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Brash_Endeavors

Why can't there be a non-STEAM version (like through GOG.com)?

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I dont get why people are complaining and begging for a non steam version. Don't like game adverts from steam? Turn them off. Don't want steam looking at your PC info? Turn it off. Don't want steam to sign you into friends list every time you log in? Turn it off. Really, Its not hard to turn steam off to the extent where it just houses and stores your games, and save games in the cloud. Hell, Want steam to ONLY be the library with no other button? Go make a custom layout and load it as your default. Then you won't have to deal with it. Steam allows you to modify there UI & Pages to what you want them to be.

 

Anyways. Rolf, Or game devs, Can you attach a launcher in the steam download that will allow players to load up the game without steam, Or while steam is running the game already? so we can use alts that way. 

 

 More or less I see people wanting to be able to have their own server and have people come play on it for free without buying the game at all. At least that seems to be the gist of some people's objectives.  

Edited by Uberknot
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 More or less I see people wanting to be able to have their own server and have people come play on it for free without buying the game at all. At least that seems to be the gist of some people's objectives.  

 

Where are you seeing this on the forums? I haven't seen anything that alludes to this. For me, the draw of a non-steam version is reducing the amount of programs running concurrently on the server so that I'm getting the most out of the resources available. Not to mention, I imagine a non-steam version would be easier to manage than wrangling both SteamCMD and WU and mods in the event that mods become popular.

 

If WU isn't released for Linux at some point soontm after launch, I won't be bothering with setting up a server since I'd rather not deal with Windows Server and its additional cost (vs Debian) on top of all of this.

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EevK2kM.png

Steam client in most minimalistic form - everything except library and library games search turned off and cannot be accessed directly, friends feature turned off, almost no CPU/RAM usage, no notifications, Steam downloads anything only if you want that - Steam is not so bad, and in case of PC gaming it is basically (a good) monopolist. WU is using Steam features like server browser heavily, keep in mind that Steam is not only game distribution software, but also a service offering a lot of good things for game devs. :)

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Well, I wouldn't be using a GUI with the server for one so those setting modifications don't really apply to me. But, running Steam does introduce another point of failure for a server that I'd like to have on 24/7. For the most part I'd say that it may be unlikely to cause any issues with WU but there is the chance for Steam to crash and take the game down with it depending on how reliant WU is on it. I'm just arguing from a more practical perspective here. I agree with the others on the more philosophical stances presented but I'm willing to bend if necessary and use Steam...but I'll grumble, lol.


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I dont get why people are complaining and begging for a non steam version. Don't like game adverts from steam? Turn them off. Don't want steam looking at your PC info? Turn it off. Don't want steam to sign you into friends list every time you log in? Turn it off. Really, Its not hard to turn steam off to the extent where it just houses and stores your games, and save games in the cloud. Hell, Want steam to ONLY be the library with no other button? Go make a custom layout and load it as your default. Then you won't have to deal with it. Steam allows you to modify there UI & Pages to what you want them to be.

 

Anyways. Rolf, Or game devs, Can you attach a launcher in the steam download that will allow players to load up the game without steam, Or while steam is running the game already? so we can use alts that way. 

And if we don't want to use Steam to house and store our games, or save our games in the cloud?  If we don't want to log in to Steam (or a similar service) to maintain our games library?  If we don't want to have to bother with modifying Steam's UI and pages?  If we don't want an online check with a third party for permission to run software that we legally purchased? If we don't want to potentially lose access to software we purchased and own just because Steam runs into problems or goes down (either temporarily or permanently)? 

 

Steam is online DRM which violates the principle of ownership, and furthers the myth that computer games are a rental license.  Anyone in favor of consumer rights would do well to avoid patronizing such services in order to prevent further erosion of such rights.  Steam may be "not as bad" as other such forms of DRM, but it is still a capitulation to such anti-customer tactics, and "less bad" is still bad.

 

My games library consists of a bookshelf to the right of my computer with a wide array of hard copies of games and manuals, where no one can take them from me.  Some of it includes games 20 years old, which I can still pull out and play as the mood suits me; I never would have been able to do this had these games been tied to some form of online authentication server which may have shut down over a decade ago.  In recent years, I've added to that library digital download games from providers such as GOG.com, which make it possible for me to download once, then make a hard copy back up and install the game as many times as I like without ever having to connect to their website again.  I own these games.  Yes, I can lose the disk, damage or break it, but if I do that is my fault, and my responsibility.  I much prefer that to having to get permission from some other company to install and use a game which I have paid for and have every right to use.

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Why are you so anti-steam? 

 

The amount of "new releases" that where new 10 years ago on the market but new to steam today is one.

Greenlight games that get their money and run before Alpha is even over yet the developers get the greenlight again is two.

 

SNES Mario Brothers quality games out the nose for AAA prices is three.

 

They ban you for any reason they see fit with a nightmare appeal process and they take your entire library with you is four.

I could go on but I think you can get why some people don't like Steam.

 

It's not just Steam. It's Origin, UPlay, Arc, Glyph. They're all unnecessary running in the background always online nuisances.

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And if we don't want to use Steam to house and store our games, or save our games in the cloud?  If we don't want to log in to Steam (or a similar service) to maintain our games library?  If we don't want to have to bother with modifying Steam's UI and pages?  If we don't want an online check with a third party for permission to run software that we legally purchased? If we don't want to potentially lose access to software we purchased and own just because Steam runs into problems or goes down (either temporarily or permanently)? 

 

Steam is online DRM which violates the principle of ownership, and furthers the myth that computer games are a rental license.  Anyone in favor of consumer rights would do well to avoid patronizing such services in order to prevent further erosion of such rights.  Steam may be "not as bad" as other such forms of DRM, but it is still a capitulation to such anti-customer tactics, and "less bad" is still bad.

 

My games library consists of a bookshelf to the right of my computer with a wide array of hard copies of games and manuals, where no one can take them from me.  Some of it includes games 20 years old, which I can still pull out and play as the mood suits me; I never would have been able to do this had these games been tied to some form of online authentication server which may have shut down over a decade ago.  In recent years, I've added to that library digital download games from providers such as GOG.com, which make it possible for me to download once, then make a hard copy back up and install the game as many times as I like without ever having to connect to their website again.  I own these games.  Yes, I can lose the disk, damage or break it, but if I do that is my fault, and my responsibility.  I much prefer that to having to get permission from some other company to install and use a game which I have paid for and have every right to use.

 

If you dont want to use steam, Or make a small effort to change steam, Then go play WO. Its a non-steam edition that'l disappear far sooner then WU or Steam for that matter. One could say Steam is comparable to Google in terms of staying around for the long run.

 

Steam does not violate DR. Steam terms of service/subscriber agreement. You agreed to these terms, Without it, It probably most certainly violates DR in some way. But thankfully theres agreements in place to avoid such issue. 

 

Sorry to burst your bubble here, But im gonna have to refer you to the CodeClub ToS, And registration page. It clearly states you do not own anything here, This is a service by CodeClub AB and all money transactions are Donations to CodeClub & Are not purchases or signs of ownership and reserves the right to delete, ban, or remove your account or possessions at any moment. Goodbye Karys. 

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If you dont want to use steam, Or make a small effort to change steam, Then go play WO. Its a non-steam edition that'l disappear far sooner then WU or Steam for that matter. One could say Steam is comparable to Google in terms of staying around for the long run.

 

There is no way to "change Steam" which removes the problems I have with it.  "Comparable to Google" is an opinion; time will tell how true it is.  Who is to say that Valve may not be bought out by another company and change it's policies?  If history is anything to judge by, it shows us that the world of video games and the companies that make them and publish them is ever changing, and to expect constancy or permanence is folly.

 

Steam does not violate DR. Steam terms of service/subscriber agreement. You agreed to these terms, Without it, It probably most certainly violates DR in some way. But thankfully theres agreements in place to avoid such issue.

 

TOS does not change the nature of the platform or it's requirements; just because you willingly hand over your rights does not mean that you somehow magically still have them.  It is also why I will not agree to those terms.

 

Sorry to burst your bubble here, But im gonna have to refer you to the CodeClub ToS, And registration page. It clearly states you do not own anything here, This is a service by CodeClub AB and all money transactions are Donations to CodeClub & Are not purchases or signs of ownership and reserves the right to delete, ban, or remove your account or possessions at any moment. Goodbye Karys.

 

WO, like other MMOs, by their nature are an online experience, and as such are a service to which you must subscribe.  That is a whole different situation than a game which can be run completely locally on a single machine or small network and has no need to be or real value added by connecting to online authentication.  I have no illusions about such online games or the services they provide, but this is a different matter entirely and to conflate the two is ignorance. 

 

Were Steam to offer server hosting for WU to which players could connect, then it may be a different situation there as well.  However, everything we have been told so far indicates that we will have to find our own solutions to hosting servers, and as such both server and client are fully capable of running independently of Steam, and therefore Steam is an unnecessary and obtrusive addition that give zero value to the WU experience.

Edited by Karys

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And if we don't want to use Steam to house and store our games, or save our games in the cloud?

 

Steam is a private company. You can choose to use it or not, no one is forcing you.

I dislike relying on it and trusting them with your information etc too.

 

But I'm not going to say they can't run a private business just because I don't like it.

 

It is nearly (if not fully) impossible to function in a Western society today without entrusting information and money to private companies, which is a shame. I wouldn't if I could avoid it. (Even to apply for a job, I need an email address, mobile phone etc) In Steam's case however, they are fully entitled to operate as they do, so long as they fully disclose their intentions to customers and live up to any promises/contracts agreed upon.

 

 

It would be nice for WU to be available elsewhere however. Hopefully after launch.

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As a daily steam user myself I do not dislike the software, altrough, steam has been releasing  many bad games lately, mainly through greenlight. Many people, who don't understand the concept of the game would say that that's another crappy game, which was released through steam. Many will think that the game is "Life is feudal"/ Minecraft clone. I'm afraid, that wurm would not be appreciated by the steam community, because wurm is a niche game afterall. I really hope, that Wurm and Rolf would profit, but I'm really afraid about the bad PR and negative reviews on steam. Even the new artwork does not resemble the game in my opinnion and such thing could anger some people.( I personally really like it). 


 


We just need to wait and see. Only time can tell.


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From a comment by Warlander, Wurm Unlimited is including Steam libraries in the client code.  This makes it a Steam-only game, unless they decide to branch the code for different distribution services.  It could be as easy as anti-piracy measures, maybe also anti-cheat libraries.  But they could also be incorporating Steam's network code for the multiplayer bits, replacing the java code used for that in Wurm Online.  I don't really know, but seeing how reluctant they have been to branch the code between PvP and PvE play styles, I really don't see them branching for Steam, GoG, or any of the other distrobution services available. 

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If WU is including of the Steam libraries in the code, then yes it does seem it will indeed be Steam only. I want no part of any code that includes anythig from Steam... and that is after my experience using Steam.


 


I have used Steam for one game... Skyrim. Each time I decided to stop playing Skyrim and uninstall Steam it was the biggest PITA to remove. No other software I have ever used has been so determined to not be removed. That to me spells trouble. To me.... If a software is designed to fight attempts to remove it as much as Steam does then I do not trust it, nor do I trust the business that provides it. THAT is why I won't use Steam. To me setting up the Steam client as minimal as possible does not solve anything. If some people see nothing wrong with using Steam then that is their choice. I would rather do without a game than use Steam to get a game.


 


 


As for gaming consoles, Androids, Google, Pandora, Skype, FB, Twitter, Windows 10, etc... I don't and won't use these because they are in my opinion unwise for more reasons then I care to discuss here. There are alternatives to a few of these, but to me the best alternative is just saying no to some new technologies that ask too much in return for the so called convieneince they provide. We can't stop all the data gathering but to just accept it and not try to limit that kind of activity as much as possible is in my opinion a bad choice.


Edited by geode
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steam has been releasing  many bad games lately, mainly through greenlight

 

They really do need to add some sort of 'quality control'. The amount of absolute garbage that is there with no warning to customers and up until recently, no refunds (which still aren't great..refund too many games too quickly? No more refunds for you!).

 

WU really needs to put, in huge bold letters "This game is 10 years old and not just cashing in on the pseudo-survival hype train". If I hadn't played Wurm, I would think it was exactly that, looking at their Steam store page.

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As a daily steam user myself I do not dislike the software, altrough, steam has been releasing  many bad games lately, mainly through greenlight. Many people, who don't understand the concept of the game would say that that's another crappy game, which was released through steam. Many will think that the game is "Life is feudal"/ Minecraft clone. I'm afraid, that wurm would not be appreciated by the steam community, because wurm is a niche game afterall. I really hope, that Wurm and Rolf would profit, but I'm really afraid about the bad PR and negative reviews on steam. Even the new artwork does not resemble the game in my opinnion and such thing could anger some people.( I personally really like it). 

 

We just need to wait and see. Only time can tell.

 

However that's not a problem with Steam, but the developers themselves. The same thing goes for triple AAA titles (See Aliens Colonial Marines, Duke Nukem Forever, Watchdogs, etc.) Nobody is exempt from making a shitty game, and these games aren't forced onto you, you can most certainly, easily avoid them.

 

Plus, Steam now offers refunds, incase you missed that. When refunds came out I immediately got refunds for three greenlit games I bought, played, and disliked in the past month of the service becoming available.

Edited by Huntar

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almost 500 games on steam, can stream games from 1 pc to another through steam.  ive had 0 issues with steam, been a loyal member since 2009 to steam. It doesnt mess with any of mystuff,  i find it awsome to have all my games in 1 platform that i can play online or offline, Yes steam works offline and lets ya play your games offline. The clients awsome. not sure why people hate it, ive never been hacked or lost any info cause of it, sure there is DRM games, but thats more the dev then steam. ill happilly get WU when it releases :-)


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sure there is DRM games, but thats more the dev then steam. 

 

Steam is DRM.  If the steam service goes offline, can you access your games?  Can you continue to install and play your games if you cannot run or access the Steam client?  If Valve sells out or shuts it's doors, does it take your games with it?  I'm sure that some will quickly jump in here to say that "Valve will never close"; well, "never" is a long time, and the video game industry is an ever-changing one; what seems unthinkable now is often commonplace tomorrow.

 

Steam is the most pervasive and controlling type of DRM; the kind that has the potential to lock you out completely.  It just offers enough in the way of services that some consider it an acceptable trade-off.  Others value their ownership rights more than convenience, and so will continue to avoid Steam and similar DRM.

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Steam is DRM.  If the steam service goes offline, can you access your games?

 

Yes, and has been the way now for a few years. Offline works perfectly now.

 

 

If Valve sells out or shuts it's doors, does it take your games with it?

 

Valve is by current estimates the biggest games company in the world. Its not going anywhere. Its also getting stronger and stronger every year, and is becoming a bit of a behemoth. Also DRM is solely done by the publisher e.g. all Paradox games on Steam have no DRM, as such there is no restrictions at all just all the benefits that Steam brings the only restrictions are at the discretion of the publisher.

 

Slight aside but Steam DRM is also the least pervasive DRM available, which will be the DRM that WU uses as hardly anyone uses anything else now.

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Steam is DRM.  If the steam service goes offline, can you access your games?  Can you continue to install and play your games if you cannot run or access the Steam client?  If Valve sells out or shuts it's doors, does it take your games with it?  I'm sure that some will quickly jump in here to say that "Valve will never close"; well, "never" is a long time, and the video game industry is an ever-changing one; what seems unthinkable now is often commonplace tomorrow.

 

Steam is the most pervasive and controlling type of DRM; the kind that has the potential to lock you out completely.  It just offers enough in the way of services that some consider it an acceptable trade-off.  Others value their ownership rights more than convenience, and so will continue to avoid Steam and similar DRM.

 

i think before steam gots down you lost your cds/DVDs with your games....i mean come on hardcopys have also a "lifetime" and steam is allready 12 years at the market and still not at the Peak. so i have a better Feeling to let my games on steam than to have it somewhere go bad!

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Also DRM is solely done by the publisher e.g. all Paradox games on Steam have no DRM, as such there is no restrictions at all just all the benefits that Steam brings the only restrictions are at the discretion of the publisher.

 

 

(Boldface added for emphasis)

 

Again, Steam itself is DRM.  Do you have to run Steam to install the game?  Do you have to run Steam to play the game?  If the answer to either of those is yes, then there are restrictions, and claiming otherwise is false.

 

If I buy and download my games from Steam, and I make backup copies from the installation files and store them away (keeping them in good condition and refreshing media storage as needed), and if some day 20 years from now Steam goes offline, or if I just happen to have a day when my internet is down, can I pull out those files and install my game?  If not, then I have lost ownership of something I paid for.  

 

And if you think any company isn't going anywhere ever, then you haven't studied history.  Valve may last for decades, or something could happen to shut it down next month.  You are gambling on it outlasting either your lifetime or your interest in games, and you may win that bet.  I simply choose not to take the risk at all, as I've seen too many companies which people said weren't "going anywhere" disappear and be forgotten.  There are no guarantees in the business world; doubly so in an industry as fickle as video games.

 

i think before steam gots down you lost your cds/DVDs with your games....i mean come on hardcopys have also a "lifetime" and steam is allready 12 years at the market and still not at the Peak. so i have a better Feeling to let my games on steam than to have it somewhere go bad!

 

The responsibilities of ownership include the personal responsibility to care for and maintain your own property.  I can backup and refresh a hard copy in my possession.  As I stated before in this thread, I am ok with that responsibility as I much prefer the fate of my game library being in my own hands instead of subject to the whims of others.  Those who enjoy using Steam typically don't want that responsibility and are willing to forfeit their rights of ownership to get the convenience of relying on someone else to maintain their games.  That's their decision; I've made mine.  Each choice has its pros and cons, and I've opted for the cons I'm willing to accept.

 

On a side note, I really don't understand the constant need for Steam users to try to convince those who don't like Steam that they should like it and use it.  It's as if Steam users need their own decisions validated by others to be assured they made the right choice, and anyone who disagrees with them is a threat to that validation.  If Steam users were so secure in their chosen service, why can't they just accept that not everyone appreciates the same things in a game provider and let each choose their own?

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Again, Steam itself is DRM.  Do you have to run Steam to install the game?  Do you have to run Steam to play the game?  If the answer to either of those is yes, then there are restrictions, and claiming otherwise is false.

 

It is not. Steam is an enhanced Store Front now, its down to the publisher in regards to DRM.

 

1) Do you have to run Steam to install the game?

 

Yes as its just a store front same as E.g. Desura or GOG.

 

2)  Do you have to run Steam to play the game?

 

No. As the DRM is down to the publisher, if you so wish you can just run the executable file in the games directory, for none DRM games (which there are quite a lot now).

 

Seriously read up on what you are talking about as you are sounding a bit odd.

Edited by Happiness
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I want to see some more competition between those online stores, so the more games I see on other websites then steam, the better. I want GOG to take off so the Battle of the Low Prices can begin.


 


 


 


Until then I get most of my games on G2A..


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On a side note, I really don't understand the constant need for Steam users to try to convince those who don't like Steam that they should like it and use it.  It's as if Steam users need their own decisions validated by others to be assured they made the right choice, and anyone who disagrees with them is a threat to that validation.  If Steam users were so secure in their chosen service, why can't they just accept that not everyone appreciates the same things in a game provider and let each choose their own?

 

Because a lot of the reasons given (Save for the legitimacy that it is, indeed, DRM) have been about user error, examples are

 

waaaa I can't figure out how to uninstall software properly

 

waaaa I can't ignore the bad Steam green light games

 

or, waaaa I don't understand the software therefore it is inherently bad and I'm too stubborn to take the time to understand it

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Yes, and has been the way now for a few years. Offline works perfectly now.

 

I was not referring to running in offline mode.  What happens if the Steam servers go down permanently?

 

 

It is not. Steam is an enhanced Store Front now, its down to the publisher in regards to DRM.

 

1) Do you have to run Steam to install the game?

 

Yes as its just a store front same as E.g. Desura or GOG.

 

 

Your first statement contradicts your second.  If Steam is required to install the game, it is DRM.  

 

Also, you are incorrect in your comparison as it is not necessary to install or run any extra software to download and install a game from GOG; games are downloaded directly from the website, and once downloaded are complete stand-alone installation files with no need to connect online for any authentication or verification with any server.  Yes, you can use GOG Galaxy, but that is a completely optional tool for downloading and managing games, and is in no way required to install or run any purchased games. 

 

 

Because a lot of the reasons given (Save for the legitimacy that it is, indeed, DRM) have been about user error, examples are

 

waaaa I can't figure out how to uninstall software properly

 

waaaa I can't ignore the bad Steam green light games

 

or, waaaa I don't understand the software therefore it is inherently bad and I'm too stubborn to take the time to understand it

 

 

 

I've never made any such claims or complaints, yet still I get the Steam fanboys telling me I'm wrong for disliking Steam.  Then there are some Steam defenders (see other quotes above) who either can't understand or are unwilling to admit that Steam is in fact DRM.  Thanks for at least being honest about that point; it's more than I can say about others.

 

Steam is DRM.  I object to this kind of DRM on principle.  Therefore, I won't use Steam.  Nothing will change that position.  So why do so many Steam supporters feel the need to try to convince me otherwise?  Why is it so important to them that I like Steam?  Is the opinion of one faceless stranger on the internet such a threat to their self-worth?  I can think of no other explanation for the attacks and vitriol (here and in other discussions) over simply having a different opinion and preference of services.  I don't like what Steam offers, or rather what it requires in exchange for what it offers, so I don't use it.  If you like it, that's up to you; the beauty of a free market system is we can each patronize the businesses which offer what we want.  

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I've never made any such claims or complaints, yet still I get the Steam fanboys telling me I'm wrong for disliking Steam.  Then there are some Steam defenders (see other quotes above) who either can't understand or are unwilling to admit that Steam is in fact DRM.  Thanks for at least being honest about that point; it's more than I can say about others.

 

I don't think Huntar was referring to your comments. My own comments as well as other Posters fit his reply better.

 

If Huntar thinks I'm a dumb ass then so be it. I don't see a need to change his mind, not about this topic at least. Something like Steam is going to divide people like a sword.

Edited by geode
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He has destroyed wurm for all time. The game is over! Those of you who built your toons up and spent your hard earned money and time invested in this game y have lost it all! Rolf you screwed us all! I will not be back! The game is worthless now! Your game was unique thats what set it apart from Mine Craft. Now it just a carbon copy of mine craft or life is feudal or any of the other Steam games. This was dumb! Dumb dumb dumb! I go game shopping or might as well open mine craft account but im done with wurm for all time so long as its on steam!

 

Blah blah blah...not hardly. 

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