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Arsenic

Dispute - Community Poll

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Hello all, 

I got into a dispute with Dannysgirl, about buying her horses, something went wrong and I feel she wronged me while she thinks it's fair. We decided to let the community decide. 
I will try to explain it as neutral as I can be. 


I was looking for buying horses. She responded and said they are 80c each. I offered 1s for 2 horses, she agreed.
I ended up buying 2 5speeders, 2 4speeders(20c/e) and 2 saddles. Paid for all of the items nothing was free.

It took us a while to meet, I was on my ship and she had to deliver the horses to a close shore to her deed. I appreciate that.

I paid her upfront.
I asked her if she can saddle the 5speeders so they don't scatter around if I DC'd while travelling back home.
She said she doesn't have grass, I traded her some.
She saddled them but I couldn't lead the 4th horse because it was tamed.
When she was taiming her own horse to drop the tame on the sold horse, her horse aggroed and killed one of the 5speeders(It was a little one.)
 
First, she offered me her own horse. And said she would walk back. I said that is not necessary, I could come back for a replacement horse. 
Then she changed her mind and said she won't replace the horse because she said:

It was my fault to assume she can tame horse to saddle it.
And she already gave me a good discount so I should just walk away.

Naturally we couldn't agree and I said I am willing to accept the community's decision. 

I feel she is due for a refund/replacement since she never provided a 4th horse which is available to lead. And she agreed to the discount and saddling.

I'm sure she has things to say in her own favor as well.

I appreciate your time and effort for making things right.


Here's the related conversation log:

 

Logging started 2015-09-06
[03:13:22] Dannysgirl I have 5 speeds for sale on G25 80c each
[03:22:09] Mortal Ah, I'm gonna have to sail back then
[03:22:21] Mortal just passed there
[03:22:51] Dannysgirl How many do you want?
[03:23:01] Dannysgirl 2 breeding pairs?
[03:24:44] Mortal can you do 50s each if I buy 2 horses?
[03:25:11] Dannysgirl 50s? Guessing you mean copper
[03:25:22] Mortal oh yes
[03:25:47] Dannysgirl Hm
[03:26:32] Dannysgirl Yeah ok.
[03:26:40] Dannysgirl Are you wanting male or female, or one of each
[03:26:42] Mortal alright, turning around
[03:27:00] Mortal going against the wind will take a moment
[03:27:27] Dannysgirl It's alright

------
 

[04:40:48] Dannysgirl> There you are
[04:40:49] Mortal> hi
[04:41:00] Dannysgirl> I need to be off deed or you won't be able to lead the horses
[04:41:08] Mortal> here
[04:41:21] Mortal> let me pull my ship here
[04:41:30] Dannysgirl> This is on another deed
[04:43:16] Mortal> can you also saddle the 5speeders?
[04:43:22] Mortal> so they dont run
[04:43:30] Dannysgirl> I don't have anything to tame them with
[04:43:38] Dannysgirl> also we have to be off deed to do any of this
[04:43:51] Mortal> water is not on deed
[04:44:18] Dannysgirl> Are you sure?
[04:44:53] Mortal> yers
[04:45:03] Dannysgirl> 20c each for the 4 speeds
[04:45:25] Mortal> oh yeah sorry
[04:45:35] Mortal> accept this
[04:45:40] Mortal> I'll run to the bank
[04:45:53] Dannysgirl> K. I have to go tame these
[04:46:54] Mortal> you can not tame them in the water can you?
[04:47:03] Dannysgirl> No the middle of the bridge is off deed
[04:47:17] Mortal> perfect
[04:49:15] Dannysgirl> Ok. You got it from here?
[04:49:41] Mortal> you have to untame the little one
[04:50:02] Mortal> you might need to tame your own horse
[04:50:30] Dannysgirl> Yeah that's what I'm doing
[04:51:30] Mortal> did you "no target"?
[04:51:38] Mortal> that's what always I forget to do
[04:52:22] Dannysgirl> [02:52:28] Mortal does not accept pets now. He needs to type /invitations in a chat window.
[04:52:28] Dannysgirl> I can just give it to you
[04:53:00] Mortal> hmm I'd rather not do that
[04:53:08] Mortal> Then I would need to tame a horse
[04:53:12] Mortal> to drop the tame
[04:53:14] Dannysgirl> I don't have anything to tame my horse
[04:53:24] Mortal> right click the floor and select no target
[04:53:33] Dannysgirl> I did it's still attacking
[04:53:36] Mortal> then he should let you go
[04:53:37] Dannysgirl> I have nothing to tame it with
[04:53:45] Mortal> darn
[04:54:06]Dannysgirl> I have to go to sleep I have work tomorrow
[04:54:23]Mortal> what do you want me to do?
[04:54:42] Dannysgirl> Dunno what else to do we're on someone else's deed
[04:55:01] Dannysgirl> Do the invitations thing
[04:55:14] Mortal> how do I do it?
[04:55:20] Dannysgirl> Wait a second he's dead
[04:55:21] Dannysgirl> Wtf
[04:55:32] Dannysgirl> Ugh -_-
[04:56:30] Mortal> how did that happen?
[04:56:42] Dannysgirl> My horse probably killed it while it was aggro
[04:57:07] Mortal> that sucks
[04:57:13] Dannysgirl> Just take my horse I'll walk back tomorrow
[04:57:20] Dannysgirl> I really don't have time to fuss around anymore
[04:57:31] Mortal> take your horse
[04:57:37] Mortal> you ove me 5 speeder
[04:57:55] Dannysgirl> well tbh you probably should have tamed them yourself.
[04:57:55] Mortal> we'll deal with it later
[04:57:59] Dannysgirl> And I'm short a horse now.
[04:58:09] Mortal> I cant taim horses
[04:58:09] Dannysgirl> So. I don't know that that is fair.
[04:59:48] Dannysgirl> well you shouldn't have assumed I could have either.
[04:59:54] Dannysgirl> Or that I would tame them for you.
[05:00:04] Mortal> well, you said you can
[05:00:12] Dannysgirl> No, I said I'd give you saddles.
[05:00:17] Dannysgirl> I didn't know I'd be taming them for you.
[05:00:19] Mortal> you're tired now, we'll talk about it later.
[05:00:35] Dannysgirl> And I already cut the price on the horses down for you.
[05:00:44] Mortal> you want them back?
[05:00:54] Mortal> I'm happy to give them back
[05:01:31] Dannysgirl> No, they're paid for.
[05:02:17] Mortal> I paid for 2 speeders and 2 4 speeders, you killed one. That's the story. Don't blame me please.
[05:02:29] Dannysgirl> Um no, my horse killed one, which you told me to tame.
[05:02:38] Dannysgirl> Because you didn't want to deal with taming the one you bought.
[05:02:49] Dannysgirl> After I never agreed to go to the trouble of all that in the first place.
[05:03:41] Mortal> hey, either take back the horses, and give me my money, or please complete the deal. I appreciate you came all over here, but you agreed to all of it.
[05:04:13] Dannysgirl> I gave you what you paid for it's not my fault you expected me to do extra stuff for you.
[05:05:17] Dannysgirl> Maybe you should ask next time instead of assuming.
[05:05:39] Mortal> what am I gonna ask exactly? if you know how to tame a horse? you are a animal breeder
[05:05:46] Mortal> you said you would do it. end of story.
[05:05:55] Dannysgirl> I said I would give you horses, and saddles, which I did.
[05:05:56] Mortal> sleep now, we'll talk tomorrow
[05:05:58] Mortal> geez
[05:06:11] Dannysgirl> You assumed I could tame, which I clearly am not that good at. I'm a Fo priest, for your information, and have a spell for that.
[05:06:19] Dannysgirl> Therefore no need for it.
[05:07:55] Mortal> did you click on the tame command on your menu? not I. it's nothing to do with me
[05:09:01] Mortal> fine I'll put it on the forums with the chat log tomorrow and let the community decide
[05:12:11] Dannysgirl> Go ahead a lot of people would agree it's a mstake of understanding game mechanics. I've taken screenshots as well.

 

Here's the whole conversation:

 

 

Logging started 2015-09-06


[03:13:22] I have 5 speeds for sale on G25 80c each
[03:22:09] Ah, I'm gonna have to sail back then
[03:22:21] just passed there
[03:22:51] How many do you want?
[03:23:01] 2 breeding pairs?
[03:24:44] can you do 50s each if I buy 2 horses?
[03:25:11] 50s? Guessing you mean copper
[03:25:22] oh yes
[03:25:47] Hm
[03:26:32] Yeah ok.
[03:26:40] Are you wanting male or female, or one of each
[03:26:42] alright, turning around
[03:27:00] going against the wind will take a moment
[03:27:27] It's alright
[03:30:05] you wouldnt have enchanted saddles would you?
[03:31:41] No, sadly I'm not that advanced.
[03:45:44] I must have passed you
[03:46:22] I'm at h26 guard tower
[03:48:55] G25 is inland
[03:49:19] I suggest going to Heavenholm port on F something and I'll meet you there
[03:49:19] hmm
[03:49:35] ahaha
[03:49:41] I was there when you contacted me
[03:49:46] heading there now
[03:50:00] do you have adoslecent horses?
[03:50:02] Ok.
[03:50:10] You mean like breeding age?
[03:50:27] I want them as young as possible
[03:50:29] I have some males that are that age but the females are all young
[03:50:38] Oh ok. were you wanting males or females
[03:50:47] I have some that were born yesterday of both
[03:51:32] that might be too young
[03:52:19] I have an adol female
[03:52:33] what color?
[03:52:45] And a young male both gold
[03:53:16] anything black?
[03:53:25] Not 5 speed
[03:53:35] I have a couple black 4 speed males
[03:53:44] But they have extra traits
[03:53:53] anything 5 speed but not gold?
[03:55:02] I have one brown female
[03:55:08] Only gold males
[03:56:18] I'll take a gold male and a brown female
[03:56:28] how much for 4speeders?
[03:56:34] Ok.
[03:56:40] They're 20c each
[03:57:05] ok I'll take two black 4speeders as well
[03:57:15] You don't mind the extra traits?
[03:57:24] bad traits?
[03:57:42] One has strong and healthy
[03:57:52] The other has fight fiercly
[03:58:36] I'll take the strong and healty
[03:58:45] any other colors on 4speeders?
[03:59:12] Yeah lots of gold lol
[03:59:22] have one with 4 speed and spark
[04:00:04] And another with healthy
[04:00:30] do you perhaps have 4 speeders with strong legs and carry more than avarage?
[04:00:47] I'm not worried about the fighting fiercly one
[04:01:00] Yeah the black one with strong and healthy has both of those
[04:01:08] great I'll take them both
[04:01:16] do you have cheap saddles?
[04:01:18] Both of the black ones?
[04:01:30] oh wait
[04:01:54] I want the 4 speeders to have strong legs and carry capacity
[04:02:50] I have another black 4 speed that has both and tough .
[04:03:36] great
[04:03:43] Which ones do you want
[04:03:54] 2 of the black 4 speeds and the 2 5 speeds?
[04:04:00] yes
[04:04:02] Ok
[04:04:09] gold male, brown female 5 speeders
[04:06:15] K. Heading over with the horses
[04:06:27] do you have cheap saddleS?
[04:06:28] you know where heavenholm port is?
[04:06:36] I only have some 30ql ones I think
[04:07:34] is it with the giant vyn statue?
[04:07:58] No that's opelika I think
[04:08:23] heavensport is more north?
[04:08:32] Heavenholm port is in the little thingie inland
[04:08:45] Yeah it's like
[04:08:51] On the opposite side of opelika
[04:09:14] I"m on a boat I cant go inland
[04:09:31] It's right on the shore
[04:09:33] It's a port.
[04:10:14] It's near on like F24ish
[04:11:16] does it have a lot of merchants?
[04:11:22] I have 5 30ql saddles
[04:11:34] heavenholm port doesn't.
[04:11:47] yes I'm at opelica
[04:11:54] shoudl I go south or north from here?
[04:12:07] Idk where you are
[04:12:14] Oh opelika
[04:12:18] yes
[04:12:23] North
[04:13:04] Do you want the saddles for 10c each
[04:13:08] Or no
[04:13:10] yes
[04:13:15] 2 saddles
[04:13:27] so that if I DC they dont all scatter
[04:14:10] Ok
[04:17:15] hmm f24 you say
[04:17:26] I could meet you at opelika
[04:17:48] I have to go to bed soon I don't want you to get lost and be searchign.
[04:17:57] ok if you dont mind
[04:18:46] Yeah omw
[04:24:24] I"m here, I'll relog real quick
Logging started 2015-09-06
[04:30:47] in the market
[04:30:55] Almost there
[04:34:51] Where is the market
[04:35:09] on the bridge south of it
[04:35:15] I'm overlooking to the market
[04:37:12] Idk where that is
[04:37:26] What are the names of some buildings near it this is a huge place
[04:37:57] do you see the huge ship named opelika?
[04:38:21] it's moored quasi in front of respite of the four gods
[04:38:30] right by the merchants
[04:38:34] by the sea
[04:39:36] next to the huge vyn statue
[04:40:48] There you are
[04:40:49] hi
[04:41:00] I need to be off deed or you won't be able to lead the horses
[04:41:08] here
[04:41:21] let me pull my ship here
[04:41:30] This is on another deed
[04:43:16] can you also saddle the 5speeders?
[04:43:22] so they dont run
[04:43:30] I don't have anything to tame them with
[04:43:38] also we have to be off deed to do any of this
[04:43:51] water is not on deed
[04:44:18] Are you sure?
[04:44:53] yers
[04:45:03] 20c each for the 4 speeds
[04:45:25] oh yeah sorry
[04:45:35] accept this
[04:45:40] I'll run to the bank
[04:45:53] K. I have to go tame these
[04:46:54] you can not tame them in the water can you?
[04:47:03] No the middle of the bridge is off deed
[04:47:17] perfect
[04:49:15] Ok. You got it from here?
[04:49:41] you have to untame the little one
[04:50:02] you might need to tame your own horse
[04:50:30] Yeah that's what I'm doing
[04:51:30] did you "no target"?
[04:51:38] that's what always I forget to do
[04:52:22] [02:52:28] Mortal does not accept pets now. He needs to type /invitations in a chat window.
[04:52:28] I can just give it to you
[04:53:00] hmm I'd rather not do that
[04:53:08] Then I would need to tame a horse
[04:53:12] to drop the tame
[04:53:14] I don't have anything to tame my horse
[04:53:24] right click the floor and select no target
[04:53:33] I did it's still attacking
[04:53:36] then he should let you go
[04:53:37] I have nothing to tame it with
[04:53:45] darn
[04:54:06] I have to go to sleep I have work tomorrow
[04:54:23] what do you want me to do?
[04:54:42] Dunno what else to do we're on someone else's deed
[04:55:01] Do the invitations thing
[04:55:14] how do I do it?
[04:55:20] Wait a second he's dead
[04:55:21] Wtf
[04:55:32] Ugh -_-
[04:56:30] how did that happen?
[04:56:42] My horse probably killed it while it was aggro
[04:57:07] that sucks
[04:57:13] Just take my horse I'll walk back tomorrow
[04:57:20] I really don't have time to fuss around anymore
[04:57:31] take your horse
[04:57:37] you ove me 5 speeder
[04:57:55] well tbh you probably should have tamed them yourself.
[04:57:55] we'll deal with it later
[04:57:59] And I'm short a horse now.
[04:58:09] I cant taim horses
[04:58:09] So. I don't know that that is fair.
[04:59:48] well you shouldn't have assumed I could have either.
[04:59:54] Or that I would tame them for you.
[05:00:04] well, you said you can
[05:00:12] No, I said I'd give you saddles.
[05:00:17] I didn't know I'd be taming them for you.
[05:00:19] you're tired now, we'll talk about it later.
[05:00:35] And I already cut the price on the horses down for you.
[05:00:44] you want them back?
[05:00:54] I'm happy to give them back
[05:01:31] No, they're paid for.
[05:02:17] I paid for 2 speeders and 2 4 speeders, you killed one. That's the story. Don't blame me please.
[05:02:29] Um no, my horse killed one, which you told me to tame.
[05:02:38] Because you didn't want to deal with taming the one you bought.
[05:02:49] After I never agreed to go to the trouble of all that in the first place.
[05:03:41] hey, either take back the horses, and give me my money, or please complete the deal. I appreciate you came all over here, but you agreed to all of it.
[05:04:13] I gave you what you paid for it's not my fault you expected me to do extra stuff for you.
[05:05:17] Maybe you should ask next time instead of assuming.
[05:05:39] what am I gonna ask exactly? if you know how to tame a horse? you are a animal breeder
[05:05:46] you said you would do it. end of story.
[05:05:55] I said I would give you horses, and saddles, which I did.
[05:05:56] sleep now, we'll talk tomorrow
[05:05:58] geez
[05:06:11] You assumed I could tame, which I clearly am not that good at. I'm a Fo priest, for your information, and have a spell for that.
[05:06:19] Therefore no need for it.
[05:07:55] did you click on the tame command on your menu? not I. it's nothing to do with me
[05:09:01] fine I'll put it on the forums with the chat log tomorrow and let the community decide
[05:12:11] Go ahead a lot of people would agree it's a mstake of understanding game mechanics. I've taken screenshots as well.

Edited by Arsenic
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Its a horse i am sure she has many if it was me i would offer a replacement to the buyer since i could just breed more.


Edited by Kegan
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Seems like you deserve a refund or replacement horse. You were sold four horses, and due to her actions one of them was killed. That's entirely on her. She got a horse mad while taming, and that horse killed the other horse; it's not your fault that she wasn't taming it safely.


 


I haven't read the logs yet because their formatting is messed up and the names aren't visible, so I could certainly be wrong in my assessment.


 


 


EDIT: After trying to read the logs a bit... yeah, you're definitely in the right here, or at least it seems that way. You couldn't lead a horse she sold you because it was tame, so you requested she untame it by taming another. That's reasonable enough. Moreover, if she screwed up the taming process and got one of the sold horses killed, that is by no means your fault. Requesting that she tame a different animal does NOT imply that it's your fault if she messes that up and gets the first one killed.


Edited by Ostentatio

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it seems like an unfortunate situation all together, i would think her being a breeder she wouldnt have made a mistake like that, and only ones with agro trait will agro right? seems like an oversight or ignorance on her part, it was a good deal but she agreed to everything, its a bad situation though someone has to take a loss


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You bought the horses which she delivered to you.


You then asked her to saddle them which requires taming. In the process of taming, one of the horses you bought was killed.


 


Sounds like Dannysgirl went above and beyond many times. (Discount on not just 2 but 4 horses, saddles, and delivery) and was nice enough to offer you their horse when the taming went wrong and walk home...


 


If it were me, i'd thank them and move on. :)


Edited by Tuanta
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I take it she knew what unsafe taming does and yet she did it. It's clearly her fault you're 1 horse short and the replacement should come to an effect.


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Letting a customer leave unhappy over 50c, that's not how you do business...


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Oh Freedom....


 


My take on this is, while the initial part of the deal was fullfilled by her the special additions to the deal the taming parts were not necessarily her fault.


 


How no one can control some horses however is beyond my understanding.

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My take on this is, while the initial part of the deal was fullfilled by her the special additions to the deal the taming parts were not necessarily her fault.
 
 
If someone kills your horse, it's their fault. She is responsible for getting the horse killed, since she attempted to tame the other horse in an unsafe manner (trying to tame a horse right next to another horse  you already have tamed is likely to cause the first one to attack the second). Yeah, she went above and beyond at first... but then got one of the sold horses killed due entirely to her own negligence.
Edited by Ostentatio

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Some deal was made, buyer already paid, then as i see, the seller must fulfill the agreement, if she had some concerns, she should cleared it BEFORE accepting the payment.


 


Once she got the money is her duty to deliver, even if she think the deal is not fair.


 


Buyer paid for 6 horses but only got 5, to me that's a scam.


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I paid extra for the horses and the saddles.


 


50c for each 5speeder


20c for each 4speeder


10c for each q30 saddle



Which I received only one saddle, the other one is in on the dead horse.


 




You bought the horses which she delivered to you.


You then asked her to saddle them which requires taming. In the process of taming, one of the horses you bought was killed.


 


Sounds like Dannysgirl went above and beyond many times. (Discount on not just 2 but 4 horses, saddles, and delivery) and was nice enough to offer you their horse when the taming went wrong and walk home...


 


If it were me, i'd thank them and move on. :)



Edited by Arsenic

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If you buy 4 tires from a shop and they put a hole in one while finishing up, do they leave you with a flat or ask you to pay for another?

Poor business to not replace. Should never have tamed if not willing to replace.

Edited by Baid
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step 1. make friends


step 2. never buy anything from anyone ever on freedom (it will save you drama, and you can get everything for free if you talk to someone for thirty seconds anyway.)


step 3. sell everything you make extremely overpriced


step 4. sell two gold a month for euro


 


hello


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Rng is a b...ch , so someone that breeds horse knows better to unequip the weapon before taming. Seller fault. Always make the other party in a business happy. Its the only way to have more business

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She agreed to replace it and then changed her mind, that's a really bad business practice and shady, people might not like you in this game for [insert a reason here] but business is honest and is one of the good qualities of wurm for the most part. I am at a loss for words reading this and pretty applaud someone would try this. She should of just given you another horse.


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I paid extra for the horses and the saddles.

 

50c for each 5speeder

20c for each 4speeder

10c for each q30 saddle

Which I received only one saddle, the other one is in on the dead horse.

Seller offered you their horse which I assume also had a saddle, which you declined.

 

Either case sounds like a load of miscommunication (on both sides) and a series of bad events.

 

Come to Pristine to live and get all of the above for a smile and a thank you. :D

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I would say you both share responsibility for this.  After the deal was made you requested extra service in the taming and saddling of 2 of the horses which you could have taken the time to do. Dannysgirl then attemted to do this for you without ensuring the separation of the animals or making you aware that sometimes taming animals can result in them becoming aggressive.  Your saddle and horse are setting there on the ground pick them up.  Good customer service would be for Dannysgirl to provide another 5 speed horse that you can pick up at your leisure at their place. 


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The contractual obligation and the moral right obligation are not always the same thing.  I'd hope despite the unfortunate situation the seller would make right and whole on the deal for which you agreed to and replace the horse that was killed in the process.


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playing on epic/chaos I look at freedom as if it's one of the war ravaged middle eastern countries 


:^)


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I am also in the camp that both sides share some responsibility. One thing to keep in mind, when you said 


[05:00:19] Mortal> you're tired now, we'll talk about it later.


[05:05:56] Mortal> sleep now, we'll talk tomorrow


it was maybe meant on your side to not really mean anything, but to a person already mildly irrate it might come across as "you are not being rational so lets have this conversation when you ARE rational." At that point you will probably have trashed any hope of a mutual agreement. 


Also even tired, the breeder to me sounded more initially accommodating (offering their own horse and to walk back) until both sides started to dig in their heels. 


Once you start on that stubborn spiral, it is extremely hard to back out of it. For both sides. Either could have backed down but neither thought they were obligated to. 


For both sides, I am not sure if the community drama is worth a horse. But I think which ever party offers a peace branch at this point and takes the loss without making an emotional fuss about it, would be seen as the more mature player. 


My initial reaction as a breeder is, I would have replaced the horse. It is just smart business. You are much more likely in the future to buy more horses and to recommend the breeder to others, potential business which they forever lost now. That's not smart of them. 


But honestly. I also get cranky and stubborn if I am dealing with aggressive people and that can make me a lot more difficult to deal with, than if I am dealing with a more accommodating person. 


 


 


If this is up to a community vote, my vote goes to whichever party says "keeping you as a friendly acquaintance  is more important to me than a horse :) so I would like to change my original stance. "


 




playing on epic/chaos I look at freedom as if it's one of the war ravaged middle eastern countries 


:^)



 



 


Yes because the pvp servers are so drama free ^_^ we know.


Edited by Brash_Endeavors
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