Game Developers, Wake Up About Rare *Creation* Mechanics

[Becket 843]

Really Ayes you have nothing better to do?

 

 What the hell do you care if someone spends their whole day creating the same item over and over trying to get a rare one, personally I do not see it

any different then mining all day trying to find a vg or utmost vein.

[Raybarg 441]

I made something like 1200x of oak spindles, wanted to get rare oak spindle. Kept sacrificing them every time altar filled up. ~1200 does not even sound that crazy.

 

Wish I would have made a rare oak spindle, still using normal.

 

Its such a shame I put that old rare oak spindle to a forge to be imped, into the forge which was later lit. That spindle was a gift from a friend.

 

Its so unfair.

[Miretta 1,415]

maybe they should just rename rare into "fancy" that way it fits better with the rest of that same system

[Aeris 3,752]

Is the database even an issue? I just checked the item count via server graphs on wiki and "Number of non-coin, non-bodypart items" is steady on almost all servers, some servers show a small increase, some are even in decline. Xanadu is exception. So it seems, that the rare farmers have learned about the secrets of trash heaps and/or sacrificing.. I don't think it is a big issue.

The database is really not an issue, it's the item count on the servers that is. The database is just a bunch of text strings while the items are something that require server power in order to exist. The bulk bins were introduced to lessen the server load by making items that are reachable on the servers nothing more than a bunch of text strings in a bin. The item count causes lag, which is why the server sweeps of resources (shards, logs, dirt) was introduced in 2009, why decay has been upped a gazillion times, why random updates suddenly hit everything with massive decay and so on and so on.

If anything I'd consider the heavy meal decay a much worse threat than anything. First they make us heavily dependent on nutrition in order not to get less skillgain and then they up the meal decay to outrageous speed to prevent meals from clogging up the server. I mean come on, really? I just started doing waaaaaaay more meals since the decay tick never damages all of them.

On the topic though I don't really understand the rare argument from a market standpoint since I think gameplay is more important *shrugs*

[Ecrir 887]

The current system encourages abnormal and somewhat weird gameplay and is easily abusable by creating a ton of (non-prem) alts. I feel that the optimal method for getting a rare should be either of the following two:

1) Normal gameplay. In other words, the chance of getting one while imping an item should be equal to the chance when creating an item, so that the system doesn't encourage you to do one over the other. Thus the most optimal way to get a rare would be to play as you always do, it would not encourage you to start spam creating items.

2) More challenging than normal gameplay. In other words, it should require a special procedure which is much harder than just creating or imping an item (and harder does not mean a higher chance of failure, instead see it as a process requiring multiple steps).

[Ayes 3,715]

I haven't kept a tally but I am fairly certain that of the rares i have made, all but 2 went rare during imping. My very first pair of plate leggings was created rare. That was over a year ago. I made a crate that was rare on creation. That was whatever day it was they were released. 

 

Actually the exact opposite of this (Rare upon creation far surpasses Rare upon improving) is what brought this situation to the forefront of my attention. How? Over the past several months I have been working on raising blacksmithing from the mid 40's to now 90 by the usual method of improving items. In all those thousands of improvement actions I have never once improved an item to Rare.

 

Now contrast this with those players who focus on creating Rares with the intent solely to sell them with the create and trash method. Since this method is preferred by those with the intent to sell them I can understand why they would come up with all sorts of reasons to defend the current status of Rare creation; but, on the other hand it is not really fair treatment to those who improve items for skill or use enhancement.

 

The current way Rare creation functions it is a system that mainly benefits the create and destroy grinding money makers. Which is why I bring this up as in need of a drastic adjustment to more benefit the players who actually play the game for their enjoyment rather than just to make coins for conversion and export. A poorly structured system currently that seems to at least be in harmony with promoting the game as a possible money maker in order to draw and retain more players to it; thus, this old common theme emerges in this Rare creation system and is defended by the same mentality.

 

More of the same really, in a slightly altered form. Why not focus on benefiting the players who actually improve items for their own and others use, as well as attempting to raise their skill with this Rare system? The current Rare creation system does the exact opposite of this and focuses those benefits on those who attempt to create Rares for the sole purpose of self profits in coins. A fact that should at least be faced, I would think.

 

=Ayes=

[Amadee 1,543]

I would not like to see changes made to the current rares system for a couple of reasons. 

 

First, I am always very much against removing anything fun from any game, if the fun does not directly harm anyone else. Games are for fun, and many people seem to consider rares as a sort of mini game.  For me (on my personal list of lists, hehe),  this falls under the category of things that people think other people shouldn't be allowed to do.

 

Personally I don't have fun trying to get a rare, but a lot of people do enjoy it.  And I see it as harmless. It's been around long enough now, and there are enough rares floating around that most people know the "rare" tag doesn't really mean rare, but rather *enhanced* or *special* anyway. And I do enjoy having the few rare things I have.

 

Tweaking things, rather than removing things, is of course a different matter which gets to my second reason for not liking the idea of a change to the way rares currently work. 

 

As with all things Wurm, we have to be very careful what we ask for since so many things are interrelated and entwined with so many other things.  The last thing we need is another system change that treats a sprained ankle with a full body cast.  Especially when it involves removing or hindering an activity that many find enjoyable.

[Wargasm 1,928]

In all those thousands of improvement actions I have never once improved an item to Rare.

 

Then you did something wrong.

[Arronicus 638]

A properly designed soft cap wouldn't punish anybody except the people that are abusing the current roll on creation system.

 

 

And therein lies the prime difference in opinions. You believe the system is being abused, many of us do not. Even though I personally do not spam creation to get rares, as I do not care much about them, nor do I try to pay for my sub through silver, I really don't see the harm in others doing so, especially if they are indeed using trash heaps or smelting pots to where there is indeed no database issue.

 

The previous rare creation system was abused because people would create stop create, and thus not lose any mats till they got rares. The current system is just fine because it now takes a ton of work to produce rares consistently.

[asdf 297]

I too would prefer the rare chance be moved (as much as possible) to improving, for one, single, reason...  database size.

For the database just add a smelt keybind

HOW MANY TIMES DO WE NEED TO SUGGEST IT

[KanePT 699]

Some of us thank god he hasn't.

The ones that don't want the game to grow and have a healthy population? That use the game as their personal piggy bank? Those of us?

[Wargasm 1,928]

Yeah, you know.  Bulk dealers, priests, rare creators, we're all the devil.

[Hula_Girl 266]

+1

[joedobo 1,187]

I been spamming pickaxe creation for about a week. I got a f2p alt with 20 blacksmithing making pickaxe heads and attaching them to the shaft. I use Joe to make the shafts as those need to be high ql to increase the alt's creation chance.

 

I smelt all the pickaxes I make back into lumps. And those lumps get turned into more pickaxe heads. All my shafts are stored in bsb and I take out about 40 at a time for creation.

 

I suspect that making bricks or mortar is better money for your time. Although, delivery of a rare is so much easier.

 

 

Anyway ----> NO nerfs <---- please!  A buff to imping so the rare roll chance is the same as for creation would be good.

[Edge 141]

If anything theres not enough rares. They are still way overpriced for the benefit they provide, simply because they are so....rare.

[Dairuka 888]

And therein lies the prime difference in opinions. You believe the system is being abused, many of us do not. Even though I personally do not spam creation to get rares, as I do not care much about them, nor do I try to pay for my sub through silver, I really don't see the harm in others doing so, especially if they are indeed using trash heaps or smelting pots to where there is indeed no database issue.

 

The previous rare creation system was abused because people would create stop create, and thus not lose any mats till they got rares. The current system is just fine because it now takes a ton of work to produce rares consistently.

 

I'll remember that in the upcoming Nahjo nerf thread.

[Ayes 3,715]

Then you did something wrong.

No. What I did was experience a flawed system of Rare creation that highly favors the trash item creators for their profits. Even if not giving improving items a benefit of creating Rares more frequent to trash item creation, it should at least have an equal basis to it. I believe the current disproportion was a result of removing the old previous Rare creation warning, that guess what, these same types of players were once again using to their profit making advantages.

 

Yeah, you know.  Bulk dealers, priests, rare creators, we're all the devil.

Naw, not even close to the devil, just *some* of them shortsighted people who will bleed the game dry for their profits and then move on to the next with no further concern when the money is not there to support their "enjoyment". Sure, there should be some ability to earn coins within the game but to make that one's focus and advocate for imbalanced systems that contribute and assist in this only diminishes the game.

 

Happy Trails!

=Ayes=

[Wargasm 1,928]

What you fail to remember is that the drum rol occured at the beginning of the action, allowing someone to stand there for an hour with one pickaxe head and one shaft and stop the action before it finishes if there was no drumroll.

 

The "rare market" was a concern at this point because no effort was required to gather materials.  You didn't have to go mine thousands of iron lumps, create tons of weapon/tool heads and then chop down enough trees to make enough logs to make enough shafts to make enough handles...you get the point.  Once it was changed, the community was happy.  The developers were satisfied that despite people knowing how the rare window worked, that effort was now required to make rares. 

 

Nothing has changed since then, and creation rares are just as fine as they were when this change was made.  The only thing that has changed is a half-hazard understanding of people who are just now beginning to grasp the concept of how this works, thanks to someone having made a guide to explain it.

[KunAlt 844]

Rares are still rares, i know a lot of people (and i mean a lot) without rare pickaxes, or shovels or any fancy ones.

 

Sure maybe they don't wort 25s each, but the price is still fine, and as long as there is demand they sell easy.

 

The only people crying about are those that paid high prices in hopes of making profit later and see the potential profit going down, but reworking the mechanic just because some people choose the wrong investment portfolio gets a huge -1.

[Eobersig 1,006]

Actually the exact opposite of this (Rare upon creation far surpasses Rare upon improving) is what brought this situation to the forefront of my attention. How? Over the past several months I have been working on raising blacksmithing from the mid 40's to now 90 by the usual method of improving items. In all those thousands of improvement actions I have never once improved an item to Rare.

 

...

[bangzuvelis 549]

i dont see any problems in creating rare things. in every single game ive ever played there were gold farmers, so let it be. it gives a nice shift to economy. it gives a significant price drop and all you need is to be smart enough not to overpay for a "rare" rare item. in the end rare items become useless when you reach top of the skill (yeah, ok, they save your time as you dont need to reimp or recast them so often). 

[Evilvision 301]

The ones that don't want the game to grow and have a healthy population? That use the game as their personal piggy bank? Those of us?

[Fireflyb 920]

Why not just change the rarity mechanics to something like this:

 

I create a longsword.  Dice roll of # between 1 and l0,00l (really big #)

 

If roll is 1337 then item is rare.

 

In all seriousness, why not just a simple percent?  0.001% (or w/e) chance on each action that item will turn rare.

 

Or, if Rolf prefers, some super-complicated RNG hell dice roll that changes the % based on RL blood pressure or somin...

[Wargasm 1,928]

Here's a better idea.  Leave it the way it is.

 

And I have a question for all you +1's screaming about this so called "drain on the economy".  If this is going to cause such a drain on the economy, how come it hasn't yet?  The ability to create rares in it's current form is nothing new, and IIRC the drum roll change was over a year ago.  So how is the economy going to tank suddenly if it's been this way for over a year now?

 

It's not.  People will always want rare tools, and one person publishing a guide isn't going to change that.

Edited July 28, 2015 by Wargasm

[Niki 2,278]

I agree no changes really need to happen, focus efforts on actual bug fixes.