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Postinglels

Get a Dev to sit on the sidelines during a raid to see how dumb and boring it is, and from this perhaps find ways of making it less bad

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-1 to karma teleports. meditation teleports are ok, but karma ones are a nono


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-1 to karma teleports. meditation teleports are ok, but karma ones are a nono

They are the same effectively so no, like by half these counter arguments you'd swear I was asking to teleport to an enemy deed token, #zarni

Edited by Postinglels

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You completely fail to see the challenge of Wurm which explains why you beg and whine for the rules to be changed all the time.  Wurm is a grind, you grind skills to get better and you use those skills to be better in PvP.  Unless you have 100 in all stats your account is not finished with the tedium aka challenge that Wurm offers. 

 

The chess/checkers analogy has nothing to do with ancient deep strategy, it merely illustrates you like the idea of being a good Wurm player but the rules of Wurm currently are too inconvenient for you.  In order to compensate you ask the developers to dumb down the game to the point where you think can compete with the least possible effort.

Edited by Propheteer
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Edited by Banzai
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raiding deeds is boring but building them takes 10times longer so raiding is easy tbh with ppl who know how to aim.


E.G zurus took 1mill dirt to build and 6 weeks of none stop work but got raided in less than 7 hours of work and knarrs full of dirt ^^. If you hate raiding your doing it wrong.


The only thing that sucks about raiding iif its a alts deed, they just drop gold in to it not caring if it gets drained over and over.


Edited by hammertimes
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If you hate raiding your doing it wrong.

Or maybe they have played more games than just wurm and thus wurm isnt their only experience? :P

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Hey I have an idea, fix catapulting already. It's absolutely retarded how buggy catapulting is. There are ###### mechanics that make no sense and just hinder progress. For instance, if you have an altar on the tile directly North or West of the tile your catapult is on, it won't let you shoot, saying "the area is too crowded." What's the point in this when you can shoot if the altar is on South or East side? Seriously, fix catapulting and I guarantee it will be a bit more enjoyable, maybe even a bit easier without making it 'too easy.'

 

Apart from the "to crowded" bug, catapulting works fine, I can give u lessons for 5s ph? And all raid mechanics are fine, raiding is not supposed to be easy.

 

I don't know how ppl can defend the teleporting, it only helps small far away territory holding deeds.

If it where removed, supporting your alliances off timezone players' deeds can still be done if it is not to remote and with good safe access built in.

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oh got some figures for you all, to show the difrance between epic and wild/choas, most deed have 20 gaurds size 50+.


 


 


 


.choas pvp by war deeds only dropping gold after gold rold likes this. avg pop is 56,deeds 111,and 3x the gold on wild than epic.


 


 


 


 


.epic pvps from main capitals only with very few war deeds most deeds have 5 gaurds. avg pop is 62,deeds 77,


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Apart from the "to crowded" bug, catapulting works fine, I can give u lessons for 5s ph? And all raid mechanics are fine, raiding is not supposed to be easy.

I don't know how ppl can defend the teleporting, it only helps small far away territory holding deeds.

If it where removed, supporting your alliances off timezone players' deeds can still be done if it is not to remote and with good safe access built in.

2 days ago when I was catapulting a shitty MR deed I encountered a problem where a catapult only hits the North and South walls of a tile, not the East and West walls of the tile. Catapulting works fine? Nahh it's buggy as ######. Trebucheting has bugs too, believe me. Afaik trebuchets are supposed to fire the amount of tiles you have winched (ie: 12 ore in the trebuchet, fires 12 tiles), but trebuchets sometimes bug out and cannot hit certain tiles. You add a winch and it fires 2 tiles forward, instead of one, remove 1 winch and it fires one tile too short. This means there's one tile on the longhouse YOU CANNOT HIT! Working as intended? No. I could go on and on about the bugs with catapulting, but I won't waste my time; it needs looking at, period. Edited by CIRAY
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Huh.  A thread about getting Devs in to observe pvp/raiding etc as it's actually played. Sounds reasonable.


 


Oh, right, just another KvK pile of bollocks.


Edited by aamanus

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Our deeds were constructed legally and enemy kingdoms had every opportunity to prevent our deeds from being constructed as they were being built, they chose not to. 


 


 


Just to clarify, using legal game mechanics and following the rules to play Wurm does not constitute abuse.  Playing within the rules to win does not constitute abuse.  


 


Abuse is:


 


1.  finding a bug, say leaving meditation paths to reset your meditation timer several times a day to accelerate your meditation skill. 


 


2.  spreading your knowledge of said bug to several of your peers


 


3.  then reporting the bug once your pals have had sufficient time to benefit from it


 


That is the epitome of abuse, don't get it twisted.


Edited by madnezz
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Our deeds were constructed legally and enemy kingdoms had every opportunity to prevent our deeds from being constructed as they were being built, they chose not to. 

 

 

Just to clarify, using legal game mechanics and following the rules to play Wurm does not constitute abuse.  Playing to win does not constitute abuse.  

 

Abuse is:

 

1.  finding a bug, say leaving meditation paths to reset your meditation timer several times a day to accelerate your meditation skill. 

 

2.  spreading your knowledge of said bug to several of your peers

 

3.  then reporting the bug once your pals have had sufficient time to benefit from it

 

That is abuse, don't get it twisted.

Edited by Propheteer
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Our deeds were constructed legally and enemy kingdoms had every opportunity to prevent our deeds from being constructed as they were being built, they chose not to. 

 

 

Just to clarify, using legal game mechanics and following the rules to play Wurm does not constitute abuse.  Playing within the rules to win does not constitute abuse.  

 

Abuse is:

 

1.  finding a bug, say leaving meditation paths to reset your meditation timer several times a day to accelerate your meditation skill. 

 

2.  spreading your knowledge of said bug to several of your peers

 

3.  then reporting the bug once your pals have had sufficient time to benefit from it

 

That is the epitome of abuse, don't get it twisted.

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2 days ago when I was catapulting a shitty MR deed I encountered a problem where a catapult only hits the North and South walls of a tile, not the East and West walls of the tile. Catapulting works fine? Nahh it's buggy as ######. Trebucheting has bugs too, believe me. Afaik trebuchets are supposed to fire the amount of tiles you have winched (ie: 12 ore in the trebuchet, fires 12 tiles), but trebuchets sometimes bug out and cannot hit certain tiles. You add a winch and it fires 2 tiles forward, instead of one, remove 1 winch and it fires one tile too short. This means there's one tile on the longhouse YOU CANNOT HIT! Working as intended? No. I could go on and on about the bugs with catapulting, but I won't waste my time; it needs looking at, period.

 

Slopes will do this. Change the height of the cata, with dirt if need be. Do you really expect it to be easy to cata up and down hills?

Edited by Omar
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I fail to understand the challenge of Wurm which is why i complain about getting rules changed so often... i see, it really opens my eyes about the past.

 

Did MR fail to understand when they asked for champ lives back?

Did MR fail to understand when they asked for a deed to be removed so they could found their old capitol?

Did MR fail to understand when they asked for nerfs to fo priests?

Did MR fail to understand when they asked for buffs to the artifacts?

Did MR fail to understand when they asked for the whitelight to be moved?

Did MR fail to understand when they asked for the whitelight to be bashable?

Did MR fail to understand when they asked for scale back due to their inability to not walk into open dropshafts?

Did MR fail to understand when they asked for assistance with a reinforced mine tile?

 

I mean I could go on here, because I have yet to think that any of my suggestions "dumb down the game" as much as they reduce tedium and make quality of life improvements. The goal was never to make it easier, the goal has always been to make it more entertaining and in some cases more skillbased, either by character skills, or by player skills. I would enjoy the game more if it wasn't predictable to the point where i could line 8 players up on either side and tell you exactly who would win in that fight, or what weapons would always win in a 1v for instance.

 

There is little to no strategy in Wurm, and what exists is cheap and underhanded. Here is "strategy" (LOL) in Wurm for basic PvP as a small example just to really show you all the options, anything else is a minor derivative based on terrain or deeds, but its basically the same ###### every single time.

 

1. Hey lets stealth and wait

2. Hey lets come in behind them after they are dehorsed

3. Hey lets come in behind them after they engage

4. Hey lets stealth and wall in their mine/gatehop once they leave

5. Hey lets engage them on the coast so we can use boats as a hop

6. Hey lets gatehop them

7. Lets shoot out all their horses before we engage

8. Lets bait them out with a weak account or an alt before we engage them.

9. Hey lets use this terrain so that we can shoot their horses but they cant shoot ours

 

Honestly, thats about everything related to basic land/coastal PvP. When it comes to boats, there are a few more options, but they are also just as predictable and as limited.

 

There is no real strategy in Wurm, there are a very few select set of options, the same options that have existed in the game since its release with the exception of a few more added with things like boats and stealth. Pretending otherwise demonstrates your lack of knowledge and experience when it comes to PvP in this game and maybe when you clock a few more hours, you might come to understand that there is always more to difficulty and challenge than just tedium. (I'm also quite sure your history with death tabs and skirmishes would further demonstrate that you are incapable of providing reasonable suggestions to the PvP aspect of the game seeing as how you barely PvP and seem to just enjoy the deedbuilding aspect of the game, which is okay, but yet, it doesn't really equate to PvP outside of the long time issue of effort vs risk)

 

 

 

That individual has played for a decent period of time, enough to understand that teleporting into a deed doesn't really encourage PvP because gatehopping isn't really PvP. (For those that don't know this, the only time you get kills in a gatehop situation is when someone gets critted multiple times and dies instantly, or they do something really dumb like run out 30 tiles or fall into a pit.)

 

What teleporting does encourage however is very very easy land expansion that is very very difficult to take back. Why is it difficult to take back you might add? (and for this, i think its best explained by explaining the actual process of which these mechanics are abused, so we will do that.)

 

1. Find a hole in an enemy kingdoms influence where a tower is not protected by a deed, or optionally, insert an alt into an enemy kingdom. (Optional tactic is actually how a certain kingdom got several % of land.)

2. Cap said tower and drop a deed, or optionally, use the alt to drop a deed and then convert the deed which in turn converts the tower.

3. Build your standard wardeed design

 

With step 3, it's worth nothing that the standard wardeed design looks a lot like this with minor variations. This is the modern day standard simply because it is one of the most material efficient and effective designs. A single person can throw one of these up within two weeks (having done it myself). A kingdom, obviously, much much faster, can be done within three days. The design itself uses the slope system and usually the 5+ stories on every building in order to make it impossible to catapult any interior buildings without removing the dirtwall on a side, and if you do manage to actually catapult due to exterior slopes, you have to knock down every floor of that particular tile before actually getting to what matters, usually while its being repaired. Due to the interior slopes, it's also near impossible to stop repairers without getting trapped unless its on the dirtwall level.

f6de879ac7.jpg

 

With this, it's worth noting that in order to get in, you have to do these things:

 

1. Bash high QL exterior minedoors which takes hours even with a lot of people.

2. Bash high ql lamps and statues inside these minedoors in order to collapse them, which takes hours.

3. Make a ramp with dirt you brought yourself

Optionally, catapult down an entire longhouse and use the dirtwalls dirt for a ramp (takes hours)

4. Here's where it branches. If you catapulted in the side of the interior ramp, you can usually diagonally catapult through the deed. Due to the sizes of these deeds, this is usually near impossible and has a lot of clunky functionality. This can take hours.

 

Alternatively, you can go back, and remove the entire longhouse in order to catapult, or you can raise a pillar in order to catapult (which is still clunky and its often a lot easier to just remove the entire longhouse.)

 

5. Drain the token,

6. Climb out and go home.

 

It's also worth nothing that most of the damage you cause can be repaired overnight easily, and you have to repeat this more than five times continously in order to get rid of it before you can get your land back. Now imagine how hard it is to get rid of this deed with 20 defenders that portal in with materials? Yeah, i thought so.

 

4. Set up a twitter alert system that lets you and your kingdom members know when its being attacked.

5. Capture all available towers in the vicinity or optionally, bash them and build your own in places where they are much easier for you to defend.

6. Sit back and relax, any time the deed is in actual danger, you just portal in with 20 people and supplies to gatehop until they get bored (because gatehopping isn't PvP, and to die while doing it you have to be a complete moron.) and fix all damage done overnight.

 

 

With all of this being said, it's worth nothing that this is usually done in an enemy kingdoms homeland where there is a gap in the influence, so not much is fortified.

 

 

So, if you remove the ability to teleport into deeds. You would discourage the cheap and underhanded alt-abuse ######, as well as the capping a random tower nowhere near your land "tactic" (LOL) as well. It would however encourage people to ride to the deed to defend it, which would encourage ACTUAL, MEANINGFUL PvP as opposed to a gatehop where the defender can't actually lose. (because if you somehow lose your gatehop you just end up logging off anyway.) as well as encouraging frontline pushes and making land gained more interesting. I also do believe this was the intention the first time teleportation was removed due to its rampant abuse.

 

 

Seeing as how you seemed to skip all of this relevant information madnezz when it comes to karma teleporting and how it was used, once again furthers my idea that you either have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, or you are going out of your way to cover up sometimes biased, but usually reasonable suggestions with counterposts, if you will, that don't really have any logic to them in an attempt to encourage and keep an underhanded method of gameplay that a certain group uses around. Either way, i'm certain once you aren't on the winning team, you will change your tune real quick. Or maybe just when the winning team needs developer assistance, who knows? Hell, you might even be a throwback to the Protunia days, where every suggestion is bad but yours?

 

I'm not sure why this method of play is kept in the game, and I would assume its rampant abuse on Chaos is one of the reasons it has such a low active average playerbase as its something those individuals have to put up with every single day of playing. Yeah sure, you can look big when the noobs come over to raid a deed, but who doesn't want to raid a deed that hasn't been maintained in a year or updated to modern standards that's guaranteed to have a big payout for little to no effort?

 

 On Epic, fortunately, the abuse of this mechanic has not ever run rampant, and most likely will not, which could also be a direct correlation to why Epic has 2x, almost 3x the active playerbase. Actually, i highly doubt it could be, because I seem to remember a HUGE portion of the Chaos playerbase leaving because they did not find this way of playing fun, and those that stayed seemed to only stay because of the accounts they had spent years grinding up. I also seem to remember that a certain group of people completely changed their opinion on how fun this style of play was once they were no longer being curbstomped once everyone quit the server for about a year and they were finally able to get more than 8% land.

 

 

Edit: With the more people that read this, its' worth clarifying that the problems that i complain about is primarily related to the so called "wardeeds" as opposed to deeds that people actually live in.

 

It's easier to raid a deed for loot rather than raid a deed to get rid of it.

 

this yes

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I like how the largest complaint in this thread is about how putting enemies in the same location discourages pvp.


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I like how the largest complaint in this thread is about how putting enemies in the same location discourages pvp.

 

I like how anyone thinks that gatehopping is even remotely balanced or encourages proper meaningful PvP, and having that opinion really demonstrates inexperience seeing as how most of the people that do have that opinion haven't experienced anything else. The reason i say this is because of the fact that when you teleport into a deed, you usually just defend the deed. Maybe once out of twenty times you do something other than that.

 

 

"gee golly pvp sure is fun when its impossible to die haha XD"

Edited by Propheteer

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I like how anyone thinks that gatehopping is even remotely balanced or encourages proper meaningful PvP, and having that opinion really demonstrates inexperience seeing as how most of the people that do have that opinion haven't experienced anything else. The reason i say this is because of the fact that when you teleport into a deed, you usually just defend the deed. Maybe once out of twenty times you do something other than that.

 

 

"gee golly pvp sure is fun when its impossible to die haha XD"

 

On the contrary, I've experienced PvP in many different situations. Open field, trap setting, falling into traps, attacking deeds, defending deeds.  I'm sure most of the pvpers who have been around for a few years actively pursuing pvp have.  However, your complaint was not about gatehopping, which I'd agree could use some looking at.  It was about people teleporting to defend.  Sure, it's not ideal for the attackers, but having attackers turn up when defenders don't have 3 hours to ride across the map isn't ideal either.  

 

But if people aren't in the same local, there is NO chance of pvp happening.  Personally, I rarely leave deed for anything less than potential pvp.  

 

In my view, while teleporting isn't ideal it at least has a major upside.  Whereas things like crashing during pvp because there's more than 20 people in local, or getting hunted status because of some complete BS, or getting stuck in a wall that is invisible, or having enemy players invisible and not even showing in local for you etc are actual issues with pvp that should be addressed.  And I'll agree, catapulting is complete crap right now.  Infact, most of what has been said in this thread is accurate.  I personally just do not agree that the biggest issue is the one thing that at least brings people together to fight - because catapulting a deed with no defenders is PvE.

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On the contrary, I've experienced PvP in many different situations. Open field, trap setting, falling into traps, attacking deeds, defending deeds.  I'm sure most of the pvpers who have been around for a few years actively pursuing pvp have.  However, your complaint was not about gatehopping, which I'd agree could use some looking at.  It was about people teleporting to defend.  Sure, it's not ideal for the attackers, but having attackers turn up when defenders don't have 3 hours to ride across the map isn't ideal either.  

 

But if people aren't in the same local, there is NO chance of pvp happening.  Personally, I rarely leave deed for anything less than potential pvp.  

 

In my view, while teleporting isn't ideal it at least has a major upside.  Whereas things like crashing during pvp because there's more than 20 people in local, or getting hunted status because of some complete BS, or getting stuck in a wall that is invisible, or having enemy players invisible and not even showing in local for you etc are actual issues with pvp that should be addressed.  And I'll agree, catapulting is complete crap right now.  Infact, most of what has been said in this thread is accurate.  I personally just do not agree that the biggest issue is the one thing that at least brings people together to fight - because catapulting a deed with no defenders is PvE.

In the six month span i was on Chaos recently, not once did I EVER see anyone from MR or JK teleport into a deed for anything other than defending it outside of the one person burning off spare karma because it was late and they couldn't be bothered to walk back. (This is excluding the meditation teleport home as i see that abused by everyone, even on Epic to get around. However, I could also understand teleporting to a nearby deed to reinforce people, but I honestly only see this happen once in a blue moon usually by one person too.) Not to mention, nearly every single video, maybe four out of five, takes place defending or attacking a deed, where one side abuses a teleport feature to defend a deed via gatehopping. The peculiar thing is, most of the other videos that don't include deed defense usually mention something about the trip to the place, or include portions of riding or sailing. I'm certain there are outliers to this, and I can't be bothered to go through and dig up every possible video unless there was a possibility that the developers take notice to the commonly abused ###### mechanics in the game, but my point still stands.

 

I'd also like to mention that in many cases it would serve as balance to the game. People shouldn't own land they don't have the people to maintain, I do believe that was a goal of balancing this mechanic in the past, and with that being said, it also encouraged people roaming in no mans land, which generated more meaningful PvP than Chaos has seen with the addition of the karma teleport feature. Another plus would be it completely gets rid of the commonly abused deed conversion in the middle of enemy lands, or cap a tower and drop a deed nowhere near the front line and waiting it out until your land reaches said deed.

 

 

 

 

 

As for getting in local, you're telling me that you wouldn't ever defend deeds if you couldn't teleport in? If this is the case (and it would appear that way from how you worded it), then wouldn't that also imply that you shouldn't have the deeds if you are only willing to put in the effort to defend and create them simply because you can teleport to them.

 

If you wouldn't ever be in their local otherwise that would imply you never actively seek to defend deeds by methods that do not include teleportation and that you do not actively roam and seek out PvP.

 

 

It's simply depressing to look at the PvP the game offers currently, and the history leading up to it. PvP sure seemed a lot more lively back in the days before defenders got buff after buff after buff after buff, intentional or otherwise. Without people having more reward for their risk, people don't have an incentive to go out and actively seek PvP. If more people did that, it would surely mean more tabs, which would surely mean more gear drops, which would in turn help lessen the snowball effect of the game. Making the snowball effect not as strong would encourage smaller kingdoms to do more, as well as encouraging smaller groups and newer groups to participate more.

 

Maybe once people realize that it's not about providing incentive for the winning team, but incentivizing and encouraging the little guys to go out would in turn incentivize the winning team by making the game more challenging and fun (and not just for the winning team either, it would make it more challenging and fun for everyone.).

Edited by Propheteer
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So all those times I solo defended doinstuff until people would teleport in, was some of the best pvp I've ever had. 1v4 is no probl, back off heal up,SO FUN, until the numbers of those teleporting in would significantly outnumber or outskill the attackers forcing them to back off. Gosh I'm glad I've been put straight. Pls

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I'm not arguing that the defence game is too strong.  In the last two years I've been playing I've seen buff after buff after buff applied to defence.  And at the moment, defence is far too easy if you have a few people around and can easily hold against a force 4x the size.  But that's not a problem with defenders being there. That's a problem with the mechanics that make it so easy to rebuild and repair and so hard to tear down - but at the same time, there has to be a balance between making it feasible to raid and feasible to defend.  If attacks can turn up and simply destroy a deed in an hour when it took 3 days to build, there's something wrong there too.

And no, I've lead charges in to the defence of a deed, arriving on horseback the old fashioned way and ultimately that is my preference.  I'm not arguing that there is a problem with teleporting - I'm actually agreeing with you if you care to read.  What I'm saying is that it is one of the lesser issues of raiding. 

 

The main issue is that you can turn up with 40 attackers, and 10 defenders can sit there and defend without breaking a sweat, and still have people spare to start counter-catapulting.  Not to mention the fact that a number of bugs are more likely to lead to a death for either side than any actual good plays - as you've said, gate hopping is easy mode compared to fighting it out in the open.

 

Honestly, I just don't think that you get that I'm agreeing with you on what is a problem, just not on the order of importance.

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All I know is every single major raid I've been on with 30+ raiders that should have flattened a small capital was derailed not by active defenders, but by 'X floor / wall / parapet / fence / trapped templar (can't dig)' etc not being able to be destroyed by some glitched mechanic.


 


So I don't have any issue with "hard", I have issues with "broken" that doesn't get fixed within reasonable timeframes.


 


As someone that would be organizing raids all the time it's these broken mechanics/glitches that make you say "what's the point? I'll wait 'till it gets fixed"  But it takes too long, and then they introduce a new feature that brings it's own set of new raid-breaking glitches.


 


 


Considering this, Sparta was a small miracle to be able to be removed without any mechanics issues.


Edited by GoG
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It's not dumb and boring. No one cares about the actual fight, we are just anxious and very excited for the loot.


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