Henry Ford came along and now EVERYONE is going to be able to have a car and enjoy the benefits.

 

One thing is certain in this game though......people are going to complain whatever happens. This isn't the worst decision I've seen though by far - at least it is a obviously real attempt at a compromise. As for Retrograde making the decision - I'm pretty sure he didn't unless Rolf suddenly gave him the final word. Getting all personal and accusatory at one person here seems pretty low. You bought pixels ffs.....it's just a game.

[Kadore 926]

Retrograde isn't to blame at all really. He may be strongly against these pans but I doubt it. He owns two.

At least some of us devs feel bad about bugs and imbalances. In general old lingering ones if we think they deter new players. This leads us to try and fix them. I am pretty certain Retrograde just tries to mediate between you and us and explain our view of the situation since we're not here enough to answer ourselves.

 

The outcome of this discussion is strongly based on your input which was negative to change and we want to fix the bug while helping you as much as possible. Our initial alternative has always been to just put the fountains on the ground which is the easy decision.

I am happy that at least some of you understand and appreciate our efforts. It is a bit strange to see the rage that comes from you being able to use the items for another year. I can't think of any better solution to this bugged item.

He's not so much to blame, he just carries an air of arrogance, perhaps a different messenger next time would ease things some.

 

For the most part the answers were answered far too quickly for myself to believe any communication with a team was taking place, the answers were pretty much his own from my take away

 

That would be why a lot seem to call him out for bias, why I am grateful some decision was ultimately made, I feel it was poorly discussed with the majority of CC's response coming from only one voice, any sense of true collaboration is lost when you feel like your arguing with a stone wall.  

[Elktazahjr 131]

">devs you dont communicate enough"

>literally the first time a dev decided to communicate more about changes

>"wow you're so biased this is all just your own little plot isn't it"

and then people still try to convince me the wurm community isn't that bad

Edited November 5, 2015 by Elktazahjr

[Macadelic 199]

 

 

Rolf and CodeClub is being more than generous by leaving the bugged items for another year AND working on creating non-bugged replacements. Stop the whining and be grateful for a change.

It is not a generous move. We are not talking apples-to-apples here.

 

It is a generous move, as it is indeed NOT apples to apples.

The only reason the bugged items were not removed right away was because the old (legacy) players screamed bloody murder and threatened to ragequit, and back then the playerbase was small enough to worry Rolf if they did leave. Times have changed, those legacy players are now a small part of the playerbase, and it's time to make the game fair to new players. It's time to remove the bugged items.

So, what you are saying is that it is okay to make a statement (or action) to allow an bugged item to remain in-game while you have a smaller playerbase, but then renege on that statement when the population grows? Business standards of this nature are hardly respectable.

 

What he is saying, is that it is time to change bad decissions from the past to get to a point with standards at all.

As to how much money you may have spent on them, that really is your own problem. Rolf did not sell it to you, nor did he set the price. You knew you were buying a bugged item, and common sense should have told you that bugs get fixed - eventually. Again I say, be grateful he is being considerate enough to make replacements for them, all he needs to do is remove the bug. He has no obligation to do anything more than that.

No, Code Club did not set the price for the items, but they did set the market for them. Common sense does not tell you that a bug will eventually be fixed when the folks that run the game say (or imply) that the the bug will remain in-game. They have been around for 8 years, not 1 month.

 

Agreed, should have been fixed far earlier.

And no, you should not get magical chests to replace them. Those are items Rolf DOES sell to the players, and you should not get one from him for free. As I said earlier, he didn't sell the bugged item to you, you have no right to expect him to give away expensive items to replace your bugged item. Be patient and wait to see what they come up with for replacements, you may find he has good ideas. Besides, a magical chest does not give you as much storage, nor can you put it in a forge or oven, so it comes up short on what the bugged items were used for.

Pans were not given away for good looks. People bought them with real money or coin that was bought with real money. Code Club surely had no problem selling the coin used to buy them. I highly doubt that it will kill them to give the current 8-year old bug owners the option to trade their 8-year old bug for a LMC or similar, non-craftable item. They likely received the funds for a large majority of the 8-year old bug sales anyway through coin purchases. You can keep trying to fault the players for buying these 8-year old bugs, but it just doesn't make sense. Nobody would have bought them if it wasn't stated/implied, 8 years ago, that the items would remain in-game.

 

Strangley nobody ever complains here if game mechanics swing the other way or does CodeClub want their share when selling rares/drake/scale?

One thing that you are spot on about is LMC storage and forge/oven placement. It wouldn't be anywhere close to a fair trade, but it would be better than absolutely nothing at all.

The five stages of loss:  3. Bargaining.

Keep going you're nearly there.

 

 

 

 

 

I give. I'm tired of typing. The no-pan clan wins. Some people's ability to logically rationalize situations within their brain is just nonexistent. It is bad. Really bad. Over and out.

Edited November 5, 2015 by Macadelic

[topkos 494]

I'm glad with the decision of CC. it gives time to the owners to swallow it and get used to the idea that only the owners of the game can and should monetize with inventory perks (and well, pretty much anything else).

[Druidnature 1,118]

He's not so much to blame, he just carries an air of arrogance, perhaps a different messenger next time would ease things some.

 

For the most part the answers were answered far too quickly for myself to believe any communication with a team was taking place, the answers were pretty much his own from my take away

 

That would be why a lot seem to call him out for bias, why I am grateful some decision was ultimately made, I feel it was poorly discussed with the majority of CC's response coming from only one voice, any sense of true collaboration is lost when you feel like your arguing with a stone wall.  

 

honestly i've been in this discussion since the first page of the first topic on it.... And retro didn't ever seem against them.  (though I could name a few others with there "reasoning")

 

The problem here is ,if we're all going to have same functions in other things (which Fp owners have been asking for, so everyone can have them...) Why is it being removed.  it, is, a, Artifact. NOT A BUG. it was a bug the first year, maybe. That is long since gone.

 

Now, this artifact is going to not only lose function, it's going to be deleted. destroyed, gone. No history will be remembered, Nothing. Not even a cool item that doesn't do anything but to just say we "use to have this cool thing" it's, just, gone.

 

That, is what is wrong.  Take it's functions (which doesn't help anyone on either side) fine.  Remove it entirely? ..... Nice.

[Pashka 707]

I do own fountainpans and love them.  I now have 1 year to use them.  While I am not happy they will be gone in a year, I do hope (possibly in a pipe dream way) that they will have all of the functionality replaced.  Including something that will reduce decay on this many items.  Mine are storage containers only.  Guess in a way I'm just glad a decision has been made and it is over.  Now depending on what areas are replaced and what aren't, people can make decisions.  F

 

For those jealous bitties, bite me!

[atazs 965]

Bugs that are not game breaking are always put on a lower priority list. This bug was not game breaking but it was still a bug that goes against the vision of wurm Rolf had. It wasn't suppose to happen but it did and not being game breaking other things like future development content and major game breaking bugs get worked on first. Sometimes a bug can go years before it is finally brought up and worked on. No one cares when a bug gets fixed that has been in the game for years as long as it's not a bug they use to some sort of advantage.

 

The whole point is Why are you and others so upset a bug is getting fixed?

I could care less, for one i never owned any of these, and two i dont even play WO anymore. But that doesn't mean i have to like this change and have to like how the devs are handling this situation. Then again, the way this game is run and developed has been a huge joke. 

Edited November 6, 2015 by atazs

[topkos 494]

ok...

 

 

[Ryshad 26]

Now, this artifact is going to not only lose function, it's going to be deleted. destroyed, gone. No history will be remembered, Nothing. Not even a cool item that doesn't do anything but to just say we "use to have this cool thing" it's, just, gone.

 

That, is what is wrong.  Take it's functions (which doesn't help anyone on either side) fine.  Remove it entirely? ..... Nice.

[ClericGunem 275]

I have been a developer for longer than Wurm has been a game and I have seen many times where bugs can go years without being fixed, but almost never without a reason whether political or otherwise.  I looked through the code that can be extracted while working on mods for WU and I wanted to find a reason to show you why they needed to be fixed.  

 

What I found was a beautiful system with a vast amount of potential that can be made even better.  For example, right now a backpack can be made of seryll and improved with seryll; it only lacks a skin and complete system to establish dynamic attributes, such as volume, durability, weight, and capacity and generic decay, there are beginnings of such a system and it could be added with implemented with some work. But not if they have to make exceptions for bugs.  

 

 

You want doors in mines, it can be done, it looks like about 10 files need to be modified and maybe a new mine title type, looks easy i will need to finish and test then will know if it was actually easy.  You want more tiles, there may be little bit of a limitation at the moment due to the ids and optimization they chose, but not completely sure.  You want more decorations...  Its work but the details, the code, the logic are present for what could be one of the most epic sandboxes ever.

 

If they want to be able to eventually add in arbitrary items with little overhead, things like this must go, it was *not* an item in the game, the fact they isolated and had to rename so that they could remove them was coding, which could not be avoided as somewhere down the road they will inadvertently fix the exploit, possibly "destroying" all the items in them and that is not guessing i can see at least one way of accidentally destroying all fountain pans.  

 

They have done an immense favor by taking the time to itemize them, but they would still be an exception.  It was pointed out that they have no way to test these exploits to make sure they do not break them, which makes me wonder if they have not already "almost" done it.  I think it would have been better to just break them it would have been quick and then those who fully understood they were an exploit would have gotten over them, those who are cheaters would have left the game and no real loss.

 

It is not an easy thing to plan out long term changes and prioritize bugs, it is less easy when a large portion of the "legacy" customers are so hostile, such a situation causes development freezes, wasted cycles for special development, and inaction because they cannot follow through with long term plans due to catering to a few noisy customers.  My opinion and recommendation would have been to ban everyone that owns a cheat rift and is still openly hostile after the announced changes for the sake of the game.  The interest and economic surge after the looters finished with your deeds would more than pay for anything you add to the game and it would remove the poison you are injecting here.

 

Now for the answers to the QQ players.... 

 

I am not getting this whole haves vs have-nots or "give us magic chests".  If you are so touchy about the "have-nots" i think you may want to evaluate what category you actually fall in.  These items are exploits and if you are crying about the money and pointing fingers at "have-nots" then you are farther into the "have-nots" category than you want to admit.

 

I have a couple magic chests, I have several prem alts, I do not like to have to repair everything every time i get too busy at work, but it is part of the game, but I never considered buying one of these exploits as it is clearly violating the design of the game.  I went on vacation and when i returned had to spent 8 straight hours repairing things and i am due to do it again because i have been too busy to keep up.

 

Part of the game is decay and entropy and it is in this game what keeps the system continually moving, fresh, and dynamic.  Some games it is casuals, some it is level creep, and others it is turnover due to lack of content and gimped trading. You really do not comprehend the breadth of Wurm or the potential if you are crying over this.  

 

Hypocrisy, most seem to appreciate decay when it works in your favor, like the crappy neighbor's eyesore/deed that will eventually disappear after they have been gone and not paid their upkeep, or when you are waiting for house walls to fall so you can loot a nice deed.  

 

One post says they "help" the economy by, i think the fallacious argument is, providing the "haves" to have a reason to stay so they can buy rares, supremes, blah, blah, blah-, ... not even a real argument, neither valid nor sound, and clearly lacking a basic understanding about real or game economics among other things.  Paying people to imp stuff back to 90 and giving people something to work/grind for so they can provide a service or services creates money, not fantasy luxury spending.  I have several very nice rares i bought, which i do store in LMC; stuff not as valuable i repair or if i lack skill buy new or pay to get impd'd.  Playing the game as designed within the rules puts money into the economy, not hoarding items, equipment, or even stock as a seller.  Sellers accounting for and working around decay will make more money in RL and in a game.

 

Storing 99ql mats in your cheat rift within a LMC is not helping anyone and limitations on LMC and LMG ultimately keep the system moving, if you hoard, then go buy more chests, that puts money into the economy.  I agree that there should be a way to smelt ore better and a few minor things, but exploiting so you can mass produce tools or weaopns or whatever for profit or not is still exploiting.  

 

Someone said they all the special items since game started...as far as i can tell everything in triplicate will fit into an LMC and a private merchant; 60s which sounds cheaper than 1g cheat rift anyway. A prem alt is cheap, sell the referral and the sleep powder and it is a permanent storage alt for what 2s without the possible issue of being misused or inappropriately accessed, even at 10s full price it is same price as merchant. 

 

I will be happy if they make storage better and allow some better long term significantly reduced decay storage, but then i also hope they never make it so anything is absolutely permanent.

Edited November 6, 2015 by ClericGunem