Game Developers, Wake Up About Rare *Creation* Mechanics

[As_I_Decay 1,592]

I've just concluded my little test today, and I'm thoroughly convinced that Picotto is lying.  You want proof Dairuka?  Here it is.

I wanted to make a rare awl.  In order to do that, I'm creating awls, one after the other, trying to get what we're calling in this thread a "Creation rare".

TL:DR

Iron Lumps-  35 minutes of mining, 15 minutes of melting.

Shafts/Handles-  2.75 Hours

Awl Blades-  4 hours

Making Awls- 4.5 Hours

Rares acquired-  1

Time spent (1 toon)-  12 hours

 

I'd agree. Yesterday, I spent about 4 hours making a few hundred chisels. 1 rare came of it. Personally, I've always had better luck turning a tool rare by imping than by creation anyway.

To throw my opinion into the pool. I think the current system is fine. 

Edited July 29, 2015 by As_I_Decay

[geode 292]

The current Rare creation mechanics do not concern me. I don't participate in religion so I have no bonus to create a rare and as such I have never created a rare nor got a rare through imping. Not once. Since religion and rares are tied together I doubt Rolf will change that relationship mechanic so I won't ask for that.

 

The only thing I ever get from the rare "creation" system is drum roles for farming (pointless since I never see any apparent benefit) or foraging (that part is appreciated). I get the occasional rare log or shard.... items that are useless to me in a practical sense since I have no saccing ability. I can't put them in a bsb or use them in any normal way due to not being able to combine them with anything else, so I trash them. My trash heap definently stays fed.

 

What I care about is this: Throwing away resources due to them being a pain to combine or store is irratating....Can Rolf please allow rare items to be added to bsb/fsb and lose the rarity so I don't have to toss this stuff out?

Edited July 29, 2015 by geode

[As_I_Decay 1,592]

What I care about is this: Can Rolf please allow rare items to be added to bsb/fsb and lose the rarity so I don't have to toss this stuff out?

I'd bo okay with this, as long as they separated all rares within a pile list. Currently, there are a few items that share a parent pile with regular items - logs being one example.

[Dairuka 888]

I've just concluded my little test today, and I'm thoroughly convinced that Picotto is lying.  You want proof Dairuka?  Here it is.

I wanted to make a rare awl.  In order to do that, I'm creating awls, one after the other, trying to get what we're calling in this thread a "Creation rare".

TL:DR

Iron Lumps-  35 minutes of mining, 15 minutes of melting.

Shafts/Handles-  2.75 Hours

Awl Blades-  4 hours

Making Awls- 4.5 Hours

Rares acquired-  1

Time spent (1 toon)-  12 hours

----------------------------------

Warning:  Maths below

I started with a BSB full of shafts and iron lumps.  I did not have to take the time to mine the 300 iron in this case, but it would have taken me:

Iron Lumps:  5 mining actions =  31.7 seconds.  Add in a few seconds to rest, drink water, etc and we'll call it 35 seconds for easy math.  75 Mining, 80 ql w72 rare pick, for those wondering.

4.8

5.2

6.8

7.2

7.7

300 Iron lumps were needed in order to make 1,000 awl blades, so that took me 300/5=60 sets of actions * 35 seconds = 2100 seconds = 35 minutes.

After spending 35 minutes to mine the iron ore, I would probably spend about 10-15 minutes cooking it into Iron Lumps.

Shafts:  I need 1000 handles, which means I need 100 shafts.  Action timers with a w64 carving knife @ 80ql and 65 carpentry.  34 seconds, call it 40 with rest.  100 shafts, 20 sets of actions... 40 seconds * 20 sets = 800 seconds.  About 14 minutes.

5.3

5.6

7.3

7.7

8.1

Handles:  From here, I need to carve 1,000 shafts out of these 100 shafts.  Actions based on the same carving knife and carpentry skill as above.    39.1 seconds per set of actions.  1,000 / 5 = 200 sets of actions.  200 * 45 seconds = 9,000 seconds = 150 minutes = 2.5 hours

6.0

6.4

8.3

8.9

9.5

Awl blades:  Time to fire up the forge!  With my trusty 80ql w60 small anvil, I start making awl blades, but realize I only have an 80% chance to succeed due to my 15 blade smithing skill (which is now 20).  I need 1,000 awl blades, whch is 200 sets of actions.

200 sets of actions *  57.3 seconds (call it 60 seconds) = 12,000 seconds = 200 minutes = 3 and 1/3 hours.  Add another 20% due to my failure rate (which seemed much higher) and you're sitting at 4 hours.

8.4

9.2

12.1

13.2

14.4

Now I have my wagon full of awl blades, my BSB full of handles, and I'm ready to start making the awls themselves.  it only took me 7 hours, but I'm ready to make my rare Awl, so I start creating.  Now, going by the guide, with a 10 second rare window, I only need to make one awl every 20 seconds, so I can get more rares from my resources.  

Creating an awl takes me 7.7 seconds.  According to the wiki, Awls (not the blades) improve with blacksmithing, and fortunately I have 95 skill.  99% creation chance, though i did fail a few times.  Anyway, I only need to make one every 20 seconds (from the guide), so I would wait 8-10 seconds before clicking my crafting window to make another one.  

For easy math, lets go with 7.7 seconds creation + 7.3 seconds rest = 15 seconds.  I didn't want to cut it so close to 20 that I might miss the window. But if I were to use the full 20 seconds, it would take 33% longer than the math below, furthering my point.

That means I'm about to perform 1,000 15 second actions.  That's 15,000 seconds with 95 blacksmithing, which translates to 4.5 hours.    This was not *exact*, because I would sometimes que 5 actions to go AFK for a minute.  

I ended up getting my rare awl after about 850 creations.

Based on these numbers, it would be more profitable in my case to make mortar as opposed to fooling with all these crafted parts.  Using my 95 blacksmithing skill to make a blacksmithing tool, WoA and high QL tools for creation, I'm fairly confident that my numbers aren't dragged out by a lack of skill.  It would take other people with less skill and worse tools much longer to complete the same task, especially with the use of a non-premium alt, as is mentioned in the rare guide.

The last rare awl sold at 12s buyout on an auction.  12 silver for 12 hours of work for a 95 blacksmith seems pretty fair to me.  What's so game breaking about this?

 

You did a 12 hour test (4.5 hours if you just count the awls) in the 2 hours since your last post? Hmm...

 

Anyhow, you're only accounting for a single character. If this argument is entirely about the validity of Picotto's statements, my guess is that Picotto wasn't lying based on my own experiences multiboxing alts, at worst he might be exaggerating and embellishing a little. Please also remember that he 'bought' pre-made shafts and iron for his guide, so this whole point is moot regarding the mining, smelting, woodcutting, and shaftmaking parts.

 

Using even a single extra freelo alt, with absolutely no skill in any of the necessary skills, with the basic newbie tools to offer up a worst case scenario for contrast:

 

3 mining actions = 20s + 33.9s + 48.2s = 102.1s

 

If 5 mining actions with your main = 31.7 seconds, you'll perform 16.1 actions in the time it takes the freelo to make 3. This means you'll have 19.1 mining actions for every 102.1s.

 

300/19.1 = 15.7068 x 102.1s = 1603 = 26.72 (26m 43s) minutes. A little more than 8 minutes less.

 

Now for fun, lets add a second extra alt to the mix and suddenly you get 22.1 mining actions for every 102.1s.

 

300/22.1 = 13.57 x 102.1s = 1386 =  23.1 (23m 06s) minutes. Almost 12 minutes less.

 

Now what happens if we add an alt with similar skill as your main? It's not unheard of. What if both toons are now making tools? What if the alt is a primary miner, while the other characters are specialized for carpentry, and blacksmithing? (I do this myself)

 

Remember, Picotto had an alt with stats we have no idea about. Besides, I never said the creation system was broken, those are other people's words, not mine. I said, and continue to say the system is flawed, and abusable while at the same time offering up ideas for solutions. (The same way Nahjo's sac is flawed and abusable, hence the bemused reference earlier in the thread.) I also stated multiple times in this thread that I don't want it to be nerfed. (At least not in the same way Improving was nerfed.)

 

As unpopular as my stance is (Advocating for change is never popular), I still feel the rare system needs a second glance from the development team.

Edited July 29, 2015 by Dairuka

[Ayes 3,715]

You are doing something wrong then, rarity window perhaps?

My blacksmithing is at 85.8 now, skilled by improving tools and horse shoes for myself and a few friends, I got 6 rare items from it, 5 rare tools and 1 rare horse shoe.

 

You keep saying the same thing over and over again.  "It's easier to create rares rather than imp them".  No, it's not.

You also forget that 99% of blacksmiths don't keep their rare wnidow maxed just to spend 30 minutes imping a few tools.  99% of the creation rares are done with a rare bonus already activated, the other 1% are blind luck (like the time I made a rare longsword when I was crafting 30 of them to improve for grinding WS).

Ok, I have to admit you have me stumped here with this rarity window and keeping it maxed. No idea.

 

It seems that it was my naive belief that sitting in front of a forge for 2-5 hours with sleep bonus on while raising blacksmithing from the mid 40's to 90 would result in *a* Rare being produced from all these actions over this extended period of time. I never realized that I needed to use any enhancement methods to produce at least 1 Rare.

 

Again, in my naivety I had thought that Rare's were just a random system introduced into the game as a nice occasional perk to players as they went about their normal imping actions. That others have discovered the best ways to produce the most Rare's by adjusting their methods is not surprising to me, although I have never gone out of my way to do so. Why? Because the pursuit of making money from playing the game has never held any interest to me.

 

My whole point with this topic that is perhaps overlooked, is that just from playing the game improving tools for hours in the normal way, Rare's as a perk from playing the game should appear occasionally. This would then make the Rare system rewarding to everyone rather than to just the few who fine tune all their actions and conditions to produce the most of them.

 

Never did I consider that Rare's were introduced into the game in other than a random mechanic which could not be manipulated by other players to their own advantage. And if this were found to be the case then the Developers would take action to prevent this system from being taken advantage of, as they have done in the past.

 

Of course I could be wrong. Perhaps I had best never brought this topic up. Yea, that's the ticket! Silence is golden and all that. Now where did that ostrich run off to?

 

Happy Trails

=Ayes=

[bigsteve 378]

I have been grinding weaponsmithing to 60.

I have used the same butch knives, carving knives and sickles, (cant rememder how many, 4 backpacks full).

I have only ever had 3 rare rolls imping but none went rare.

[Arronicus 636]

I already have disproved the source from my adventures standing in front of a forge for the last 2 years. 

And you can call my generalized percentages flawed statistics, but you cannot deny factual math.  You're choosing to continue ignoring it though, that's cool.  You're making it pretty clear why no change is needed because you clearly can't do more than look at the time he spent creating the tools.

 

How long did it take him to mine that much iron?  To cook it from ore into lumps?

How long did it take him to create the pickaxe heads?  (1.5 kg of iron each, btw)

How long did it take him to make however many shafts/handles for the tools?

 

Like I said, you're choosing to ignore the legwork required to make that many rares in "some days"  (how many days?  2?  3?  7?)

Just figured I'd answer two of those three questions for you.

How long did it take him to mine that much iron?  To cook it from ore into lumps?  - None. He bought 1k iron lump for 1s.

How long did it take him to make however many shafts/handles for the tools? - None. He bought 1k shafts for 1s. 

Both are cited in the guide.

[Wargasm 1,928]

It doesn't matter what is cited in the guide.  If he is not taking the time to create the materials himself, then he is lying about how long it takes to make rares. 

[Eobersig 1,006]

...

 

My whole point with this topic that is perhaps overlooked, is that just from playing the game improving tools for hours in the normal way, Rare's as a perk from playing the game should appear occasionally. ..

 

They do, if you do a few things right. They don't if you stack all the odds against you.

 

Okay. here it goes. Note that this is all no secret knowledge of some kind but easily deduced from the game mechanics.

• To get a rare you first need a drum roll. No way around it, doesn't matter at all whether it's through creating or imping. Without a drum roll you're nowhere. Thus people try to increase their chance for a drum roll. The rarity window of your village does that. It increases the chance that you get a drum roll. Note that this mechanic is completely the same for creating or imping an item.

   

• Now lets say you get a drum roll, a moment of inspiration. That action can result in a rare item, equally no matter whether the action is creation or imping. However, that action can also fail - and you won't get a rare item from a crafting failure. And here's why some people think rares are better gotten through creation: these items are created at lower ql, and it's less likely that the action fails.

   

• In imping however, especially for those people using lower-ql tools and grinding for skill the chance of a failure is quite high. That's why some people think that one gets less rare items by imping. Simply because it's more likely they have a crafting failure.

   

• And lastly, it also matters what item you create or improve. Different items do not have the same chance to go rare on a successful drum roll. The "complexer" (for want of a better word) the item is the less likely it will go rare. Case in point: practically every drum roll during mining (a very simple item) will produce a rare shard or ore, but only few drum rolls on, say, a knarr (a complex item) will produce a rare knarr. I suspect that all craftable items in Wurm have a percentage associated with them that describes the chance to go rare on a successful crafting action.

Thus to have good odds in producing a rare you want: a good rarity window bonus, doing something that has a low chance of a crafting failure, and an item that has a good spot on that "complexity" scale.

[MisterTeddy 284]

this should have been done when the mechanic was implemented

 

I can't speak for PvE, but this would actually make it worse on PvP where pretty much all established players have rare gear; this would just make it so newbies have an even harder time getting their hands on it without spending money

 

Rolf needs to learn that constant influx, regardless of how slow, eventually leads to accumulation when there is no outflow system in place (*cough* dragon armor)

[geode 292]

... snip ...

 

Never did I consider that Rare's were introduced into the game in other than a random mechanic which could not be manipulated by other players to their own advantage. And if this were found to be the case then the Developers would take action to prevent this system from being taken advantage of, as they have done in the past.

 

Of course I could be wrong. Perhaps I had best never brought this topic up. Yea, that's the ticket! Silence is golden and all that. Now where did that ostrich run off to?

 

Happy Trails

=Ayes=

 

This isn't meant as a troll post, just an observation of what you stated Ayes.

 

It has been impresson of Rolf that everything he adds to the game is intended to be taken advantage of by Players for their own benefit... even in greedy, selfserving, irritating, and apparent overpowered ways from the perspective of other Players. That is why he does not document things well, it is a purposeful method of introducing new features/content/items that he knows a few Players will figure out and run with it. He seems to gain pleasure from watching the show and seeing who figures out his hidden gems of opportunity.

 

So when new suff comes out or new ways to make money or gain victory are discovered, it surprises me not. Wurm's history is full of that kind of thing.

 

and silence is never golden, not imo.

Edited July 29, 2015 by geode

[KanePT 699]

Yeah, you know.  Bulk dealers, priests, rare creators, we're all the devil.

Obviously you don't know me. I have 3 priests, i've sold bulk items, i have traders, and i've sold gold coins. BUT i PUSH for the game to change to have healthier populations, whether or not i might lose "income".

I don't push for stuff to remain the same just because i want to sell my drake armor, or because i had this bugged item that now might be worth a fortune, and i don't want it wiped from the database.

I don't keep trying to "threaten" the devs with the end of the world if they make the game easier for new players because then my lvl 90+ skills aren't so special.

I'm not saying that the devs can't fix a issue or balance a problem THAT IS REAL (not like Strongwall was a bug, now its fixed and oops those few MR guys just won 300€ worth of loot after pming a dev to help out in the raid because of this "bug" only the dev and they knew about) because now some people might lose something.

Well news flash, there's precedent to that. If they don't fix it is for one of two reasons: they stopped giving a damn, or the pop is so low that even the possibility of that minority having a hissy fit could make the game shut down.

[MaurizioAM 919]

I like the idea of rares being made by improving. +1

[Raybarg 437]

My whole point with this topic that is perhaps overlooked, is that just from playing the game improving tools for hours in the normal way, Rare's as a perk from playing the game should appear occasionally. This would then make the Rare system rewarding to everyone rather than to just the few who fine tune all their actions and conditions to produce the most of them.

 

 

This is how it works.

 

I know because I dont try to intentionally create rares, apart from few attempts quite long time ago. 90% of my rares been produced while imping items. I imp alot.

 

Within our alliance there is new players who trough normal gameplay get occasional rares trough creations or imps. With my help we have turned those rares into Epic kind of tools to feel sense of completion in their toolset, or heavy impact in their purse.

 

Just because it is POSSIBLE to find a way to create rares the most efficient of ways does not mean the system is broken. When it comes to MMO games where thousands of players are involved around a specific lucrative mechanism, it is BOUND to happen that there IS few of those players who have what it takes to research and reverse engineer how the system works and come to a conclusion which method produces the best outcome. This is INAVOIDABLE and does happen in every game.

 

Usually attempts to prevent the most efficient usage of single mechanism will lead into a restriction that affects everyone.

 

<ramble>Trough normal gameplay one can get few rares a day, if you start restricting how many rares can be produced per day, you also restrict those normal gameplay items so instead of producing few they would produce one. Someone who knows what they are doing can produce maybe five and with new restriction would only produce one and proceed to find a way to understand the conditions which they must follow to make that one rare per day as fast as possible, then multiply this process by having more toons... as a simple imaginary scenario. Restrict it by IP, they use proxy. I dont know, going to the path of restrictions to me seems the way Themeparks work. Wurm does not appear as such game to me and thats why it has some less digested problems within. Rarity system issues is not less digested, it is well understood. Randomness is that way. Games work with dice. Imagine that instead of making the "item at hand" rare as it is now, the system would produce a "rare bone" in your inventory, which would be sold for big money at first and soon they would be everywhere. Ppl complain theres too many rare pickaxes, that is same problem as "rare bone" into your inventory problem.</ramble>

Edited July 31, 2015 by Raybarg

[Ayes 3,715]

It has been impresson of Rolf that everything he adds to the game is intended to be taken advantage of by Players for their own benefit... even in greedy, selfserving, irritating, and apparent overpowered ways from the perspective of other Players. That is why he does not document things well, it is a purposeful method of introducing new features/content/items that he knows a few Players will figure out and run with it. He seems to gain pleasure from watching the show and seeing who figures out his hidden gems of opportunity.

 

So when new suff comes out or new ways to make money or gain victory are discovered, it surprises me not. Wurm's history is full of that kind of thing.

 

I have to disagree with you here concerning Rares. I highly doubt Rolf took into consideration all the possible ways to enhance the creation of Rares, or even gave it much of a second thought. More like he just added the system to the random generator and added some percentage to it. Done! Then it was players who added their bonus capabilities to the equation, such as deed bonus manipulation, nutrition level boost, PoK bonus, drum roll notification, etc., noting the effects of all these abilities on Rare creation chance.

 

Then when the drum roll was abused to enhance Rare creation success it was adjusted. Things like this are called WoP, windows of opportunity, that when it is found they are circumventing the intended purpose of some system, they are removed or adjusted (nerfed some would say). Rare upon *creation* seems to fit the bill of an unintended WoP pertaining to Rares, which is why I pointed it out with this topic and that it should be adjusted (reduced) to at least an equal percentage as Rare to *improvement*.

 

Yes, I agree that Wurm history is full of these WoP's and they are usually dealt with when the significance of their advantage (abuse?) is realized. Possibly it may happen in this instance as well, who knows.

 

=Ayes=

[FranktheTank 1,901]

while were at it can we make useless rare rolls do something?

 

When I farm a tile and get a rare roll can I just get full harvest regardless of growth?

[Nicrolis 980]

rare rolls while farming give +1 to the harvest