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Ayes

Game Developers, Wake Up About Rare *Creation* Mechanics

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Some of us thank god he hasn't.

Most of us thank god he hasn't

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  1. Rarity starts at "rare" when improving, if this isn't always the case. Supreme and fantastic are "upgrades" to "rare".

Creation rarity removed. 

Current no-imp tools (whetstones, pelts, etc) have "improve" actions for the new rarity system. See below for this idea.

Rarity chances are not simply random. They are based upon a person's actual skill at improving an item. Once a chance happens, RNG the success as it is now. Why? Because those who have put the time and effort into being a master at their trade deserve the reward of being more able to produce rare items.

 

"Improving" of non-imp tools only:

  1. Improving them reduces the weight by a small amount per action. Think of it as chipping away bad pieces of a whetstone or cutting away tattered parts of your pelt.

Improving actions, when they fail, do not increase damage. They simply reduce the weight a small amount.

When successful, the quality is not changed. Damage is reduced and a rarity chance is rolled for.

 

Why remove creation rarity from all items? It would shift the economy a little bit, I think. It's not uncommon for people to "bank" rare dirt/rock and simply sacrifice them instead of finding good quality meals. This would also mean that you'd want to revise the way meals take damage and provide for better ways to preserve meals for trade. The ability to "imp" damage off of non-repairable tools makes sense. It's currently an area that is dominated by priests. That said, Mend should be tweaked to cost more favor and remove less quality, or keep the quality reduction the same but remove all damage. This means that you'd still prefer finding a priest, as "imping" damage off these tools would eventually wear them down to nothing, but a priest could preserve them for longer.

 

Of course, these ideas are personal opinions and possibly flawed by human nature and personal bias. :)

Edited by Keenan
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I don't see the problem. Anyone can do it, people who buy them know how common they are and obviously still decide it's worth paying someone else to do rather than doing it themselves. I don't see it any different to any of the other ways of making money from doing things hundreds of times. Hell, it's probably easier to make money just making mortar.

^

Saved me the trouble of typing it. That's exactly how I feel, how is this a problem?

-1

 

 

 

  1. Rarity chances are not simply random. They are based upon a person's actual skill at improving an item. Once a chance happens, RNG the success as it is now. Why? Because those who have put the time and effort into being a master at their trade deserve the reward of being more able to produce rare items.

As a new player, rares not only provide a satisfying sense of discovery and accomplishment, but also serve as a practical means of restoring your nutrition when good ql meals are not available. By skewing rares to be produced more often by the 'skilled elite', you are further challenging a players ability to get into the market, without intense grinding. This would I believe force players to grind out skills even more so than they have to now. Something about game mechanics like this being changed to favour the older players and penalize the newer (from the current status quo) just feels wrong to me. 

Edited by Arronicus
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Just trying to understand...

What you don't like about it is:

  • Too many rares are created, thereby making the items no longer rare.

The system uses too simple and predictable a mechanic, thereby allowing people to guarantee themselves rares rather than having it be an off-chance surprise.

 

Yes, both of these points are tied together; however, the ability to create Rare items upon *creation* of a new item far surpasses the ability to *improve* an item to a Rare. This is why players who want to "create" Rare items to sell to others have switched over to this more reliant and predictable system.

 

Since the ability to *improve* items to Rare was nerfed, why then is this item creation tactic so much more superior in results? This goes back to my OP point of removing the Rare upon creation mechanic. So on second thought, better the Developers balance these two different ways of creating Rares, than just removing the far more advantageous Rare upon *creation* mechanic.

 

A bad imbalance of these two Rare creation systems exists now, which is what I guess draws my attention to the Rare upon *creation* mechanic being taken advantage of and this punishes those who are actually doing the more valid function of *improving* items. I see the Rare system as more of a random bonus from playing the game, rather than a setup to promote endless grinding of items to get Rares. Just seems to make more sense to me in terms of a Rare reward.

 

=Ayes=

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I too would prefer the rare chance be moved (as much as possible) to improving, for one, single, reason...  database size.

 

spending 2 hours spamming creates to get a rare, vs spending 2 hrs improving items to get a rare...  at the end, you end up with many many many fewer items when improving to get rares. 

 

every item in the database increases lag, and wurm already has a huge database on most servers. 

 

we got bulk bins and such to cut down on the number of raw mats stored in the database, and now we seem to be trying very hard to replace those shards, logs, dirts etc with horseshoes, pickaxes, and needles, (and all the other tools that people want to be rare) balance (without lowering the overall chance) the ability to get rares to be slightly in favor of imping the items that can be imped, and players will switch over to that method, reducing the number of items created and left to rot. (not everyone is motivated to use trash bins or sell the items to the tokens)

Has any data ever been released on how many keys and locks sit on the ground/in the ocean from how many years?

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waaah waah *insert whining about economy* 


 


This is WURM online, not ECONOMY online


 


 


 


Stop bashing on people play styles, if they really want to no life it for hours on hours, so be it. Who are you to judge how people play a game?


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It's not like this is some easy cheat. It's a LOT of work for some reward, like digging dirt.


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As a new player, rares not only provide a satisfying sense of discovery and accomplishment, but also serve as a practical means of restoring your nutrition when good ql meals are not available. By skewing rares to be produced more often by the 'skilled elite', you are further challenging a players ability to get into the market, without intense grinding. This would I believe force players to grind out skills even more so than they have to now. Something about game mechanics like this being changed to favour the older players and penalize the newer (from the current status quo) just feels wrong to me. 

 

And on the flip side, what is the point of those of us who have put our time and effort into paying for the game and playing the game? This is not a game where everyone enters on a level playing field. 

 

That said, I do agree that it should be easier for a new player to be more self-sufficient in terms of food. Relying on rares dug out of the ground just seems a little silly to me. Instead of rare dirt, grant coin like foraging perhaps? Or perhaps grant a high QL gem, or some other tangible item that can actually be traded or sold.

 

My point is that it makes absolutely no sense that a new player, especially someone who hasn't actually supported the game in any way, can crank out rares just because they're spamming buttons. A rare item should be the reward at the end of a long and careful process of bettering said item. Not luck of the lottery.

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I haven't kept a tally but I am fairly certain that of the rares i have made, all but 2 went rare during imping. My very first pair of plate leggings was created rare. That was over a year ago. I made a crate that was rare on creation. That was whatever day it was they were released. 


 


Based on my own personal experience, if I am going to try for a rare anything, I am going to imp it. The bonus to that is that they are worth more when you sac a huge pile of the things than they are at under 10QL. Selling to the token would take long for the 7 irons.  :lol:


 


EDiT: Yes, Magnaron takes out my trash for me. 


Edited by Audrel

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Since the ability to *improve* items to Rare was nerfed, why then is this item creation tactic so much more superior in results? This goes back to my OP point of removing the Rare upon creation mechanic. So on second thought, better the Developers balance these two different ways of creating Rares, than just removing the far more advantageous Rare upon *creation* mechanic.

 

A bad imbalance of these two Rare creation systems exists now, which is what I guess draws my attention to the Rare upon *creation* mechanic being taken advantage of and this punishes those who are actually doing the more valid function of *improving* items. I see the Rare system as more of a random bonus from playing the game, rather than a setup to promote endless grinding of items to get Rares. Just seems to make more sense to me in terms of a Rare reward.

Its better because you get almost no skill and mostly worthless items out of spamming creation for rares.

Its in no way punishing people who are improving items, they are actually gaining skill and creating items of value.

 

If you really saw it as a random bonus from playing(which is still is even if you are just spamming out items), why would you care about other people spamming creation for rares?

 

You only care because it effects the "economy", which is always a terrible basis for any changes.

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=Ayes=

Always looking for attention... BTW no likes on your post should tell you something.

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i think the rare system is fine now ...could it be improved , yes sure . as with most things ..in wurm.


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This looks like a job for soft caps.


 


[spell Effect] Creation Exhaustion: You have just created a rare, supreme or fantastic item. Your bonus window suffers a -10s penalty for 24h.


[spell Effect] Artistry Block: You have just created 3 rare, supreme or fantastic items within 24 hours. Your bonus window suffers a -20s penalty for 24h.


Edited by Dairuka

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I don't think rare farmers are making enough items to significantly effect the servers like many other crafts do.  All the ones I've spoken to about their methods use a smelting pot afterwards to reuse the metal.


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I too would prefer the rare chance be moved (as much as possible) to improving, for one, single, reason...  database size.

 

spending 2 hours spamming creates to get a rare, vs spending 2 hrs improving items to get a rare...  at the end, you end up with many many many fewer items when improving to get rares. 

 

every item in the database increases lag, and wurm already has a huge database on most servers. 

 

we got bulk bins and such to cut down on the number of raw mats stored in the database, and now we seem to be trying very hard to replace those shards, logs, dirts etc with horseshoes, pickaxes, and needles, (and all the other tools that people want to be rare) balance (without lowering the overall chance) the ability to get rares to be slightly in favor of imping the items that can be imped, and players will switch over to that method, reducing the number of items created and left to rot. (not everyone is motivated to use trash bins or sell the items to the tokens)

From that perspective i would be forced to agree with you. Simply change it over to imping rather then creating but keep the same chance in effect.

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This looks like a job for soft caps.

 

[spell Effect] Creation Exhaustion: You have just created a rare, supreme or fantastic item. Your bonus window suffers a -10s penalty for 24h.

[spell Effect] Artistry Block: You have just created 3 rare, supreme or fantastic items within 24 hours. Your bonus window suffers a -20s penalty for 24h.

 

./Sarcasm

 

Yes!  FANTASTIC idea.  Lets make it so the only rare roll I get is the first of the usual 10 I get while farming.  Or maybe that rare dirt that I have absolutely no use for.

 

/endsarcasm

 

The system is fine the way it is.  The part of this that I find really sad is that half of the people complaining about creation rares have no idea how much work is

involved.  The mats, the time, the skill to make the tool, the sacrificing mats, the tedious nature of actually making the items...  it's fine the way it is. 

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<personal opinion>

How about just making rare on creation and rare on improve chances equal? On the other hand, I am not sure how this change could affect supreme and fantastic items, probably some tweaks would be needed.

</personal opinion>

Sounds good, i must have done a hundreds rare improves where nothing happend and its seirously pissing me off when i see ppl spamming so easily! -

 

Saying that, the market would overflow even more with rares (not like it isnt already...). Perhaps increase the imp chance and lower the creation chance to even out..

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Is the database even an issue? I just checked the item count via server graphs on wiki and "Number of non-coin, non-bodypart items" is steady on almost all servers, some servers show a small increase, some are even in decline. Xanadu is exception. So it seems, that the rare farmers have learned about the secrets of trash heaps and/or sacrificing.. I don't think it is a big issue.

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./Sarcasm

 

Yes!  FANTASTIC idea.  Lets make it so the only rare roll I get is the first of the usual 10 I get while farming.  Or maybe that rare dirt that I have absolutely no use for.

 

/endsarcasm

 

The system is fine the way it is.  The part of this that I find really sad is that half of the people complaining about creation rares have no idea how much work is

involved.  The mats, the time, the skill to make the tool, the sacrificing mats, the tedious nature of actually making the items...  it's fine the way it is. 

 

Design is a process that begins with a single idea, and evolves through constructive criticism.

 

One could further refine the idea by going so far as to flag certain rare rolls as "junk rolls" and then exclude the "junk rolls" from the debuff pool. What we would consider junk roll would include things produced through farming, digging, botanizing, foraging, etc.

 

Of course, it could always be designed in the same manner as the sleeping bonus. (It's really a nerf, but it looks like a buff) - Ninja nerf the bonus timer by 10s, and then give everybody a visible +10s bonus timer buff that is removed after the successful creation of a non-junk roll rare item. The net-result would be a neutral gain, and most people wouldn't know the difference.

 

Of course, we could always just leave it as is, pretend that it's not a flawed system, and wait for the inevitable failure rates fix*** for creation rolls to match the improvement rolls because there are people abusing the creation system. The failure rate fix is an easy way for them to stop people abusing the creation system, and it will come out of the blue as a 'bug fix' without warning if we don't head it off early. Hell, I'll even archive this post, and use it in a future thread when the ninja-nerf arrives.

 

A properly designed soft cap wouldn't punish anybody except the people that are abusing the current roll on creation system.

 

***The high chance to fail on a rare roll for improvement is a 'feature' that punishes everybody. It detracts from the excitement people get from hearing the drum roll, and often makes people turn off the drum rolls entirely out of frustration.

Edited by Dairuka
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It is obvious that a person who make rares would be smelting or saccing the created regular items. If there are 'few' people who hoard them, I'm sure they'd realize it is better to just make use of them instead, in a short time.


 


Making a rare tool is not always guaranteed no matter how much time you put into it. While imping or bulk making however, every single item you create is of value and your skills improve much much more, making it easier and faster to make more in the same ammount of time.


 


If you think rare making is very easy, you could always do it as well and nobody is stopping you.


 


Rares don't even have the properties to be fit for a 'rare' item anyways. A regular enchanted item is far more superior to a rare item in most cases and a high enchant regular item is superior to rare low enchant. Also, there is supreme (the properties are also more fitting to be a rare item) to be the 'rare' when rare becomes too common. Even if supreme somehow becomes a bit usual to be rare, there is always the fantastic. Although I'd prefer there to be more levels of rarity and more colours, it is how it is.

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I like the idea of lowering creation rare chances and raising imping rare chances.


I've spent hours imping items only to get a couple rare rolls that gave nothing, but I spam out items for an hour or two and get 2 or 3 rares. It doesn't feel right, I shouldn't have to spam out items to get rares and I should be getting those rare rolls on imping.


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People do it this way because when they succesfully create an item while having a rare roll, they have a 100% chance of the item turning rare.


 


Chance of making a rare while improving items? 10%?

Edited by Bittereinder

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I think the current rare chance on creation and improvement should be equalised, and maybe upped a bit across the board.


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rares don't give THAT huge amount of bonus, that it would be actually worth it to restrain anything, in my opinion O.o


 


and if people actually grind for it, by creating alot of items, then I think they have well earned their rares....they literally grinded for it. (and creating usually takes alot more ressources than imping does also)


 


and regarding the "rareness" of items, there is 2 more stages: supreme and fantastic and if you look around who is selling those, you can see that the number is drastically lower than rares.

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Are you only noticing this now? Rares on creation used to be insanely broken. There was a bug where many players generated a very large number of rares and it was stealth patched. What you see now is the fixed system that has been touched by developers.


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