FOUNTAIN-PAN REVISION - CLOSES NOV 1st

[LorraineJ 1,099]

I think it's disgusting to change items after people have spent a lot of money on them. (I do not own a fountain pan, btw, I'm just putting myself in these peoples' shoes.) Rename them if you want or make them look different, but do not mess with their functionality now that they've been bought and sold. That's a form of bait and switch and it's a damn bad PR thing to do. If people were willing to invest that much money into your game, don't be ingrates and mess with the situation. Jealous haters are always gonna hate; you can't make business decisions based on people resenting that other people were willing to drop good cash into your game. They're not losing anything. The investors are if you kill the pans. No one's game is being ruined by the existence of fountain pans.

[Fooligun 591]

You said there are 600 fountain-pans in existence, however does this include fountain-backpacks or fountain-satchels in the number? Because I own about 8 of these items and a friend of mine own several more. At present, Wurm Online has 4571 players registered as premium, so more than 1 in 10 people have one of these (assuming even distribution) and should NOT be counted as a rarity. Also, while it may "seem" insignificant to some, and potentially deserves removing, if just the 600 containers are removed, you are talking about 48,000 euros of items going poof (assuming 80 euro's each)

End of the day though, I use this so I don't have to waste what little precious time I have when playing a GAME, being a chore repairing my items, because a 5 item bank is virtually useless, so any replacement which serves this purpose is potentially okay to me, however removing these and not providing better ways of preventing item decay on-deed, in containers without using tonnes of merchants hampers playing Wurm Online to a chore for me.

[Nomadikhan 2,196]

Neighsayers call it overpowered, I call it convienence.   Don't patronize me because I have the spare cash to pay for it.  This game is getting to a point I don't understand why I still login,

[enoofu 206]

You said there are 600 fountain-pans in existence, however does this include fountain-backpacks or fountain-satchels in the number? Because I own about 8 of these items and a friend of mine own several more. At present, Wurm Online has 4571 players registered as premium, so more than 1 in 10 people have one of these (assuming even distribution) and should NOT be counted as a rarity. Also, while it may "seem" insignificant to some, and potentially deserves removing, if just the 600 containers are removed, you are talking about 48,000 euros of items going poof (assuming 80 euro's each)

End of the day though, I use this so I don't have to waste what little precious time I have when playing a GAME, being a chore repairing my items, because a 5 item bank is virtually useless, so any replacement which serves this purpose is potentially okay to me, however removing these and not providing better ways of preventing item decay on-deed, in containers without using tonnes of merchants hampers playing Wurm Online to a chore for me.

Guessing no more then 10-25% of Fountain bags/pans ever hit the market, mainly do to convenience they offer and most Wurm players don't usually like selling stuff publicly

 

Their is people that claim to own more then 20 and most people have Zero

 

 

A Dev Stated 3 years which started a firestorm then that the Developers didn't like these items, from my understanding it made it harder to code since these items are in a bugged and unintended state, which is based on old coding, and make it more difficult to test builds since these items aren't craft-able no more and are repeatable nest-able

[Reylaark 1,100]

Removing them would be a good idea because they are the cause of a bug

Hi,

 

Can you expand on this?  I understand these items are the result of a bug, but I understand your statement above as saying they are currently contributing to a bug?

 

Edit:

from my understanding it made it harder to code since these items are in a bugged and unintended state, which is based on old coding, and make it more difficult to test builds since these items aren't craft-able no more and are repeatable nest-able

Ah...  Guess that answers my question.

 

Replace these items in ppl's inventory with a spyglass?  Does that have similar value on the market?

 

I can see wanting to be nice for the people who are upset about losing a bugged item they paid some random other player with no affiliation for the gaming company RL money.

 

Code Club should always do what is best for their code though, only way to move forward.

Ultimately, sale of in-game items are not the responsibility of the gaming company.

The seller is at fault for not making the risk clear at time of purchase.

Edited October 27, 2015 by Reylaark

[topkos 504]

Mamadarkness.. What is the bug that fountain containers cause ? In order to give my opinion I think you should give full information...I need to know how that bug affects my game.

 

And just renaming this item will take care of that bug? Or as I suspect, the solution of renaming it and leaving it as now, will keep the bug permanently and the bug will become too a legacy artifact?

Edited October 27, 2015 by topkos

[geode 292]

For the record, I own 5 such items and paid 40 euro for 4 and 50euro for 1, I also keep them inside a large magic chest I bought for 50s from a trader.   I paid a total of 360 euro for this.  I paid for convienence.

 

 

For christ sakes just leave them alone.

 

Mamdarkness, I'm you're OP wasn't worded the best and was unsettling..  Mentioned that there are two sides of the arguement, one side that owns them and the other.... the other?  You mean the other that doesn't own them and can't afford the euro to buy them?  I refuse to accept change based on the whining of people that cannot afford a legacy item.   Yes, the item is an anomoly and a bit OP... and it's priced by the community accordingly.

 

Why are we having this discussion at all?

 

 

Have the people against such items given a good reason for why they should be removed?  And, of those how many are owners of said items?

 

I have the feeling it's a jealousy issue more then a game balance issue.  Just sayin'.

 

Stop bothering us with solutions to problems that are brought by people that can't or won't pay euro for convienence.

 

I can explain why I personally am against these fountain "it's smaller on the inside" backpack/pan/box/whatever they used things. It's to me an obvious misuse of game mechanics. I can afford 10 of the stupid things if I wanted to. It's not about money, it never was with me. I don't want to spend any money on them because.... they are EXPLOITS. The Devs made their opinions on these known years ago. These things circomvent some of the Decay mechanic and there is valid gameplay and design reasons why the Decay mechanic should not be bypassed. That is why Irefuse to own or use one.

 

It's not about money or jealousy. My own sense of right and wrong, as well as my understanding of the game rules, tell me these things are bad for the game. As far as I'm concerned... the discussion about whether they should stay or not is already answered. They need to go.

 

.

Edited October 27, 2015 by geode

[Xalorum 766]

I don't care what you call it, if it fixes your bug and does the same thing it does now, I'm on board.

[madnezz 555]

My own sense of right and wrong, as well as my understanding of the game rules, tell me these things are bad for the game. As far as I'm concerned... the discussion about whether they should stay or not is already answered. They need to go.

 

After reading the replies to this thread your sense of right and wrong appears to be wrong.

Edited October 27, 2015 by madnezz

[Aeryck 862]

This is a simple question in my mind; is the function they serve a desired in-game ability? If not, then remove them completely and feel really sorry for everyone who bought one. If it is a desired ability, then replace them with something which still provides the same ability but does not bend whatever laws of physics that they bend so that the world can exist harmoniously.

 

If you want to keep them around in true Wurm form then add a new skill, "Fountain Containery". Make anyone who wants to use one grind it to 70 first.

[As_I_Decay 1,592]

Lol. All this nonsense to appease a bunch of people who spent money on buying a bugged item.

What's completely ridiculous about this is that you all (wurm team) had no problem or cause for concern when you destroyed the spyglass market (to which many people may have invested serious amounts of money into).    

[Retrograde 12,013]

HI everyone,

 

Just to clarify, this discussion isnt about the nature of these containers or how they should have been handled in the past, our goal here is to work with you to achieve a balance in which their obvious advantage is countered.

 

We have provided some initial ideas, such as those listed on the original post and would like to hear your feedback on those, or suggestions as to other ways they could be brought in line with things, without opening up other possible areas for overpowered or unbalanced items.

[whereami 564]

I see absolutely no point in making them un movable. That would seriously defeat the purpose of a legacy item at that point, especially one that heavy, because you could never pass it on or resell it to someone else.

 

Keep them in the game, rename them or whatever, just don't change their functionality. Feel free to buff LMC's if the situation really calls for it. But IF they ARE removed I really hope you plan on reimbursing the accounts that own these with at LEAST 1 LMC per fountain lost because otherwise a lot of people are going to be pretty pissed at the amount of money you are litterally making go *POOF* right now.

 

EDIT: Nomadikhan put it very nicely actually. Why are we even having this discussion at all? There are so many things that Code Club could be using its valuable dev time for instead of needlessly screwing over a portion of its own (dwindling) playerbase. How about spending some time looking into the suggestions board for a little bit of insight on changes people actually WANT to see implemented. Like titles for chiefs or HMM MAYBE FIXING THE 7 YEAR OLD SHIELDBASHING BUG?

Edited October 27, 2015 by whereami

[topkos 504]

HI everyone,

 

Just to clarify, this discussion isnt about the nature of these containers or how they should have been handled in the past, our goal here is to work with you to achieve a balance in which their obvious advantage is countered.

 

We have provided some initial ideas, such as those listed on the original post and would like to hear your feedback on those, or suggestions as to other ways they could be brought in line with things, without opening up other possible areas for overpowered or unbalanced items.

Sorry you don't give complete info in the matter in order for me to give you my civilized input. You are hiding from us what the bug is that this container is causing. It doesn't matter to me how is should be handled, how OP or UB they are and how much is abused or how many players own them.. My point is, they are, according to Mamadarkness causing a bug. Is that bug going to be fixed if you keep em in game?

[Pashka 707]

I see alot of people talking about the forge and such.  Some people simply use them as containers.  They are not in a forge.  Yes mine are pans so they could go into a forge but that isn't what i used mine for.  If you want to rename them and say ok never again will these be made, fine.  I see no reason that if I move to another server that I shouldn't be able to take them with me when I move.  I know that the figure that is being thrown around here is low.  I know that these have had at least one window of opportunity to make since I have played.  They weren't supposed to be but that window did happen.  I know many people made well alot of them at that time.  Personally I'm getting tired of being on just because I have played and supported this game for a long while.

[Kegan 3,926]

There is no way to balance them unless you put something in that can do the same thing they do and the main thing they do is allow people to store loads of things with no decay. The only way to combat that is to add decay to anything in a fountain regardless if it is in a magic chest or not. 

[Retrograde 12,013]

Sorry you don't give complete info in the matter in order for me to give you my civilized input. You are hiding from us what the bug is that this container is causing. It doesn't matter to me how is should be handled, how OP or UB they are and how much is abused or how many players own them.. My point is, they are, according to Mamadarkness causing a bug. Is that bug going to be fixed if you keep em in game?

 

They are not causing a bug at all, they are the result of an old bug regarding unfinished items and being finished inside containers.

 

This has nothing to do with any bug they cause, simply addressing them as a whole and bringing them into balance now that we have replacements for carrying large capacity liquids

[topkos 504]

 

Hello everyone,

 

It's time we try and sort out this fountain-pan situation in an orderly manner.

 

There are two camps here: People who think fountain in smaller containers are a good thing (usually the owners) and people who strongly dislikes them and want them removed.

 

Removing them would be a good idea because they are the cause of a bug and they go above and beyond some fairly balanced restrictions on containers. Today they can only be acquired by purchasing from other players who abused the bug or have purchased them since.

 

 

 

 

Perfect.  So i guess that the OP needs to correct that.

Now the question is why you trying to fix something that is not breaking anything? They are not causing a bug. they are a bug themselves. But they been there all these years, and I'm sorry, (and I don't have one) removing them from game now makes no sense whatsoever, keep em in game, change the name to something more wurmian...and let get over with this.

[Kadore 926]

They are not causing a bug at all, they are the result of an old bug regarding unfinished items and being finished inside containers.

 

This has nothing to do with any bug they cause, simply addressing them as a whole and bringing them into balance now that we have replacements for carrying large capacity liquids

 So after 7 years or so you guys get off your ass to fix an issue you prevented from being created after the horses ran out of the barn, now to go full circle you need to remove items for the ability to say " we fixed the issue once and for all" ?

[Retrograde 12,013]

Perfect.  So i guess that the OP needs to correct that.

Now the question is why you trying to fix something that is not breaking anything? They are not causing a bug. they are a bug themselves. But they been there all these years, and I'm sorry, (and I don't have one) removing them from game now makes no sense whatsoever, keep em in game, change the name to something more wurmian...and let get over with this.

I guess the correct phrasing would be they are the result of a bug, not the cause of a bug, as for the rest, that's the aim of this thread.

 

 

 So after 7 years or so you guys get off your ass to fix an issue you prevented from being created after the horses ran out of the barn, now to go full circle you need to remove items for the ability to say " we fixed the issue once and for all" ?

Now that large barrels, huge tubs and amphoras can be lifted and filled with large amounts of liquids, the major reason for fountain containers remaining ingame is replaced in functionality, our goal here is to work out how to bring them into line without simply removing the item from players who spent silver or real life money on these items

[Pashka 707]

They have not been replaced except in one capacity.  I have never painted a large boat or anything else for that matter.  I use them for storage.  I want to keep them.

 

My vote.  RENAME and LEAVE in game as is.

[Kadore 926]

I guess the correct phrasing would be they are the result of a bug, not the cause of a bug, as for the rest, that's the aim of this thread.

 

 

Now that large barrels, huge tubs and amphoras can be lifted and filled with large amounts of liquids, the major reason for fountain containers remaining ingame is replaced in functionality, our goal here is to work out how to bring them into line without simply removing the item from players who spent silver or real life money on these items

 So you have 3 items that do the same thing but 4 is too many, again, the whole premise to this is continuity to the bug fixing process begun at the start of summer, which in reality was a covert operation to bug fix the game to release WU, not really a desire to improve WO except as a side effect, unless I am just so far out in left field.

[Kegan 3,926]

Now that large barrels, huge tubs and amphoras can be lifted and filled with large amounts of liquids, the major reason for fountain containers remaining ingame is replaced in functionality, our goal here is to work out how to bring them into line without simply removing the item from players who spent silver or real life money on these items

If you make them a new item then the same item needs to be for sale on the traders too. I would rather them be something completely new and i would prefer them not to be in a pan..etc just a new item that holds loads of things. 

 

The players that have them now don't lose theirs and new players can buy them too that way. 

Edited October 27, 2015 by Kegan

[geode 292]

After reading the replies to this thread your sense of right and wrong appears to be wrong.

 

Replies and opinions on forum boards do not determine what is "right and wrong". Even if everyone thinks otherwise.

 

But I will also say this... I've spent more time thinking about this now... this whole situation I think should have been dealt with in an official manner YEARS ago and that responsibility lies with Rolf and Staff. Players aren't the only ones that "should have known better". For Years now I wondered when this penny was going to drop.  As much as I see the use of these items as an Exploit that any Player should have avoided I also see the Staff's failure to attend to this matter in a timely fashion as just as much of a issue.  

 

Compensation for removal of this item from the game would go a long ways towards easing the transistion of Wurm with Fountain-Pans to Wurm without Fountain-Pans, and since Staff did not resolve this when they should have Staff (CodeClub) should pick up the tab. I don't think CodeClub should compensate full real life money value since that value is determined by Players and not Devs, but CodeClub I think should compensate the owners of these in some manner with a useful ingame item as replacement. Compensation per Player, and not per Item.

Edited October 27, 2015 by geode

[whereami 564]

If you make them a new item then the same item needs to be for sale on the traders too. I would rather them be something completely new and i would prefer them not to be in a pan..etc just a new item that holds loads of things. 

 

The players that have them now don't lose theirs and new players can buy them too that way. 

 

What part of  Legacy Item did you miss?

 

By the current sound of things I think Code Club wants as few of these floating around as possible. Plus that would tank the value for these items even if the trader price was the same as current market value. That would be the same to everyone as removing the items completely because the silver value is still lost. That's what most people care about.

Edited October 27, 2015 by whereami