"Hidden Reserve" Auctions

[Ayes 3,715]

Every once in a while these so called "Hidden Reserve" Auctions will pop up in that section. The thing is there is really no "reserve" bid attached to them, since there is not one recorded anywhere with a reputable auction house system. Why then would anyone make an auction with a "hidden reserve"?

 

There are a few reasons I can think of. One might be to just get some indication of what an item would sell for by getting actual committed bids on it rather than players just giving "price checks", which they are under no obligation to back up with any coins. The person making an "auction" like this really has no intent on selling it and is under no obligation to do so due to a so called "hidden reserve".

 

Another reason might be to just see how high it would sell for and then if the amount is not considered enough, the "auctioneer" can just state that the reserve was not met, since of course no one can prove that that it was. Then also if the "auctioneer" does not wish to deal with the highest bidder due to some prejudice against them, they can also just state that the "reserve" was not met.

 

I use all these "quotation marks" here because these "hidden reserve" auctions are not really auctions at all, since the person posting them is under no commitment to sell the item being that there is no way for any highest bidder at the ending of them to prove that the "hidden reserve" has been met.

 

Realizing all this, what I find more surprising is that anyone would bid on these "hidden reserve" auctions in the first place. Then even more surprising is that the high bidder at the end is surprised when they don't get the item due to the "hidden reserve" not being met.

 

As Gomer Pyle would say, "Surprise, surprise, surprise!", but even he knew what the surprise was.

 

Happy Trails

=Ayes=

[topkos 494]

I don't bid on auctions with hidden reserve. I don't bid on auctions were bids or buyouts are accepted by pm. Waste of time

[Brash_Endeavors 4,735]

I would never ever ever ever bid on an auction with a so-called "hidden reserve". 

 

I cannot imagine why anyone would.

 

Basically they are saying, "all of you are committed to buy however I have no commitment to sell. 

 

They start at ridiculously low prices that they have no intention of selling for. To me it is nothing but a marketing scam -- bid really really high and I will maybe think about whether to accept any offers.

 

 

 

My experience is that people with hidden reserves have a vastly inflated idea of their items worth, but are terrified about making a mistake so they want to leave as many outs as possible for the seller, but lock in the buyers.

 

This started because they saw it at ebay. But at ebay the reserve is on record with someone official (not the seller) and people are told when the reserve has been reached. 

 

Even then it is a highly upopular type of auction and the items are rarely actually sold, unless they are truly one-of-a-kind special (not a drake set, not a rare enchanted sword,  something more unique.)

 

I did find this ebay official help page on why sellers sometimes choose to LOWER a reserve during an auction, as that option is relatively recent.

Edited September 7, 2015 by Brash_Endeavors

[Devily 623]

I dind even see the Hidden reserve (My part of my mistake from last action)

 

But only i think people should stop using hidden-reserve and just go for price checks. Since they sometimes expect to much for an item that isnt the value he is thinking. 

In future actions i will not bid on Private Buyouts or Hidden reserves anymore too.

[Aeris 3,751]

I don't place bids on auctions with a hidden reserve, but that's a choice on my part since I don't like wasting my time on it. I do however understand why they have hidden reserves and while they're not everyone's cup of tea they're a valid way of seeing whether you want to part with the item or not (use for item vs. price you can get for it).

[Brynden 69]

hidden reserve its of course pointless but you cant say that bidding on the forum really means you make a comitment to buy,you can bid as much as you want as high as you want and dont need to have any money at all.

[JakeRivers 2,921]

I have been to many auctions and have encountered from time to time some items with a reserve, it is usually a case of the owner not wanting to sell something lower than what he wants for it. The auctioneer will announce there is a reserve at the start of the bidding, and once the bidding is finished, if the reserve is not met the auctioneer will then announce what the reserve was and if anyone is interested in starting the bidding at that amount, the auction of the item will continue.

 

I have seen a few auctions here where players miss out on a chance to sell there item if that is really what they wanted to do in the first place, when all they need to do is announce what the reserve is and restart there auction timer.

[sebcoe 15]

Ebay has a hidden reserve system no?

[Brynden 69]

i think the point brash brought up its much more important,in the current system you can just use diferent forum accounts to bid in your auctions or simply bid in auctions you have no intention of paying for if you win,even if you have 0 money in your bank. if you want people to take auctions seriously,make some kinda of ingame auction system where your money its locked when you bid,until either you win and its automatically sent to the sellers bank and the item sent to you,or you are outbidded and get your money back.

[sebcoe 15]

That is the first auction I have done and TBH I copied the format from other posts I had seen, I knew this post would come out today I was waiting for it.

 

Now I knew what I wanted for both my Items and thought If I put the reserve up people would be put off so it works both ways.

 

Auctions are a good place to make money as people will start bidding wars ect.

 

But I understand that people on here might have more than one account, I found this out myself recently

 

Seb

Edited September 7, 2015 by sebcoe

[tclunatic 69]

I don't bid on auctions with hidden reserve. I don't bid on auctions were bids or buyouts are accepted by pm. Waste of time

 Me too.

 

 

i think the point brash brought up its much more important,in the current system you can just use diferent forum accounts to bid in your auctions or simply bid in auctions you have no intention of paying for if you win,even if you have 0 money in your bank. if you want people to take auctions seriously,make some kinda of ingame auction system where your money its locked when you bid,until either you win and its automatically sent to the sellers bank and the item sent to you,or you are outbidded and get your money back.

I like this idea.

[Brash_Endeavors 4,735]

Ebay has a hidden reserve system no?

 

Yes. I used to work for ebay actually, back in the late 1990s, starting when it was called Auction Web and was very non-corporate, and the staff all had names like Uncle Griff and Aunt Patty   

 

Here is the official Ebay Page On Reserve Auctions.  If you google "ebay reserve auction" you'll see they have generated debate for many years. Sellers using reserves auctions at ebay have to pay additional fees in an effort to discourage the practice, but at least everyone knows that it is an actual amount that cannot be changed at any time.  Because some sellers REALLY want reserves, they have persisted as a selling option over the years. But they tend to attract fewer bidders and many people will not bid on the item again if it is relisted, because it generates a fair amount of frustration with potential bidders.

 

However it is always a RIGHT you have and only you can decide whether it is right for your item. Everything else is ... words.

 

 

 

Edit to add: some people actually post in the ad what a reserve amount is you might wonder "why have a reserve if it is not hidden?" Part of the reason is, people think if there are a lot of bids but they never ever get close to reserve, the seller might see that their expectations were too high (at ebay you can always LOWER the reserve at any time, but never raise it).  In additon, if bidders feel they are getting close to a reserve, they know it might take just "one more bid" to reach it.  I will see if I can find examples of when the seller announced at the start what the amount of reserve is. 

 

Here also is another good article an reserve auctions and how they work out for buyer and seller:

Making Sense of eBay Auctions With a "Reserve Price"

http://ebay.about.com/od/gettingstarted/a/_ebg_reserve.htm

 

A few sections from that page that I think are worth highlighting:

• Reserve auctions often end with few/low bids. Because of the uncertainty described above, many bidders are reluctant to place bids on reserve auctions. As a result, it's actually common for reserve auctions to show a current bid well below the going rate for the item in question, and for the item to receive fewer bids than a matching non-reserve item-which tends to make it less likely that the reserve price will actually be met!

Reserve prices can be higher than you'd expect. Reserve prices are often set by sellers just "testing the water" or who have unreasonable expectations, so it's also common to realize, as bids go higher and higher and the reserve remains unmet, that the reserve price on a given auction is set at an unreasonably high level and all bidders are effectively wasting their time.

Reserve auctions are often used by less experienced sellers. Because they tend to generate fewer bids and are designed to protect a seller that isn't sure of the market value of his or her goods, reserve auctions are often used by new or inexperienced eBay sellers that may be slower to communicate, offer customer service, and/or ship goods.

 

As said though, ONLY YOU CAN DECIDE so stick to your guns if you feel absolutely sure this is what you want. 

Just because some of us have opinions do not make those opinions more or less valid than yours 

Edited September 7, 2015 by Brash_Endeavors

[sebcoe 15]

Would it not make more sense to have the hidden reserve sent to an admin via PM  at the time of the auction going live so people cant change it.

[Pandalet 1,848]

It is, of course, your choice as a seller to have a reserve, hidden or otherwise.  If you have a minimum value you're prepared to accept for your thing, then by all means, set that value as a reserve.  Starting bidding at a lower value is also entirely your choice, and I can see how one might do this to stimulate interest.  However, if your reserve is hidden, the (potential) buyers have no idea what you want until afterwards, and as you're the only person who knows what your minimum price is, and there's no 'official' trusted third party in place to enforce it, nobody knows whether the value is actually fixed or even whether there is a value at all.

 

As a buyer, I will not bid in auctions with hidden reserves.  If the seller wants more than I'm prepared to pay for something, then fair enough, I know I can ignore that sale and move on.  I have no problem with people charging whatever they like, but I do object to my time being wasted when I'm making bids in good faith.  If you think if you "...put the reserve up people would be put off...", then those people wouldn't have bought your item anyway, so all you really would have done was save them some time and effort by clearly stating what you wanted.

[GoldFever 299]

Reserves or hidden reserves don't bother me any, seller's right.  I'll bid with the knowledge that likely not going to win even if I win, but I have a price in mind I'll pay and if seller should choose to sell, great.  If not, oh well, no harm done.

 

Having said that, if you want to maximize the price you are going to get for an item, pretty silly to use a hidden reserve in my view.  Stated reserves are fine though, kind of like having a minimum start point but seller might go lower if they feel they overestimated the worth and still want to sell, so feel free to offer something lower if that is what it is worth to you.

[Chiqa 742]

I don't understand why have a hidden reserve. Start bid should theoretic  reflect lowest price accepted by owner. In my mind anyway.  For this reason I do not bid on items that have a hidden reserve.

Edited September 7, 2015 by Chiqa

[topkos 494]

Ebay has a hidden reserve system no?

[AndreC 48]

Hidden reserve, buyout via PM (in cases other than accounts), hidden buyouts, and bids via PM drive me away from an auction.

 

With nothing to enforce a reserve, my real reserve can be 100s, and i can start the bid at 90s, easily passing that..... Mind this example doesn't take supply/demand into account or anything at all really.

With buyouts via PM's on standard items.... Well why have an auction. Accounts are different IMO, especially ones that may end up going to Chaos. Not everyone wants to be known as the new owner, and get a drop on someone.

With hidden buyouts, which is literally a hidden reserve basically, buyers have to guess if something is really a value. Clearly the seller doesn't want to disclose how much they think they can get, so it's a nice gimmick.

With bids via PM... Well, once again, pretty sketch. They can say they got a bid for 50s, when it was really 10s, to draw out an actual high bidder.

 

I only really like clean auctions. Clear start bid, clear min. increments, clear buyout if there is one. Anything else seems to scream attention in some cases.

 

 

Oh, and for ebay, the only reason their reserve system can work, is because there's a company that stands behind said reserve. Far as I know, reserves can only be lowered but not raised. It's an unbiased platform that they can uphold a hidden reserve with. Here, we can't unless a system is literally developed just for auctions.

[Ayes 3,715]

As I stated in my OP, the problem with Hidden Reserve Auctions within Wurm is that there is no record of the "hidden reserve" kept by this auction system; whereas all reputable Auctions in the outside world have a record of this hidden reserve required to be within their system, thereby making both it and the hidden reserve system legitimate.

 

This being the case, these types of Auctions are subject to abuse in various ways and facilitate that very well. Even if some simple confirmation of record of this hidden reserve were enabled within Wurm Auctions then it would be a viable and legitimate alternative to use. Still, even then it is just a tease effect when the individual could just as well post a reserve within their Auction for all to see.

 

Perhaps the best alternative would be for "hidden reserve" Auctions to be disallowed to be posted here, if the Developers don't want to have any involvement with the recording of the Reserve in these types of Auctions. This would at least be taking an ethical stand against this practice rather than turning a blind eye to it, implying a buyer beware sort of wink at it.

 

=Ayes=

[Theshrike 48]

Why would devs get involved in player trades? Are you some kind of communist?

 

You don't even need to mention a hidden reserve,  you can just run an auction and not sell if you don't think the price was high enough.

[Alyeska 2,621]

hidden reserve its of course pointless but you cant say that bidding on the forum really means you make a comitment to buy,you can bid as much as you want as high as you want and dont need to have any money at all.

 

I've had this happen a few times lately; people bidding on an item, winning it, and not responding or backing out on their bid. "I forgot that I bidded" "I already bought another one" "I don't have money right now"

I will not hesitate to refuse to sell to certain people who have done things like this in the past, whether that is by protecting with a more subtle hidden reserve or, more like me, just bluntly telling them to not bother bidding, lol

 

 

As far as forbidding it? I don't see the point. You don't want to partake in an auction with a hidden reserve, then don't. Same with private offers, I do understand why that is open for possible inflation of prices - if you don't trust or like their auction, don't bid!

[Niki 2,278]

People have the right to sell for whatever they want, reserves have been around for while on the internet and even in real life - think you'll have trouble getting change overnight. What I've notice is some individuals are not fond of the capitalist approach some people take here on these forums. It looks like a cultural differences because wurm consists of many people from around the globe and not everyone approves of profiteering, most of the time you can just avoid those auctions instead of being rude? Not sure why these players do this and it's always a group of players, take a look at my supreme glimmersteel thread for data. It's a toss up of jealously and arrogance for the most part. While not having a set price for my weapon I was asked for a price by a epic player seconds later my thread turns into a battle between epic and freedom.

 

http://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/129957-close-thread/

 

Sebcoe's reserves were probably 30s each on both the shield and the sword which history shows that's a fair price I would of bidded higher on the shield but I let Mith have it, while some people would of probably take the 27s and been happy the seller has the right to his auctions, you do not have to be apart of these auctions if you do not like it.

 

Tl:dr - Most of it comes down to culture differences and planned derailing because they do not like that person.

Edited September 7, 2015 by Niki

[SmeJack 5,798]

"This is not a discussion, you PM me and I will tell you the price" was what you had written in bold though you deleted and changed your tune now. Why force people to PM you for a price and not just state it for everyone to see? Just looks dodgy.

If someone decides not to sell something that's their choice IMO

[Kadore 926]

I think hidden reserves serve a purpose for items with little or no price history, with a hidden reserve it may get met early or the seller may decide to remove it it the bids stagnate.

Listing your reserve with a lower starting price makes no sense which is why reserves are typically hidden.

[Battlepaw 585]

We all use the "auction timer", and there is a script that players use to track twitter for things like the HOTA, all from an external site?    Well, why can't we add the ability on to forums to put a "reserve" link, and when the timer on the link runs out or the orignal poster types in a reveal code, it reveals, or shows it as "met" under the recorded amount?  Ideally the reveal code serves as an encryption key, and each reserve bid that is recorded is encrypted.  So no one can read it until the auction ends. (even if they have access to the data)  

 

I'ts not a hard concept, and I doubt it would take much effort to put together. I've seen more complicated external and official tools developed for wurm than that, by a far long shot.  And, if you really want to make it "fair" so the seller actually has an obligation to honor the trade, just make it against the rules to post any auction with a hidden reserve without recording the reserve.   Any auction put up without recording the hidden reserve will be required to record it, or the auction is deemed invalid and the post locked/deleted.    Any auction cannot end until the reserve is revealed, either it met or the auction ends.    

 

The seller has a responsibility to honor a trade, and not screw around with people that want a fair price or at least a valid auction from them in return.    I don't care if this places a "burden" on a seller that they no longer can rip people off.    If you object to it on that grounds, you really have no business participating in any auction, and are a poison to the wurm community.    

Edited September 7, 2015 by Battlepaw