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joedobo

So Wurm has density now?

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I read this in patch notes,


 


"Adjusted volumes for shingles. Also made slate shingles slightly less dense."


 


I always thought weight, volume and density aren't realistic in Wurm.  Wurm things are intangible programing objects. They definitely have volume, weight, and apparently some hidden length, width, and height measurements. Although, there isn't a density property for objects as far as I know. Yes, a person could indirectly infer a kinda density measurement. But such acts just overly complicate things. It would be far better to just say what changed.


 


Wouldn't it be better to just say...slate shingle are now # ltr and # kg?


 


Or maybe Wurm didn't want us to know the specifics so it used density as an indirect way to inform us about a change without actually giving the specifics, idk.


 


Anyway, Wurm please don't confuse me anymore then I already am.


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http://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/127238-general-balance-discussion/page-6?p=1310466#entry1310466

Well after a quick glance on the Cauldron vs Oven issue, I think it might be that the cauldron is simply bigger in two dimensions then the oven's container volume would allow. It's not by much, 10 cm by the looks of it.

Back when I was working on adding the load/unload stuff I made it possible to separate the size of an object from how much volume they could contain, so it's possible to re-size the ovens container volume without affecting where the oven will fit when loading it. Or if we wanted to, shrink the Cauldron without changing how much it can contain.

As for the ruler idea, if anything that could help find those items still out there that have very incorrect values, I have encountered a few of those before and changed those to more expected values. (Most of those was incredibly huge when I found them, like the Knarr was a couple of kilometers long.)

http://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/127238-general-balance-discussion/page-6?p=1310492#entry1310492

Yes I meant the oven's container volume, the cauldron is is bigger then the ovens container in 2 out of 3 dimensions so it won't fit.

In order for any item to fit within any container it must pass both the size checks and the volume check, in some cases it makes little sense, since if it had been in real life you could have rotated the item around and made it fit, but in wurm the width is checked against the width of the container and so on, so if one fails the entire check fails.

Well the debugging side of things with rulers was just my first thought when I read your suggestion, it could as you say also give players more understanding of why something don't fit.

The biggest problem from my perspective with items and sizes is actually the items that can be combined, they can often scale in rather odd ways when combining them together.

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I think they just substituted "density" for "weight" in this case.


 


I could be wrong though.


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Density is mass over volume


 


Wurm objects have both


 


You can see the volume in a BSB and exact weight in the crafting window


 


????


 


I do not understand the confusion...


 


Although, I am pretty sure they refer to the volume being increased as I doubt they changed the weight - still that counts as a density change...


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Density is mass over volume

 

Wurm objects have both

Wurm objects do have volume and weight properties. But they don't have density. Density is an INFERED measurement and the basis for the inference is using real life physics which don't really work in Wurm.  A density property of objects was not changed because it doesn't exists. What was change is a combination of weight or volume. 

 

More confusion thank you. Technically its not the volume property. It was two of the three measurement properties of the oven's container that were too small for the cauldron's outside measurements.

 

 

....more people who continue to apply real life physics to intangible programing objects. Objects frankly don't have the interconnected relationships we see in real life. I'm not saying Wurm objects should either because that would be a waste of time to make it all work.

 

 

I think they just substituted "density" for "weight" in this case.

 

I could be wrong though.

kinda my point. It is confusing.

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I have a wood shingle and a slate shingle. They are both the same dimensions. But the slate shingle weights more because it has a higher density. But I gotta ask you. Does it really matter? It's a program that has stuff that have no relationship to the real world so they can make anything as dense as they want. Hey, they have Unicorns right?  :P


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I have a wood shingle and a slate shingle. They are both the same dimensions. But the slate shingle weights more because it has a higher density. But I gotta ask you. Does it really matter? It's a program that has stuff that have no relationship to the real world so they can make anything as dense as they want. Hey, they have Unicorns right?  :P

 

1. we don't actually know that the measurements are the same between the the two. These are hidden object properties.

2. we don't know if the graphics of stuff is a direct link to the three hidden measurements (length, width, height).

3. We don't know if volume is actually calculated using the three dimensions.

I suspect they are all independent of each other. I have no problem with that mind you. It is that I think using terms like density are potentially confusing.

 

 

It only matters because referring to measurements that don't exist in game forces people to guess. Guesses aren't as helpful as certainty. One of the biggest problems with players not understanding why things don't fit is from confusion and ignorance about the process. Tossing out words, like density, that infer certain relationships that don't' actually exist will add to the confusion.

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Wurm objects do have volume and weight properties. But they don't have density. 

 

The moment anything has volume and mass, it has a density. Just like if you know the 3D dimensions, that object becomes a volume that can be calculated mathematically.

 

I know where you are heading with this but you don't realize that density IS a RL measurement, there is no way they can calculate it differently in this game, and if they do, they wouldn't call it density. The word 'density' itself represents the convention of mass over volume, irrespective of where it is found (RL or game)

 

Yes, there are items like crates where density is ignored. But the objects have density nonetheless.

 

I am sorry, but you are splitting hairs here

Edited by Thorakkanath

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I am sorry, but you are splitting hairs here

 

 

I think that's the point of the topic. I don't think the OP is really... dense... enough to not realize what the dev who wrote that meant.

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The moment anything has volume and mass, it has a density. Just like if you know the 3D dimensions, that object becomes a volume that can be calculated mathematically.

 

I know where you are heading with this but you don't realize that density IS a RL measurement, there is no way they can calculate it differently in this game, and if they do, they wouldn't call it density. The word 'density' itself represents the convention of mass over volume, irrespective of where it is found (RL or game)

 

Yes, there are items like crates where density is ignored. But the objects have density nonetheless.

 

I am sorry, but you are splitting hairs here

1. Pretty sure an object's dimension have nothing to do with its volume...in Wurm. Only a dev can confirm this tho. "Available space", what we commonly refer to as volume, is simply a property. Each of its three measurements are also properties. But we don't know for sure that they are linked.

 

2.  You must misunderstand me. I'm aware of how density works in RL. I'd like to remind you that in an intangible programing sense it can act anyway it is told to.

 

 

The important message here is to not use metrics that don't apply in game. Tell use what was actually changed whether it be volume, measurements, or weight. 

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I think that's the point of the topic. I don't think the OP is really... dense... enough to not realize what the dev who wrote that meant.

got love people who have nothing to contribute and only chose to spend their time insulting.  I knew there was a good reason I got you on ignore ingame.

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Seeing such complaints of how Rolf words things just shows the density of some of our players.


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well it goes like this. Patch notes are added to a list of notes as code work progresses. patch notes are put in the news when servers are patched. 
in this case it was me who wrote about density. It will never happen again!!!!

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Seeing such complaints of how Rolf words things just shows the density of some of our players.

look another one, a person whose only purpose in posting is to insult.

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well it goes like this. Patch notes are added to a list of notes as code work progresses. patch notes are put in the news when servers are patched. 

in this case it was me who wrote about density. It will never happen again!!!!

Just trying to help. I guess "density" is better than nothing. I'm reading between the lines here.

 

I'm very sorry if you're upset in some way. It wasn't my intention. I hope you get where I'm coming from that it would be better to specifically say what was changed. 

 

Although, worse case cenario is you stop putting things in patch notes altogether.

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He's Swedish. Maybe he just used the wrong English word. The point is it has a smaller volume so more will fit in X container. It's what we wanted. It's what he gave us.


Edited by Audrel

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1. we don't actually know that the measurements are the same between the the two. These are hidden object properties.

2. we don't know if the graphics of stuff is a direct link to the three hidden measurements (length, width, height).

3. We don't know if volume is actually calculated using the three dimensions.

I suspect they are all independent of each other. I have no problem with that mind you. It is that I think using terms like density are potentially confusing.

 

 

It only matters because referring to measurements that don't exist in game forces people to guess. Guesses aren't as helpful as certainty. One of the biggest problems with players not understanding why things don't fit is from confusion and ignorance about the process. Tossing out words, like density, that infer certain relationships that don't' actually exist will add to the confusion.

 

Exactly my point. It doesn't matter because they can make any thing any way they want. Maybe it's magic. It's hilarious to see people argue about the physical properties of things that exist in a world that has magic, unicorns, nogumps, spirit guards that walk through solid objects, etc. But, if you are that concerned then you must feel that deviating too far breaks immersion for you, eh?

Edited by Clatius

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well it goes like this. Patch notes are added to a list of notes as code work progresses. patch notes are put in the news when servers are patched. 

in this case it was me who wrote about density. It will never happen again!!!!

We appreciate the feedback, please don't mind the nitpicking based on measurement nuances.

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Although, worse case cenario is you stop putting things in patch notes altogether.

No worries!

Oooh there was a patch note that wasn't written about how larger boats should now be easier to load from a few tiles away, and a bug was fixed also which range check when unloading crates.... :-)

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No worries!

Oooh there was a patch note that wasn't written about how larger boats should now be easier to load from a few tiles away, and a bug was fixed also which range check when unloading crates.... :-)

 

:huh: 

 

 Gotta love it.  :lol:

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No worries!

Oooh there was a patch note that wasn't written about how larger boats should now be easier to load from a few tiles away, and a bug was fixed also which range check when unloading crates.... :-)

Very nice, however it would seem unload and load ranges are inconsistent, I can unload crates from farther than I can load them. any idea if this is intentional? (knarr) The distance difference is like, 1/3 of a tile, so it might be unloading nuances. 

Either way, amazing, amazing fix.

Edited by Arronicus

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lol when i was reading that update I just knew that someone would explode over it


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I'm sure it's already been said, but I'm sure it was just a mistake. Let's not get all worked up over nothing. :)

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Very nice, however it would seem unload and load ranges are inconsistent, I can unload crates from farther than I can load them. any idea if this is intentional? (knarr) The distance difference is like, 1/3 of a tile, so it might be unloading nuances. 

Either way, amazing, amazing fix.

Haven't tested that but I will do. There is different ranges depending on type of ship to suit the model size though so row smaller boat has shorter unload distance than large boats.

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