Tich

New Permissions (Part 1) - Gates

100 posts in this topic

As part of the permissions changes I'm going to do a series of posts to get some feedback and hopefully, make.sure, I've not missed too much. These posts will not be in any particular order.


Overall I'l be covering...


  • Animals
  • Buildings
  • Carts
  • Gates
  • Mine Doors
  • Ownership Papers (so can trade horses and things like that).
  • Settlement (roles) - currently in testing on test server.
  • Ships
  • Wagons

This is the first in the series and is to do with permissions for individual gates.


 


Gate Permissions


 


Currently


 


Gates are only controlled when on deed by people with the "Manage Settlement" permission, and you may only set the open/close times and a name for each of those gates.


 


Proposed


 


In the Manage menu (on body or inventory) will have a Manage - Gates option. This will show a list containing...


  • All the gates that you attached locks to. (e.g. you are the owner) they must not have the 'settlement may manage' flag set.
  • if you have the 'Manage Allowed Gates' role permission (Mayor always does) then
    • All gates are shown that are on deed, with information on if settlement may manage it.

Manage Permissions will only work if gate has a lock.


Actually can only access the permissions screen if it has a lock.


The "May Pass" permission is only checked if the gate is locked.


 


The list will allow remote naming and managing permissions (including changing the 'settlement may manage' flag). Permissions are player oriented but also include groups or citizens, allies and everyone.(see Management of Gates below)


 


Available permissions on the gate (per person/group) are..


  • "May Manage" controls the ability to name the gate and change permissions on that gate.
  • "May Pass"
  • "May Lock" (or Unlock).

More about the 'Settlement may manage' flag


  • All existing gates on deed will start with this set and the 'may pass' will be defaulted to be true for citizens (only).
  • Any (new) gates that are on deed which have a lock attached will automatically have this set and the 'may pass' will be defaulted to be true for citizens (only).
  • Only the mayor can clear this flag. (e.g. let the 'owner' have control).
  • Only the 'owner' can set this flag (Owner is the person who attached the lock). and thus allow the village to control the settings

  • If the gate is off deed the 'owner' will still be able to set the flag so long as they are a citizen of a deed.




  • If the owner changes village (or kingdom) after doing this, the village that can control this gate stays the same.




  • Expanding a deed over an existing gate will automatically set the flag.




  • Shrinking a deed so a gate is not longer on deed will remove the flag, thus reverting it to the 'owner'.



The 'owner' will be able to change the owner so long as they have control (e.g. the 'settlement may manage' flag is not set).


 


Question With this new system, should gate locks still have keys? if they do, could be problematic.


 


When a village gets put on alert, all gates (on deed) will be locked, and when the alert is over, they will revert to the state they were before the alert.


 


When the village disbands, currently all gates should be unlocked, but following this change only the 'settlement may manage' gates (that were on deed) will be unlocked. All gates that the settlement could manage (on or off deed) will revert back to the 'owner's.


 


Adding a lock to the gates on deed will be controlled by the deed "Attach Locks" permission and the current deed gate permissions will vanish.


 


Can rename or manage permissions for a gate by r-clicking if have the appropriate permission.


 


Management of Gates


You will be able to add


  • a player by name,
  • a player from trusted friends list
  • a player from friends list
  • a player from deed citizens (if you are a citizen)
  • a Citizens group (e.g. all citizens would have the permissions).
  • a Allies group (all allies would have the permissions)
  • a Same Kingdom group (all members of kingdom would have same permissions). 

You will also be able to change permissions for any of the above.


 


Tich


 


Please do comment.


Edited by Tich
changed remote wording.
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This sounds good.   It will allow a lot more flexibility with plots of land within deeds and not requiring a building to restrict access to areas (which takes up a lot of space).


 


1 question: will the owner's name appear in the examine text for a gate? And also, will be be able to right click on the gate to manage the settings for that specific gate? As currently trying to manage gates on a deed is really annoying as you have no idea what gate is what unless you go through your list and assign each a unique name first.  And you can potentially have hundreds of gates, so it will be a... large list.


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This sounds good.   It will allow a lot more flexibility with plots of land within deeds and not requiring a building to restrict access to areas (which takes up a lot of space).

 

1 question: will the owner's name appear in the examine text for a gate? And also, will be be able to right click on the gate to manage the settings for that specific gate? As currently trying to manage gates on a deed is really annoying as you have no idea what gate is what unless you go through your list and assign each a unique name first.  And you can potentially have hundreds of gates, so it will be a... large list.

"Can rename or manage permissions for a gate by r-clicking if have the appropriate permission"

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I guess you can as a mayor change the owner of a gate to yourself if the current owner of the gate quits or is removed? Is this done by a lock change or just in settings if allowed. (like if a member that is not mayor puts the gate lock on) 


 


I vote no key but not sure how that works off deed but losing keys for new players have been an issue anyway so seems okay. The only thing i can think of is maybe selling horses with gate lock keys..idk


 


 


Edit: I am a hands on kind of tester but from what i can figure out it seems okay so far. 


Edited by Kegan
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Why cant fence gates work like houses for permissions?


 


Why wouldnt you want them to work like housing permissions?


 


What advantage does the proposed system give over making the fence gates work like housing permissions?

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talking about access also consider lockpicking (esp on pvp). Without gate lock, how do lockpicking counted? against masonry? xD 


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What about gates that are not on a deed and the 'owner' does not belong to a deed.  Why would gates go to unlocked when a settlement drops.  Currently they do not and I don't think I would like for them to go unlocked.  The locks are still locked.


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talking about access also consider lockpicking (esp on pvp). Without gate lock, how do lockpicking counted? against masonry? xD 

It has locks just no key is what the question was about as far as i can tell so it will have locks 

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No key for sure, if that can be removed then I'll be very happy :)


 


By the looks of it, you have already done your homework very well Tich ;) Cant seem to find anything missing that I can think of, nor much I can add.


 


Maybe one thing, the naming, is the name visible when hovered over the gate? I havent done anything with the current gate settings, so it might already be ingame (it bit to far away from my deed to test it quickly).


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I have one concern that I feel almost every pvper and even pve-er will have as well. If an enemy player(or griefer on freedom) in the middle of a raid were to attach a lock to an unlocked fence that is on my deed, will they be able to manage the permissions as the technical owner so that said fence(s) have to be bashed and replaced? I see that only the mayor can clear the settlement may manage option. But technically they are still the owner, does this give them options to make the fence passable or not?


 


Basically it seems that I am going to have to have a list of every gate with the gate QL and the lock QL on my deed and which ones have locks with this new system. The reason I say that is because anyone with build permissions is just going to be able to make a gate on my deed and attach a lock, which if they can't manage it even as owner I am fine with. Also with the current state of deed management all an enemy would have to do is kill all of my templars then they can attach a lock or even bash and build a new gate without my knowledge. Effectively giving them free reign over my deed in the future if I don't notice.


 


If this is the way it will work then you have a resounding no from me. I like the idea but it seems like a PVE only type of permission system.


 


EDIT: I reread the OP and saw the "Only mayor can clear the 'settlement may manage' flag" so I changed the post to the remaining concerns. All of these concerns are also based on the idea that you remove keys from gate locks. If you left keys in game then that opens up a whole new boatload of concerns I would have.


Edited by Zol

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As for gates on pvp servers...


I'd hate to see gates being made into mine-door style things since they would be everywhere blocking access.


Currently people are forced to spend a decent ammount of time terraforming and building a proper house to block enemy movement while allowing ally movement.


With this change all of that would be 10 times easier since gates can be placed on uneven ground on a single tile border pretty much anywhere.


 


I suggest the management settings are for deeds only.


 


 


edit:


Unless.... Make picklocking any kind of lock remove the lock. (off-deed walls/houses would be added to the already lock-losing transports and containers).


This would make people consider if its a good idea to put up a lot of spammed gates everywhere offdeed since the enemy could potentially turn it against them.


Infact... that would be pretty cool and it would neutralize offdeed gatehouse spam. Please add this. <3


 


sidenote: houses would obviously still be owned by whoever has the writ, but gates could "switch ownership"


Edited by Zekezor

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Question With this new system, should gate locks still have keys? if they do, could be problematic.


 


I think i speak for everyone when I say.... No Keys would be amazing!!!


 



Rolf....hire this woman full time!


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"Can rename or manage permissions for a gate by r-clicking if have the appropriate permission"

 

The one line I didn't read.  Ignore me and carry on ¬.¬

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Question With this new system, should gate locks still have keys? if they do, could be problematic.

 

I think i speak for everyone when I say.... No Keys would be amazing!!!

 

Rolf....hire this woman full time!

Sad part of this would be the change to the Horse sales from merchants where you purchase a key.

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Sad part of this would be the change to the Horse sales from merchants where you purchase a key.

 

As part of the permissions changes I'm going to do a series of posts to get some feedback and hopefully, make.sure, I've not missed too much. These posts will not be in any particular order.

Overall I'l be covering...

  • Animals

  • Buildings

Carts

Gates

Mine Doors

Ownership Papers (so can trade horses and things like that).

Settlement (roles) - currently in testing on test server.

Ships

Wagons

 

;)

Edited by Zekezor

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I guess you can as a mayor change the owner of a gate to yourself if the current owner of the gate quits or is removed? Is this done by a lock change or just in settings if allowed. (like if a member that is not mayor puts the gate lock on) 

 

Possibly, currently I'm only allowing the owner to change the owner. Will see if it become a problem later.

 

Why cant fence gates work like houses for permissions?

 

Why wouldnt you want them to work like housing permissions?

 

What advantage does the proposed system give over making the fence gates work like housing permissions?

 

Not sure what you are saying.. but I'll be redoing the building permissions to, so they will be almost the same.

 

@Zol

When a lock is attached to a gate on deed, the 'settlement may manage' flag will be set and automatically a citizens may pass added to its list. Anyone with the "may manage allowed building" deed setting will be allow to change the settings.

 

Sad part of this would be the change to the Horse sales from merchants where you purchase a key.

My aim is to use the "Ownership papers" for this. More when I get that far as it will likely be near the end of my list.

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Lets hope the ownership papers on animals is not an actual item we have to carry around with us..guess we will see later. 


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Question With this new system, should gate locks still have keys? if they do, could be problematic.

 

 

 

No more keys!!! YES!!!  :)

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Locking Gates


The concern about someone snapping a lock on a gate and becoming the owner isn't new. If you leave a gate unlocked off-deed right now, anyone can lock it and keep you out (or in, but that's another problem entirely). On PvP, you cannot go against permissions until all the guards are dead. Thus it would still work the same as it does now - if you build a gate with enemies on-deed and finish it without guards spawned, they can still lock your gate for you. I think the only thing that you get on-deed is that the gate falls under "pass gate" permission? Still, you won't be able to keep them *out* of that gate now.


 


Ownership Papers - Horses


Ownership papers for horses should use the person's animal husbandry to set the examine text or some sort of info window to the horse's examine. This way a prospective buyer can see exactly what the seller would see as far as traits go. If you're in the horse business, you can likely see all of these traits anyway, no? I never liked the buying a key off the merchant thing because that's putting a lot of trust into the seller.


 


Gates as House permissions


Gates and houses are different, so their permissions should be different. From what I'm reading, this is just putting some ease to something we can already do if we choose to make a bunch of keys and hand them out. Wurm is growing, so a mature permission system like this only makes sense. In PvP, I do understand the concern that "gates will be annoying" as they become a defacto way to block access, but I find 1x1 houses to be just as annoying. It isn't very hard to flatten one tile and plop down a stone door. On the other hand, gates and fences have one major drawback over structures. You can still jump over them if you can get high enough! All of the settings are for nothing if you aren't managing the terrain properly.


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If you can come up with a better system to allow selling animals without using keys, then please get ride of all the keys.


 


In fact if you can come with a system to also allow bulk selling on merchants then we can get ride of every damn key on the game and this include ships, carts, and all other containers.


 


Edit: Maybe we can replace keys with a code system? and you can sell the code in your merchant trough a papyrus or something like that?


 


Of course papyrus should remain unreadable while on merchant.


Edited by KunAlt
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Possibly, currently I'm only allowing the owner to change the owner. Will see if it become a problem later.

 

 

 

I'm curious why not allow mayors the ability to override anything on their own deed.  Waiting to see if it becomes a problem later seems to me to be just inviting abuse, when it's easy to see in advance how this can be abused.  A sad truth, but truth nonetheless, is that if there is a way to abuse something, someone will.  I learned early on, in the early days of UO, to never underestimate the ingenuity and determination of a griefer.

 

Maybe there are some reasons that I just don't see, or a use for this, that someone should have an ability on someone's deed that the mayor can't override if necessary?  All too often we've seen situations where someone weasels their way into someone's trust, and then stabs them in the back, where the victims are powerless to do anything about it and are then told they're stupid for trusting that person.

 

In my opinion, the owner/mayor of the deed should be able to override anything on deed at any time.

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If keys get removed from gates how will I sell horses through my merchant?


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If keys get removed from gates how will I sell horses through my merchant?

From a few posts earlier: 

 

Sad part of this would be the change to the Horse sales from merchants where you purchase a key.

My aim is to use the "Ownership papers" for this. More when I get that far as it will likely be near the end of my list.

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Tich,


 


Thank you first of all for all the hard work you are putting into the deed permissions and settings. This is going to be a huge help. From what I have read I would have to vote to have no keys to the gates. The reason for this would primarily be because as you have described it that gates would then revert to "ownership" (or whoever holds the key to the gate) settings after a deed disbands or a settlement is resized to where the gate is no longer part of the deed. Having this revert to the person who owns the key could cause griefing in and of itself. Example: if I have a settlement that I am getting ready to leave, I make keys to the gates, resize the deed to less than the current size where the gates are, then pass of deed ownership to someone else and go on my way. Now the issue would be that I own all the gates, the other villagers have no access to what has become MY gates not DEED gates, and they are boxed in. The new deed owner cannot resize over something owned by me in order to be able to control the gates. I have successfully boxed in the deed and its villagers.


 


Also, if a deed was to disband and revert to the key holders responsibility, then I would have essentially just closed off a portion of the map from a wary traveler. There are already enough disbanded villages that create mazes out of the wild terrain as it is now. So we would just have to wait till these gates decay in order to be able to access the area to either deed it ourselves or just be able to walk through without having to navigate around. My understanding would be that you cannot bash something on a PvE server owned by someone else so we could not just simply bash these gates.


 


So this all brings up several questions for me If you don't mind....


1) Will there be a mechanism in place that will prevent for the use of griefing like in my first example?


2) If someone creates a fence off deed, if ownership of that fence is set by lock, can a deed extend over the fence and then does it revert to the deeds fence, or is it still owned by the person?


3) If a player holds "ownership" over a fence and then subsequently leaves game or disbands their deed, can said gate be bashed?


4) You mention being able to add friends, trusted friends, citizens, allies and kingdom players to gates, will there also be an option to be able to add an individual player similar to current mine door settings? This would help if I have someone coming to deed to do some work, and also allow for limiting exactly where they can go on deed while they are there for work. I don't want to have to add everyone to friends to be able to manage their access. Just reread post and you have already mention you can add a player by only name


5) How will this change lockpicking mechanics in PvP if there is no technical locks on the gates, or keys that are owned?


 


Thank you for taking the time to read this and answer these questions. I know that these may seem a little far fetched, but it was just my thoughts and opinions. Please keep up the good work, cannot wait to see this implemented. By far one of the best things that have been worked on for Wurm to date.


 


Thanks,


Silas


 


*Edit* Added question 5, and answered question 4 :)


Edited by tarlynn

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