Split moderation teams (CA/CM/GM/Forum Mods) between freedom and chaos

[Naio 675]

On freedom, everyone is essentially "one team" so there should be no restrictions on who moderates disputes or problems.

However, on Chaos, there are lots of things meant to be secret - deed locations, forum posts, information, etc.  When there are members of an opposing kingdom able to respond to an issue with their enemy kingdom, I believe it causes a conflict of interest.

 

I doubt that there has ever been a case of someone being part of one kingdom and attributing any bias towards another, but I believe there is a bit of distrust where you have someone helping you get your horse off a wall on your deed, when 2 hours earlier you were fighting them on a warfront.

 

So, to split and prevent any conflict of interest I'd suggest the following:

 

 

To answer GM/CA/CM calls on chaos, the person answering must be a Freedom player (no kingdom affiliation on Chaos)

 

If there are issues that require chaos-specific knowledge and a Freedom CA/GM cannot help, which would be extremely rare, the issue should be handled by Enki, which I believe happens anyway.

 

To moderate the Chaos forums, the forum mod must be a freedom player (no kingdom affiliation on chaos)

 

 

Can anyone think of any downsides to this?

[SmeJack 5,806]

Would you rather your horse be rescued from a wall as soon as possible by someone already trusted to not use the information against you, or wait several more hours twiddling your thumbs until someone you consider to be neutral arrives? My question is why is Enki as a member of JKC considered any less bias than another GM?

[Redd 4,281]

+1/-1

 

Moderation staff (Forums/Chat) who play on Chaos/Epic should have no input in any of the PvP servers. It causes distress to the players on those servers as that may believe (or may be the case) that there is staff bias. GM's from any background, IMO, are fine as long as it is just tickets ingame which they are taking.

Edited August 3, 2015 by Redd

[Rudie 1,480]

I used to think this way.

 

Now I just suck it up.

 

-1 to OP and +1 to Sme.

[Naio 675]

Would you rather your horse be rescued from a wall as soon as possible by someone already trusted to not use the information against you, or wait several more hours twiddling your thumbs until someone you consider to be neutral arrives? My question is why is Enki as a member of JKC considered any less bias than another GM?

 

Enki IMO is trusted above all.  He's meant to be impartial, and he is impartial.  Also, he's not active on Chaos as far as i'm aware, even if he was, he's the head GM and with that comes responsibility and inherent trust.

 

 

And, i'd rather the GM/CA team be staffed enough to respond to calls within a reasonable timeframe, than have to rely on enemies popping into deed.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But - more importantly, are there any reasons why we shouldn't split the forum moderation?

[MrGARY 12,421]

-1 best ticket support I ever had was from a GM that I eventually learned later was a pvp GM in an enemy kingdom of mine

 

The real question is, why would we need to split support (as a whole/at all) because of imaginary kingdom bias?

[New_Unsleep 423]

Would you rather your horse be rescued from a wall as soon as possible by someone already trusted to not use the information against you, or wait several more hours twiddling your thumbs until someone you consider to be neutral arrives? My question is why is Enki as a member of JKC considered any less bias than another GM?

See the thing is, many people dont trust the staff. You say "already trusted", but if you look at the threads by the staff saying "why are people quitting etc" you'll see a lot of the posts say "Staff corruption". As strange as it may seems, the staffs just not trusted as much as they should be. 

 

+1 from me

Edited August 3, 2015 by New_Unsleep

[Redd 4,281]

-1 best ticket support I ever had was from a GM that I eventually learned later was a pvp GM in an enemy kingdom of mine

 

The real question is, why would we need to split support (as a whole/at all) because of imaginary kingdom bias?

 

Very easy to say something you're apart of isnt bias.

[Egard 3,363]

-1, do not want a freedom GM who has zero knowledge of anything on pvp answering support tickets regarding pvp or mechanics or anything that has to do with pvp.  This post was only made because of all the kingdom versus kingdom bull crap you guys like to do. Enjoy the game for what it is, ignore all this KvK crap, play and stop being paranoid. 

[Hordern 2,177]

Very easy to say something you're apart of isnt bias.

I can't help but giggle - that typo completely reverses what you meant Anyway: It's even easier to say that something you're not part of, and thus don't know the inner workings of, is biased.

 

I don't know about other GM's specifically in so far as the following may be true, but if I had my ticket taken by me, I'd rather I wasn't in my kingdom. If anything I suspect I may be ever so slightly biased against my own kingdom when dealing with things in my efforts to ensure I don't favor my kingdom. I hope every time that I am impartial and my decisions would be the same whoever it was for, and I reckon I do a good job of it. I don't believe that any bias I may have against my own kingdom may be anything other than tiny and not detectable in any way.

As far as forum modding goes - this is already a cross-server affair. Whoever sends a warning or ban notice is not the only person to have commented/dealt with a report. It's been the result of discussions across the board (unless so blatant it requires immediate intervention). Just about every report has comments from PvP and Freedom mods and I know that trying to moderate PvP threads when you don't know what events are actually being referred to, who is who and why someone may have a grudge is next to impossible. I'm more or less at a complete loss when it comes to Epic goings-on because I've not been active there in over two years. Sme and MrGary are frankly indispensible at times just to know who is saying what about whom and why.

 

I'm also AMAZED a PvP player is asking the PvP boards to be modded by Freedom players. Freedom players don't like confrontation, that's why they're on Freedom [for the most part]. Moderation on the PvP boards would only become stricter and I find it hard to believe that that's what you're asking for.

 

I cannot see any of the suggestions made in the OP improving performance of the staff, or staff trust among the player-base.

[SmeJack 5,806]

It is very easy to say, because you can see and know exactly what goes on and know that the claims of bias and corruption are pretty much always born from someone getting in trouble for doing something wrong or unhappy with a decision that wasn't made in their favour.

[Bloodscythe 2,225]

On the surface of the subject, it would  seem in a quick thought quick answer solution,  to make sense.  It is also a view I had held initially when playing the game.  Over time having been on every pvp server and freedom alike and seeing how bugged and more complicated pvp servers can be due to additional seige mechanics not present on pve servers I would rather staff versed in pvp mechanics respond to tickets and concerns.  We naturally have to trust that those chosen to be on staff are done so with the idea they have shown themselves as players to be mature and thoughtful advocates in helping their fellow wurmians.

 

I have seen a phenomena where when decisions are in favor of a player or kingdom, the staff are good and doing their job well.  When decisions are not favorable towards a player or kingdom, the staff must be bias.   Unfavorable outcomes don't equate to bias by default.   

Edited August 3, 2015 by Bloodscythe

[Naio 675]

On the surface of the subject, it would be a seem in a quick thought quick answer solution to make sense.  Is is also a view I had held initially when playing the game.  Over time having been on every pvp server and freedom alike and seeing how bugged and more complicated pvp servers can be due to additional seige mechanics not present on pve servers I would rather staff versed in pvp mechanics respond to tickets and concerns.  We naturally have to trust that those chosen to be on staff are done so with the idea they have shown themselves as players to be mature and thoughtful advocates in helping their fellow wurmians.

 

I have seen a phenomena where when decisions are in favor of a player or kingdom, the staff are good and doing their job well.  When decisions are not favorable towards a player or kingdom, the staff must be bias.   Unfavorable outcomes don't equate to bias by default.   

 

100% agree with this statement.

 

And, having split teams could immediately and forever remove any thoughts or concerns of bias, whether or not it's actually happening.

[Shalbriri 698]

And were you to make it so only freedom staff could admin vs. pvp guys, the next complaint that would follow when someone received a directive they did not like, the accusations that would get flung would be "Well, that freedom staff guy ruled against me, the guy has a buddy, a friend of his brother in laws workmates sister in an enemy kingdom on the server I play on!!!!1111".  It would never end, and people griping would still never even begin to think "hmmm, maybe I was trolling, or perhaps crossed the line".  It's always someone else's fault.  All staff are held to the same high bar regardless of where they play.

 

If you get a ruling you feel is unfair, appeal it directly to Enki.  He is the boss and my faith in his fairness has never been a remote issue.

 

As far as the forums go, I assure you much discussion goes on amongst the team that handles the forums and decisions are made per group discussions versus the idea that staff are just doing a Wild West shoot-out against people they are on the other side of the fence from.  And I also assure you that the vast majority of GM's leave the forums stuff entirely to that respective department.  Such things are nothing to do with me, therefore I don't think I've ever commented on a particular ruling on the forums.  It doesn't concern me in the least and I have faith in the forums staff, and all the staff as a whole.

 

Just my 2 bits, anyways.

[Naio 675]

Well I'm glad that you feel comfortable with forum moderation, and I imagine a lot of other people with access to those discussions might feel comfortable as well, but as someone with no view into it, it feels it might be biased.

 

And viewing this: http://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/4976-wurm-staff/

 

Are there really only 2 FM's?  And those 2 FM's are in the same kingdom?  Why aren't there more staffed FM's?

[LorenaMontana 3,008]

Pls leave all support connected to epic, freedom/chaos I dunno/care.

[MrGARY 12,421]

Well I'm glad that you feel comfortable with forum moderation, and I imagine a lot of other people with access to those discussions might feel comfortable as well, but as someone with no view into it, it feels it might be biased.

 

And viewing this: http://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/4976-wurm-staff/

 

Are there really only 2 FM's?  And those 2 FM's are in the same kingdom?  Why aren't there more staffed FM's?

 

There are 4 more BMs that moderate forums as well shown on that page, one I believe is even in your kingdom if you think it matters

[Cornchips 3,037]

another unable-to-prove only opinions argument thread

[Kswords 461]

Well I'm glad that you feel comfortable with forum moderation, and I imagine a lot of other people with access to those discussions might feel comfortable as well, but as someone with no view into it, it feels it might be biased.

 

And viewing this: http://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/4976-wurm-staff/

 

Are there really only 2 FM's?  And those 2 FM's are in the same kingdom?  Why aren't there more staffed FM's?

 

Even if this suggestion is about splitting moderation teams you would still have those 2 as FMs.

I'm not seeing what the problem is.

 

If you don't like that there is 2 FMs that are in another kingdom then why don't you apply as a Forum Mod?

 

It's a lot better to get your support ticket fixed asap then complain about which GM is doing it.

It also doesn't matter what FMs are in the same kingdom, they do their job like their supposed to and will give warning points to their own kingdom mates if they have to.

Edited August 3, 2015 by Kswords

[Hordern 2,177]

100% agree with this statement.

 

And, having split teams could immediately and forever remove any thoughts or concerns of bias, whether or not it's actually happening.

[watkins141 994]

government is out to get us

[Bloodscythe 2,225]

Well I'm glad that you feel comfortable with forum moderation, and I imagine a lot of other people with access to those discussions might feel comfortable as well, but as someone with no view into it, it feels it might be biased.

 

And viewing this: http://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/4976-wurm-staff/

 

Are there really only 2 FM's?  And those 2 FM's are in the same kingdom?  Why aren't there more staffed FM's?

when I joined the staff team I was not in any kingdom, when promoted to FM from BM and from FM to ALFM I was in Black Legion kingdom if that helps any.  as to the staff, it wasn't long ago we had  3 FM's and 4 BMs, an ALFM and LFM.  Over time people go inactive staff composition changes in a natural cycle.  One of our moderators is in your kingdom.  Because the PVP side of the forum tends to be the most contentious, it is often desired to not have kingdom affiliations because of the very nature of what you are attempting to suggest.

[Postinglels 1,270]

I have tickets dealt with by mr gms more than anyone else and have had no issues. -1 to the op. I don't want a freedomer with no clue listing all the things he can't do like some parrot with a syndrome. I'd rather take my chances with a pvp gm

Edited August 3, 2015 by Postinglels

[Atndy 385]

The subject is one I have tried in the past. Point of the matter is yes gms are not supposed to use information to their advantage but it doesn't mean they don't see what they see. A gm is not going to go in your vault and search through your goodies. They tell you to go to the problem area and they teleport right to you. Fact of the matter is that if you don't want a gm to see what is going on don't ask for help. I'd had to ticket many times when Stevo built his deed and although it was enki whom helped because it was a dev problem and gms couldn't so anything If I wanted help I'd have to deal with who I got.

So basically if you want help don't worry about who comes. If you're to worried about spying don't ask for help.

[Zakerak 442]

-1, do not want a freedom GM who has zero knowledge of anything on pvp answering support tickets regarding pvp or mechanics or anything that has to do with pvp.  This post was only made because of all the kingdom versus kingdom bull crap you guys like to do. Enjoy the game for what it is, ignore all this KvK crap, play and stop being paranoid. 

 

LOL, that 'stop being paranoid' really improved my day ... is not Paranoia main skill on PvP servers?

I spent one month on Chaos and what I learnt there was, there is one more, to me unknown skill to that time - Paranoia. I was unable lo learn that skill fast enough to be able to stay there and I was forced by my common sense to retreat back to PvE lands ...

 

EDIT: whole this topic is only further evidence of existence of this undocumented skill

Edited August 3, 2015 by Zakerak