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Get a Dev to sit on the sidelines during a raid to see how dumb and boring it is, and from this perhaps find ways of making it less bad

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Hey I have an idea, fix catapulting already. It's absolutely retarded how buggy catapulting is. There are mechanics that make no sense and just hinder progress. For instance, if you have an altar on the tile directly North or West of the tile your catapult is on, it won't let you shoot, saying "the area is too crowded." What's the point in this when you can shoot if the altar is on South or East side? Seriously, fix catapulting and I guarantee it will be a bit more enjoyable, maybe even a bit easier without making it 'too easy.'

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I"d -1 making it easier, it should be hard, bloody, tedious, risky.  


 


What I DO +1, is having the pvp raid mechanics be observed in action, for I"m quite convinced if the Devs could see how bugged seige mechanics are, IE catapulting, bugged building plans, other pvp related bugs not intended involving bugged gate hop toggling, mine doors not working as described consistently, and a slew of other activities that should not be possible in pvp but do happen and thwart pvp efforts in a legitimate way, I know there would be an understanding of the scope of bugs and an imperative to want to fix them.  without doubt a universal conclusion would be there is much that needs attention and not working correctly in pvp mechanics to deed raiding.  This affects all kingdoms, attacker and defender alike so no partiality or knock to any one kingdom.


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One thing that truly makes me laugh my ass off is "muh siegess themss"

I don't think that historical sieges had to deal with people teleporting in with pockets full of mortar.

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Hi,


 


I've been to a few raids but not recently. I remember how tedious and complex loading and firing catapults was but at the same time I have also been on the other end.


There is some balance in that complexity I guess. So if we make it easier to shoot / aim we have to make it so each shot is weaker I guess.  It would be really helpful with a list of improvements that would improve gameplay and fun-factor while not tipping the balancing scale signficantly.


 


/Andreas


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Hi,

 

I've been to a few raids but not recently. I remember how tedious and complex loading and firing catapults was but at the same time I have also been on the other end.

There is some balance in that complexity I guess. So if we make it easier to shoot / aim we have to make it so each shot is weaker I guess.  It would be really helpful with a list of improvements that would improve gameplay and fun-factor while not tipping the balancing scale signficantly.

 

/Andreas

Keybinds Zcul, keybinds.

The actions already have timers. Just save our wrists.

 

EDIT: At least for war machines... and maybe Thievery :ph34r:

Edited by Klaa

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I made a joke earlier but I do agree devs need to watch the live action, see how it works in realtime and how things could be changed. Such as how dirt walls work and possible ways to keep players from climbing them and just walking in rather filter the enemy in a place you can deal with them if they want in.

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I made a joke earlier but I do agree devs need to watch the live action, see how it works in realtime and how things could be changed. Such as how dirt walls work and possible ways to keep players from climbing them and just walking in rather filter the enemy in a place you can deal with them if they want in.

 

Dirt walls was certainly not something that was designed from the start as a pvp fortification, it sort-of just happened and became the defacto standard as people evolved the way they fortify their deeds. It's also the point with a sandbox, to use the features to your advantage (within rules and regulatory requirements of course).

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Hell even the ways of flat-raising dirt are arguably exploits.

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Dirt walls was certainly not something that was designed from the start as a pvp fortification, it sort-of just happened and became the defacto standard as people evolved the way they fortify their deeds. It's also the point with a sandbox, to use the features to your advantage (within rules and regulatory requirements of course).

Was minedoors actually intended to be the ultimate fortification choice like its currently like?

 

in other words: 9000+ strength steel minedoors that take 2dmg per hit.

4500 bash actions to get in, 0 thought/tactics involved.

how long does a bash action take? 30 seconds.

135000 seconds of the raiders life wasted hitting a minedoor to get in.

Thats 37 and a half HOURS.

 

I can destroy all the longhouses and level the dirtwalls in less... For a single door. (and pray that they dont just slap on a new one)

 

Some deeds got tons of them. Having at the very least one "safemine" (steel minedoor with reinforcement beams below) is standard of all deeds nowdays becouse they are so hideously hard to get into.

 

Desintegrating reinforcement beams cost a ton of favor and time aswell. While it's a costly method it decreases the time needed.

 

But overall Zcul... Minedoors, What exactly were you devs thinking when buffing them to this extent?

Edited by Zekezor
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in other words: 9000+ strength steel minedoors that take 2dmg per hit.

4500 bash actions to get in, 0 thought/tactics involved.

how long does a bash action take? 30 seconds.

135000 seconds of the raiders life wasted hitting a minedoor to get in.

Thats 37 and a half HOURS.

 

That's kinda twisting data... nobody is bashing alone.  Using your numbers, 20 people bashing would take less than 2 hours

 

Mine doors are fine for what they do, offer some sense of reasonable security when everything else is so easy to destroy and some reasonable security to keep all items you own safe.  Obviously if someone wants to get in they will, but making it easy to break in and get access to everything everyone owns is not a good step.  Yes this is a pvp server and we're meant to lose our stuff, I'm fine with that and I've had to happen to me enough to know that it's extremely harsh and can have negative affects in maintaining players

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That's kinda twisting data... nobody is bashing alone.  Using your numbers, 20 people bashing would take less than 2 hours

And now you consider how much siege damage is done normally by 20 people that arent interrupted catapulting... >_>

and 2h is "nothing"? its 2 bloody hours. FOR TWENTY PEOPLE. Do you realise how much equipment can be made in that time?

 

People already log out with all their valuables, whats in the safe mine is the things they didnt have enough alts for.

Edited by Zekezor

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And now you consider how much siege damage is done normally by 20 people that arent interrupted catapulting... >_>

and 2h is "nothing"? its 2 bloody hours. FOR TWENTY PEOPLE. Do you realise how much equipment can be made in that time?

 

People already log out with all their valuables, whats in the safe mine is the things they didnt have enough alts for.

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if you think 2h is very long time for something during the raid then you are mistaken. Raids imo should be hard, tedious and exhausting. People sink alot of money and work under deeds and they should not be easily destroyed. And before someone brings back lamps - idc about the lamps, make them stealable or what ever.

Long, tedious and exhausting. Wow its no wonder you and your buddies list bricks as confirmed kills.

The whole thing really needs to be looked at. Signs, lamps, strongwall mining, minedoor strength ondeed, twitter as a first line of defence for unlived in "wardeeds ", teleport meta (hurr hurr, why bother having horses mrc) , lack of an accurate way of hitting walls covered by being at the base of a pit 500 plus slope deep.

It's the teleporting that really gets me though. Like, heck bank size and cooldown is the way it is for the reason that it stopped people suiciding to a deed under attack and being fully equipped on arrival. Like what is the difference. One silly meta replaced by something even more convenient.

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Long, tedious and exhausting. Wow its no wonder you and your buddies list bricks as confirmed kills.

The whole thing really needs to be looked at. Signs, lamps, strongwall mining, minedoor strength ondeed, twitter as a first line of defence for unlived in "wardeeds ", teleport meta (hurr hurr, why bother having horses mrc) , lack of an accurate way of hitting walls covered by being at the base of a pit 500 plus slope deep.

It's the teleporting that really gets me though. Like, heck bank size and cooldown is the way it is for the reason that it stopped people suiciding to a deed under attack and being fully equipped on arrival. Like what is the difference. One silly meta replaced by something even more convenient.

you know, i changed my mind. So K? -1

Edited by Wulfgarr

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Dirt walls was certainly not something that was designed from the start as a pvp fortification, it sort-of just happened and became the defacto standard as people evolved the way they fortify their deeds. It's also the point with a sandbox, to use the features to your advantage (within rules and regulatory requirements of course).

 

thing is the time it takes to raid even a crappy noob deed is ridiculous because of poorly balanced mechanics being added for wow factor without any consideration for gameplay (ie. multistory, catapulting changes, meditation, valrei, sorcery, teleportation up the wazoo, horses, more horses, more spells, etc.)

 

it can take 12+ hours to raid a proper deed, and even then a gigantic raid force that has planned for weeks still has a very large chance of failing due to the ridiculous amount of mechanics that can single handedly stop a raid or slow it enough to effectively end it due to extremely disproportionate risk vs. reward

 

on top of that, all these ridiculous mechanics have become necessary and any group that wants to be taken seriously (and even those that don't) are making mountain top deeds with 270 slope rock holding up 1200 slope dirt walls with long houses that literally cannot be catapulting due to the ridiculous slope system with shaker orbs and reinforcements sitting two tiles inside the entrance in case of a raid with a 9000 strength steel door

 

how bad is it? HOME SERVERS are building these now, it's absurd and it needs to change

 

That's kinda twisting data... nobody is bashing alone.  Using your numbers, 20 people bashing would take less than 2 hours

 

Mine doors are fine for what they do, offer some sense of reasonable security when everything else is so easy to destroy and some reasonable security to keep all items you own safe.  Obviously if someone wants to get in they will, but making it easy to break in and get access to everything everyone owns is not a good step.  Yes this is a pvp server and we're meant to lose our stuff, I'm fine with that and I've had to happen to me enough to know that it's extremely harsh and can have negative affects in maintaining players

 

we know you always preach for your safety net mechanics, but those mechanics are dumb and bad for the game; they encourage running, hiding, and other cowardly behavior and lead to the meta we have now - log on to meditate in between steam / LoL games or when someone screams "HALP ME" in TS because the actual gameplay of Wurm Online sucks

 

you could always go back to MRH if you want to be safe

 

if you think 2h is very long time for something during the raid then you are mistaken. Raids imo should be hard, tedious and exhausting. People sink alot of money and work under deeds and they should not be easily destroyed. And before someone brings back lamps - idc about the lamps, make them stealable or what ever.

 

out of this I see

 

1. two hours to bash a single structure isn't a long time

2. pay to win is ok

3. standard MR "opinion" that "XXX that I can abuse and my enemy can't is fine, leave it as is; my enemy can use this and I can't NERFROLFPLS!"

 

so lets look at how this actually should work and why you and your kingdom are wrong (again)

 

1. two hours to bash a single structure actually is a wrong time (I shouldn't need to explain this)

2. pay to win is ######

3. no one cares about your kingdom's opinion, we all know it already because MR spams it in every thread so you can stop repeating yourself

4. people play games for fun and tedium is not fun; in fact tedium is a heavily criticized "feature" in many games and is widely opposed and labelled as an excuse for being unable to provide meaningful and entertaining gameplay, not a legitimate "feature" or "balance mechanic"

 

----------

 

so prettymuch there are two options for the devs

 

1. listen to the whiners and continue going in the wrong direction

2. ignore the whiners and actually design / balance the game properly with the knowledge that scrubs don't know how to make a game

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we know you always preach for your safety net mechanics, but those mechanics are dumb and bad for the game; they encourage running, hiding, and other cowardly behavior and lead to the meta we have now - log on to meditate in between steam / LoL games or when someone screams "HALP ME" in TS because the actual gameplay of Wurm Online sucks

 

you could always go back to MRH if you want to be safe

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out of this I see

 

1. two hours to bash a single structure isn't a long time

2. pay to win is ok

3. standard MR "opinion" that "XXX that I can abuse and my enemy can't is fine, leave it as is; my enemy can use this and I can't NERFROLFPLS!"

 

so lets look at how this actually should work and why you and your kingdom are wrong (again)

 

1. two hours to bash a single structure actually is a wrong time (I shouldn't need to explain this)

2. pay to win is ######

3. no one cares about your kingdom's opinion, we all know it already because MR spams it in every thread so you can stop repeating yourself

4. people play games for fun and tedium is not fun; in fact tedium is a heavily criticized "feature" in many games and is widely opposed and labelled as an excuse for being unable to provide meaningful and entertaining gameplay, not a legitimate "feature" or "balance mechanic"

 

----------

 

so prettymuch there are two options for the devs

 

1. listen to the whiners and continue going in the wrong direction

2. ignore the whiners and actually design / balance the game properly with the knowledge that scrubs don't know how to make a game

1. Yes, if you are raiding a deed it should take time to destroy it. It should give people time to react.

2. How is that pay to win? Because of karma? What? (The guards? The dirt?)

3. Lel, i thought you are stupid but this is beyond? This is suggestion thread meaning everyones opinion matters. What i have gathered from you is that you are the all mighty god who knows what this game is about, should be in the future and everything else is not important. I really could not care what you do or not do, but if you are asking for changes that affect me and my kingdom directly then you better make sure that opinion is important. Furthermore who are you to tell me that my opinion is not important? Nobody.

4. There is alot of people who play on PvE and have fun, there is tons of people who play on PvP servers and have fun, what you are asking is making one part that should be hard easy.

 

In general i think you are a sad little man. If you think it would be awesome that 5-10 attackers should be able to level a deed in 3-4h and get thru the safe mine in that time then i have to imagine if you are even playing on pvp servers. Raids are hard and they should be. Raids is by definition something that gives you nice loot of it like sparta for example or valhalla. Now if you raid a wardeed for 10h then ofcourse you wont get anything from it. Be ready for it instead of asking nerfs on everything and making it easier. Maybe you would like an afk raid?  Log in and put your account on "raid" - come back in 4h and that deed is disbanded and everything that was on deed is in your inventory? Sounds like a game for you. You can have those 4 h of raid time fun outside and get the easy loot.

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1. Yes, if you are raiding a deed it should take time to destroy it. It should give people time to react.

2. How is that pay to win? Because of karma? What? (The guards? The dirt?)

3. Lel, i thought you are stupid but this is beyond? This is suggestion thread meaning everyones opinion matters. What i have gathered from you is that you are the all mighty god who knows what this game is about, should be in the future and everything else is not important. I really could not care what you do or not do, but if you are asking for changes that affect me and my kingdom directly then you better make sure that opinion is important. Furthermore who are you to tell me that my opinion is not important? Nobody.

4. There is alot of people who play on PvE and have fun, there is tons of people who play on PvP servers and have fun, what you are asking is making one part that should be hard easy.

In general i think you are a sad little man. If you think it would be awesome that 5-10 attackers should be able to level a deed in 3-4h and get thru the safe mine in that time then i have to imagine if you are even playing on pvp servers. Raids are hard and they should be. Raids is by definition something that gives you nice loot of it like sparta for example or valhalla. Now if you raid a wardeed for 10h then ofcourse you wont get anything from it. Be ready for it instead of asking nerfs on everything and making it easier. Maybe you would like an afk raid? Log in and put your account on "raid" - come back in 4h and that deed is disbanded and everything that was on deed is in your inventory? Sounds like a game for you. You can have those 4 h of raid time fun outside and get the easy loot.

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Classy, use the raid where you're kingdom got rolf to pop a reinforcement beam in a safe mine as a good example of how to loot a deed and call any opponents to the current meta stupid just because they can't call 1800rolfhalppls onsite at a raid to literally change mechanics on the spot with no prewarning to the victims of it.

NICE ONE high five mrc head mechanics advisor

Hahhaha.. its funny how you are telling me Mrc has special treatment.. That is the joke of the day! Thank you for that.

Now a question. Was it or was it not a bug disintegrate succeeded and reinforcment stayed up? When did Rolf pop the reinforcment? Was JK using a supersafemine or not to stash all loot?

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I was going to type up a big spiel, but I'll get more satisfaction talking to a turnip.

k

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Fixes to commonly occurring bugs would go a long way to relieving many of the frustrations surrounding raids.


It's easy to look past the everyday bugs and wogic when things are chilled.


But every time someone loses gear because they got stuck behind a bugged gate or couldn't dig a tile because it had a sign on it, another one of these threads will pop up.


 


More keybinds couldn't hurt as well.


 


As for making things fun:


We are playing a game after all, so yes we should be having fun at pretty much every point.


But almost by its very definition you cannot have fun doing something tedious,


and raiding should never NOT be tedious, it would be unfair to the defender and the general spirit of PvP if Joe Wurmian could grab five friends at 3 AM and have his way with any deed he liked and avoid any and all confrontation


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If it's so much fun though, why are there not more disbands and raids occurring. Like, literally tit for tat, it goes "uhhh catapults this dirt pimple, oh noes alarm is trip, maek run", followed be "der they rans, amke teh repairs and add every bug we knows" which the response is "Hurr, moar catapulting and we'll gets them this time ".

Literally inane, insane boredom

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when the opinion excuse is used for stuff like "the earth wasn't formed 4.6 billion years ago" then yeah the "opinion" is wrong


 


same when you're asking for slanted "balance" or poor design that takes fun out of the game or that slants the balance in favor of one faction, player, etc.


 


if you legitimately believe that a single mine door should take 2 hours to bash with 20 people (as opposed to a few minutes for literally any other structure) you're wrong, plain and simple, and anything else you say is likely to follow suit


 


in case you haven't figured it out yet, a steel door can keep a 20+ man raid at bay for two hours against ZERO defenders, so great argument yet again


 


3 people shouldn't be able to raid a capitol deed in the middle of the night, but 50 people attacking shouldn't lose to 5 people defending because of broken mechanics


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