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Lichbane

Britannia Reborn (PvE) 16,384 map size

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Wow this map is really epic, the biome work is beautiful and the mountains are stunning and feel like real size, the terrain is nice to traverse.

tho it keeps spamming me with [10:18:42] You enter no known kingdom.

might have to set it to freedom or something

i think you can suicide and bury your corpse to drop a new altar

can i get hero status to fly around untill next reset? :P

OIg3RsA.jpg

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50 minutes ago, Aum said:

Wow this map is really epic, the biome work is beautiful and the mountains are stunning and feel like real size, the terrain is nice to traverse.

 

Perhaps TOO epic.  I think I may have to take a couple of steps to the drawing board.
 
I’m glad that I didn’t attempt this as a 32k map because after a weekend of attempting to do modelling within the world, I’ve come to the conclusion that a 16k map is simply too big!.  Moving the altars to more logical positions took close to 4 hours of flying (at GM flight speed).  As an experiment, I flew from Skara Brae to Britain and it took me over and hour and a half …. over terrain that was hideously samey.
 
I don’t believe the itself terrain is the problem here.  I did identify that despite using the TREE biome in the world builder, which should give a random distribution of tree types, all the forests ended up being composed of birch trees.  While that looks pretty, lacks variation and ends up being a bit boring with kilometres of rolling hills and birch forests.  I’m going to have to go back and rework them all so there is some variation.  This means manually placing specific forests types and using noise generation to add in the occasional random variants to make things interesting.
 
The other thing I need to so is shrink the world down to 8k.  I realise now why this is the largest size chosen by the Wurm Online team for their maps.  It’s still going to be very big, but at least it would be stupidly big.  A 16k map will probably sustain a population of thousands.  An 8k map will probably be too big for a Wurm Unlimited server, but my vision of a life sized Britannia needs to be tempered with what’s actually playable.  An 8k map will still feel epic in size … even at 32k a side.  To be honest, I think people would end up setting Skara Brae and the mainland coast just beyond that, but once you look over the first ridge, it gets dauntingly huge.  (It really puts into perspective the explorers Africa, Australia and the Americas of old.  MAN!)
 
To actually change the size, I’m still tossing up whether I need to regenerate the heightmap from scratch in World Machine or see if can just resize it in Photoshop.  I’m hoping I only need to do the latter because I don’t want to have to hand paint rivers again, but I have to make sure I don’t get any weird artifacting.  That’s going to affect how I redo the biomes; It took me close to a month and a half to manually paint.  If I can simply shrink the biome map, then all I need to do is some serious touch-up work.
 
It’s not a decision I’ve taken lightly, but I think it’s for the better.  I’ll leave the server up and running.  Feel free to jump on (it’s the “Britannia Reborn (PvE)” server) and you can get a taste of what it’s currently like.  Then imaging the distances halved.  You’ll see what I mean.
 
Ouch!
Edited by Lichbane

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so far im finding the distances really nice and thats why i like it, probably the only 16k map up atm, i didnt have a problem roping a horse and climbing to the top of the snow covered mountain from starting spawn

while it could use a bit of tundra and deserts and more types of trees/forests but its not terrable, i really like what you did with the rivers

you could resize it in photoshop im fairly certain, thats what i do with alot of mine, but i dont want you to x) it should stay as 16k !!

you can teleport as a gm to specified cords x y and you could add portals and some mods to make it nicer, still want to check out sailing

 

well i better get back to exploring before you shut it down x)

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... removed post due to weird formatting issues ...

Edited by Lichbane

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45 minutes ago, Aum said:

 

so far im finding the distances really nice and thats why i like it, probably the only 16k map up atm, i didnt have a problem roping a horse and climbing to the top of the snow covered mountain from starting spawn

while it could use a bit of tundra and deserts and more types of trees/forests but its not terrable, i really like what you did with the rivers

you could resize it in photoshop im fairly certain, thats what i do with alot of mine, but i dont want you to x) it should stay as 16k !!

you can teleport as a gm to specified cords x y and you could add portals and some mods to make it nicer, still want to check out sailing

 

well i better get back to exploring before you shut it down x)

 

I really appreciate the perspective of an experienced Wurm player actually.  You've turned me around and I'll stick with the size, though I will put some more varied biomes in.  There is Tundra already there in the far north, but it's not at all common.  There is a few deserts, but they are at the other end of the map .... and them of course there is the "Isle of the Avatar" as well (which of you know Ultima lore, is and interesting place (guess where the Unholy Altar is).  If you're familiar with the Ultima series, the map is very true to the game, with a few differences to make it interesting (the shrines have not fared well and the dungeons needs some ..... excavation.  It's a shame there's no way to create the dungeons using a drawing tool.  They are a lot of work to carve by hand).


I'll have to rebuild the heavily rework the biomes, which will be easier if I rebuild the server from scratch again.  I also have a few small islands dotted around hte place which need to be seriously shortened. They just look like pillars of rock with trees on top right now.  But all that's not a HUGE take (compared to a rebuild of the world).  While the biome and map editing will take much longer, the actual generation of the map in WGenerator takes about 8 hours (an overnight job).  If the moons align, I should have "Alpha 3" up next weekend.


Hopefully if  enough players are interested, it'll make the server of that size worth it.


Also ... tell me more about the portals.  I was wondering how I was going to do moongates and this seems to be a good solution.
 

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3 hours ago, Aum said:

 

Can i get hero status to fly around untill next reset? :P

 

 

Sure.  What's your character name.  I'd appreciate the feedback actually and any suggestions you may have.

 

Also, how are you finding the lag?  I'm running this out of home on a VDSL2 connection.  It should be able to handle it fine, but I'm not sure what the WU bandwidth requirements are.  Running a server this size on a hosting service would cost way too much as it's already pushing my server's 40Gb to the limits.

Edited by Lichbane

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eragon is the one, tho im exploring with friends atm on another toon,

we all really love the dry river beds and the landscape , how all the slopes are

 

the skillgain is nice for the size atm, dunno whatever its set at, you should post all the settings :P

 

deffinately needs a kingdom next restart cause you cant loot anything so no pelts

 

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2 hours ago, Aum said:

eragon is the one, tho im exploring with friends atm on another toon,

we all really love the dry river beds and the landscape , how all the slopes are

 

the skillgain is nice for the size atm, dunno whatever its set at, you should post all the settings :P

 

deffinately needs a kingdom next restart cause you cant loot anything so no pelts

 

 

Ok ... I'll fix the kingdom thing when I get home this evening (it's 13:40 here right now).  I'll set it to Kingdom 4 and change the name of the kingdom to be in line with the campaign lore outlined in the original post (on page 1).EDIT: I'll remote in and do the server bounce now.  Bear in mind 16k servers take a LONG time to shut down and restart.  The whole process should take 30min (as long as I don't get sidetracked or called into a meeting) :P

 

Skillgain is standard for WU (10), but players start with 20 in fighting and 15 for other skills.  Let me know if you think that is too much.

Edited by Lichbane

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Awesome map ! The huge scale allows for decent terrain, rather than everything feeling cramped in together. Trying to create a landscape that feels immersive on a small map is limited to tiny little islands, or everything feels unrealistic. I love the cliff-side beaches, the dry water-courses and the feel of real erosion at work that this creates. The use of moss, gravel and sand is awesome, as is finding clay in dry-deltas where you might expect to find clay ! I don't find that it being mostly birch is immersion-breaking at this point. It's a nice tree-type; light and airy, and it doesn't blot everything out. If there could only be one tree-type on the map, that would be the one I would go for. I was especially impressed with the dry rapids / waterfalls, and the general cliff-shaping. These immense hills are mostly climbable without difficulty, making exploring on horseback extremely fun, and the sheer distances involved make traveling on horseback meaningful ! Looking forward to exploring further.

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Thanks guys.  Awesome screenies!!  I love them!

 

I'll be doing a rebuild before probably towards the end of the week to put some variation into the forests and add some additional biomes as well.  Based on feedback so far, that's as far as I'll take the changes.  

 

The problem with the Birch is that it's almost EVERYWHERE.  The Northern Forests are pine, but there's a good reason for that (The place is not called Yew for nothing).  My plan is to:

  • Manually large swathes of different forest types over the simple TREE biomes (like TREE_BIRCH, TREE_CEDAR, TREE_CHESTNUT, TREE_FIR, TREE_LINDEN, TREE_MAPLE, TREE_PINE and TREE_WALNUT) and use noise generation to put a mix of the occasional random tree type in each forest.
  • Put a smattering of fruit bearing trees such as TREE_APPLE, TREE_OLIVE, TREE_LEMON and TREE_CHERRY all over the place.
  • Use noise generation to replace some REEDS with TREE_WILLOW.
  • Vary some of the Grass Biomes to add some variety.  The occasional sandy area and areas infected by "the blight" (I can't remember what the fungus is called).  That should be enough to break the endless green.

After that, I think it should be ok to go.

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12 hours of exploring later and its all beautiful, havent even gotten 10km from spawn yet :P to tired but ill upload pics tmrw

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Only one complaint. There's no snow up on this ridge-line, even though your map showed snow at this height. Any chance of an updated map file ?

 

Other than that, totally awesome !! So pleased that getting my Mountain Goat Achievement felt so realistic. Will sort screenshots tomorrow, got some truly epic pics even if my render distance doesn't do the view full justice.

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7 hours ago, Drayka said:

Only one complaint. There's no snow up on this ridge-line, even though your map showed snow at this height.

 

That's actually deliberate.  The further south you go,  the more temperate the climate.  The same applies the further north you go.  Snow begins to settle at lower altitudes on peaks.  You are right though. The southern peaks need something.  Steppe is an appropriate ground cover for temperate high level peaks at lower latitudes. 

 

I plan to have vegetation change depending on latitude.  Hardy pines and firs are in the north.  Those associated with warmer climate (like olives)  more common to the south.  I really wish there were palms and jungle plants, but we work with what we have.   And having snow during winter in tropical climes wouldn't work.  That's where I guess this version of Britannia differs from that in the original Ultima series. Put it down to a change in climate invoked by whatever forces brought it back after the Armageddon a millennia ago.  Who knows?  Perhaps there will be hints in game? 

 

The exception to those general rules are the small patches of desert in odd places, but those are there for very specific reasons (and again I'll leave hints about that in game too ... ). 

 

I'm glad your enjoying it.  More to come. 

Edited by Lichbane

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A question: How deep is the dirt in general? I would like at least 150..200 dirt, 'cause terraforming is one of the pleasures wurm gives.

 

The map size pleases me too, good for sailors. When steam finally gets into real sales I'll choose a big pve map with lots of dirt, build a boat and move far way into a world of my own.

 

Big deeds and wide perimeters too, one more wish.

 

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2 hours ago, www said:

A question: How deep is the dirt in general? I would like at least 150..200 dirt, 'cause terraforming is one of the pleasures wurm gives

 

Dirt was set at 40 deep with land slide set, which was the default for the generator.  As it stands you can still Terraform 'till your heart's content, though you may need to transport some dirt from elsewhere if you don't have enough.  I wanted to make sure there was a balance of arable land and exposed rock to satisfy farmers and miners alike. 

 

However, do some trial and error runs to see how high I can get it without adversely affecting the biome map.  I may need to take down the server earlier than planned though as running the server and running the generator take a lot of memory (around 40Gb), so it's either one or the other.  Map generation takes a lot of time (about 2 hours to drop dirt alone).  I'm planning on doing at about 3 runs of the process to get the biomes right, so I'll try and weave extra dirt drops into there and ... *fingers crossed*. :)

Edited by Lichbane

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need an updated mapdump ;P thought there was gonna be snow in the south ridges too. but its still kinda nice as it is, a bit of snow/steppe wouldnt hurt

ive been to the north, you could use tundra to fade into the snow there if you wanted aswell

 

im familiar with the dirt problem, and the jagged slopes, using cliff ratio. what ive figured out is increasing the max sloped and diagonal slopes to about 70-80 lets you increase the dirt to 120 without getting crazy jaggedness, but i dunno how it would turn out for traversing on this map, not to mention it would take a while just to test, and really there is enough land to make the perfect spot on this map, im in favor of the current settings as is.

over every hill and around every corner is a breathtaking view

 

as for game settings, I'm  for quicker action timers and increased skillgain, as there are alot more servers and alot less time to play it all, and time is precious

epic code is nice in this case, as you become effective 50 after a few actions. if you were gonna ditch it i would up the gains alot so it equals out

and the starting skills are pretty much perfect, maybe more ml or bs

really like that it only takes around 9 hits to break a wall, coupled with quicker timers this makes mining actually enjoyable

 

hope youll add all the good mods too =P

 

Map of where we went: btw guys you have to swim over to the mainland to explore, dont carry more than 13.5 kg's for the swim ;P make sure you see the trees on the other side

n8de4mo.png

 

Album of screenies

http://imgur.com/a/vNHKR

 

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2 hours ago, Aum said:


need an updated mapdump ;P thought there was gonna be snow in the south ridges too. but its still kinda nice as it is, a bit of snow/steppe wouldnt hurt

ive been to the north, you could use tundra to fade into the snow there if you wanted aswell

 

 

I've already extended the tundra further south by about 10km so I can do exactly that.  I've modelled the climate based on my own antipodean frame of reference; it's based heavily on Southern Australia (the southern portion of the continent) and the South Island of New Zealand (the northern portion).  There are some exceptions, but as I said earlier, there is an in game reason for the those.

I've left a lot of these at default because I didn't know any better.  I'll try doubling the skill gain/action multiplier and bump Mind Logic and Body control to 30.  We can see how that goes.  It's already on Epic, so no need to change there.

 

Quote

im familiar with the dirt problem, and the jagged slopes, using cliff ratio. what ive figured out is increasing the max sloped and diagonal slopes to about 70-80 lets you increase the dirt to 120 without getting crazy jaggedness, but i dunno how it would turn out for traversing on this map, not to mention it would take a while just to test, and really there is enough land to make the perfect spot on this map, im in favor of the current settings as is.
over every hill and around every corner is a breathtaking view

 

I'm using an imported heightmap as the basis for the map, so max height is the only parameter that affects the map generation.  All the map features are fixed in concrete.  Where the complication comes in is dropping more dirt on the heightmap.  The more dirt, the more slides down the mountainsides and breaks the transition between the rock and the already painted forests.

 

But I understand the attraction of terraforming too, so I'll try doubling the existing dirt height and see what the impact is and then work back from there if I have to.  It does mean that rock will be inaccessible on some lowlands.  The water table needs to be raised as well and people will hit water well before they hit rock.  As you've already seen though, that shouldn't be too much a problem. Just move to the mainland and there is plenty of land to build that will be way above the water table.  Even the hilly forests on northern Skara Brae (the starter island) are high enough, though you may need to do a lot of clearing first.
 

Quote

as for game settings, I'm  for quicker action timers and increased skillgain, as there are alot more servers and alot less time to play it all, and time is precious
epic code is nice in this case, as you become effective 50 after a few actions. if you were gonna ditch it i would up the gains alot so it equals out
and the starting skills are pretty much perfect, maybe more ml or bs

 

I've left a lot of these at default because I didn't know any better.  I'll try doubling the skill gain/action multiplier and bump Mind Logic and Body control to 30.  We can see how that goes.  It's already on Epic, so no need to change there.

 

Quote

really like that it only takes around 9 hits to break a wall, coupled with quicker timers this makes mining actually enjoyable

 

 

Yeah.  I watched some videos on Wurm ("lets play" I think they were) and the guy mentioned it was 51 hits to break rock.  My reaction was pretty much "WTF?!" So I dropped it down heaps. 
 

Quote

hope youll add all the good mods too =P

 

 

I'm still coming to grips with the base game right now.  Running this server is actually my first Wurm experience.  I'd like to run some mods, but I'd like to introduce them slowly and they absolutely must not break a game in progress.  Server wipes are the death of a game.

 

Awesome screenies, BTW.  It's cool to see people exploring and not really knowing what's around the corner.

Edited by Lichbane

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Lichbane is there any chance you could post a higher resolution map dump? We're exploring the server, but the map you posted is very low detail. :)

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29 minutes ago, DKSprocket said:

Lichbane is there any chance you could post a higher resolution map dump? We're exploring the server, but the map you posted is very low detail. :)

 

Have a read of the Lore on page 1. Essentially you guys are the scouts reporting back with knowledge based on ancient outdated maps. 

 

After the server is up, running and stable,  I'll be begin server events that will encourage exploration.  So you'll be relying on the knowledge you gain and not the knowledge you've been given.

 

I'd be keeping the map you've there and making copies.  You'll need to make notes. ;):D

 

Oh,  and feel free to look up maps of Ultima on the internet. They will likely prove useful. 

Edited by Lichbane
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Ok.  I've updated the initial post to give an update, but just to repeat here, the server will be coming down 4 Feb at 6am (UTC) for a few days.  I can't provide an exact timing when the server will return, but I'm aiming for it to be available for the weekend.  

 

Note: This will result in a FULL WIPE of the server.

 

The changes planned include:

  • Variations to forests (not just Birch as the default tree type)
  • Extension to Tundra in the north and steppes on the mountaintops in the south as it's more temperate climate.
  • Some additional biomes "odd" placed for campaign reasons.  These will lead into some in-game quests.
  • Attempt to raise dirt from 40 to around 80 to allow for greater terraforming.
  • Using a server launcher capable of supporting mods.

In the meantime, the server has the following characteristics:

  • Skill gain and action timer are both x10
  • Starter Mind Logic and Body control are 30
  • Starter Characteristics are 25
  • Starter Fight Skill is 20
  • Starter Skills are 15

Please feel free to continue scouting  the countryside.

 

Could you please provide feedback on:

  1. The effects of the Action Timer and Skill gain.  How well does that work?
  2. Is looting still a problem?  I've modified the home kingdom, so I'm hoping that problem is solved.
  3. Is lag an issue?  I'm running this from home and would like to know if latency is an issue for players.

 

Edited by Lichbane

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13 hours ago, Lichbane said:

 I watched some videos on Wurm ("lets play" I think they were) and the guy mentioned it was 51 hits to break rock.

That was Gamester4life who has a large series of Wurm tutorials now (and has even just done a little series on making videos for youtube for those who have never done videos before). The game default is indeed 51, but you can change that if you are running your own server. I believe that is the same value as Wurm Online but not certain. I use 21 on my own private servers usually.

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action timer is very enjoyable , skill gain seems perfect imo, with epic code anyways, which means you skills are effectivly 20+  this leads to getting 50ql gear pretty quick

which in turn makes exploring a pleasure if the views werent already enough x). it will be nice for people who start and want to get far away, you are able to attack and skill up fighting right away, so long as you choose you target wisely, aka dont go for that champ lava spider...

 

looting / deeding / freedom/gl chat is fixed for new players (showing up as Britannia)

my old player still has no kingdom so he is in enemy lands, (wont matter after wipe x)

 

my lowest pinging server is 650 and britannia is at around 850

yeah im not the best person to answer this question... im on satellite internet in the US

tho im pretty used to it so i dont even notice a difference

 

there is some desync after traveling for a while but thats kind of standard for larger maps, and i dunno if thats just me or what but its not a big deal for me personally

just relog like regular wurm x)

 

 


,

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Thanks for answering those questions.

 

I've been planning forest distribution based on real world data.  I've also looked into mods as well; implementation will be easier than I thought.

 

I'll be putting together a weebly site with some information about the world, lore, roadmap for what mods I put in and so on.  Damn!  I may even need a backup strategy! ;)

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