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Artifact Changes Review

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be kinda cool maybe if artifacts had a different effect/use for different kingdoms who use it 


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be kinda cool maybe if artifacts had a different effect/use for different kingdoms who use it 

 

While it could be cool, I don't feel the dev team is capable of doing so in a balanced manner.  Valrei powers being based on gender is a good example of this.

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I am of the mind the damn things have caused so much drama removing them would be easiest. But .. if you want genuine feedback on how they work then seems to me the logical thing to do is take notes on who has the artifacts now. Spawn a set of artifacts for every kingdom and make them no drop items so they cant be taken. Let them get used by everybody for a month or so. Then you can get feedback from every kingdom and then remove them all and give the artifacts back to whoever had them prior to the test.


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Make artifacts decay.


Have them respawn with a server-wide beacon as to their location.


At this beacon, put a super-buffed avatar of the deity the artifact belongs to.


 


Kill the avatar, while fending off enemies.


Loot the artifact.


 


No hunting needed. Just surviving long enough to claim your reward.


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be kinda cool maybe if artifacts had a different effect/use for different kingdoms who use it 

This would seriously be awesome.

 

BL could corrupt WL artis and WL can have different effects with BL ones

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Pretty easy fix.


 


Current weapons are useless, they need a complete rethink (special abilities, quicker hit chance, maybe a little more dmg)


Orb needs reverting.


Eye needs slight buff


Rods use maybe like refresh or something


 


Make it so there is 1 more week of charges


Make it so can examine and see exact points


Maybe make recharges available less often?


Make it so using does not remove charges


 


With the quicker recharges, and artifacts more desirable i feel they will be a good feature to PvP servers.


Edited by Redd

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As there is very limited ability to give meaningful feedback to changes to artifacts by the cross section of pvp players, it would seem  the test server be a place to allow more testing by all parties and then feedback given otherwise it has turned into kvs k accusations, speculations, mistrust mess.  It otherwise seems premature to have a discussion on how the changes have played out with limited data, limited use.


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This is an official thread posted to garner feedback on the amended changes to artifact affects.  Posts that don't directly related to that request will be removed and  risk potential further action. Please post thoughtfully and constructively.


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As there is very limited ability to give meaningful feedback to changes to artifacts by the cross section of pvp players, it would seem  the test server be a place to allow more testing by all parties and then feedback given otherwise it has turned into kvs k accusations, speculations, mistrust mess.  It otherwise seems premature to have a discussion on how the changes have played out with limited data, limited use.

 

So are we actually going to see any changes on the test server? Can we get a timeframe on this?   Heck, we got a timeframe on when Rolf was supposed to open talks about the artifacts, and he missed that deadline months ago.    

 

I would love more testing features, and to be able to resolve the artifact discussion more constructively.  Meaning we do need more tools and testing apparatus to resolve the issue.   

Edited by Battlepaw
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So are we actually going to see any changes on the test server? Can we get a timeframe on this?   Heck, we got a timeframe on when Rolf was supposed to open talks about the artifacts, and he missed that deadline months ago.    

 

I would love more testing features, and to be able to resolve the artifact discussion more constructively.  Meaning we do need more tools and testing apparatus to resolve the issue.   

Your guess is as good as mine.  I read the post as you did, soliciting more feedback on the affect of the artifacts since they were amended to assess.  I'd like there to be some way to base changes on something more concrete and quantitative vs perceptual feelings when it comes to these items.  I"m guessing the feedback will be reviewed and perhaps that will be one of the outcomes.  

Edited by Bloodscythe
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In response to everyone saying that the test server is the way to go for artifact testing, after I thought about it some more, I don't think it is a reasonable solution to open it up to the whole playerbase and hope we get good results.  As it is, only 3 of the 12 artifacts would need to be tested on the server (the weapons) as everything else should, in theory, be clear-cut.  i.e. the charm charms animals, the ear gives you a gem and sleep bonus, etc.  Those shouldn't be something that need testing, the majority are already implemented correctly and i see the only things being changed are tweaks on how they currently work, not on brand-new spells or abilities.


 


So, onto artifact weapon testing, too much of pvp is RNG.  whether you hit someone in a hand or an arm vs. hitting them in the chest or legs and what QL the gear is, how often you miss, if you hit someone during a bad move, if you hit someone on a different elevation or how often you hit them, there are SO MANY variables involved, that to have 20-30 people all do their own testing, it'll just end up with a hodgepodge of various reports.  On top of that, i think we all know there will still be certain biases when the tests are performed by non-neutral people.


 


And finally, to set up the test server the way everyone is asking to have it done, in my opinion, is a huge undertaking.  Needing to give players gm-like powers restricted a certain amount, and also all the intricacies that goes with it, i.e. sets of drake/scale/plate all at a given QL  then making sure that there are GM's on-call to help with the test server, constantly make sure everything is set up right, etc - is going to add a lot of manhours to having the whole playerbase test artifacts as well as keep all the variables the same.


 


The test server worked for bridges, because it was for bug finding for a new feature.  To use it to test the % plus or minus of benefits between weapons is going to require someone or a small team to do it and compile results making sure all the numbers are valid, that the conditions don't change, and that it's tested significantly enough to be accurate data without statistical anomalies.


 


So, all that being said, i think we're all in agreement that artifacts need to be balanced and tested.  My suggestion is, instead of having the entire playerbase test them, have a group of GM's led by Enki spend a day testing the difference between iron/addy/glimmer/artifacts and post the results.  Then, we have one set of results and from those, we can talk about how to balance them based on those numbers being considered facts.


 


TLDR: have a small group of impartial GM's test and post the results and we can discuss balance changes based on those numbers and those results, rather than having the entire population try to test in whatever ways they figure is best, and then have to sort through countless reports of what is best, worst, OP and nerfed, all done with different variables and different calculations.


 


having a constructive discussion off of a single set of facts is a lot easier than having a constructive discussion on a large number of data that is part-opinion part-fact


Edited by Naio

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Setting up the test server may be a medium undertaking, but there is an item that GM's can use on test server that spawn items are a manually controlled quality etc similar to fhe cornucopia and would be worth the investment for the future.

You say fhe other artifacts are clear cut but further testing is never a bad thing, it would give the players who have been asked for feedback a way to test more features of the game to give improved feedback. it should never be labeled that things don't need changing, it could be minor tweaks but cool downs/effectiveness/blocking etc could all be tweaked from this, and should not be overlooked by players saying only the 3 weapons need improvements, because it does appear to be a strongly biased opinion from all outside viewers. (It might be correct, but there is no way to confirm or deny this at present)

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Ive been asked to post a suggestion that was intended to be emailed to rolf. This is not MY suggestion. I wrote it up for the person who has issues with writing and keeping a coherent thought in long essays/letters. I talked with the person as I typed it up. None of this is my idea but I do support it.

 

Warning: It is long.

 

After some recent events, I have noticed the artifacts system is a bit flawed. With the current system it makes it really easy for one kingdom to control all the artifacts. This does NOT encourage pvp, from my experiences AND observations of others. When seeing 2-3 artifacts being used in PVP from the same kingdom, most retreat off the pvp or go to secure items vs actually fighting. The system could be improved to try and encourage all kingdoms to pvp with a few changes.

At the current, one kingdom on Chaos control all the artifacts. The main reason they control them? Man power. Currently MR have massive numbers compared to the rest of chaos, JK leading closely behind. Pure numbers are not the only reason they are successful in keeping every artifacts. They have a lot of people who have money, as well as people who(as they and other kingdoms put it) "Turbo Nerd". JK on the other hand has more casual players. Smaller kingdoms do not have the amount of people needed to locate and acquire these when dropped.

cleardot.gif

Last time an artifact dropped I participated in trying to locate it for Black Legion. During this time, we had information from other kingdoms telling us what was going on in their kingdoms(please correct me if what happened in your kingdom was different than what is posted).

First JK bashed the black light. It then caused one of the artifacts MR had to drop and be hidden in the world. Within the next 10 minutes the population on the server went from around 40-90+. In black legion we got on as many champs/priests that we could and started spamming the locate artifact. Other kingdoms were doing this as well. There is a 30 minute cd and casting only reveals 1 random artifact(not necessarily the one that has been dropped). Smaller kingdoms are almost out of the running at this point, 2-3 priests(happened when most were asleep) casting and having to wait when they all fail makes it nearly impossible. MR and JK on the other hand have many more people they can use. MR is first to locate it. IIRC It happens to be in BL territory. Black legion gets this info, not from casts but from another kingdom(not sure on which, I wasn't the one who recieved this directly). MR starts moving their priests in the direction of the successful casts, several possibly karmaing(not many from intel) as they have mass reserves of karma. JK seems to of given up and gone back, as black legion territory is too far from their own. 2 BL moved towards the location leaked. After an hour and a half, give up, do to the constant fails of locating. From there MR quickly acquired the artifact they lost. During the recovery they sent out atleast 11 of their members(11 confirmed, but knowing MR there were MUCH more there).

At current, the system favors those with high numbers and the resources to do such an extensive search. The system penalizes those with smaller numbers and few resources. Now on to my suggestion. What can we do to make this even, for all kingdoms?

Instead of all the artifacts being available to ALL kingdoms, make them evenly divided up between all kingdoms. Each kingdom can choose 4-5, artifacts from a small pool, specific to each kingdom. Each kingdom's pool is seperate from the other. This would allow PMKs of the same base kingdom to still have artifacts and not have them taken by the other. Example would be if there were 2 MR kingdoms, both could have the hammer of mag. The artifacts could be passed out by the king, similar to the title system. Using Locate Artifact will show where the artifact is, even when the person is logged out with it. Res stones and Mag res bonus will still work as it currently does with artifacts, keeping it on death on success.

Currently the artifacts drop. With the new system, they would be removed from the kingdom for 1-3 weeks(I am not sure how long it should be as I am not sure if 1 is too short or 3 is too long). After being released from this 1-3week hold, the kingdom would have to either go to the altar and recover it, OR have it spawned in their territory and have to dig it up as the same mechanic is now. Only one of those should be implimented not both. I am personally in favor of the altar spawn, as it encourages other kingdoms to camp the altar and stop you from retrieving it for your kingdom. This has a nice weight, as being out the artifact would be a nice hit to the kingdom. The drop of the artifact encourages pvp as it will not have to be located using a spell, but show up at the same place.

With this suggestion, I believe artifacts can actually ENCOURAGE pvp. Every kingdom will have artifacts, and fight with out worry that they will lose them to the other kingdom. The only worry is that they will be out that artifact for a set period of time, but not lost forever.

 

 

i kinda liked this idea tbh.

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Setting up the test server may be a medium undertaking, but there is an item that GM's can use on test server that spawn items are a manually controlled quality etc similar to fhe cornucopia and would be worth the investment for the future.

You say fhe other artifacts are clear cut but further testing is never a bad thing, it would give the players who have been asked for feedback a way to test more features of the game to give improved feedback. it should never be labeled that things don't need changing, it could be minor tweaks but cool downs/effectiveness/blocking etc could all be tweaked from this, and should not be overlooked by players saying only the 3 weapons need improvements, because it does appear to be a strongly biased opinion from all outside viewers. (It might be correct, but there is no way to confirm or deny this at present)

 

my point is, we need the details and then we can have the balance discussion.  if it's said that the charm of fo can charm 1 animal to a random tame with a 100 power cast once per hour, it would be easy to have a balance discussion around that.

 

If you just put all the artifacts on the test server and hope for the best, you get 20 people saying they used the charm and it's underpowered because they got it tamed to "nervous" or its overpowered because both times they tried it it went to "loyal"

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(and again I believe you HAVE to have GM supervision documenting your 'tests' nowadays, IF they let you use artifacts anyway).

 

fits quite nicely with the new wiki management, huh?

 

all you gotta do is look at the kills / deaths before and after the artifact nerfs; it is quite clear that the artifacts were incredibly broken before the nerf and PvP balance has gotten much better since they were effectively removed from play

 

it is quite obvious which kingdom sent that email (MR, the ones who want them buffed) and it is quite obvious by reading their posts that they want imbalances that help them win and have no regard for proper balance (ie. SotG, teleporting, buffs / buff stacking, etc.)

 

even just reading Christa's post, this becomes obvious - he wants the counters removed - the timers on spells (AoEs, which are even worse), the backfire on the orb, these are balancing factors that must exist alongside powerful features, but he wants them removed because he does not understand that every feature must have a counter of equal magnitude and opposite polarity to be balanced by definition

 

the fact of the matter is that any type of "super weapons" intentionally create an imbalance in the game, and there is no feasible way to implement them without disrupting balance as long as the mechanics to recover the artifacts and allow them to change hands are in the broken state that they currently are - I'm talking about RAIDING!

 

when it takes 12+ hours and several dozen people to successfully raid even a halfway decent deed because of the increasingly ridiculous building mechanics (dirt walls, bridges, multi-story, mine doors, etc.) that allow people to build virtual nuclear shelters on top of broken raid mechanics and war machines (fix catapulting) and borderline-exploit construction methods (270 rock slopes, bounce pits) on top of other creative uses (shaker orbs + reinforcements, locked caravels as safes, teleporting, etc.)

 

simply put, artis are about as good now as they could hope to be, and subtractive design is probably the best option here - sure, useless is unbalanced, but god-like is infinitely worse

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fits quite nicely with the new wiki management, huh?

 

all you gotta do is look at the kills / deaths before and after the artifact nerfs; it is quite clear that the artifacts were incredibly broken before the nerf and PvP balance has gotten much better since they were effectively removed from play

 

it is quite obvious which kingdom sent that email (MR, the ones who want them buffed) and it is quite obvious by reading their posts that they want imbalances that help them win and have no regard for proper balance (ie. SotG, teleporting, buffs / buff stacking, etc.)

 

even just reading Christa's post, this becomes obvious - he wants the counters removed - the timers on spells (AoEs, which are even worse), the backfire on the orb, these are balancing factors that must exist alongside powerful features, but he wants them removed because he does not understand that every feature must have a counter of equal magnitude and opposite polarity to be balanced by definition

 

the fact of the matter is that any type of "super weapons" intentionally create an imbalance in the game, and there is no feasible way to implement them without disrupting balance as long as the mechanics to recover the artifacts and allow them to change hands are in the broken state that they currently are - I'm talking about RAIDING!

 

when it takes 12+ hours and several dozen people to successfully raid even a halfway decent deed because of the increasingly ridiculous building mechanics (dirt walls, bridges, multi-story, mine doors, etc.) that allow people to build virtual nuclear shelters on top of broken raid mechanics and war machines (fix catapulting) and borderline-exploit construction methods (270 rock slopes, bounce pits) on top of other creative uses (shaker orbs + reinforcements, locked caravels as safes, teleporting, etc.)

 

simply put, artis are about as good now as they could hope to be, and subtractive design is probably the best option here - sure, useless is unbalanced, but god-like is infinitely worse

 

No, I do not want the artifacts buffed into the heavens.  Please don't comment on selected parts of my post to bolster your comments.

 

The AoE casts I suggest are instant sure, but have a 1 hour cooldown and remove the damage enchant from the weapon for that duration (which for the record is a HUGE portion of the damage the scepter and sword do, making them do less damage than a regular, well enchanted 2h weapon).  This is bettered by having at least 1 priest of the appropriate type in your group, anyway.

 

The orb having a 50% chance to kill you outright for the CHANCE at MAYBE doing some damage to your enemies around you is well out of balance.  The orb damage isn't even that high and it's flaky as hell about who it actually hits.  Doing even less damage and removing (or at least lowering the chance of) the insta-suicide will at least give you a viable chance at having it work without being game breaking.

 

Now, I see a lot of posts that are primarily about how MR just wants them buffed because we have them.  I see next to no posts about why they are okay as they are, or what changes people would like made.  If you think my ideas are terrible, that's okay.  Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I respect that fully.  But at least be constructive to the topic.

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~~This is data for Chaos only~~


 


So, as many people kept saying that PVP is increased, I was interested to find out if it was true.  As I understand it, the argument is that PVP is increased because there's no longer a risk of OP weapons coming to a battle, which was scaring people and keeping them on deed and/or in non-pvp situations.  As MR has held 12/12 artifacts for the past 3 months, and 11/12 for the prior 3, I looked at every fight where there would have been a "chance" of an artifact coming into play. So, this INCLUDES every fight MR was involved in, and EXCLUDES fights that MR was not involved in (things like JK or BL vs. Ebonaura).  This data also has freedomers killing each other and alt affinity transfers removed.


In doing this, there are 3 important things we should consider:


1) # of deaths


2) Player Activity


3) Warfronts


4) Group size in pvp


 


 


1) # of deaths


 


The artifacts were nerfed on the last day of April, so, the 3 months leading up to the nerf (Feb, Mar, April) there were 73 kills


 



FEB [06:28:53] Aramisii slain by Garrettwademan Togiodi Redhawk Embolism Felinas  FEB [14:30:15] Sirlaw slain by Issle Rolandt Wendigo Xsuccubusx  FEB [14:22:43] Pijavice slain by Felinas Hoppy Mika Pingvinen FEB [14:35:30] Mcdaniel slain by Kingen Issle Ckczk < Insta Orb of Doom backfire-rip FEB [14:53:54] Kingen slain by Redhawk Felinas Hoppy Yurik Mika FEB [15:09:40] Rolandt slain by Redhawk Felinas Hoppy Mika Yurik FEB [15:31:52] Sirlaw slain by Issle Ckczk Zewt FEB [15:32:22] Ckczk slain by Dalvin Redhawk Felinas Hoppy Mika Yurik Pingvinen FEB [15:35:35] Kingen slain by Redhawk Felinas Hoppy Yurik Pingvinen FEB [15:37:21] Rolandt slain by Redhawk Wendigo Felinas FEB [15:37:21] Rolandt slain by Redhawk Wendigo Felinas FEB [02:00:47] Adamz slain by Emoo Garrettwademan Blazer Mika  FEB [22:35:52] Kurgan slain by Garrettwademan Docterchese Reincarnation Dapperdan Revengo Embolism Red  FEB [22:36:19] Wendigo slain by Docterchese Garrettwademan Robus Christa Reincarnation Dapperdan Revengo Embolism Alagrexa Shadowedlight Red  FEB [22:37:41] Maciejkow slain by Garrettwademan Christa Reincarnation Dapperdan Embolism Hoppy Alagrexa Shadowedlight Red  FEB [22:39:46] Kingen slain by Garrettwademan Robus Christa Reincarnation Dapperdan Embolism Hoppy Alagrexa Shadowedlight Red  FEB [20:53:17] Fangy slain by Tulemees Miniroll Redhawk  FEB


[22:17:43] Daolin slain by Redhawk 

FEB [15:48:33] Sowrecked slain by Emoo Garrettwademan Cienio FEB [15:49:22] Cienio slain by Meridius Daolin Tiu Sowrecked FEB [15:51:01] Garrettwademan slain by Kingen Meridius Daolin Spoonerism Tiu FEB [22:39:55] Sowrecked slain by Garrettwademan Red MAR [02:02:04] Sharkin slain by Christa Embolism Red  MAR [02:02:32] Roseborgne slain by Christa Embolism Red  MAR


[11:31:59] Siobhan slain by Emoo Jukimo Embolism 

MAR


[11:33:38] Carmichael slain by Emoo Garrettwademan Horton Togiodi Jukimo Embolism Felinas 

MAR


[11:33:54] Rolandt slain by Horton Emoo Christa Cienio Jukimo 

MAR


[11:34:13] Nightfall slain by Horton Emoo Togiodi Madnezz Christa Cienio Roysta Jukimo Embolism Champ Felinas Brandonsf 

MAR


[11:39:54] Andderson slain by Emoo Cienio Jukimo Champ Wulfgar Felinas 

MAR [00:24:44] Emperorchong slain by Christa Madnezz Jukimo Felinas  MAR



[01:28:46] Piperlane slain by Togiodi Caradal Jukimo Zivirt Rozare Yurik 


MAR [13:41:15] Wolfikita slain by Levin Jukimo Pingvinen MAR [01:19:16] Andderson slain by Garrettwademan Togiodi Christa  MAR [01:28:25] Bern slain by Garrettwademan Togiodi Rozare Red  MAR [01:54:37] Torreto slain by Garrettwademan Togiodi Christa Madnezz Cienio Champ Red  MAR


[03:42:30] Contego slain by Felinas Mika 

MAR


[03:45:22] Sagaras slain by Felinas Mika 

MAR


[03:49:45] Mika slain by Maurizio Contego 

MAR


[03:55:50] Felinas slain by Sagaras Maurizio Contego 

MAR [21:05:55] Carmichael slain by Garrettwademan Togiodi Christa Jukimo  MAR [16:13:10] Kix slain by Tulemees Christa Madnezz Jukimo Wulfgar Rozare Red MAR



[22:20:36] Bloodmaster slain by Emoo Garrettwademan Cienio Jukimo Rozare Yurik Red 


APR


 [16:08:50] Mortez slain by Tulemees Miniroll Hoppy Mika 

APR


 [17:37:04] Wolfikita slain by Garrettwademan Tulemees Miniroll Jukimo Wulfgar Hoppy Pingvinen 

APR


 [17:38:43] Maciejkow slain by Garrettwademan Tulemees Miniroll Jukimo Wulfgar Hoppy 

APR


 [17:49:56] Mortez slain by Garrettwademan

APR


[01:23:20] Armagheddon slain by Jukimo 

APR


[03:10:44] Smackeddown slain by Togiodi Christa Jukimo 

APR


[03:15:12] Rolandt slain by Togiodi Christa Red 

APR


[03:16:38] Rolandt slain by Christa Jukimo Red 

APR


[03:19:18] Armagheddon slain by Pedro Togiodi Christa Cienio Jukimo Red 

APR [05:08:15] Gaul slain by Pedro Togiodi Madnezz Christa APR [01:18:50] Carmichael slain by Garrettwademan Pedro Tulemees Red  APR [01:26:20] Armagheddon slain by Garrettwademan Pedro Tulemees Togiodi Jukimo Red Pingvinen  APR [19:09:30] Janekpolaczek slain by Tulemees Wulfgar APR   APR [03:18:58] Nicrolis slain by Pedro Garrettwademan Christa APR [04:23:07] Daolin slain by Garrettwademan Christa APR




[02:40:42] Chubchub slain by Garrettwademan Togiodi 



APR


[02:48:45] Doctorchaos slain by Garrettwademan Emoo Pedro Pinejon Madnezz Jukimo Strah Tulemees Togiodi Caradal Mika Red Pingvinen 

APR


[02:49:30] Tulemees slain by Aramisii Legionaire Bloodyhell Eruriku Malevolence Alphawolfen Ciray Strah Fooli Bloodmaster Katatonia Sgtscum Woodenfarts 

APR


[02:51:51] Woodenfarts slain by Emoo Garrettwademan Pinejon Togiodi Christa Caradal Jukimo Red 

APR


[02:54:51] Malevolence slain by Garrettwademan Pedro Emoo Pinejon Tulemees Togiodi Madnezz Christa Jukimo Eruriku Mika Red 

APR


[02:55:51] Strah slain by Emoo Pedro Pinejon Tulemees Togiodi Christa Caradal Mika Rosie 

APR


[02:56:25] Legionaire slain by Pedro Garrettwademan Emoo Madnezz Jukimo Tulemees Togiodi Christa Caradal Rosie Red 

APR


[02:57:42] Majorminor slain by Garrettwademan Pedro Emoo Pinejon Madnezz Jukimo Tulemees Christa Caradal Mika Alagrexa Red 

APR


[02:58:03] Aramisii slain by Emoo Pedro Tulemees Togiodi Christa Madnezz Caradal Jukimo Motasolo Rosie Red Pingvinen 

APR


[02:58:13] Eruriku slain by Emoo Pedro Pinejon Madnezz Jukimo Tulemees Togiodi Christa Caradal Mika Alagrexa Red Pingvinen 

APR


[02:59:14] Ciray slain by Emoo Tulemees Pinejon Togiodi Madnezz Caradal Motasolo Jukimo Mika Alagrexa Rosie Pingvinen 

APR


[02:59:45] Woodenfarts slain by Emoo 

APR


[02:59:58] Fogshark slain by Emoo Garrettwademan Pedro Pinejon Madnezz Togiodi Christa Caradal Mika Alagrexa Rosie Red Pingvinen 

APR


[03:00:26] Samusen slain by Emoo Togiodi 

APR


[03:00:49] Smackeddown slain by Emoo Garrettwademan Tulemees Togiodi Madnezz Caradal 

APR


[03:00:58] Bloodyhell slain by Emoo Pedro Tulemees Pinejon Togiodi Jukimo Pingvinen 


 


In the 3 months after the nerf, there have been 105 kills (clearly, we're missing the last 4 days of July)


 



MAY [21:26:38] Chubchub slain by Pedro Horton Christa Caradal Hoppy MAY


[14:25:30] Robus slain by Dagobert Xallo Rolandt Katatonia Ciray Strah 

MAY


[14:27:38] Chubchub slain by Emoo Tulemees Togiodi Caradal Zivirt 

MAY


[14:50:50] Samusen slain by Emoo Togiodi Caradal 

MAY


[15:10:23] Shrimpiie slain by Horton Emoo Pinejon Levin Madnezz Jukimo Wulfgar Hoppy Brandonsf Tulemees Togiodi Christa Zivirt Red 

MAY


[15:11:06] Emoo slain by Legionaire Adamz Necroedarkslayer Siobhan Rolandt Alphawolfen Strah Arakiel Dagobert Cesaille Shrimpiie Torreto Mormo Rosedragon Xallo Fogshark Andderson Eruriku Gau Drsatan Kswords Ciray Sharkin Arachna Christa Nightfall Katatonia Sgtscum Avenger 

MAY [05:26:59] Thornbush slain by Christa  MAY



[06:30:45] Choch slain by Garrettwademan Red 


MAY [06:33:51] Arakiel slain by Garrettwademan Pedro Jukimo Champ Felinas Red  MAY [06:58:57] Gau slain by Garrettwademan MAY [07:19:14] Kraegar slain by Pedro Red  MAY [07:22:00] Shrimpiie slain by Pedro Red  MAY [03:11:40] Evarya slain by Tulemees Revengo  MAY [03:53:11] Bworld slain by Tulemees Revengo  MAY [04:29:15] Sagaras slain by Tulemees Revengo  MAY [04:29:57] Revengo slain by Sagaras Tulemees Contego Bworld MAY [04:30:41] Contego slain by Tulemees Revengo  MAY [04:31:22] Bworld slain by Tulemees Sagaras Revengo  MAY




[04:53:19] Genocide slain by Pedro Christa Miniroll Jukimo Redhawk Demondan Felinas Hoppy 



MAY


[04:54:50] Woodenfarts slain by Pedro Miniroll Jukimo Redhawk Felinas 

MAY


[04:57:54] Armyskin slain by Dagobert Legionaire Thornbush Deathangel Ciray Strah 

MAY


[04:58:59] Necroedarkslayer slain by Pedro Christa Caradal Miniroll Jukimo Redhawk Snagged Demondan Felinas Hoppy Red 

MAY


[04:59:51] Deathangel slain by Pedro Horton Christa Caradal Miniroll Redhawk Demondan Mika Red 

MAY


[05:00:05] Felinas slain by Dagobert Bloodyhell Legionaire Fogshark Thornbush Alphawolfen Deathangel Ciray Strah 

MAY


[05:01:05] Miniroll slain by Dagobert Legionaire Bloodyhell Thornbush Alphawolfen Ciray Strah 

MAY


[05:03:04] Christa slain by Dagobert Legionaire Bloodyhell Necroedarkslayer Fogshark Thornbush Alphawolfen Ciray Strah 

MAY [03:53:53] Pedro slain by Bloodyhell Thornbush Deathangel  MAY [01:13:33] Alphawolfen slain by Garrettwademan Redhawk Zivirt Red  MAY


[02:48:57] Horton slain by Doctorchaos Dagobert Bloodyhell Warrior Eruriku Andderson Malevolence Sgtscum Strah 

MAY


[02:49:40] Red slain by Dagobert Bloodyhell Legionaire Warrior Andderson Malevolence Sgtscum Strah 

MAY


[02:51:31] Hoppy slain by Doctorchaos Dagobert Bloodyhell Legionaire Eruriku 

MAY


[02:53:10] Roseborgne slain by Legionaire Warrior Andderson Malevolence Strah 

MAY


[02:53:37] Pingvinen slain by Doctorchaos Legionaire Warrior Eruriku Malevolence Strah 

MAY


[02:53:37] Sgtscum slain by Garrettwademan Togiodi Caradal Zivirt Mika Pingvinen 

MAY


[02:54:38] Warrior slain by Garrettwademan Togiodi Caradal Redhawk Zivirt Pingvinen 

MAY


[02:56:32] Andderson slain by Garrettwademan Roseborgne Togiodi Caradal Jukimo Redhawk Zivirt 

MAY


[03:00:43] Strah slain by Garrettwademan Togiodi Caradal Jukimo Redhawk Zivirt Mika 

MAY


[03:04:07] Doctorchaos slain by Garrettwademan Pinejon Togiodi Caradal Jukimo Redhawk Zivirt Hoppy Mika Red 

MAY


[03:06:15] Dagobert slain by Togiodi Caradal Jukimo Redhawk Zivirt Hoppy Mika Red 

MAY


[03:06:50] Bloodyhell slain by Garrettwademan Pinejon Togiodi Caradal Jukimo Redhawk Zivirt Mika Red 

MAY


[03:07:49] Malevolence slain by Garrettwademan Jukimo Redhawk Zivirt 

MAY


[03:07:59] Legionaire slain by Garrettwademan Pinejon Togiodi Caradal Jukimo Zivirt Hoppy Red 

MAY


[03:08:59] Eruriku slain by Legionaire Pinejon Togiodi Caradal Jukimo Redhawk Zivirt Hoppy Mika 

JUN




[12:58:42] Nightfall slain by Tulemees Christa 



JUN


[12:59:50] Torreto slain by Garrettwademan Togiodi Mika 

JUN


[13:01:08] Necroedarkslayer slain by Garrettwademan Togiodi Mika 

JUN


[13:01:45] Xristoff slain by Christa Mika Red 

JUN


[13:01:49] Deathangel slain by Garrettwademan Tulemees Togiodi Mika 

JUN  [20:29:29] Galaxycruiser slain by Fuegan Kraegar Smackeddown Chubchub Chrizz JUN  [21:21:50] Larry slain by Mortez Kingen Blackmonk Bangzuvelis JUN [19:26:34] Xristoff slain by Fevfev Adamz Eruriku  JUN [23:41:02] Fevfev slain by Robus Wulfgar Tarantula JUN [23:41:59] Chrizz slain by Robus Wulfgar Tarantula JUN


[11:04:18] Malevolence slain by Blazer Armyskin 

JUN


[11:04:44] Armyskin slain by Malevolence 

JUN [14:07:46] Kingen slain by Wulfgar JUN


[19:11:23] Zoreth slain by Tulemees Redhawk Hoppy Red Blinksyrevived 

JUN


[19:35:13] Rolandt slain by Tulemees Togiodi Redhawk Wulfgar Hoppy Mika Red Blinksyrevived 

JUN


[19:55:37] Kochinac slain by Adamz Sharkin 

JUN


[20:30:43] Zkovacs slain by Tulemees Roseborgne Togiodi Redhawk Nadroj Red Kincain 

JUN [16:22:00] Chubchub slain by Leaf Waledw Larry JUN [16:23:42] Necroedarkslayer slain by Suchswag Leaf Waledw Larry JUN [15:35:34] Fevfev slain by Horton Tulemees JUN [16:27:02] Blinksyrevived slain by Dagobert Fevfev Adamz Metaldragon JUN [16:29:08] Christa slain by Dagobert Fevfev Adamz Metaldragon JUN [16:30:15] Tulemees slain by Dagobert Fevfev Adamz Metaldragon JUN [12:09:31] Waledw slain by Polan Fevfev Necroedarkslayer Katatonia JUN [12:09:42] Necroedarkslayer slain by Polan Garrettwademan Nadroj Passepartout  JUN [12:12:25] Katatonia slain by Garrettwademan Nadroj Passepartout Kincain  JUN [12:13:56] Fevfev slain by Garrettwademan Nadroj Passepartout Kincain  JUN [00:21:08] Fevfev slain by Garrettwademan Tulemees Togiodi Caradal Redhawk Wulfgar Nadroj Red Blinksyrevived Kincain JUN [00:39:11] Kix slain by Garrettwademan Tulemees Togiodi Caradal Wulfgar Nadroj Red Blinksyrevived Pingvinen JUN


[19:38:05] Xristoff slain by Togiodi Caradal Redhawk Hoppy Nadroj 

JUN


[20:30:11] Armyskin slain by Aramisii Bloodyhell Adamz Chrizz Ciray Kunibert 

JUN [20:03:49] Davy slain by Jukimo Wulfgar Red  JUN [05:26:43] Togiodi slain by Warrior Alphawolfen Kunibert JUN [23:04:19] Andderson slain by Robus Togiodi Caradal JUN [19:29:43] Pingvinen slain by Polan Legionaire Kix Necroedarkslayer Fevfev Warrior Thornbush Sharkin  JUN [14:30:07] Galaxycruiser slain by Duderino Meridius JUN [14:32:09] Hoppy slain by Hashirama Duderino Meridius JUN [04:35:09] Tulemees slain by Aramisii Legionaire Necroedarkslayer Deathangel Kunibert JUN [13:30:07] Togiodi slain by Polan Dagobert Legionaire Bloodyhell Baldeagleog Fevfev Cornchips Ciray Kunibert JUN [01:14:16] Rasu slain by Togiodi Keenan Mcdaniel Kernelleonessar Jukimo Redhawk Bennyhill Hoppy JUN [01:15:10] Bangzuvelis slain by Keenan Togiodi Mcdaniel Jukimo Redhawk Hoppy Nadroj JUN [01:15:50] Blackmonk slain by Keenan Togiodi Kernelleonessar Mcdaniel Jukimo Redhawk Hoppy Nadroj JUN [01:16:13] Issle slain by Keenan Togiodi Mcdaniel Jukimo Redhawk Nadroj Hoppy JUN [01:17:11] Kingen slain by Togiodi Keenan Mcdaniel Kernelleonessar Jukimo Redhawk Hoppy Nadroj JUN [23:34:42] Necroedarkslayer slain by Garrettwademan Christa Mika Red Kincain  JUN [23:35:42] Stormcrow slain by Garrettwademan Christa Mika Red Kincain  JUN [16:39:05] Zaz slain by Pedro Togiodi Mcdaniel Christa Kernelleonessar Caradal Redhawk  JUL [16:17:11] Chiry slain by Garrettwademan Togiodi Christa Hoppy Mika JUL [16:17:48] Togiodi slain by Kix Aramisii Chiry Davy Mika Ciray JUL [16:18:31] Hoppy slain by Kix Aramisii Christa Chiry Ciray JUL [16:19:51] Christa slain by Kix Aramisii Bloodyhell Davy Ciray JUL [16:23:00] Garrettwademan slain by Doctorchaos Kix Bloodyhell Aramisii Davy Ciray JUL [22:50:35] Sirlaw slain by Hashirama Bumbum Blackdeathdragon Hoppy  JUL [18:34:55] Genocide slain by Garrettwademan Robus Togiodi Mika Red Kincain  JUL [00:13:04] Threap slain by Hashirama Bumbum Blackdeathdragon Evilmind  JUL



[15:18:02] Cornchips slain by Garrettwademan Cienio Jukimo Robus Tulemees Togiodi Red Blinksyrevived


JUL [15:19:08] Kix slain by Garrettwademan Clasin Cienio Jukimo Redhawk Robus Tulemees Togiodi Embolism Blinksyrevived Red JUL [15:19:23] Twinsen slain by Clasin Robus Tulemees Christa Cienio Embolism Redhawk Red JUL [15:20:39] Malevolence slain by Garrettwademan Aramisii Cienio Jukimo Redhawk Tulemees Togiodi Christa Chiry Embolism Blinksyrevived Pingvinen JUL [15:21:35] Aramisii slain by Garrettwademan Clasin Jukimo Robus Tulemees Togiodi Christa Embolism Red Pingvinen JUL [15:22:06] Chiry slain by Garrettwademan Clasin Cienio Redhawk Robus Tulemees Christa Embolism Red Blinksyrevived Pingvinen JUL


[15:23:56] Aetherwalker slain by Garrettwademan Clasin Cienio Jukimo Redhawk Robus Tulemees Togiodi Embolism Red Blinksyrevived Pingvinen



 


So that's an increase of 29% more PVP.


 


 


2) Player Activity


The next thing I looked at was player count via http://wild001.game.wurmonline.com/mrtg/wurm.html.  The average player count of Feb/Mar/Apr was 39.  The average player count of May/Jun/Jul was 52.  An increase of 25%.


 


So, with that, we had 25% more people playing, and 29% more PVP.  Which lines up surprisingly closely.  I wanted to see if the artifact nerf had anything to do with having that population increase of 25%, so I compared it to last year, and this summer is actually lower playercounts than last summer - last July has an average of 61 (compared to this july 57).  Also, looking at data, summer months are historically more active than winter months.


 


3) Wardeeds


 


3 days before the artifact nerf, MR planted a wardeed outside the JK capital and performed several raids over the next few weeks.  Following that, in late June and July, JK has placed a number of wardeeds along a big stretch of MR influence.  Both of those activities accounted for a lot of PVP centralized around these few areas.


 


Both of those factors play into it, as a big chunk of deaths in the past 3 months were a direct result of the land-grabbing and deed raiding, whereas before that, there were no active wardeeds.


 


4) Group size in pvp


 


I've also seen comments that with nerfed artifacts, it's increased active small-group pvp and roaming/exploration of the map.  The numbers are actually shockingly close to one another.  pre-nerf, an average of 5.64 people were on each death tab. post-nerf, an average of 5.69 people were on each death tab.  However, there were 2 very large fights (WoP pre-nerf and Doing Stuff post-nerf) that skewed these numbers.  Once taking those numbers out, there is an average of 4.6 players per death pre-nerf, and 5.59 players per death post-nerf.  So, excluding those 2 fights as outliers, there was more small-group PVP prior to the artifact nerfs.  I attribute this, however, to the fact that there were no active warfronts, so most pvp happened by just roaming around.  I don't believe this has anything to do with the artifact changes.


 


TLDR: Based on the data, the artifact nerf had no influence on the amount of PVP on Chaos, in fact when taking into account the active warfront deeds and active players in the summer, there is actually less PVP post-nerf.  25% more active playerbase due to summer months, aligned to 29% more active PVP.  Change had no impact to # of people playing wurm, in fact, player numbers lower than last summer.  Average group size in fights equal pre- and post-change.

Edited by Naio
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I'll post a list of my kingdom's view of the artifacts as they exist now, along with data gathered.

 

Edit: As promised.

 

Artifact specifics:

 

Crown - Fine

 

Ear - Fine

 

Mouth - Fine

 

Eye - Should be a guarenteed locate.  Currently just has a chance of locating (granted with the ability to penetrate nolo body casts).  

Would also be nice if the locate artifact component of it did not locate itself.  It does this around about 50% of the time.

It's not worth taking the eye out when you can simply spam locate soul casts as a priest, in its current state. 

 

Rod - Change active use to something useful.  Forrest Giant Strength does nothing for 40+ body strength accounts.

 

Charm - Fine

 

Finger - Good. Perhaps add the ability to use on other people?

 

Scale - Fine.

 

Scepter - Increase hit/reduce glance chance, as the current hit chance compared to other weapons is very small (as it is with regular mauls). Change active ability to an instant cast Fungus Trap around the user. Disable Rotting Touch until active timer is up.

 

Hammer - Incrase hit/reduce glance chance, as the current hit chance compared to other weapons is very small (as it is with regular mauls).  Change active ability to an instant cast Light of Fo (reduce healing effect). Disable Life Transfer until active timer is up.

 

Sword - Slight damage increase. Around 10% on current perhaps. Change active ability to an instant cast Fire Pillar around the user. Disable Flaming Aura until active timer is up.

 

The active ability changes bring some utility to the weapons instead of them simply being things to hit people with (a suggestion many people liked from the previous topic), and move away from the vague non-info about what the weapons active abilities actually are.

And the removal of the damage enchant from each helps to keep the effective damage of the weapons down if you choose to use the active ability.

 

Orb - Reduce AoE damage, remove the 50% chance for user to die.  If backfire must exist, have it simply do the damage to your own team, on a small chance.  Number of charges used on activation should be lowered.

As the orb exists, there is no reason at all use it. The damage it does can be nice, but a 50% chance of losing a fighter right out is more harful than a successful use is helpful.

 

General:

 

Increase max charges to around 50% of previous level.  This strikes a better balance between maintaining and usability of them.  Current maximums mean some artifacts if used properly must be recharged every few days.

Fix the charge status messages to match the new maximum charges - currently a fully recharged artifact gives a message suggesting it is almost out of charges.

Equipping/unequipping the scale and crown should not untame your pet.  Dropping should still do as intended.

Currently artifacts lose charges at different rates, even if not used.  Hammer and rod charges appear to decay faster than the others, even though the active is never used.

Active abilities on the Rod and Scepter currently cast phantasms of you if you're not Fo (for the Rod) or Libilia (for the Scepter).  This should be removed.

 

Magranon Priests:

 

Currently Magranon priests are nerfed when using the artifact weapons as their damage passive does not stack with the artifacts.

No other faith receives a nerf for using the artifacts. This should be addressed in some way.  Some suggestions are reduced heals for Fo, reduced spell damage for Lib etc.

 

Some other suggestions were thrown at me, such as the addition of artifacts for the new gods, but I think for now they go beyond the scope of the topic.

 

 

For those requestion an artifact reset so they can test them, in all honestly Wurm has a test server for a reason.  Currently GMs refuse to hand out the artifacts to players, and for the purposes of this topic I think players should be permitted to spawn the artifacts on the Test server and play with them.  Especially since the major complaint has been the weapons/armour, they can be tested very quickly and reliably.

I'll quote the whole topic in case others haven't seen you have changed this post.

Only things I can agree on are finger, eye and possibly rod (I was going to say stop giving it to people over 40 body str, but I can't see the benefit of using the spell other than mediocre damage buff/reduction for a period of time)

I disagree with your AoE suggestions because you have stated you want them instant, this is what I mean about adding snowballing abilities, Light of fo is a serious game changer when it's let off at the right time and not interrupted - you want to be about to fire this off in an instant? Not only that, but you wish to be able to let off two separate AoE damage abilities with no timer either. Straight away I just see rush, aoe field, as they back off, another aoe field, duke them out but don't worry if we get low I'll instantly heal everyone.

Orb of doom's affects are perfect for what the name states, assuming it is definitely 50/50 chance imo there's no problem, if it's currently in favour of damaging the user then I agree needs to be changed. The orb is also a game changing mechanic and by no means should it have a very little chance to back fire if it's got the ability to nuke a large portion of your enemies health in an area. The only changes I'd be up for are something like 50% to hit enemies, 45% chance to hit your allies, 5% chance to insta kill the user.

As for resetting artifacts - I agree no artifacts should be reset if they're nerfed - but as per tradition of them being BUFFED - then I wouldn't say it's not fair for every kingdom to have a chance at them.

I also see the Mol-Rehan Chaos like squad has came in to push the suggestion. I wonder if anyone else may try and create a counter like suggestion to combat the "get all ur friends to like my post" meta.

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I've been hit 3 times by the orb of doom, all of them by JK. Back then, the chance of a backfire was low and it changed the outcome of the fight almost every time despite my side outnumbering JK.

It's a frightening weapon that deals so much damage instantaneously to the enemy side when it does succeed. It should have a higher chance of failure to balance it out if it's not at 50% already.

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That they need buffing for the following reasons:


 


Weapons artifacts on a DPM level do less damage than normal weapons. Their use before hand was that they could do lots of damage on occasions, which was taken away from them in the last nerfs. Thus a number of changes can be made. Hit chance increased. Swing times decreased. Damage stay the same. Give pillar abilities to each for extra use.


Orb of doom is 50% death on click. This is not a balanced feature. Revert it back to 95% chance success and the 5% damages the allied team, not instantly kill the user. Orb of doom should do a % damage to a player, ranging from 25-50% meaning it can never be used to kill someone.


Eye needs to be made into something actually useful rather than something uesless by making it 100% locate upon use.


Finger to be usable on allied people ( activate right click use on someone).


Recharging length is fine, perhaps increase to 4 weeks.


Add in a feature where when examining the artifacts you can see the exact power. Perhaps new kingdom title which allows each kingdom to see each artifacts power so predictions on recharging can be made.


Using an artifact drains no charges.


 


All the above changes, will make people want the artifacts (because they're actually useful), and thus will create more PvP.


 


Also, you're* Lulu.


Edited by Redd

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That they need buffing for the following reasons:

Weapons artifacts on a DPM level do less damage than normal weapons. Their use before hand was that they could do lots of damage on occasions, which was taken away from them in the last nerfs. Thus a number of changes can be made. Hit chance increased. Swing times decreased. Damage stay the same. Give pillar abilities to each for extra use.

Orb of doom is 50% death on click. This is not a balanced feature. Revert it back to 95% chance success and the 5% damages the allied team, not instantly kill the user. Orb of doom should do a % damage to a player, ranging from 25-50% meaning it can never be used to kill someone.

Eye needs to be made into something actually useful rather than something uesless by making it 100% locate upon use.

Finger to be usable on allied people ( activate right click use on someone).

Recharging length is fine, perhaps increase to 4 weeks.

Add in a feature where when examining the artifacts you can see the exact power. Perhaps new kingdom title which allows each kingdom to see each artifacts power so predictions on recharging can be made.

Using an artifact drains no charges.

All the above changes, will make people want the artifacts (because they're actually useful), and thus will create more PvP.

Also, you're* Lulu.

All this to say that epic people arn't and to spellcheck lulu. Stop forcing a biased agenda, deliberately not using them in pvp bar recharging is a folly and all that should come of it is even shorter intervals between charges.

The artifacts are being used enmass on epic and nobody seems to whine about any of them bar the mouth chonking down charges.

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Artifacts should be one use only.


 


You get it, you use it and it goes to ground.


 


Once retrieved a fixed timer start, wen time runs out the artifact goes to ground again.


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No, I do not want the artifacts buffed into the heavens.  Please don't comment on selected parts of my post to bolster your comments.

 

The AoE casts I suggest are instant sure, but have a 1 hour cooldown and remove the damage enchant from the weapon for that duration (which for the record is a HUGE portion of the damage the scepter and sword do, making them do less damage than a regular, well enchanted 2h weapon).  This is bettered by having at least 1 priest of the appropriate type in your group, anyway.

 

The orb having a 50% chance to kill you outright for the CHANCE at MAYBE doing some damage to your enemies around you is well out of balance.  The orb damage isn't even that high and it's flaky as hell about who it actually hits.  Doing even less damage and removing (or at least lowering the chance of) the insta-suicide will at least give you a viable chance at having it work without being game breaking.

 

Now, I see a lot of posts that are primarily about how MR just wants them buffed because we have them.  I see next to no posts about why they are okay as they are, or what changes people would like made.  If you think my ideas are terrible, that's okay.  Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I respect that fully.  But at least be constructive to the topic.

 

instant AoEs are in no way balanced

 

backfire is balanced, maybe some mechanics are weird / buggy (welcome to Wurm Online) and those should be fixed but you can't have a huge positive with a small downside or none at all, it's 2015 and people still don't get that, hence sotg, champ, valrei buffs, etc. still being considered balanced by most of the community, although this is normal - see any other game with severe balance issues, the users and beneficiaries usually believe that they are balanced when they aren't

 

any feature needs a counter or downside equal in magnitude to its benefits or as equal as possible, you can't say that a chance to AoE smite with a chance of suicide is unbalanced then claim that a chance to AoE smite with no chance to backfire is balanced because that's not even a matter of opinion anymore, no / weak counter vs. strong buff is unbalanced, period

 

~~This is data for Chaos only~~

 

So, as many people kept saying that PVP is increased, I was interested to find out if it was true.  As I understand it, the argument is that PVP is increased because there's no longer a risk of OP weapons coming to a battle, which was scaring people and keeping them on deed and/or in non-pvp situations.  As MR has held 12/12 artifacts for the past 3 months, and 11/12 for the prior 3, I looked at every fight where there would have been a "chance" of an artifact coming into play. So, this INCLUDES every fight MR was involved in, and EXCLUDES fights that MR was not involved in (things like JK or BL vs. Ebonaura).  This data also has freedomers killing each other and alt affinity transfers removed.

In doing this, there are 3 important things we should consider:

1) # of deaths

2) Player Activity

3) Warfronts

4) Group size in pvp

 

 

1) # of deaths

 

The artifacts were nerfed on the last day of April, so, the 3 months leading up to the nerf (Feb, Mar, April) there were 73 kills

 

FEB [06:28:53] Aramisii slain by Garrettwademan Togiodi Redhawk Embolism Felinas  FEB [14:30:15] Sirlaw slain by Issle Rolandt Wendigo Xsuccubusx  FEB [14:22:43] Pijavice slain by Felinas Hoppy Mika Pingvinen FEB [14:35:30] Mcdaniel slain by Kingen Issle Ckczk < Insta Orb of Doom backfire-rip FEB [14:53:54] Kingen slain by Redhawk Felinas Hoppy Yurik Mika FEB [15:09:40] Rolandt slain by Redhawk Felinas Hoppy Mika Yurik FEB [15:31:52] Sirlaw slain by Issle Ckczk Zewt FEB [15:32:22] Ckczk slain by Dalvin Redhawk Felinas Hoppy Mika Yurik Pingvinen FEB [15:35:35] Kingen slain by Redhawk Felinas Hoppy Yurik Pingvinen FEB [15:37:21] Rolandt slain by Redhawk Wendigo Felinas FEB [15:37:21] Rolandt slain by Redhawk Wendigo Felinas FEB [02:00:47] Adamz slain by Emoo Garrettwademan Blazer Mika  FEB [22:35:52] Kurgan slain by Garrettwademan Docterchese Reincarnation Dapperdan Revengo Embolism Red  FEB [22:36:19] Wendigo slain by Docterchese Garrettwademan Robus Christa Reincarnation Dapperdan Revengo Embolism Alagrexa Shadowedlight Red  FEB [22:37:41] Maciejkow slain by Garrettwademan Christa Reincarnation Dapperdan Embolism Hoppy Alagrexa Shadowedlight Red  FEB [22:39:46] Kingen slain by Garrettwademan Robus Christa Reincarnation Dapperdan Embolism Hoppy Alagrexa Shadowedlight Red  FEB [20:53:17] Fangy slain by Tulemees Miniroll Redhawk  FEB

[22:17:43] Daolin slain by Redhawk 

FEB [15:48:33] Sowrecked slain by Emoo Garrettwademan Cienio FEB [15:49:22] Cienio slain by Meridius Daolin Tiu Sowrecked FEB [15:51:01] Garrettwademan slain by Kingen Meridius Daolin Spoonerism Tiu FEB [22:39:55] Sowrecked slain by Garrettwademan Red MAR [02:02:04] Sharkin slain by Christa Embolism Red  MAR [02:02:32] Roseborgne slain by Christa Embolism Red  MAR

[11:31:59] Siobhan slain by Emoo Jukimo Embolism 

MAR

[11:33:38] Carmichael slain by Emoo Garrettwademan Horton Togiodi Jukimo Embolism Felinas 

MAR

[11:33:54] Rolandt slain by Horton Emoo Christa Cienio Jukimo 

MAR

[11:34:13] Nightfall slain by Horton Emoo Togiodi Madnezz Christa Cienio Roysta Jukimo Embolism Champ Felinas Brandonsf 

MAR

[11:39:54] Andderson slain by Emoo Cienio Jukimo Champ Wulfgar Felinas 

MAR [00:24:44] Emperorchong slain by Christa Madnezz Jukimo Felinas  MAR

[01:28:46] Piperlane slain by Togiodi Caradal Jukimo Zivirt Rozare Yurik 

MAR [13:41:15] Wolfikita slain by Levin Jukimo Pingvinen MAR [01:19:16] Andderson slain by Garrettwademan Togiodi Christa  MAR [01:28:25] Bern slain by Garrettwademan Togiodi Rozare Red  MAR [01:54:37] Torreto slain by Garrettwademan Togiodi Christa Madnezz Cienio Champ Red  MAR

[03:42:30] Contego slain by Felinas Mika 

MAR

[03:45:22] Sagaras slain by Felinas Mika 

MAR

[03:49:45] Mika slain by Maurizio Contego 

MAR

[03:55:50] Felinas slain by Sagaras Maurizio Contego 

MAR [21:05:55] Carmichael slain by Garrettwademan Togiodi Christa Jukimo  MAR [16:13:10] Kix slain by Tulemees Christa Madnezz Jukimo Wulfgar Rozare Red MAR

[22:20:36] Bloodmaster slain by Emoo Garrettwademan Cienio Jukimo Rozare Yurik Red 

APR

 [16:08:50] Mortez slain by Tulemees Miniroll Hoppy Mika 

APR

 [17:37:04] Wolfikita slain by Garrettwademan Tulemees Miniroll Jukimo Wulfgar Hoppy Pingvinen 

APR

 [17:38:43] Maciejkow slain by Garrettwademan Tulemees Miniroll Jukimo Wulfgar Hoppy 

APR

 [17:49:56] Mortez slain by Garrettwademan

APR

[01:23:20] Armagheddon slain by Jukimo 

APR

[03:10:44] Smackeddown slain by Togiodi Christa Jukimo 

APR

[03:15:12] Rolandt slain by Togiodi Christa Red 

APR

[03:16:38] Rolandt slain by Christa Jukimo Red 

APR

[03:19:18] Armagheddon slain by Pedro Togiodi Christa Cienio Jukimo Red 

APR [05:08:15] Gaul slain by Pedro Togiodi Madnezz Christa APR [01:18:50] Carmichael slain by Garrettwademan Pedro Tulemees Red  APR [01:26:20] Armagheddon slain by Garrettwademan Pedro Tulemees Togiodi Jukimo Red Pingvinen  APR [19:09:30] Janekpolaczek slain by Tulemees Wulfgar APR   APR [03:18:58] Nicrolis slain by Pedro Garrettwademan Christa APR [04:23:07] Daolin slain by Garrettwademan Christa APR

[02:40:42] Chubchub slain by Garrettwademan Togiodi 

APR

[02:48:45] Doctorchaos slain by Garrettwademan Emoo Pedro Pinejon Madnezz Jukimo Strah Tulemees Togiodi Caradal Mika Red Pingvinen 

APR

[02:49:30] Tulemees slain by Aramisii Legionaire Bloodyhell Eruriku Malevolence Alphawolfen Ciray Strah Fooli Bloodmaster Katatonia Sgtscum Woodenfarts 

APR

[02:51:51] Woodenfarts slain by Emoo Garrettwademan Pinejon Togiodi Christa Caradal Jukimo Red 

APR

[02:54:51] Malevolence slain by Garrettwademan Pedro Emoo Pinejon Tulemees Togiodi Madnezz Christa Jukimo Eruriku Mika Red 

APR

[02:55:51] Strah slain by Emoo Pedro Pinejon Tulemees Togiodi Christa Caradal Mika Rosie 

APR

[02:56:25] Legionaire slain by Pedro Garrettwademan Emoo Madnezz Jukimo Tulemees Togiodi Christa Caradal Rosie Red 

APR

[02:57:42] Majorminor slain by Garrettwademan Pedro Emoo Pinejon Madnezz Jukimo Tulemees Christa Caradal Mika Alagrexa Red 

APR

[02:58:03] Aramisii slain by Emoo Pedro Tulemees Togiodi Christa Madnezz Caradal Jukimo Motasolo Rosie Red Pingvinen 

APR

[02:58:13] Eruriku slain by Emoo Pedro Pinejon Madnezz Jukimo Tulemees Togiodi Christa Caradal Mika Alagrexa Red Pingvinen 

APR

[02:59:14] Ciray slain by Emoo Tulemees Pinejon Togiodi Madnezz Caradal Motasolo Jukimo Mika Alagrexa Rosie Pingvinen 

APR

[02:59:45] Woodenfarts slain by Emoo 

APR

[02:59:58] Fogshark slain by Emoo Garrettwademan Pedro Pinejon Madnezz Togiodi Christa Caradal Mika Alagrexa Rosie Red Pingvinen 

APR

[03:00:26] Samusen slain by Emoo Togiodi 

APR

[03:00:49] Smackeddown slain by Emoo Garrettwademan Tulemees Togiodi Madnezz Caradal 

APR

[03:00:58] Bloodyhell slain by Emoo Pedro Tulemees Pinejon Togiodi Jukimo Pingvinen 

 

In the 3 months after the nerf, there have been 105 kills (clearly, we're missing the last 4 days of July)

 

MAY [21:26:38] Chubchub slain by Pedro Horton Christa Caradal Hoppy MAY

[14:25:30] Robus slain by Dagobert Xallo Rolandt Katatonia Ciray Strah 

MAY

[14:27:38] Chubchub slain by Emoo Tulemees Togiodi Caradal Zivirt 

MAY

[14:50:50] Samusen slain by Emoo Togiodi Caradal 

MAY

[15:10:23] Shrimpiie slain by Horton Emoo Pinejon Levin Madnezz Jukimo Wulfgar Hoppy Brandonsf Tulemees Togiodi Christa Zivirt Red 

MAY

[15:11:06] Emoo slain by Legionaire Adamz Necroedarkslayer Siobhan Rolandt Alphawolfen Strah Arakiel Dagobert Cesaille Shrimpiie Torreto Mormo Rosedragon Xallo Fogshark Andderson Eruriku Gau Drsatan Kswords Ciray Sharkin Arachna Christa Nightfall Katatonia Sgtscum Avenger 

MAY [05:26:59] Thornbush slain by Christa  MAY

[06:30:45] Choch slain by Garrettwademan Red 

MAY [06:33:51] Arakiel slain by Garrettwademan Pedro Jukimo Champ Felinas Red  MAY [06:58:57] Gau slain by Garrettwademan MAY [07:19:14] Kraegar slain by Pedro Red  MAY [07:22:00] Shrimpiie slain by Pedro Red  MAY [03:11:40] Evarya slain by Tulemees Revengo  MAY [03:53:11] Bworld slain by Tulemees Revengo  MAY [04:29:15] Sagaras slain by Tulemees Revengo  MAY [04:29:57] Revengo slain by Sagaras Tulemees Contego Bworld MAY [04:30:41] Contego slain by Tulemees Revengo  MAY [04:31:22] Bworld slain by Tulemees Sagaras Revengo  MAY

[04:53:19] Genocide slain by Pedro Christa Miniroll Jukimo Redhawk Demondan Felinas Hoppy 

MAY

[04:54:50] Woodenfarts slain by Pedro Miniroll Jukimo Redhawk Felinas 

MAY

[04:57:54] Armyskin slain by Dagobert Legionaire Thornbush Deathangel Ciray Strah 

MAY

[04:58:59] Necroedarkslayer slain by Pedro Christa Caradal Miniroll Jukimo Redhawk Snagged Demondan Felinas Hoppy Red 

MAY

[04:59:51] Deathangel slain by Pedro Horton Christa Caradal Miniroll Redhawk Demondan Mika Red 

MAY

[05:00:05] Felinas slain by Dagobert Bloodyhell Legionaire Fogshark Thornbush Alphawolfen Deathangel Ciray Strah 

MAY

[05:01:05] Miniroll slain by Dagobert Legionaire Bloodyhell Thornbush Alphawolfen Ciray Strah 

MAY

[05:03:04] Christa slain by Dagobert Legionaire Bloodyhell Necroedarkslayer Fogshark Thornbush Alphawolfen Ciray Strah 

MAY [03:53:53] Pedro slain by Bloodyhell Thornbush Deathangel  MAY [01:13:33] Alphawolfen slain by Garrettwademan Redhawk Zivirt Red  MAY

[02:48:57] Horton slain by Doctorchaos Dagobert Bloodyhell Warrior Eruriku Andderson Malevolence Sgtscum Strah 

MAY

[02:49:40] Red slain by Dagobert Bloodyhell Legionaire Warrior Andderson Malevolence Sgtscum Strah 

MAY

[02:51:31] Hoppy slain by Doctorchaos Dagobert Bloodyhell Legionaire Eruriku 

MAY

[02:53:10] Roseborgne slain by Legionaire Warrior Andderson Malevolence Strah 

MAY

[02:53:37] Pingvinen slain by Doctorchaos Legionaire Warrior Eruriku Malevolence Strah 

MAY

[02:53:37] Sgtscum slain by Garrettwademan Togiodi Caradal Zivirt Mika Pingvinen 

MAY

[02:54:38] Warrior slain by Garrettwademan Togiodi Caradal Redhawk Zivirt Pingvinen 

MAY

[02:56:32] Andderson slain by Garrettwademan Roseborgne Togiodi Caradal Jukimo Redhawk Zivirt 

MAY

[03:00:43] Strah slain by Garrettwademan Togiodi Caradal Jukimo Redhawk Zivirt Mika 

MAY

[03:04:07] Doctorchaos slain by Garrettwademan Pinejon Togiodi Caradal Jukimo Redhawk Zivirt Hoppy Mika Red 

MAY

[03:06:15] Dagobert slain by Togiodi Caradal Jukimo Redhawk Zivirt Hoppy Mika Red 

MAY

[03:06:50] Bloodyhell slain by Garrettwademan Pinejon Togiodi Caradal Jukimo Redhawk Zivirt Mika Red 

MAY

[03:07:49] Malevolence slain by Garrettwademan Jukimo Redhawk Zivirt 

MAY

[03:07:59] Legionaire slain by Garrettwademan Pinejon Togiodi Caradal Jukimo Zivirt Hoppy Red 

MAY

[03:08:59] Eruriku slain by Legionaire Pinejon Togiodi Caradal Jukimo Redhawk Zivirt Hoppy Mika 

JUN

[12:58:42] Nightfall slain by Tulemees Christa 

JUN

[12:59:50] Torreto slain by Garrettwademan Togiodi Mika 

JUN

[13:01:08] Necroedarkslayer slain by Garrettwademan Togiodi Mika 

JUN

[13:01:45] Xristoff slain by Christa Mika Red 

JUN

[13:01:49] Deathangel slain by Garrettwademan Tulemees Togiodi Mika 

JUN  [20:29:29] Galaxycruiser slain by Fuegan Kraegar Smackeddown Chubchub Chrizz JUN  [21:21:50] Larry slain by Mortez Kingen Blackmonk Bangzuvelis JUN [19:26:34] Xristoff slain by Fevfev Adamz Eruriku  JUN [23:41:02] Fevfev slain by Robus Wulfgar Tarantula JUN [23:41:59] Chrizz slain by Robus Wulfgar Tarantula JUN

[11:04:18] Malevolence slain by Blazer Armyskin 

JUN

[11:04:44] Armyskin slain by Malevolence 

JUN [14:07:46] Kingen slain by Wulfgar JUN

[19:11:23] Zoreth slain by Tulemees Redhawk Hoppy Red Blinksyrevived 

JUN

[19:35:13] Rolandt slain by Tulemees Togiodi Redhawk Wulfgar Hoppy Mika Red Blinksyrevived 

JUN

[19:55:37] Kochinac slain by Adamz Sharkin 

JUN

[20:30:43] Zkovacs slain by Tulemees Roseborgne Togiodi Redhawk Nadroj Red Kincain 

JUN [16:22:00] Chubchub slain by Leaf Waledw Larry JUN [16:23:42] Necroedarkslayer slain by Suchswag Leaf Waledw Larry JUN [15:35:34] Fevfev slain by Horton Tulemees JUN [16:27:02] Blinksyrevived slain by Dagobert Fevfev Adamz Metaldragon JUN [16:29:08] Christa slain by Dagobert Fevfev Adamz Metaldragon JUN [16:30:15] Tulemees slain by Dagobert Fevfev Adamz Metaldragon JUN [12:09:31] Waledw slain by Polan Fevfev Necroedarkslayer Katatonia JUN [12:09:42] Necroedarkslayer slain by Polan Garrettwademan Nadroj Passepartout  JUN [12:12:25] Katatonia slain by Garrettwademan Nadroj Passepartout Kincain  JUN [12:13:56] Fevfev slain by Garrettwademan Nadroj Passepartout Kincain  JUN [00:21:08] Fevfev slain by Garrettwademan Tulemees Togiodi Caradal Redhawk Wulfgar Nadroj Red Blinksyrevived Kincain JUN [00:39:11] Kix slain by Garrettwademan Tulemees Togiodi Caradal Wulfgar Nadroj Red Blinksyrevived Pingvinen JUN

[19:38:05] Xristoff slain by Togiodi Caradal Redhawk Hoppy Nadroj 

JUN

[20:30:11] Armyskin slain by Aramisii Bloodyhell Adamz Chrizz Ciray Kunibert 

JUN [20:03:49] Davy slain by Jukimo Wulfgar Red  JUN [05:26:43] Togiodi slain by Warrior Alphawolfen Kunibert JUN [23:04:19] Andderson slain by Robus Togiodi Caradal JUN [19:29:43] Pingvinen slain by Polan Legionaire Kix Necroedarkslayer Fevfev Warrior Thornbush Sharkin  JUN [14:30:07] Galaxycruiser slain by Duderino Meridius JUN [14:32:09] Hoppy slain by Hashirama Duderino Meridius JUN [04:35:09] Tulemees slain by Aramisii Legionaire Necroedarkslayer Deathangel Kunibert JUN [13:30:07] Togiodi slain by Polan Dagobert Legionaire Bloodyhell Baldeagleog Fevfev Cornchips Ciray Kunibert JUN [01:14:16] Rasu slain by Togiodi Keenan Mcdaniel Kernelleonessar Jukimo Redhawk Bennyhill Hoppy JUN [01:15:10] Bangzuvelis slain by Keenan Togiodi Mcdaniel Jukimo Redhawk Hoppy Nadroj JUN [01:15:50] Blackmonk slain by Keenan Togiodi Kernelleonessar Mcdaniel Jukimo Redhawk Hoppy Nadroj JUN [01:16:13] Issle slain by Keenan Togiodi Mcdaniel Jukimo Redhawk Nadroj Hoppy JUN [01:17:11] Kingen slain by Togiodi Keenan Mcdaniel Kernelleonessar Jukimo Redhawk Hoppy Nadroj JUN [23:34:42] Necroedarkslayer slain by Garrettwademan Christa Mika Red Kincain  JUN [23:35:42] Stormcrow slain by Garrettwademan Christa Mika Red Kincain  JUN [16:39:05] Zaz slain by Pedro Togiodi Mcdaniel Christa Kernelleonessar Caradal Redhawk  JUL [16:17:11] Chiry slain by Garrettwademan Togiodi Christa Hoppy Mika JUL [16:17:48] Togiodi slain by Kix Aramisii Chiry Davy Mika Ciray JUL [16:18:31] Hoppy slain by Kix Aramisii Christa Chiry Ciray JUL [16:19:51] Christa slain by Kix Aramisii Bloodyhell Davy Ciray JUL [16:23:00] Garrettwademan slain by Doctorchaos Kix Bloodyhell Aramisii Davy Ciray JUL [22:50:35] Sirlaw slain by Hashirama Bumbum Blackdeathdragon Hoppy  JUL [18:34:55] Genocide slain by Garrettwademan Robus Togiodi Mika Red Kincain  JUL [00:13:04] Threap slain by Hashirama Bumbum Blackdeathdragon Evilmind  JUL

[15:18:02] Cornchips slain by Garrettwademan Cienio Jukimo Robus Tulemees Togiodi Red Blinksyrevived

JUL [15:19:08] Kix slain by Garrettwademan Clasin Cienio Jukimo Redhawk Robus Tulemees Togiodi Embolism Blinksyrevived Red JUL [15:19:23] Twinsen slain by Clasin Robus Tulemees Christa Cienio Embolism Redhawk Red JUL [15:20:39] Malevolence slain by Garrettwademan Aramisii Cienio Jukimo Redhawk Tulemees Togiodi Christa Chiry Embolism Blinksyrevived Pingvinen JUL [15:21:35] Aramisii slain by Garrettwademan Clasin Jukimo Robus Tulemees Togiodi Christa Embolism Red Pingvinen JUL [15:22:06] Chiry slain by Garrettwademan Clasin Cienio Redhawk Robus Tulemees Christa Embolism Red Blinksyrevived Pingvinen JUL

[15:23:56] Aetherwalker slain by Garrettwademan Clasin Cienio Jukimo Redhawk Robus Tulemees Togiodi Embolism Red Blinksyrevived Pingvinen

 

So that's an increase of 29% more PVP.

 

 

2) Player Activity

The next thing I looked at was player count via http://wild001.game.wurmonline.com/mrtg/wurm.html.  The average player count of Feb/Mar/Apr was 39.  The average player count of May/Jun/Jul was 52.  An increase of 25%.

 

So, with that, we had 25% more people playing, and 29% more PVP.  Which lines up surprisingly closely.  I wanted to see if the artifact nerf had anything to do with having that population increase of 25%, so I compared it to last year, and this summer is actually lower playercounts than last summer - last July has an average of 61 (compared to this july 57).  Also, looking at data, summer months are historically more active than winter months.

 

3) Wardeeds

 

3 days before the artifact nerf, MR planted a wardeed outside the JK capital and performed several raids over the next few weeks.  Following that, in late June and July, JK has placed a number of wardeeds along a big stretch of MR influence.  Both of those activities accounted for a lot of PVP centralized around these few areas.

 

Both of those factors play into it, as a big chunk of deaths in the past 3 months were a direct result of the land-grabbing and deed raiding, whereas before that, there were no active wardeeds.

 

this is a very small sample size and seems to be more anecdotal evidence than anything else 

 

on top of this, most people dislike war deeds because they lead to boring NMS style hopping, except now we have even more defenses and teleporting to make sure raids last longer; most deaths are due to bugs, someone getting caught a tenth of a tile from a mine door, some broken / unbalanced mechanics, or a combination of them; occasionally some bad calls get people killed, but you never see defenders full wipe at their own war deed because there's no real fight, just hopping, hence my point: war deed PvP is low quality PvP

4) Group size in pvp

 

I've also seen comments that with nerfed artifacts, it's increased active small-group pvp and roaming/exploration of the map.  The numbers are actually shockingly close to one another.  pre-nerf, an average of 5.64 people were on each death tab. post-nerf, an average of 5.69 people were on each death tab.  However, there were 2 very large fights (WoP pre-nerf and Doing Stuff post-nerf) that skewed these numbers.  Once taking those numbers out, there is an average of 4.6 players per death pre-nerf, and 5.59 players per death post-nerf.  So, excluding those 2 fights as outliers, there was more small-group PVP prior to the artifact nerfs.  I attribute this, however, to the fact that there were no active warfronts, so most pvp happened by just roaming around.  I don't believe this has anything to do with the artifact changes.

 

two problems with the above: 1. "small group PvP is not defined" and 2. x people on death tab doesn't mean x people in the fight for a given faction

 

this is a very flawed analysis, as group size should be measured with local tabs, not death tabs

 

TLDR: Based on the data, the artifact nerf had no influence on the amount of PVP on Chaos, in fact when taking into account the active warfront deeds and active players in the summer, there is actually less PVP post-nerf.  25% more active playerbase due to summer months, aligned to 29% more active PVP.  Change had no impact to # of people playing wurm, in fact, player numbers lower than last summer.  Average group size in fights equal pre- and post-change.

 

 

overall, it seems you have mistaken correlation for causation

 

it isn't just about quantity of PvP, but quality of PvP - check the balance of kills and deaths prior to and following the artifact nerf;

 

prior, most kills and least deaths by MR against JK and other kingdoms

 

after, much more even due to most kingdoms having access to even the most broken and unbalanced features of the game - JK and MR have more even amounts of kills and deaths with some kills by the smaller PMKs and a metric crap ton of subsequent forum peeveepee whenever Hashi kills someone, in addition JK has carried out more aggressive acts against MR instead of being forced to play defensively

 

it's curious how MR proceeded to blame their wipe at Tyre on their loss of a champion due to backfire and are now pushing for the orb to be buffed - this demonstrates that MR was relying on the artifacts and champions, two features generally considered to be overpowered, to win the fight; in losing said overpowered features, MR lost the fight as they could not cope

 

That they need buffing for the following reasons:

 

Weapons artifacts on a DPM level do less damage than normal weapons. Their use before hand was that they could do lots of damage on occasions, which was taken away from them in the last nerfs. Thus a number of changes can be made. Hit chance increased. Swing times decreased. Damage stay the same. Give pillar abilities to each for extra use.

 

no more spells, especially not buffed spells; giving weapons with significantly higher DPS to a single holder creates a slippery slope that should be avoided

 

Orb of doom is 50% death on click. This is not a balanced feature. Revert it back to 95% chance success and the 5% damages the allied team, not instantly kill the user. Orb of doom should do a % damage to a player, ranging from 25-50% meaning it can never be used to kill someone. 

 

how is 50% chance to suicide not balanced against 50% chance to smite all enemies in close proximity? 

 

it is balanced, it just doesn't suit your personal taste; 50% chance for huge positive is balanced by 50% chance for huge negative, please try to understand that you can't have big buffs with little / no downsides, as that is the exact textbook definition of unbalanced and is a perfect description of Wurm Online PvP balance as a whole

 

Eye needs to be made into something actually useful rather than something uesless by making it 100% locate upon use.

 

Finger to be usable on allied people ( activate right click use on someone).

 

Recharging length is fine, perhaps increase to 4 weeks.

 

Add in a feature where when examining the artifacts you can see the exact power. Perhaps new kingdom title which allows each kingdom to see each artifacts power so predictions on recharging can be made.

 

chat command, not kingdom title; we don't need more automated kingdom titles, let everyone see it

 

Using an artifact drains no charges.

 

lol wut? -1, the point is that they use charges so the more they are used, the higher chance they have of changing hands

 

All the above changes, will make people want the artifacts (because they're actually useful), and thus will create more PvP.

 

unless they are overpowered and create the same slippery slope as before where people couldn't take them from the kingdom who had them all

 

Also, you're* Lulu.

 

 

sorta related to finger of fo: buff stacked players getting full heals is unbalanced, however the real issue lies in the buff stacking, not the finger (see other balance thread)

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Fair enough. 


 


Now, care to offer a counter proposal other than the flat 'no' that you keep throwing around?


 


There's a number of people very quick to just -1 my suggestions and say why, but noone offers a counter proposal.  Is your issue with the AoE's or just the fact that they're instant.


 


Would having the AoE's have the same cast time as their priest casted equivalents be a suitable copromise, or do you have other abilities in mind for them


 


Also, the only real negative comments from my suggestions seem to be the weapons (hammer, scepter, sword, orb). 


So for now, shall we see if we can collectively come up with a suggestion that the PvP community at large can mostly agree upon for these four artifacts, and then move on to the more utility ones?


Edited by aamanus

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