Why can't there be a non-STEAM version (like through GOG.com)?

[Clatius 455]

 

I was not referring to running in offline mode.  What happens if the Steam servers go down permanently?

 

 

 

You must mean the apocalypse or end times. Cuz they are making money money money and no reason to do anything cept make more money money money. So unless the planet blows up or something it's not gonna happen. In other words, if they go down perm then you will have bigger problems than, "Why can't I plays me games?".

[Clatius 455]

 

I was not referring to running in offline mode.  What happens if the Steam servers go down permanently?

 

 

 

 

Your first statement contradicts your second.  If Steam is required to install the game, it is DRM.  

 

Also, you are incorrect in your comparison as it is not necessary to install or run any extra software to download and install a game from GOG; games are downloaded directly from the website, and once downloaded are complete stand-alone installation files with no need to connect online for any authentication or verification with any server.  Yes, you can use GOG Galaxy, but that is a completely optional tool for downloading and managing games, and is in no way required to install or run any purchased games. 

 

 

 

 

 

I've never made any such claims or complaints, yet still I get the Steam fanboys telling me I'm wrong for disliking Steam.  Then there are some Steam defenders (see other quotes above) who either can't understand or are unwilling to admit that Steam is in fact DRM.  Thanks for at least being honest about that point; it's more than I can say about others.

 

Steam is DRM.  I object to this kind of DRM on principle.  Therefore, I won't use Steam.  Nothing will change that position.  So why do so many Steam supporters feel the need to try to convince me otherwise?  Why is it so important to them that I like Steam?  Is the opinion of one faceless stranger on the internet such a threat to their self-worth?  I can think of no other explanation for the attacks and vitriol (here and in other discussions) over simply having a different opinion and preference of services.  I don't like what Steam offers, or rather what it requires in exchange for what it offers, so I don't use it.  If you like it, that's up to you; the beauty of a free market system is we can each patronize the businesses which offer what we want.  

 

 

Does GOG give refunds? Personally I don't care if you ever use Steam or play any of the plethora of games they offer. Your loss. I used to have your opinion of Steam BTW. No Steam no way not ever for nuttin. Then they offered a game I couldn't get anyplace else and really wanted to play it so I held my nose and bought it on Steam. Never regretted it ever. Now I have a bunch of Steam games. I feel I was being stupidly stubborn for no reason at all.

 

Oh, and did I mention if you don't like the game you buy you can get a refund?

Edited September 21, 2015 by Clatius

[Huntar 1,692]

I don't think Huntar was referring to your comments. My own comments as well as other Posters fit his reply better.

 

If Huntar thinks I'm a dumb ass then so be it. I don't see a need to change his mind, not about this topic at least. Something like Steam is going to divide people like a sword.

 

Was indeed a reference to previous posts as well as posts from other boards I've been on, I cannot understand how difficult it could be to use it, maybe because I've been using it for the last 10 years but uninstalling any piece of software isn't hard when you do it through add/remove software, which generally proves more effective than uninstalling through a launcher or executable setup for any bit of software.

 

Usually the complaint met with any software is about the difficulty in understanding the software, it's easy for someone to get overwhelmed and shout "too many buttons popups all the time its always trying to download updates and I can't figure out how to buy a game 0/10!!!!!". When I think of user-error like this, I think of that video from years ago where the guy on his MAC reviewed MAC Steam, he didn't understand any of the buttons, what was going on, or how to even use the software, he was considered by many to be a literal dumbass as many of the hoops he encountered could've been easily understood by anyone that more than commonly used any kind of computer. Nobody could understand why he was so frustrated, only that his frustration stemmed from his own ignorance of software in general.

 

I've never had a problem with Steam, many people demonize it because it's popular or because it's DRM, honestly it is the most open DRM available, the most user-friendly piece of software with a very minimalistic design, you log in, go to your games library, wait for 10 minutes to install the game and you're done. Opening it will take you to the Wurm launcher just as many do when they go to their download folder or their desktop to click a shortcut.

 

Look at software like Ubisoft's Uplay, or EA's Origin, Microsoft's failed GOWL, many of these are entirely intrusive, Origin has admittedly gotten better through years, but when I think of intrusive I think of GOWL and the many hoops you had to jump through just to add someone, the difficulty in having to log in for almost every game to receive save files from a cloud that you can no longer access because your client is out of synch with the server so you have to sit there for several minutes, make a new password, jump and fourth through various account authentications to get a new password etc etc

 

@Karys

With your logic you could argue that Wurm's launcher is intrusive as you're required to open it each time and log in with authentication to even play the game :^)

Edited September 22, 2015 by Huntar

[eyerobot 202]

I don't like the idea of being tied to any site just to access software i paid for.  If they can't put it on a disk, Then i don't feel like i got my moneys worth. 

That may seem stupid, But you can't exactly burn your own disk with this butchered software that you downloaded.

Burn it on a professionaly made disk, Just like the big boys do.  And then maybe i'll trust you enough to pay for it.  And if it's not something that i can install offline, Then I'm not interested, And never will be.

[Karrde 339]

Just give Wurm the most intrusive, evil DRM ever made. EA might have some recommendations.

[Biervampyr 97]

To the no steam sayers:

What happens if someday your wife/girl just got so annoyed of your computer playing that she put silence your whole games to the trash...than you would be Lucky if you had steam and could Download them again XD (oh and dont tell me that could never happens...still feel sad for the lost of my collection ;-((!)

[Ecrir 887]

Steam is DRM.  If the steam service goes offline, can you access your games?  Can you continue to install and play your games if you cannot run or access the Steam client?  If Valve sells out or shuts it's doors, does it take your games with it?  I'm sure that some will quickly jump in here to say that "Valve will never close"; well, "never" is a long time, and the video game industry is an ever-changing one; what seems unthinkable now is often commonplace tomorrow.

 

Steam is the most pervasive and controlling type of DRM; the kind that has the potential to lock you out completely.  It just offers enough in the way of services that some consider it an acceptable trade-off.  Others value their ownership rights more than convenience, and so will continue to avoid Steam and similar DRM.

 

I've got CDs here which don't even require cd keys. Do they work? No, because the software doesn't support my current hardware. How is that different from games on steam no longer working if steam were to go offline? Does that make CDs DRM? No, it makes CDs a distribution platform, just like Steam. And you can add things to this distribution platform, like DRM. CDs can be filled with all kinds of DRM, but that doesn't make the CD itself DRM.

Besides that, steam contains plenty of games which work without you even needing to have steam running and steam doesn't force a developer to have his/her game require steam to be running, it's the developer/publisher whom makes that choice and even then those games will run if steam is started in offline mode. Can you install GoG games if GoG no longer exists? Only if you already downloaded them, which is no different from steam, which has the option to make a backup of an installed game (you can put that on a disk of you want!) in case the option to download the game from steam (like in the case of steam closing down permanently) were to go away.

Edited September 22, 2015 by Ecrir

[Karys 77]

I've got CDs here which don't even require cd keys. Do they work? No, because the software doesn't support my current hardware. How is that different from games on steam no longer working if steam were to go offline? Does that make CDs DRM? No, it makes CDs a distribution platform, just like Steam. And you can add things to this distribution platform, like DRM. CDs can be filled with all kinds of DRM, but that doesn't make the CD itself DRM.

Besides that, steam contains plenty of games which work without you even needing to have steam running and steam doesn't force a developer to have his/her game require steam to be running, it's the developer/publisher whom makes that choice and even then those games will run if steam is started in offline mode. Can you install GoG games if GoG no longer exists? Only if you already downloaded them, which is no different from steam, which has the option to make a backup of an installed game (you can put that on a disk of you want!) in case the option to download the game from steam (like in the case of steam closing down permanently) were to go away.

 

A blatantly ridiculous comparison.  CDs are not a distribution platform, they are a storage media.  Again, aging hardware compatibility issues are another part of the personal responsibility in maintaining your own property.  I can run emulators, or even keep old computers running to play my old games if I so choose (I actually have a Windows 95 machine tucked away for a few old favorites that I haven't gotten around to setting up with an emulator yet).  Again, that is my choice, my option, and my responsibility, and the maintenance of such options is upon me to handle, and whether or not I lose access to those games is up to me and no one else.  

 

As for your question about installing GOG games if GOG goes down, of course you can, that's the whole point!  It's a simple process:

 

1. Buy a game on GOG.com

Download game installer from GOG.com

Back-up installation files to any storage media of my choice

Install game whenever and wherever I choose, with no connection to GOG.com

Within minutes of buying a game from GOG.com, it is no longer necessary for me to be able to connect with GOG.com ever, until the end of time (unless I want to buy another game of course), and provided I take responsibility and maintain my backups, I will always have the ability to install my game.

 

Unless something has changed recently (and I'll admit that haven't bothered to keep up lately), those Steam backups are still only good if you have access to the Steam servers; the backups are only to save you needing to re-download massive amounts of data.  Installing from the backups will still require installation of the Steam client and connection to Steam servers to activate the game prior to play.

[Huntar 1,692]

A blatantly ridiculous comparison.  CDs are not a distribution platform, they are a storage media.  Again, aging hardware compatibility issues are another part of the personal responsibility in maintaining your own property.  I can run emulators, or even keep old computers running to play my old games if I so choose (I actually have a Windows 95 machine tucked away for a few old favorites that I haven't gotten around to setting up with an emulator yet).  Again, that is my choice, my option, and my responsibility, and the maintenance of such options is upon me to handle, and whether or not I lose access to those games is up to me and no one else.  

 

As for your question about installing GOG games if GOG goes down, of course you can, that's the whole point!  It's a simple process:

 

1. Buy a game on GOG.com

Download game installer from GOG.com

Back-up installation files to any storage media of my choice

Install game whenever and wherever I choose, with no connection to GOG.com

Within minutes of buying a game from GOG.com, it is no longer necessary for me to be able to connect with GOG.com ever, until the end of time (unless I want to buy another game of course), and provided I take responsibility and maintain my backups, I will always have the ability to install my game.

 

Unless something has changed recently (and I'll admit that haven't bothered to keep up lately), those Steam backups are still only good if you have access to the Steam servers; the backups are only to save you needing to re-download massive amounts of data.  Installing from the backups will still require installation of the Steam client and connection to Steam servers to activate the game prior to play.

 

Except GOG requires you to log into their website to install the game as it's stored on your account. What happens if that goes down and GOG goes out of business and nobody buys the property?

 

Also it's been stated numerous times before, by Gabe himself, that if Steam ever went under, they wouldn't be able to think of a situation where they wouldn't remove Steam from all the games.

Edited September 22, 2015 by Huntar

[Mordraug 2,542]

Except GOG requires you to log into their website to install the game as it's stored on your account. What happens if that goes down and GOG goes out of business and nobody buys the property?

 

Then it usually takes 2 weeks for .... a crack to magically appear out of thin air ;-)

 

Only reason I wouldn't crack WU is because I'm not out to harm CC's revenue, I voted against some things in WO with my wallet and will vote for WU with my wallet... IF a multiboxing solution is added OOOOOOOOR I some things are tweaked for single player, my two main ones are:

Bridges (as is everyone's in the WU supporter club)

BREEDING HOSTILE CREATURES.

 

However people wanting to keep a priest running in the background waiting for cooldowns on servers where it's NOT godmode, it IS a pretty standard Wurm playstyle.... Rolf & crew, if you can't give us a non-Steam version, you REALLY gotta add multiboxing to WU ASAP.

 

There's also planting several deeds on WU servers, as "deed the whole thing" would destroy spawn rates and locations in a bad way.

[Karys 77]

Except GOG requires you to log into their website to install the game as it's stored on your account. What happens if that goes down and GOG goes out of business and nobody buys the property?

 

You clearly are not familiar with how GOG works.  I have the option of logging into GOG to access my game library and to download my game installers any time I would like (as long as GOG is in business/online), however it is not required.  After the game installer has been downloaded once, no further communication with GOG's servers is required.  As I indicated in my previous post, if I save that installer and maintain it, I can always use that file to install the game, regardless of the status of GOG or its servers.  If I buy a game from GOG and download the installer, I never have to log into GOG again and I will still have access to my game.  Assuming I copy the installer to a separate storage media, I could wipe my hard drive, reinstall my OS, keep the computer as a completely offline box that has no access to the internet, and I could still copy that file over from my storage media and install my game, never needing to log into or communicate with GOG servers at any point during the process.

 

Once I have bought and downloaded a game from GOG, my business with them is done with regards to that transaction; they have my money and I have the game I paid for, no strings attached.  I have the option to part ways from GOG and still will not lose access to my games.  Can Steam say the same?

[Mordraug 2,542]

Hm... can we also have a gog version please? 

 

[Karys 77]

Hm... can we also have a gog version please? 

 

 

So, we're back to the thread title then?

[Mordraug 2,542]

So, we're back to the thread title then?

 

It's evolved... now it has an owl monkey... you can't say "no" to owl monkeys!!!!!!!!!

[Clatius 455]

You clearly are not familiar with how GOG works.  I have the option of logging into GOG to access my game library and to download my game installers any time I would like (as long as GOG is in business/online), however it is not required.  After the game installer has been downloaded once, no further communication with GOG's servers is required.  As I indicated in my previous post, if I save that installer and maintain it, I can always use that file to install the game, regardless of the status of GOG or its servers.  If I buy a game from GOG and download the installer, I never have to log into GOG again and I will still have access to my game.  Assuming I copy the installer to a separate storage media, I could wipe my hard drive, reinstall my OS, keep the computer as a completely offline box that has no access to the internet, and I could still copy that file over from my storage media and install my game, never needing to log into or communicate with GOG servers at any point during the process.

 

Once I have bought and downloaded a game from GOG, my business with them is done with regards to that transaction; they have my money and I have the game I paid for, no strings attached.  I have the option to part ways from GOG and still will not lose access to my games.  Can Steam say the same?

 

I can get a refund from Steam if I don't like a game. Can GOG say that?

[Karrde 339]

Another concern about Steam and similar setups I haven't seen come up... They can take anywhere from 30-70% of the revenue generated.

Granted imho its a fair trade for the hosting, advertising, support, and increased exposure. However, that percentage can make or break smaller indie developers.

Overall various pos and negs to be weighed.

Edited September 23, 2015 by Karrde

[Warlander 2,730]

Another concern about Steam and similar setups I haven't seen come up... They can take anywhere from 30-70% of the revenue generated.

Granted imho its a fair trade for the hosting, advertising, support, and increased exposure. However, that percentage can make or break smaller indie developers.

Overall various pos and negs to be weighed.

On the other hand, getting anywhere in PC gaming without Steam is simply impossible nowadays - this is the giant controlling basically the whole market. 30% Steam takes is not that bad as well, very fair deal for being able to reach much bigger audience.

[Ecrir 887]

You clearly are not familiar with how GOG works.  I have the option of logging into GOG to access my game library and to download my game installers any time I would like (as long as GOG is in business/online), however it is not required.  After the game installer has been downloaded once, no further communication with GOG's servers is required.  As I indicated in my previous post, if I save that installer and maintain it, I can always use that file to install the game, regardless of the status of GOG or its servers.  If I buy a game from GOG and download the installer, I never have to log into GOG again and I will still have access to my game.  Assuming I copy the installer to a separate storage media, I could wipe my hard drive, reinstall my OS, keep the computer as a completely offline box that has no access to the internet, and I could still copy that file over from my storage media and install my game, never needing to log into or communicate with GOG servers at any point during the process.

 

Once I have bought and downloaded a game from GOG, my business with them is done with regards to that transaction; they have my money and I have the game I paid for, no strings attached.  I have the option to part ways from GOG and still will not lose access to my games.  Can Steam say the same?

 

Yes, steam can say the same. You can download a game from steam, then manually make a backup (not through steam) of the game. Any game which does not include DRM or requires steam servers for online components will work just fine without steam. It's up to the developer/publisher whether they include such DRM/requirements, not steam (for example, try commander keen, that game has no drm). Similarly there are games on GoG which come with their own DRM (age of wonders 3 for example, for the online portion).

This next part isn't from experience but from investigation so it can be wrong, but from what I understand you can also make a backup of your actual steam installation, not just the games. So even if steam were to go away, you could still use that backup to run steam in offline mode, most likely even if you reinstalled windows (from what I read steam will automatically add new registry entries in that case). In this case steam's own backup system will also function just fine as long as you made a backup of steam itself.

[Karys 77]

I can get a refund from Steam if I don't like a game. Can GOG say that?

 

Yes.

 

GOG.com 30 Day Money Back Guarantee 

 

That seems to be a bit better than Steam's 14-day, less than 2 hours played policy.

[Karys 77]

Yes, steam can say the same. You can download a game from steam, then manually make a backup (not through steam) of the game. Any game which does not include DRM or requires steam servers for online components will work just fine without steam. It's up to the developer/publisher whether they include such DRM/requirements, not steam (for example, try commander keen, that game has no drm). Similarly there are games on GoG which come with their own DRM (age of wonders 3 for example, for the online portion).

This next part isn't from experience but from investigation so it can be wrong, but from what I understand you can also make a backup of your actual steam installation, not just the games. So even if steam were to go away, you could still use that backup to run steam in offline mode, most likely even if you reinstalled windows (from what I read steam will automatically add new registry entries in that case). In this case steam's own backup system will also function just fine as long as you made a backup of steam itself.

 

Please cite sources on Steam backups functioning without Steam; I'm not saying that it is incorrect, but the last I had read on the subject, even an installation backup still required the Steam client to re-install and activate the game. If this has changed, I'd be happy to see otherwise.

 

Also, if Steam goes away, how are you supposed to run Steam in offline mode on a completely new computer installation?  Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the Steam client have to log in at least once before it will let you run it in either online or offline mode?  If you can't log in to the authentication servers, how will you run the client?

 

Yes, GOG.com has included DRM of a sort with some games which have an online component that could not be handled otherwise, and the DRM only exists for the online portion of the game (the offline portion of AoW3 can still be handled completely DRM free).  I have no problem with legitimate online portions of a game requiring an online authentication (as opposed to completely offline single player games requiring an online connection for no legitimate reason), otherwise I wouldn't be in WURM.  There is a difference based on the requirements of the game itself, and trying to equate the two is disingenuous.

Edited September 23, 2015 by Karys

[Clatius 455]

I'd say it's more likely GOG goes away than Steam. Steam continues to pick up steam. But hey, no one says you have to buy WU so why do you keep arguing about it. And didn't one of the devs say something about looking into other avenues of distribution. I don't like the inability to multi box either so if some way came along to do that I'd jump on it. Who wouldn't.

[Clatius 455]

Yes.

 

GOG.com 30 Day Money Back Guarantee 

 

That seems to be a bit better than Steam's 14-day, less than 2 hours played policy.

 

That is if the game DOESN'T WORK and they can't get it working for you. Steam will give you your money back just because you don't like the game. So no, they don't give you a refund if you don't like the game. Maybe you need reading glasses to read the fine print. 

 

So no, it's not unconditional. It's kinda crappy actually.

[Timoca 154]

That is if the game DOESN'T WORK and they can't get it working for you. Steam will give you your money back just because you don't like the game. So no, they don't give you a refund if you don't like the game. Maybe you need reading glasses to read the fine print. 

 

So no, it's not unconditional. It's kinda crappy actually.

 

That's the normal way of doing refunds, Steam just added on that, something like steams version of the refund system won't be found anywhere else. It's not the norm.

 

And you guys all seem to be discussing on which is the best one, I don't want a best one, I want em to compete with each other. The online game market is way to unhealthy right now with Steam owning a ways to big share of the cake.

Edited September 23, 2015 by Timoca

[revengo 277]

Yes, the biggest game distribution software is too much. Please put it on a niche distribution system for us.

 

Next non-issue please.

[Clatius 455]

Yeah, I bought Ascent-The Space Game. Fought with it for I don't know how long, Steam said 10 hours over three weeks. It worked the first couple days then they, they guys who make the game, did an update and poof, couldn't get the controls to work. Fought with it put it aside, tried again, put it aside. Finally gave up on it. Told Steam customer service my problems and presto, refund. Used the money to buy COH2.

 

Steam is NOT the big bad boogey man people make it out to be, really.

Edited September 23, 2015 by Clatius