[PVP ONLY] Armor Balance Overhaul Concept Design WIP

[MisterTeddy 284]

I started this project several months ago and finally got around to finishing it. The balance thread in City Hall was a pretty good motivator.

 

The point is to make different armors different for certain situations and play styles. This is a concept design for a major overhaul, not just a minor tweak (although the patch notes will probably still say "armor was tweaked" if this is actually considered). It also intends to encourage mixed armor sets and better balance higher tier armors so as to avoid straight buffs and linear hierarchies of best to worst.

 

Keep in mind that there are other parts of the game that need to be balanced, and this design affects those parts of the game as well. This is a starting point.

 

Below are the concept design and a spreadsheet of the raw damage reduction values and values adjusted for glance rates under the new system.

 

Concept Design: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1GgyTW0l7e19oK810nPXpkSyUNXschSTFbEIo3KrFBX8/edit

 

Spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1BDzXUa6xWh8eQV1ub4e9SURFQCpb143YMQmv-ul_3Mw/edit#gid=0

 

This is a work in progress. I would really appreciate feedback so this can be updated and hopefully considered by the development team for addition or inspiration for a new system. Please give specific comments; "+1" and "-1" are not feedback and don't help anything.

 

I have not gotten around to a few key aspects of the design, including cloth and leather armors, a look at web armor vs. aura of shared pain, and ideas for the promised scale, ring, and splint armors to fit the new system.

 

If possible, I would appreciate if some players could either post below or message me some test results regarding web armor (duration and magnitude of effect by power) and AoSP (damage reflected by power and damage taken). I have an extremely small sample size currently, and the larger the better for a project like this.

 

Please try to keep this on topic and purely logical. I'd hate to see this turn into the usual mess of KvK and personal attacks that most balance threads devolve into.

[Dalvin 61]

The problem I see with your proposal is this is an established game and people who 'stepped down' would only do it for specific advantages.  Specifically I will respond to some points as follows: its already stupidly easy to kill an opponents mount so why do anything to buff that, instead people should be encouraged to tame mounts with a CR boost for tamed creatures so your mount is not 3 hits and dead from a f2p alt with a high noob ql huge axe.  Anything that would buff archery is bad, some people are really good at it they don't need a buff, the high skill players would drag stuff around for momentary advantage because they can carry a tank on their backs and jog while you are crawling in plate a cooldown isn't viable because most pvp tends to be sieges.  Barding should be changed as well, armoring a horse should be a worthwhile endevour, or just make it really easy and cheap to make and cosmetic.

 

A simple counterproposal and justifications.  Nothing other than a total overhaul will correct the basic system we have so don't try reinventing the wheel.  The problem is as follows- you are meat walking with anything less than plate.  Highly skilled toons just outclass everyone, I have kingdom members who prattle about player ability being 70% of the equation, they lie.  right now its more like 75% toon skills, and if you have sotg its closer to 85% with the remainder being player ability.  Weight is a huge problem in combat, you cant try to compete if you cant even move as a newer player and the focus on changes should be increasing the playability of newer player.  This should be the rallying point for any changes, making pvp POSSIBLE to a NEW PLAYER on a NEW TOON.  Some of you will say pvp is possible on a new toon, I say yes if you already know what your doing, now move along.  I would start cloth at maybe 60% of the effectiveness of plate and scale from there.  Speed when armored would remain unchanged.  What I would change is damage taken by armor.  Increase damage taken by increasing amounts as you go down the armor pyramid.  Maybe a cloth wearer needs to repair their armor after every 2-3 combat encounters or risk it poofing while that plate wearer is sitting at .68 damage to his pieces.  This would allow newer players on new toons the possibility to meaningfully contribute to pvp without trying to reinvent the wheel, they would also have a sporting attempt at running away rather than waddle at 2.8kph when the bloodthirty barbarian elders come to smite them.

[Cornchips 3,037]

It's neat how it changes up everything, again

But as is with everything, people will just carry the weapon that does the most damage against plate on epic, and adjust with drake/scale most likely

 

I.E sickle against drake

 

Everything is a bit different in wurm, because people do this min/max type of pvp mindset things

 

Also this whole class system thing, which I know this thread isn't much about that and more armor types, but it sort of plays in talking about leather/studded/cloth, just isn't going to happen because in wurm combat is unique where you can be this person that can do everything, and I enjoy it and anyone that actively pvps probably enjoys it, and that's something special to wurm I haven't seen in any other game like it.

 

I don't really get much how solid plate has a less glance rate against arrows than leather tho

 

 

To sum it all up, maybe it's just okay to accept in wurm for pvp there's one set variable in this case plate/drake/scale, much like SoTG for mediation wise pvp things, that works well.

Edited August 2, 2015 by Cornchips

[MisterTeddy 284]

I don't really get much how solid plate has a less glance rate against arrows than leather tho

 

Gameplay over realism

 

also "real" studded leather was actually brigandine, which had overlapping steel plates inside, not just the visible external studs; realistically it was better against mauling attacks because it dispersed the force of the blow over a larger area, but again gameplay over realism

[MetalDragon 1,630]

interesting concept.

I don't think the plate debuffs outweigh the benefits of the buffs, 10% lower swing timer is trivial when you get 10% block rate and 20% angle. You can take comparison in the sense that at 100 weapon skill you get a 10% swing timer reduction - those people with 90+ skill have you ever really noticed this?

Was the suggestion to remove res stones in general, or just make dragon armour void of being saved with a res stone? I do like that idea too.

[MisterTeddy 284]

interesting concept.

I don't think the plate debuffs outweigh the benefits of the buffs, 10% lower swing timer is trivial when you get 10% block rate and 20% angle. You can take comparison in the sense that at 100 weapon skill you get a 10% swing timer reduction - those people with 90+ skill have you ever really noticed this?

Was the suggestion to remove res stones in general, or just make dragon armour void of being saved with a res stone? I do like that idea too.

 

 

I can look at the blocking stuff. I just didn't want to make plate useless by debuffing it too much.

 

The suggestion was to just remove res stones in general because they're pay to win. It's kind of dumb how it's currently about buying res stones instead of having a reasonable time to replace gear...

[Kagrenac 812]

It really just seems like a massive buff to chain, and a huge nerf to plate.

 

The block rate really doesn't make up for the swing speed nerf, especially if you are still limited on how often you can block.

 

You really cant tank at all in wurm, all you would be doing by wearing plate with this system is nerfing your offensive ability and being the last person people will target.

 

 

The new meta would be just be moonmetal chain/longsword since pierce would be by far the best damage type to deal.

[MrGARY 12,421]

-1 to removing res stones ever

 

I don't really like armors giving buffs/nerfs to offensive/defensive things, it feels like overcomplicating matters.  I also feel this suggestion is geared towards 'classes' [offensive players with weak defenses, defensive tanks with weak offenses] which I'm not a fan of

 

I would like to see studded/chain have the same damage reduction as they have different glance rates, and using the current information of studded being 50%, chain 55%, and steel plate 70%, I'd like to see studded/chain brought up to 60% reduction.  Don't really know about cloth/leather as it's so basic.

 

Remove archery debuff for plate.  Have chain/studded at 10% buff, leather at 20% buff, and cloth/naked at 30% buff

Remove all casting debuffs which removes this crappy random rng "fail to cast" that is based off seemingly nothing.  Make spell defense depend on the opponent's soul strength, not anything based on yourself outside of the standard channeling mattering to succeed

No thoughts on casting buffs

[demondan 1,865]

Am I the only one that likes the combat as is ???

[Redd 4,281]

na.

 

-1

[Propheteer 7,139]

just revert to pre-ff and call it done

[MisterTeddy 284]

just revert to pre-ff and call it done

 

could you explain (here or make a thread) how pre-ff worked and why the devs decided to remove it? I'm all for a balanced system, this "use the best" method is dumb

 

also to those against a class system, yes that is what this is because the current system of vertical balance (AKA hierarchy) is inherently unbalanced because there is a clear best option; a class system (horizontal) forces players to actually make a choice of what option is best in a given situation, which is why it is balanced

 

compare this to weapons - even though players carry multiple weapons, each one is useful in a given situation and terrible in others, which is what makes weapons the best (only) balanced part of Wurm PvP (ie. shortswords do next to no damage but have a ridiculous parry rate, making them good for pure defensive but absolutely terrible for any offensive capabilities)

 

the armor suggestion is supposed to balance armor in a similar way to weapons - situational usefulness, not universal usefulness

[demondan 1,865]

But i like the way it is

[Kagrenac 812]

also to those against a class system, yes that is what this is because the current system of vertical balance (AKA hierarchy) is inherently unbalanced because there is a clear best option; a class system (horizontal) forces players to actually make a choice of what option is best in a given situation, which is why it is balanced

But anything involving a class system is one where there is always just one best option in wurm.

 

Tanking is impossible, so a tank class is pointless. The only way it would be useful is if you could swap if you were being focused, and even then the weight of the extra armor would probably offset the bonuses.

 

Archery is worthless against people, so any archer class is pointless.

[demondan 1,865]

and also i dont play wurm to play checkers. I dont want everything balanced.I dont play an rpg to be balanced. i play it to be beast and to be beasted.

Edited August 9, 2015 by demondan

[MisterTeddy 284]

and also i dont play wurm to play checkers. I dont want everything balanced.I dont play an rpg to be balanced. i play it to be beast and to be beasted.

 

could you please stop making useless posts like this? the entire point of this is balance, if you are going to literally say that balance doesn't matter, 1. don't post and 2. don't be surprised when people quote you in any other balance thread

 

@Kag I get what you're saying, and honestly this alone won't do much because it requires other changes - the problem is that Wurm PvP needs a complete overhaul and no matter what anyone suggests, it's going to mix new ideas with old ones that are still unbalanced until the majority of the system is brought in line

 

If nothing else, I'd rather the devs get out of this that there are other balancing factors than damage, damage reduction and CR

Edited August 9, 2015 by MisterTeddy

[MrGARY 12,421]

If someone doesn't post that they are against these changes then devs get the idea that everyone supports whatever changes people aren't posting against, which is clearly not the case.  Someone posting that they do not want something is relevant

[MisterTeddy 284]

If someone doesn't post that they are against these changes then devs get the idea that everyone supports whatever changes people aren't posting against, which is clearly not the case.  Someone posting that they do not want something is relevant

[Cornchips 3,037]

The point is armor 'balance' isn't a really solid concept for wurm, and many people that play on chaos/epic probably 100% agree with that, because they see it kind of 'off' to wear studded leather in any situation, or anything except the 3 plate/drake/scale, and no matter what kind of changes are made plate and the above will always be set in stone the best, and everyone will use them.

 

Like I said above Wurm is sort of weird where there's a few instances where there's one set 'good' thing for each situation.

[Mausmane 2]

I started this project several months ago and finally got around to finishing it. The balance thread in City Hall was a pretty good motivator.

 

The point is to make different armors different for certain situations and play styles. This is a concept design for a major overhaul, not just a minor tweak (although the patch notes will probably still say "armor was tweaked" if this is actually considered). It also intends to encourage mixed armor sets and better balance higher tier armors so as to avoid straight buffs and linear hierarchies of best to worst.

 

Keep in mind that there are other parts of the game that need to be balanced, and this design affects those parts of the game as well. This is a starting point.

 

Below are the concept design and a spreadsheet of the raw damage reduction values and values adjusted for glance rates under the new system.

 

Concept Design: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1GgyTW0l7e19oK810nPXpkSyUNXschSTFbEIo3KrFBX8/edit

 

Spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1BDzXUa6xWh8eQV1ub4e9SURFQCpb143YMQmv-ul_3Mw/edit#gid=0

 

This is a work in progress. I would really appreciate feedback so this can be updated and hopefully considered by the development team for addition or inspiration for a new system. Please give specific comments; "+1" and "-1" are not feedback and don't help anything.

 

I have not gotten around to a few key aspects of the design, including cloth and leather armors, a look at web armor vs. aura of shared pain, and ideas for the promised scale, ring, and splint armors to fit the new system.

 

If possible, I would appreciate if some players could either post below or message me some test results regarding web armor (duration and magnitude of effect by power) and AoSP (damage reflected by power and damage taken). I have an extremely small sample size currently, and the larger the better for a project like this.

 

Please try to keep this on topic and purely logical. I'd hate to see this turn into the usual mess of KvK and personal attacks that most balance threads devolve into.

Bump!

In regards to armor balancing. Purely. 

Edited September 24, 2015 by Mausmane

[MisterTeddy 284]

I'd like to highlight and reiterate: more than anything, the biggest point I'm trying to make is for the developers to balance the game using a number of less influential variables instead of the three most influential (damage, damage reduction, and combat rating). I am not expecting them to copy-paste this, just take something useful out of it.

[demondan 1,865]

There is NO balance in RPGs.

Leave wurm and play Starcraft if you want "balance"

[Zekezor 3,188]

There is NO balance in RPGs.

This statement made me chuckle.

[Postinglels 1,270]

I can imagine dimonduns list of rpgs

Wurmonline

Wurmunlimited

Dwarffortress

Mlp online

[Mausmane 2]

Balance the armor cry and wail bump.

Studded and chain have a place in pvp too!