Selling Toons

[Marlon 303]

There wasn't a problem that I was aware of, more of a simple curiosity.

Edited August 26, 2015 by Marlon

[Ayes 3,715]

Point blank, *boom*, players buy character accounts to shortcut the process of building those skills themselves. No mystery here. Some see this as being worthwhile somehow and since the game encourages this process, feel fine about doing so.

 

To me buying someone else's account would ruin the game experience of character progress for me, which is what a good portion of the game is, as I see it. All my characters have been created by myself and skills built up by myself because well, I enjoy doing so.

 

Still, I think the endorsed ability to purchase characters diminishes the game for everyone, since if you shell out the money you can obtain the efforts others have put into their characters and not do so yourself. This is the way things are, so not much can be done about that but if you think I am going to respect someone who has purchased a high skilled character doing nothing to achieve those skills, well then at least that is something I can act on by not having any for them.

 

=Ayes=

[Griffith 362]

geez from the ops passive aggressiveness and others posting that people who buy toons

dont deserve their "respect". lol what is this? some kind of church or moral fraternity?

its just a game.

 

i respect people who just play the game how they want without ruining for other people.

not if they spent 5 years grinding skills.

 

maybe those people who buy toons spend many hours at work and dont have the time

to grind or for whatever reason. but its ridiculous the extreme the op in an underhanded

way and some others are putting down people who buy or sell toons are expressing.

 

for the record i have never sold or bought toons, and dont think i ever will.

too cheap to buy and to lazy to sell and redo.

 

tl;dr   its just a game and its allowed by the rules of the game

 

[Marlon 303]

oooh, defensive, relax, you missed the point, and secondly, I asked a question.

You would make a great maths teacher.

 

PS: yes it is a game, and i dont mind or care how people play, I was interested in the details.

 

Thanks, had a good laugh there. 

Edited August 26, 2015 by Marlon

[thirtynine 257]

I dont see the difference from buying a toon, to buying an weapon or buying an improvement, or buying any other service.  Would it matter if you paid in game silver you earned in game from imping/selling services in game to pay for so called better toon?  Everything has a value, all items/services have a price.  Buying a toon is nothing more than any other trade.  This is just another form of an exchange.  x dollars = x euros = x wurm silvers = x time = x bricks = x anything = x fun.  In the end you should be trading something for the most amount of fun possible.  Simple equation to me.  Its up to the individual to fill in x.   Everyone is different to some degree as to what the ratio's are.

[Wurmhole 3,650]

You don't have to respect Rodney Dangerfield, but not respecting someone because they bought an alt to enhance their game play seems short sighted. I say this as someone that has as many as 20 alts from other people at one time.  I had massive projects to accomplish and I hired bodies to get them done.  I'm not doing any projects now and have laid most of them off.  Simple as that.  I am me and my alts are my tools/employees.

 

Like 39 says above, what is the difference between buying an alt, a tool, or a boat full of bricks?  I really can't think of one.  I've bought alts that made bricks and tools.  Sort of the same thing, right?

 

The OP asks some good questions and it is certainly a polarized set of responses, but as long as the option exists and isn't breaking rules, it is ultimately a player choice and preference for their own play style.

 

Think of it this way:  Some boys make girl toons.  Some people think that is unacceptable and some think it is totally fine.

[Wulfgarr 810]

You don't have to respect Rodney Dangerfield, but not respecting someone because they bought an alt to enhance their game play seems short sighted. I say this as someone that has as many as 20 alts from other people at one time.  I had massive projects to accomplish and I hired bodies to get them done.  I'm not doing any projects now and have laid most of them off.  Simple as that.  I am me and my alts are my tools/employees.

 

Like 39 says above, what is the difference between buying an alt, a tool, or a boat full of bricks?  I really can't think of one.  I've bought alts that made bricks and tools.  Sort of the same thing, right?

 

The OP asks some good questions and it is certainly a polarized set of responses, but as long as the option exists and isn't breaking rules, it is ultimately a player choice and preference for their own play style.

 

Think of it this way:  Some boys make girl toons.  Some people think that is unacceptable and some think it is totally fine.

I agree with this and thirtynine 100%. Its not about the money but gameplay and time. I started playing and could play 2-3h per day. I would never ever get to the point in a year or 2 while grinding my whole gametime (should be entertainment) to the point that i could achieve by spending 100-200€. That 100-200€ would get me a semi decent account and i could instead use the time i have to play the game for something i enjoy (building, hunting, pvp). Now i play much more 4-5h per day and i still sometimes buy accounts (if i see something going under the real price of the account or good priced priests) because if i take an account that is a year or 2 old and divide the time it takes to grind it vs 100-200€ that is easily achievable IRL in a week or 2 (atleast for me) then its not a brainer for me. I take it that i save a year or 2 - that is 12-24 months meaning 365 or 730 days of playing (ofc you dont play everyday or what ever) vs 100-200€. If you take a look at that you realise that the daily amount of playtime comes down to € or less and the decision is should i spend a day grinding or should i pay. Add the pvp aspect to it where body stats (one of the things that take the most of the time)+ meditation make such a huge difference and the decision is rather easy.

[bennyrose 19]

i buy accounts because i takes too much time to get the skills myself 

regardless some people have time and that is very good, but for thoses who have limited play time...

Edited August 27, 2015 by bennyrose

[Dairuka 888]

Ahoy there

 

So, this is by no means criticism, or judgement. I just need to know, understand, it'll help me cope.

 

I want to know why people BUY skilled toons... I already why they sell them... money. People would sell their all their limbs if they could.

 

Money is a motive for most of what we do in life. So I agree with you there.

 

I sell accounts for in game money every now and then. Although, most of my account sales came from what I call "throwaway" accounts. (Priest accounts that were used predominantly to shore up numbers for a sermon, that are no longer useful in that regard. Essentially their primary purpose is complete, the moment the sermon is no longer necessary.)

 

This means that I usually just dump them on the auction block with the intention of letting them go for whatever the public deems their value to be based on the auction. I make some money back for my investment. If they don't sell, I mostly just keep them around for the occasional animal caring... and forget they exist.

 

1. 80% of the fun of my time starting up in Wurm, was the survival, the research, learning and getting the skills. Your little 25ql mallet that you made and imp'd as hard as you could, meant a lot to you... and hey, I got to my level of skills without buying it.

 

I fully understand the thought process behind, "Hey, I need a 90ql longbow. I know! I'll buy a Bowyer/Fletcher and make them myself!" - They're still being self-sufficient, since they're now able to make what they want when they want to. The only difference is, they're now using money as the fuel, rather than time. This is a common time:money ratio that MMORPG's endure.

 

It's the same feeling I get when I decide to start a new grind, except without the delayed gratification. This is because not everybody finds enjoyment in the actual grind. They're more interested in the result of said grind. This allows them to get back to what they originally wanted to get done in the first place. A new 90ql longbow to shoot stuff with, therefore, allowing them to shoot stuff faster. This is particularly important for Hunters and PvP'ers.

 

2. If you're not in it for the fun, you just want to 'pay and win' basically, you're competitive, in which case there's so much other things you can get better pleasures from. Why waste time, just shelling out cash, logging in, and then be a super skilled toon, who doesn't know anything... ('cool, i have 90 mining, so what can I do with it')

 

There is more to Wurm than just the grind. I may play Wurm predominantly for the abnegation offered by setting my brain on a shelf, and mindlessly grinding for a few hours - but I know for sure, that some of my alliance members hunt 24/7. They are 'always' roaming the countryside looking for stuff to murder. That is 'their' fun. They rely almost entirely on me to keep them fully outfitted to allow them to enjoy their time in Wurm, but if I ever quit or was unavailable for months on end. They'd be up a creek. My guess? They'd buy a weaponsmithing/armor smithing account, or start ponying up for services outside of the alliance to get the same effect.

 

3. I would feel kind of funny knowing that the 60 woodcutter in front of me worked hard, knows every trick of every tree, and where they grow, and my 80 is, bought.

 

Every trick of every tree?...

 

You mean:

 

bind q cut_down

bind e chop_up

 

Not exactly a trade secret. There isn't much else to woodcutting. Hopefully the woodcutting account they bought had 30 forestry, to make finding overaged trees easier for the selective cutters, but some people just clear cut, so who cares if it's mature, old, very old or overaged?

 

Channeling would've been a far better example, there are a lot of hidden secrets that aren't very well known publicly yet.

 

4. Lastly, it's superficial. I am Marlon. I don't want to buy say, Raybarg's toon, and then "be raybarg". My identity is part of what I am here. I want to know that the JimJim that I spoke to last week, is the same guy, and not suddenly a completely different guy. It's like he is now possessed.

 

Some wise sellers make a ton of money abusing that superficiality, so you are 100% not wrong about this aspect.

 

I myself made 68 silver selling a Nahjo Battery entirely because it was named Stannis. Granted, Nahjo Priests are still relatively rare, but the market value should be around 30s - 40s for a battery with no channeling.

 

I received a lot of flabberghasted comments in private regarding the sale. Some accused me of ripping people off, even though it was an auction. Most just couldn't understand the importance of a name.

 

Granted, it is weird talking to people who are using characters that I once owned, but you do get used to it...

 

Honestly, if I were going to make an anti-account sales approach, I'd probably comment more on the power-creep aspect. The fact that more and more people are getting higher and higher skills, with absolutely none of those high skilled accounts disappearing due to account sales. Eventually as accounts continue to survive over the years, you'll eventually see accounts with 100 in skills being traded or sold, and the in game economy facing further devaluation of goods and services.

Edited August 27, 2015 by Dairuka

[Ayes 3,715]

So, lets say the latest "Protunia" purchaser walks up to me with those high skills that the original owner built up. Somehow I should respect this individual's "accomplishment" of purchasing that account? Doesn't make much sense to me to do so, since they did nothing to achieve these skills. Not quite sure why other's think I or anyone should. Even those who repurchase this account that build skills further are already on the easy route fast train, so there is little to admire in their further progress.

 

At least face the fact that you have done nothing and spent no time in game to reach these skill levels. You think someone should admire you for doing nothing other than to fork out some coins to someone else who values them more than the character itself and sells it out? I guess I can understand why those who purchase and sell accounts will try to justify it to make themselves feel better about taking this easy route to "success", for whatever purposes. At least drop the façade and face the fact of what the implications of player account sales and purchases are all about. Doing nothing, easy mode, fast track road to high skill levels.

 

Yea, congratulations on your nice account skills! Well done! Quite the accomplishment! You will be a great example to others who want to buy their way to the top as well. As for me, I'm not the least impressed by your non-efforts. Or am I mistaken in the belief that respect is earned and not bought?

 

=Ayes=

[thirtynine 257]

So, lets say the latest "Protunia" purchaser walks up to me with those high skills that the original owner built up. Somehow I should respect this individual's "accomplishment" of purchasing that account? Doesn't make much sense to me to do so, since they did nothing to achieve these skills. Not quite sure why other's think I or anyone should. Even those who repurchase this account that build skills further are already on the easy route fast train, so there is little to admire in their further progress.

 

At least face the fact that you have done nothing and spent no time in game to reach these skill levels. You think someone should admire you for doing nothing other than to fork out some coins to someone else who values them more than the character itself and sells it out? I guess I can understand why those who purchase and sell accounts will try to justify it to make themselves feel better about taking this easy route to "success", for whatever purposes. At least drop the façade and face the fact of what the implications of player account sales and purchases are all about. Doing nothing, easy mode, fast track road to high skill levels.

 

Yea, congratulations on your nice account skills! Well done! Quite the accomplishment! You will be a great example to others who want to buy their way to the top as well. As for me, I'm not the least impressed by your non-efforts. Or am I mistaken in the belief that respect is earned and not bought?

 

=Ayes=

 

I think you keyed in correctly at the end of your post.  "Respect is earned".  Purchasing an account should have neither positive or negative influence on respect.  You can turn around that sentence on anything you purchase in this game, why stop at accounts.

You just bought a shiny new sword you purchased, that someone else casted on that someone else imped.  Should you be respected for this?

You just bought a fast horse that someone else bred that you purchased shiny supreme shoes for, that someone else imped.  Should they be respected for this?

Maybe someone gave them everything they own, and now they have shiny new everything's? Should they be respected for this?

Why would any items gain someone respect for that matter.  What if they play for 8 years but their accounts have been inactive for all of those?  Auto respect?

What exactly are we giving respect for, pushing a button 1 million times?

Some people can learn in 1 day something that others will never be able to learn or comprehend.  When it comes to ingame characters, you can only "earn my respect" through learned skill,  knowledge, information, common sense, and understanding.  I really don't care how long it took them to get it, or how they learned it unless it was through dishonesty.

Probably I apply this to real life alot also, titles, inheritance, gifts, shiny things people buy, none of that impresses me.  You have to earn it to impress me.

[FranktheTank 1,901]

I have been playing wurm for years, 6 or so to be more exact.

 

I have never sold my main character, but have sold some characters I had acqured through trades.

 

I personally hate it when the people who but the account act like they are that person.

 

You will never be (Blank) regardless of how many times you say your name is.

 

If I bought lets say, Gary. I am not Gary, I will never be Gary and I would never want to be called Gary.

[newman330 72]

As several have already pointed out... Time = Money

This game can be a massive time sink if you want it to be. I want access to everything that makes the game fun for me now... Not after 12 to 18 months of standing in one place and grinding

Tho purchased toons are tools to facilitate my full enjoyment of the game. If I want work, I get that chance 5 or 6 days per week

[demondan 1,865]

Some people work longer hours, earn more and travel longer than you thus don't have time time to grind but still want to enjoy crafting in a survival mmorpg.

[LorraineJ 1,099]

So, this is by no means criticism, or judgement. I just need to know, understand, it'll help me cope.

 

...

 

Your little 25ql mallet that you made and imp'd as hard as you could, meant a lot to you... and hey, I got to my level of skills without buying it.

 

2. If you're not in it for the fun, you just want to 'pay and win' basically, you're competitive, ...

 

4. Lastly, it's superficial.

Edited August 29, 2015 by LorraineJ

[newman330 72]

"Some people work longer hours, earn more and travel longer than you thus don't have time time to grind but still want to enjoy crafting in a survival mmorpg."

That's the beauty of the game.... Everyone plays it the way that gives them the most pleasure and entertainment. How one elects to spend their time accomplishing this is the individuals choice.

Edited August 29, 2015 by newman330

[KanePT 699]

Its easy... It takes literal years of commitment to have a good high level account in this grind fest of a game.

As such people are willing to part with good hard money for the ability to skip that grind, and people who undertook it, would like to have a compensation for time spent.

 

The survival part is nice, but it only requires a new account, after you got past the "froob" level, you're not surviving anymote, unless you're incompetent.

Edited August 29, 2015 by KanePT

[Ayes 3,715]

Character skills are the key to everything in this game, as they enable players to accomplish various things within it. Some person had to raise them to that level by devoting time to them, certainly it is not the person who bought that account expressly for the ability to play at the advanced levels that they provide. Why anyone who purchases these accounts would think that those who actually put in the time to reach these levels would have respect for those who took no time to do so is puzzling to me.

 

Sure, to those you purchase these accounts from you are the greatest, since you are putting money into their pockets. To those who have earned their skills through time and efforts put forth, I suspect you are something else; thus, my point made of not having respect for this process and the individuals who take advantage of it. Apply it to something else out in the real world and it might start to make some sense as a normal reaction when people buy their way into positions rather than earning their way to them.

 

Yes this is "just a game" but people play it and their reactions are based upon real life experiences that have formed their characters. What I find more surprising is that players who have built their skills over years of time have not made comments similar to my own. Possibly they feel it is better to just let it slide in an effort get along and not get a backlash from others. Who knows.

 

Since the game condones this process (purchasing player accounts) for its own benefits, more premium subscriptions and a lure to others for the possibility to make some money from their sales, there is little chance of it changing; but, in the end it cheapens the value of the concept of skills earned through efforts put forth. After all, aren't online games mainly about the process of advancement, which within Wurm is very time consuming. To drastically reduce this process by endorsing account sales seems to me to make a mockery of it, when anyone can just buy their way to the top skills.

 

In the end it won't effect my own enjoyment of the game, so I could have just as well went merrily down my own path not saying a thing about it. Food for thought or refuse for the garbage disposal. Either way, in the end we all make our own choices and are further shaped by the results, just as over time within Wurm the lands slowly yield to the results of shovels dulled through the process of pointed replies, where dirt seems to hold more value.

 

Happy Trails

=Ayes=

[Meldichoir 242]

When a new, or uninformed, player meets a second-hand character they do not see a lazy person who took a shortcut; they see a player who enjoys Wurm enough to stay and live in the world, continuing to develop and shape the land. They see possibilities in themselves and are encouraged by what others have accomplished.

When older and skilled characters are removed from the game by non-sale, the game becomes more empty and lonely. Without senior characters to look up to, or without new construction projects to witness, players who see the game/grind as an unscalable mountain will question whether all their future work will even pay off; that they will have no peers once they become more skilled themselves.

When someone feels that they would only enjoy playing a character that they trained themselves, then they will not purchase one; it is not imposed on them. When a player continues a character passed on by another, it is akin to the purchase of an existing deed: the old efforts and labors of love by the original creator don't have to die and be forgotten.

If an old player decides to quit (while retaining his account) and decides to give his bank of coins over to a new player, must that recipient suffer some sort of disrespect or shame because his new wealth was not the result of his in-game actions?

[LorraineJ 1,099]

After all, aren't online games mainly about the process of advancement, which within Wurm is very time consuming.

 

Speaking for myself - I don't play most online games for advancement. I just play to have fun, and for me fun is decorating and sorting and collecting, and delighting in the little mini-realities and surprises that a programmed computer game can generate. The only games I enjoy competing with online are funny things like Pictionary-type games (like http://www.isketch.net) or guessing games where you tickle your brain to come up with ideas with other people and hopefully laugh about it. If there's something online where I can learn, I'm happy to compete against myself, to better myself. It's also nice to meet good people in the MMOs, and enjoy the artistic creations they come up with in the building-type games.

 

I find some enjoyment at getting better and better at something, but in Wurm that's not really the case - you yourself don't gain any skill, you just invest massive amounts of time. Yes, sometimes you learn some tricks about how to survive better, or how to maximize the massive amounts of time you have to invest, but that is not something that edifies me or amuses me in a sufficient amount to offset the massive amounts of time needed to get a better character skill set. There's no kind of hand-to-eye coordination that improves. I don't really learn something new. It's really a test of patience, and for me I already know I have a FAIL for that - if it's not amusing, I'm irritated.

[Hailene 362]

When older and skilled characters are removed from the game by non-sale, the game becomes more empty and lonely. Without senior characters to look up to, or without new construction projects to witness, players who see the game/grind as an unscalable mountain will question whether all their future work will even pay off; that they will have no peers once they become more skilled themselves.

 

I'd argue the opposite.  If the necessary skills to do everything you want requires not a single person's effort, but the legacy of multiple people, then that's a game I would not want to play.  That's disheartening knowing I won't be able to make my own character to achieve what they're doing since I'll pass away before I make it that far .

 

I'm still of the opinion that keeping all these high skilled characters in circulation is leading the game to become too top heavy.  Makes it harder for newer players to compete. 

 

I think preventing characters with 90+ skills from being recirculated (minus ones like faith and alignment, if you can call alignment a skill) would be a good step in this direction.  Maybe give people 6 month warning that this new change will be put in.

[Meldichoir 242]

I'd argue the opposite.  If the necessary skills to do everything you want requires not a single person's effort, but the legacy of multiple people, then that's a game I would not want to play.  That's disheartening knowing I won't be able to make my own character to achieve what they're doing since I'll pass away before I make it that far .

 

I'm still of the opinion that keeping all these high skilled characters in circulation is leading the game to become too top heavy.  Makes it harder for newer players to compete.

 

When you quoted me, you did not include my first paragraph:

["When a new, or uninformed, player meets a second-hand character they do not see a lazy person who took a shortcut; they see a player who enjoys Wurm enough to stay and live in the world, continuing to develop and shape the land. They see possibilities in themselves and are encouraged by what others have accomplished."]

 

I am suggesting that the presence of highly-skilled characters serves to encourage newer players. When encountering a character, there is no indication whether it has been purchased/traded previously (without further research). New players will see a working society of established peers, not a bunch of amateurs illegitimately puppeting the corpses of dead veterans. The 'legacy of multiple people' is not required to obtain 'the necessary skills to do everything you want'; that was not the message written in my post.

 

If nobody were quit/trade/sell their characters, but continue to play them normally, would you say that the game was becoming too top heavy? I'm not sure what competition you are referring to.

[Hailene 362]

When you quoted me, you did not include my first paragraph:

["When a new, or uninformed, player meets a second-hand character they do not see a lazy person who took a shortcut; they see a player who enjoys Wurm enough to stay and live in the world, continuing to develop and shape the land. They see possibilities in themselves and are encouraged by what others have accomplished."]

 

Even worse then.  They have this expectation of being able to do this...but later realize it takes the effort of multiple people to get there. 

 

What's that saying? The greater the hope the greater the despair?

 

 

If nobody were quit/trade/sell their characters, but continue to play them normally, would you say that the game was becoming too top heavy? I'm not sure what competition you are referring to.

 

Would it become top heavy? I do not know.  I'll be honest and say I don't have data on the active, super-high-skilled characters and how many of them are played and owned by their original owners today.

 

I can make the probably pretty good assumption that without buying/selling, many of these characters would no longer be active.

 

If there was no selling/buying, would the game not be top heavy? I don't know.  Would it be less top heavy than it is now? Almost definitely, I think.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

If you're wondering what I mean it'd be harder for new players to compete, look at the quality of gear really in demand.  At least 80QL (and even then, seldom), mostly 90QL.  For a new player, that's months of grinding if they're dedicated, a year or more if they're more irregular.  That's one hell of a slope to climb.  And even if they do manage to sell their 50 QL gear, it's going to take them an hour to imp for, what, 5 copper?

 

This is speaking as one of those highly skilled characters myself.

[thirtynine 257]

If someone has the money to put down hundreds of dollars for a new character, doesn't that same person also have the money to buy items, rare items/imps/casts and such?  Likely this same person is a net positive to the economy, as they are probably buying lots of stuff.  Imagine if all the people who purchase all these toons were removed, how much money would that remove from the economy?  I dont have any statistics but just normal rule of thumb in business is 80/20 rule where 80% of business comes from 20% of best customers.

 

I know for myself I have 5-7 of the best toons in the game, most of these toons have duplicate skills, I barely have any time to make anything anyways due to RL, so even with all these high end characters I am definitely net consumer.  I am proud of my RL job, and dont have time to play a video game 20hrs a day to try to earn someones respect.  I am the type of customer that pays this games bills, and if there were more people like me, this game would have alot more money to work with.

 

Who really wants to skill their toon for years if they have no value at the end of that time anyways.  One of the things that makes this game awesome is that you can play it, and still get something back of value at the end.  Like an investment, maybe not a good one dollars p/hr, but at least something.