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DKSprocket

Possibility of balancing priests without overnerfing Nahjo

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First of all - this is a starting point for a debate, not a specific suggestion set in stone. I'm sure the specifics can be improved - this is just to get the ball rolling and to give our devs an alternative to simply nerfing Nahjo priests. This is also the reason I'm posting it here and not in the suggestions forum, but the mods are of course welcome to move it. :)

 

The reason for this post is because the devs have stated they are considering nerfing Nahjo priests.

 

Core Assumption: Nahjo priests should not be nerfed too much. There was a good time to balance Nahjo to make it fit the balance of the old priests, but that time was 5 months ago. Since then people have re-grinded faith to high levels, some have bought/sold characters and some casual players have started a priest which they otherwise wouldn't have. Instead of nerfing Nahjo give the other priests a boost in PvE.

 

Assumption: Nahjo hasn't broken PvP balance (as far as I know), so this balancing will focus on PvE abilities. Hopefully the changes can work on both PvE and PvP servers.

 

Assumption: It is ok to "hardcode" some priest abilities even if this doesn't fit entirely within the player god framework.

 

Assumption: It is acceptable to add a bit more overlap between the priest abilities since this has already happened with the player gods (especially Najho).

 

 

1 - Make sure the roles of the gods are clearly defined. No big changes here, just some small tweaks.

 

Nahjo: Good at everything, but master of none. Difficulty: casual

 

Fo: Master of nature and healing. Difficulty: casual

 

Magnaron: Mastery of the body and combat. Difficulty: medium

 

Vynora: Master of the arcane. Difficulty: hard

 

 

2 - Allow the old gods more abilities to bring them in line with Nahjo having both mining and woodcutting.

 

Magnaron: Add digging since this fits with the body domain. They could possibly even get woodcutting and paving as well since they are body skills and Magnaron's PvE relevance is somewhat limited.

 

Fo: Add woodcutting since this relates to nature (perhaps limit it to very old and overaged trees to fit the lore).

 

Vynora: Add alchemy and natural substances since mixing potions fits with arcane abilities. They could get mining or digging as well, but that doesn't seem to fit the lore that well (and I am not sure they need as big a boost as Mag and Fo).

 

Nahjo: No changes.

 

 

3 - Boost favor from sacrificing for the old gods.

 

First of all double the core price of the current "double" favor items (to the level of cordage ropes). That way people who already grinded the relevant skills won't get nerfed and existing items in stock will still be as useful as before.

 

Secondly make their new sacrifice items something that fits the lore and require skills that don't take improving to raise efficiently (which makes little sense when they're not allowed to improve).

 

Fo: Make vegetables (HC items) their favor item like Nahjo (unless this breaks healing in PvP). It fits the lore and I have a hard time seeing how it would make them unbalanced for PvE. They'd be able to mass produce sprouts, but that's about it.

 

Vynora: Some alchemy or natural substances item. Healing covers or healing salves would work, but perhaps not the most lore appropriate. Healing salves would give a use for all the animal fat sitting in our bsbs.

 

Magnaron: Door locks still works fine since locksmithing doesn't take improving to skill up. If the core price of door locks is doubled they'd still see a nice boost (unless this breaks pvp). An alternative could be metallurgy lumps since this would fit the lore better than door locks.

 

Nahjo: No changes to favor item.

 

Optional nerf: I think most people will agree that sacrificing vegetables is currently extremely powerful. If the favor gain from this was reduced by 50% it would still be really good, so I think that could be an option (but it's a significant nerf).

 

 

4 - Spell tweaks

 

This is going to be controversial, so please don't take it for more than an initial suggestion that is open for debate. It includes a bit of nerfing of Nahjo, but this could be omitted.

 

Vynora: Since they are masters of enchanting it would make sense they get Life Transfer since it's by far the best enchant for that slot.

 

Magnaron: Add Frostbrand since it's a damage dealing enchant. Improving Mole Sense to be more useful would be nice, but that's another discussion (making it work like "analyze" above ground would be awesome). 

 

Fo: Give them some more utility spells. Oppulence, Light Token and Reveal Creatures/Settlements would fit well with the lore. Dominate and True Hit are also possibilities.

 

Nahjo: Optionally remove some of the enchanting spells that aren't top tier. Possible enchants to remove could be the Demise spells, Lurker in the Dark and maybe Aura of Shared Pain. Do not remove Wind of Ages, Courier or Lifetransfer since these were major selling points for the people picking the class.

 

More changes could probably be made to PvP spells, but I don't know enough about that to make any suggestions there.


 


(Apologies if I made any mistakes about current priest abilities, some of it is quoted from memory)


Edited by DKSprocket
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I haven't finished reading but I read vynora gets alchemy and I wanted to say

THANK YOU!!!!!

(This will be edited after I stop freaking out)

Alright, so I wouldn't say giving more enchants to vyn personally - especially LT - (we still have a huge advantage with CoC.. Well, not advantage, but a selling point)

Having the alchemy/ns as a sac item for vyn? I've been dieing for priest (or at least vyn) to get alchemy because I see it as a priest skill. Even arguing at times they should get SD for it (I'm fine with them not)

Your bloody making me want to die for that change alone, I doubt we will ever see anything like that, but I'd +1 the crap out of that all day any day.

Fo getting WC on older trees makes sense, mag getting WC somewhat does, though I'm not sure on digging and paving... I'll leave that up to others.

Won't comment on Fo or mags spells at this point, because I don't really know what they need in that deperament. Just know Vynora is doing alright without LT, and I'd see having that as possibly making vyn OP. (And making Fo less of a desirable choice)

As for merging Nahjo any. Depends completely on how good new favor items are with any of these changes, and I personally feel there spells are fine.

Just my opinions, but +1 (mostly because I want bloody alchemy...take my money. All of it.

Edited by Druidnature

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+1 to buff.. i was saying the same thing an hour ago


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+1 to most of this. Though there are two things I disagree with. The first (as a long time vyn priest owner) is for vynora to get Life Transfer. Vynora is already king when it comes to tool enchants (CoC and Woa), even Nahjo doesn't have CoC. I don't feel that Vynora should also become superb at enchanting weapons by giving her LT.


Secondly I can't say that I agree with the description of Nahjo, "Good at everything" feels like an exaggeration as for enchanting tools he's average at best as he has no CoC, which is by far the most important enchant there. Nahjo also isn't anything special for armor as he only has AoSP, he doesn't have web armour. So below average at tools (by far the biggest enchanting market) and nothing special for armor. I honestly can't call that "Good at everything" with a straight face. Nahjo seems to excel in enchanting weapons (LT at least) and in utility (courier, strongwall, genesis) and in his sacrifice/favor mechanic, but is there really anything exceptional about him besides that?


Edited by Ecrir
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+1 to most of this. One thing I disagree with (as a long time vyn priest owner) is for vynora to get Life Transfer. Vynora is already king when it comes to tool enchants (CoC and Woa), even Nahjo doesn't have CoC (which is why I don't agree that he's good at everything. For enchanting tools he's average at best). I don't feel that Vynora should also become superb at enchanting weapons by giving her LT.

You put that a lot better then I did. Lol.

Edit: why isn't this in suggestions? :o

Edited by Druidnature

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Lets be honest there, the biggest imbalance is the favor. You can't have a priest casting hard spells (120 favor - linking required) for 1/10 of the favor price.


 


If you want to get things balanced on a PvE side. Make all kind of favor as easilly obtainable (be it by tweaking the values... or removing the mosts OPs).


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Lol.


 


-1


 


Can we not change everything about the game we dislike, and actually fix real problems like meditation?


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Lets be honest there, the biggest imbalance is the favor. You can't have a priest casting hard spells (120 favor - linking required) for 1/10 of the favor price.

 

If you want to get things balanced on a PvE side. Make all kind of favor as easilly obtainable (be it by tweaking the values... or removing the mosts OPs).

 

For highlevel players that mainly care about enchanting and channeling grind then sacrificing is certainly the biggest issue by far, but not it's no the only PvE issue. Currently there's literally zero reasons to have a Magnaron priest and Fo priests are reduced to a very narrow niche. For casual players this has a bigger impact than sacrificing for favor.

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Lol.

 

-1

 

Can we not change everything about the game we dislike, and actually fix real problems like meditation?

 

The reason for this is because the devs have stated they are considering nerfing Nahjo priests. I've added that to the post.

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Lol.

-1

Can we not change everything about the game we dislike, and actually fix real problems like meditation?

With that arguements I can say meditation is perfectly fine as is, and can we fix real problems like priest...

How about fixing all problems? Why do we need to tell the devs which ones first? (They don't listen anyway)

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+1.  Good suggestions.  Instead of penalizing people with Nahjo priests who put in work for 5 months, how about fixing the other priests and balancing it.


Edited by Kruggan

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Mag priests get a FS boost and can wear armour, which (AFAIK) Nachos do not.  Nacho gets the lowest heal spell, which is really utility level, if you want to mass heal or cure disease, you still need a Fo.  And as stated, you still need a Vyn (or Nathan) if you want CoC, which is by far the most used tool enchant.  So there's still some utility in the other gods.


 


An easy fix for the favour-item-is-OP issue is making alchemy items give half the favour Nachos get to the other priests.  So a Vyn could sacrifice 90QL corn for 4.5 favour per.  I totally agree with buffing the others rather than nerfing Nacho.


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Pretty much the only thing with what mag could make a dime in PVE was Strongwall. Now, why would you have a Magranon? With a Nahjo you can travel and do Strongwall and use the travel to do some Couriers too.


 


Give Magranon some other spells to make some copper or take Strongwall out of Nahjo.


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Sorry, but I'm still not convinced Nahjo is OP.  I will agree that Mag needs some serious love.  I find it almost poetic that Nahjo priests use a Magranon statuette, because they quite literally are Mag's replacement in current form.


 


Nahjo has been great for the economy for a host of reasons.  Primarily, it has given new and veteran players a bigger interest in priesting.  That means more subscriptions and a bigger following.  The enchanting market has become more competitive, people are buying crops a little bit more frequently, and of course, people are starting to look for panfillers again.


 


Nerf Nahjo and you nerf your own pocket book, Rolf.  That's a fact.


 


THE issue people have with Nahjo priests is their favor item.  Veggies (or anything else that can be used to make a healing cover, such as teeth).  Libila priests have been sacrificing veggies for years, and why is it only broken now that people can do it on Freedom?


 


The only difference between Nahjo and Libila is that Nahjo can still farm.  Maybe that's something to consider, rather than taking away mining and woodcutting.


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Will let run out my Nahjo sub out, let it sink.


Battery included that is 2 prems lost


Edited by Jaz

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At least Nahjo is a White Light priest and has locate soul o.O.


 


Remove Strongwall and Genesis and replace with nothing, Nahjo already has more spells than the other PMG's.


 


You'll see more people drifting back to Mag and Fo then at least for PvE.


 


When the spell list first came out it was OP, now people have gotten used to how OP it is.


 


Rolf should of addressed this issue month's ago then people wouldn't be so disappointed with the balance now. 

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At least Nahjo is a White Light priest and has locate soul o.O.

 

Remove Strongwall and Genesis and replace with nothing, Nahjo already has more spells than the other PMG's.

 

You'll see more people drifting back to Mag and Fo then at least for PvE.

 

When the spell list first came out it was OP, now people have gotten used to how OP it is.

 

Rolf should of addressed this issue month's ago then people wouldn't be so disappointed with the balance now. 

 

Better then to remove 4 spells and give it 2 decent pvp ones

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It would be ridiculous to remove spells now. The original suggestion to balance by giving other priests a bit more would be a far better way to go.


 


Removing amounts to "bait and switch". It's true that when Nahjo first appeared everyone immediately saw how much better it was than the current priests for PvE....and held their breaths waiting for the nerf, and pullback. It never happened. For months people have looked on as it appeared more and more certain that nothing was going to be done. The issues were always there, in posts, in threads.......it was never a "bug" as was claimed by the Dev post originally last night. To be honest that suggestion was an insult to all of our intelligence. To suggest that "no one had noticed" when it had already been going on for 4 months, with people complaining, making suggestions, constantly posting about it......really.....we aren't 3 year olds that can be dazzeld aside by some glib claim that no one is supposed to notice makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.


 


So OF COURSE people decided they needed to change - give up Mag priests for sure, in many cases Fo as well. What else was anyone supposed to do? And now they have......the switch...and many, many people are screwed. Does anyone expect they all just sit there and roll over? For now it's been rolled back, but the threat is still there. It's clear something is going to happen, and that is probably a good thing. However - that shouldn't be by taking stuff away again which will destroy many hours of time and money that people have put into the changeover. Sure - rebalance by adding to the other priests - why not? That way it's gets balanced, and people stay happy. Removing stuff and many, including myself, will probably conclude WO is a waste of time, money, and effort......and either go play WU where the Devs can't touch you, or something else entirely.


 


Talking of WU. The advent of that has already made most of the players nervous as heck as to what will happen in WO. Prices for everything, accounts, items, have all fallen through the floor. Pulling stuff like this is frankly unbelievably bad timing in that regard. It's an open invitation for people to walk - just to get away from the arbitrary nature of how stuff is done here.


 


So yes - balance by adding and not undercutting those that felt they had to completely change their priests, or watch a bunch more people stop paying subscription Wurm...because why the hell should they considering they no longer have to? 


Edited by Heboric
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It would be ridiculous to remove spells now. The original suggestion to balance by giving other priests a bit more would be a far better way to go.

Removing amounts to "bait and switch". It's true that when Nahjo first appeared everyone immediately saw how much better it was than the current priests for PvE....and held their breaths waiting for the nerf, and pullback. It never happened. For months people have looked on as it appeared more and more certain that nothing was going to be done. The issues were always there, in posts, in threads.......it was never a "bug" as was claimed by the Dev post originally last night. To be honest that suggestion was an insult to all of our intelligence. To suggest that "no one had noticed" when it had already been going on for 4 months, with people complaining, making suggestions, constantly posting about it......really.....we aren't 3 year olds that can be dazzeld aside by some glib claim that no one is supposed to notice makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

So OF COURSE people decided they needed to change - give up Mag priests for sure, in many cases Fo as well. What else was anyone supposed to do? And now they have......the switch...and many, many people are screwed. Does anyone expect they all just sit there and roll over? For now it's been rolled back, but the threat is still there. It's clear something is going to happen, and that is probably a good thing. However - that shouldn't be by taking stuff away again which will destroy many hours of time and money that people have put into the changeover. Sure - rebalance by adding to the other priests - why not? That way it's gets balanced, and people stay happy. Removing stuff and many, including myself, will probably conclude WO is a waste of time, money, and effort......and either go play WU where the Devs can't touch you, or something else entirely.

Talking of WU. The advent of that has already made most of the players nervous as heck as to what will happen in WO. Prices for everything, accounts, items, have all fallen through the floor. Pulling stuff like this is frankly unbelievably bad timing in that regard. It's an open invitation for people to walk - just to get away from the arbitraries nature of how stuff is done here.

So yes - balance by adding and not undercutting those that felt they had to completely change their priests, or watch a bunch more people stop paying subscription Wurm...because why the hell should they considering they no longer have to?

Very well worded

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It would be ridiculous to remove spells now. The original suggestion to balance by giving other priests a bit more would be a far better way to go.

 

Removing amounts to "bait and switch". It's true that when Nahjo first appeared everyone immediately saw how much better it was than the current priests for PvE....and held their breaths waiting for the nerf, and pullback. It never happened. For months people have looked on as it appeared more and more certain that nothing was going to be done. The issues were always there, in posts, in threads.......it was never a "bug" as was claimed by the Dev post originally last night. To be honest that suggestion was an insult to all of our intelligence. To suggest that "no one had noticed" when it had already been going on for 4 months, with people complaining, making suggestions, constantly posting about it......really.....we aren't 3 year olds that can be dazzeld aside by some glib claim that no one is supposed to notice makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

 

So OF COURSE people decided they needed to change - give up Mag priests for sure, in many cases Fo as well. What else was anyone supposed to do? And now they have......the switch...and many, many people are screwed. Does anyone expect they all just sit there and roll over? For now it's been rolled back, but the threat is still there. It's clear something is going to happen, and that is probably a good thing. However - that shouldn't be by taking stuff away again which will destroy many hours of time and money that people have put into the changeover. Sure - rebalance by adding to the other priests - why not? That way it's gets balanced, and people stay happy. Removing stuff and many, including myself, will probably conclude WO is a waste of time, money, and effort......and either go play WU where the Devs can't touch you, or something else entirely.

 

Talking of WU. The advent of that has already made most of the players nervous as heck as to what will happen in WO. Prices for everything, accounts, items, have all fallen through the floor. Pulling stuff like this is frankly unbelievably bad timing in that regard. It's an open invitation for people to walk - just to get away from the arbitraries nature of how stuff is done here.

 

So yes - balance by adding and not undercutting those that felt they had to completely change their priests, or watch a bunch more people stop paying subscription Wurm...because why the hell should they considering they no longer have to? 

 

.....Nailed it into the head with good reasons.

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It's never too late to nerf.  It's like admitting a mistake.  We're all human and we all make mistakes, right?


 


Do whatever nerfs need to be done and then offer a one time switch to return to the caster's original god (with whatever faith the person had at the time or their current faith, whichever is higher).


 


If possible, maybe figure out how much faith the person would have gotten if they had stuck with their original god and continued grinding along that way.  Either way, faith isn't the hard part of grinding a priest.


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