New Permissions (Part 1) - Gates

[Reylaark 1,100]

I'm curious why not allow mayors the ability to override anything on their own deed.  Waiting to see if it becomes a problem later seems to me to be just inviting abuse, when it's easy to see in advance how this can be abused.  A sad truth, but truth nonetheless, is that if there is a way to abuse something, someone will.  I learned early on, in the early days of UO, to never underestimate the ingenuity and determination of a griefer.

 

Maybe there are some reasons that I just don't see, or a use for this, that someone should have an ability on someone's deed that the mayor can't override if necessary?  All too often we've seen situations where someone weasels their way into someone's trust, and then stabs them in the back, where the victims are powerless to do anything about it and are then told they're stupid for trusting that person.

 

In my opinion, the owner/mayor of the deed should be able to override anything on deed at any time.

Say my brother and I share a deed. We trust each other. However, just as a matter of mutual respect and ensuring the peace, we want to have certain areas that are only for one of us.

As Mayor, my brother could clear the "settlement manage" setting and give me, the owner of the gate, sole control of it.  That also means that if he takes on villagers, he can't mistakenly give a new citizen access to my gate.  He would never do that, but I often worry for nothing.  Wouldn't have to in this case.  Only I, as owner of the lock on that gate, can set the setting back.

 

If I understand correctly, the Mayor would have to consciously choose to clear that setting.  Once they do so, the owner of this gate can rest assured they have privacy and sole control.  

It is something that a mayor should *not* do lightly.  I would do it only for people if I know where they sleep in RL 

 

Also, I think the mayor would still have the option of bashing the gate if it came to that under extreme circumstances.

 

Finally, I could be completely wrong about all of this 

 

ps. awesome work Tich 

[NESGamepro 350]

Oh thanks Rey, I missed that. Ownership paper sounds like they could be great, maybe not even need separate pens for them.

[Tich 1,389]

@tarlynn

1. Deeds can expand over gates like now.

2. If deed is expanded over gates, it takes control of them (the 'settlement may manage' flag is auto set and citizens are set to allow passage.

3. All off-deed gates can be bashed, and gates on deed can be bashed when you have the permission.

4. Correct.

5. There will still be locks, so no change from how it is now.

 

@Reylaak

Mayor (or any one with correct permission) can bash fences (on deed)

[Ayes 3,715]

 

Question With this new system, should gate locks still have keys? if they do, could be problematic.

 

My curiosity is aroused! What happens to the keys then? I would think that gate locks will continue to be made with a key provided as well. This being for off deed use as well as on perimeters. Maybe then if the gate lock is attached on deed then the key vanishes? Or maybe a special gate lock is created for on deed use with no key provided? Just wondering...

 

Also, if there is no key associated with a gate locked on deed, then when the deed is disbanded and the gate is unlocked automatically and the player wants to continue to live there, seems they will have a problem with numerous unsecurable gates without any keys for them.

 

I am not too sure about what is "problematic" with allowing only the mayor to attach locks on deed and then just dumping the gate keys in a container in their house as is currently done.

 

It seems your main intent here is to allow the deed mayor to have more control access over every gate on deed on a varied basis according to individuals or even everyone. Will be a great system no doubt but I think the keys should remain under the mayors control, even though getting rid of extra keys sounds appealing to some.

 

=Ayes=

[Alexgopen 2,376]

How are horse ownership papers supposed to work on pvp servers where horses change hands every battle?

[KanePT 699]

I think a "universal" form that is applicable to all permissions is probably better than having a different system for each thing.

There was a post on suggestions with a nice mock-up of a UI for this.

But all in all, keep the "trusted friend's list" that's a nice thing i spotted there.

Keep the add player by name thing.

Then pretty much use a form similar to deed permissions for EVERYTHING, just change which permissions are available in it.

But for the love of everything that you have that's dear to you, use a standardized form for all permissions. It makes everything faster to learn, and easier to use.

[tarlynn 196]

I may have been misinterpreting the original post, but this post is to discuss gates and their permissions. Tich stated that she will be disclosing and discussing writ papers in a subsequent thread at a later date.

[MetalDragon 1,630]

Here is my counter pvp argument.

While I welcome removing keys, being able to obtain a key set from a deed (if they are foolish enough to store them) allows for easy repeat visits. Removing them also removes this PvP tactic.

[Arronicus 641]

 

When the village disbands, currently all gates are unlocked, but following this change only the 'settlement may manage' gates (that were on deed) will be unlocked. All gates that the settlement could manage (on or off deed) will revert back to the 'owner's.

 

This part is a little confusing to me, under the new system, if a village disbands, all gates that the settlement may manage unlock AND revert back to the owners control or?

Edited July 28, 2015 by Arronicus

[Edge 141]

This is looking good and much needed.

[McDaniel 342]

sorry if i missed it, but will you be able to see who owns a gate?

[Jaz 2,666]

a player from trusted friends list

a player from friends list

Sounds great! Can we add the above groups as a whole not just players from the list? Could make it much tidier and would save a lot of setup time with extensive friend list

[Audrel 2,223]

"When the village disbands, currently all gates are unlocked, but following this change only the 'settlement may manage' gates (that were on deed) will be unlocked. All gates that the settlement could manage (on or off deed) will revert back to the 'owner's."

 

I would prefer the gates to not unlock upon disband. Though it is not advisable to undeed and live in the wild, it's possible. With this reversion of the locks, it's going to unlock everything on anyone who chooses this. Gates off deed can be bashed by anyone. No need to have them unlock. EDIT: I think I may be reading this wrong, Tich. :-P

 

Also, you can't manage an off-deed lock unless you are a villager? Or did I read that wrong. A person who lives off-deed wouldn't have a village. Again, their gate can be bashed. No reason to not have it able to be locked.

 

"If the gate is off deed the 'owner' will still be able to set the flag so long as they are a citizen of a deed." (This one, Tich)

Edited July 29, 2015 by Audrel

[sunsvortex 599]

 

Not sure what you are saying.. but I'll be redoing the building permissions to, so they will be almost the same.

 

Ok thats where I was going with it, wanted to know if you were going to use a consistent permissions system across the board instead of multiple inconsistent (Fences work this way, houses work this way, boats work this way ect ect ect) permission settings. If I am correct in understanding your response and the dialog below it,you are going with a consistent system across the board? At least as far as it makes sense to? (Ie physical permissions items for all the major items in game perhaps?)

 

 

In the Manage menu (on body or inventory) will have a Manage - Gates option. This will show a list containing...

All the gates that you attached locks to. (e.g. you are the owner) they must not have the 'settlement may manage' flag set.

 

 Will it be possible to make groups to drop the names of fences in? like in Inventory where we can make our own groups?(Assuming it goes in Body or somewhere besides Inventory) Would be helpful when you have a lot of stables with lots of gates to drop all the gates in stable A into its own subgroup. Would also be helpful as later when you have Ownership Papers on animals one could drop in the ownership papers as well within that subgroup so that you can easily look remotely at what animals are in what stable and assign permissions to whatever individual needs them.

EXAMPLE

 

Stable A

    -Gate A

        -Ownership paper (Animal Name)

    -Gate B

        -Ownership Paper (Animal Name)

Stable B

    -Gate A

        -Ownership Paper (Animal Name)

    -Gate B

 

If im not being clear here the ultimate goal being a one stop UI that allows management of all physical permission items (Writs, Ownership Papers ect.)  Meaning setting permissions and organizing the physical items within a single UI.(This assumes that your ultimate goal will be to use physical permission items on nearly everything.)

 

Maybe a tabbed UI that is divided up into the major items

EXAMPLE

 

Settlement / Cart / Animal /Boat /Gate

Under each tab it lists all the items you have ownership of and or can set permissions to. Something along these lines would be very handy. If it has a secondary inventory for storing all the physical permission items, this would also be great for management.

Edited July 29, 2015 by sunsvortex

[Dairuka 888]

This new permissions proposal is a great one.

 

The prospect of getting rid of keys forever, is a dream come true.

 

Thank you for outlining this for us Tich. It gives us a little glimmer of hope.

Edited July 29, 2015 by Dairuka

[LorraineJ 1,099]

I didn't read all the posts yet because I started to get dizzy but:

 

* When I've tried to manage gates from the deed paper, I got massively confused because it was next to impossible to figure out which gate was which, on a large deed. Will we be able to actually walk up to gates and manage their perms right on them? I think that might be easier than managing remotely through the deed token or paper.

 

* Can there be a way to have sort of "reverse" permissions? What I mean is, "anyone can pass EXCEPT these persons." I guess it would be like a mild KoS type thing, to keep known troublemakers from walking through the deed - ?

[Cenotaph 118]

Migh sound too tacky, but these proposed changes sounds very sexy.

[Tich 1,389]

Also, if there is no key associated with a gate locked on deed, then when the deed is disbanded and the gate is unlocked automatically and the player wants to continue to live there, seems they will have a problem with numerous unsecurable gates without any keys for them.

 

I was hoping to get rid of keys for gates totally. If the 'settlement may manage' flag is not set, then the 'owner' can manage the gate.

 

How are horse ownership papers supposed to work on pvp servers where horses change hands every battle?

 

I've yet to finalize how Ownership papers will work but some thoughts so far are...

1. The 'Ownership papers" are only for transferring ownership of an object (ones with permissions attached plus maybe others like bsbs).
2. If in inventory they would not last very long, and could well vanish when enemy in local
3. If you logout with an ownership paper on you, it will vanish.
4. As soon as one is traded to you, it will vanish (with an appropriate event message).

 

I think a "universal" form that is applicable to all permissions is probably better than having a different system for each thing.

 

That's the plan, but each object can have different permissions, would make no sense for a building to have 'can command' as a permission. 

 

While I welcome removing keys, being able to obtain a key set from a deed (if they are foolish enough to store them) allows for easy repeat visits. Removing them also removes this PvP tactic.

 

Yes that's why I've not made my mind up yet, but no keys would help newer players from locking themselves out etc. 

 

This part is a little confusing to me, under the new system, if a village disbands, all gates that the settlement may manage unlock AND revert back to the owners control or?

 

Yea (for the ones that were on deed), the ones that were off deed that had 'settlement may manage' would just revert to the 'owner' ('owner' being the person who attached the lock)

 

sorry if i missed it, but will you be able to see who owns a gate?

 

I can add that.

 

a player from trusted friends list

a player from friends list

Sounds great! Can we add the above groups as a whole not just players from the list? Could make it much tidier and would save a lot of setup time with extensive friend list

 

You will be able to add all friends in trusted category at once, but they would not be a group. Reason for this is that i'm trying to move away from using groups, more so for items that can cross servers, but in an effort to keep the permissions screen based on same theme. 

 

"If the gate is off deed the 'owner' will still be able to set the flag so long as they are a citizen of a deed." (This one, Tich)

 

Yea, any off deed building (what I was thinking is one used to control mine access or a hunting lodge), the 'owner' would be able to set the 'settlement may manage' flag so the control could be done from citizens with the appropriate permissions.

 

 Will it be possible to make groups to drop the names of fences in?

 

No.

 

* When I've tried to manage gates from the deed paper, I got massively confused because it was next to impossible to figure out which gate was which, on a large deed. Will we be able to actually walk up to gates and manage their perms right on them? I think that might be easier than managing remotely through the deed token or paper.

 

* Can there be a way to have sort of "reverse" permissions? What I mean is, "anyone can pass EXCEPT these persons." I guess it would be like a mild KoS type thing, to keep known troublemakers from walking through the deed - ?

 

1. Yes, (says so In OP ;p)

2. Not in the plan - I think it would make it more over complicated.

[Audrel 2,223]

I am still iffy on the gates unlock when a deed is disbanded. It will be possible to immediately catapult them away. Make us work a little to raid the fences.

[Tich 1,389]

I am still iffy on the gates unlock when a deed is disbanded.

 

Its what happens now.

[Lolabelle 597]

Sorry did not see the ownership papers for horses. Sounds good.  maybe could be used in conjunction with branding.  Branding would show the owner of the horse rather than the deed.

[Lolabelle 597]

Its what happens now

We just disbanded a deed and the gates are locked.  I checked last night.  I will have a look again.

 

The gates are indeed locked. 

Edited July 29, 2015 by Lolabelle

[bdew 2,462]

No more keys!!! YES!!! 

 

+1

 

While we are at it, could we please remove keys for boats, carts and wagons that already have a permission system?

 

Added: When the system is originally deployed existing keys should stay around and allow taking ownership over the gate, destroying the key in the process. New locks should be created without keys. 

Edited July 29, 2015 by bdew

[Kegan 3,926]

As far as the pvp and finding a batch of keys go..

 

We have all had to make sacrifices for the good of the game and this should be one of yours. We don't want or need a bunch of keys clogging up our inventory just because you want to make your next raid easier. (that's my opinion on the deal anyway) 

Edited July 29, 2015 by Kegan

[geode 292]

Some good suggestions for change to gate lock system.... although seems a tad bit complicated to me at this point. Thank you Tich for your work, much appreciated.

 

Question:

 

So what happens to Existing Gate Locks?  Do they get labelled with who attached them or simply become "Unowned"? (I have doubt the System remembers who attached locks)

 

After the new permissions take effect am I going to have to log into my ancient characters from years ago that built gates and attached locks and either bash or reassign permissions? I haven't even attempted to remember all the gates and locks I have attached on all my characcters. What about the New Mayors that now deed the land I once used... what kind of headache will they have to regain control of the gate locks?

Edited July 29, 2015 by geode