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Docterchese

General Balance Discussion

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I've got one.

Stop rewarding exploiters and allowing them to keep playing.

It ruins the game for everyone else.

I'm fairly certain the devs prefer having the catastrophical bugs fixed instead.

Lets say I would have doublicated money/items(this includes stuff like BOK)/sleepowder, lets say I would have used no-drop equipment in combat, lets say I would have used the "steal resources from anywhere on the server" exploit, lets say i would have teleported the money/items back from the inventories of people i trade with, lets say I would have made underwater mines to pass unnoticed in the oceans,  lets say I would have ran around applying "NA" dmg (undestroyable) to all fortifications, etc, etc....

Then your wurm experience would probably be quite poor.

 

I think its better having those things fixed instead.

just sayin.

 

ps. There is a reward system for the more severe bugs/exploits. (for those who dont know)

Edited by Zekezor

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Oh and look who responds.

Haha.

Saw that coming from a mile away.

Didn't even read the post, I just chuckled.

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Oh and look who responds.

Haha.

Saw that coming from a mile away.

Didn't even read the post, I just chuckled.

:D

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First, some tips:


 


> subtractive design - remove what doesn't need to be in game or what makes the game worse by remaining


> the clear hierarchies of best > next best > next best > next best > .... > second worst > worst need to go (mostly meditation and armor)


> test stuff before adding it to PvP


> meditation and priests BOTH need to have much less effect on PvP; neither should be a requirement, they should be interesting changes, not flat buffs or things that are necessary


> damage, damage reduction, and CR are not the only balancing factors that can be used; weight, swing speed, hit rate, parry rate, block angle, movement speed, glance rate, damage / DR by damage type, and many other factors are available that individually have less impact and can be used to fine tune the game's balance


> PvP (im)balance as a whole favors fleeing as opposed to fighting (SotG, hell horses, DR buffs, high level armor, etc.) - fix this 


KEEP THIS SEPARATE FROM PVE!


 


Meditation


> Shield of the gone is overpowered; anyone who says otherwise is either saying so for personal gain or knows nothing about game balance and shouldn't be listened to


> Meditation needs to have less effect overall


> Overhaul all paths and remove / severely reduce anything related to CR, damage, and damage reduction


> For some reason, Magranon is more like a meditation path with downsides than an actual priest (spells possessed by other gods or just useless; mainly relies on its passive buffs which in and of themselves are ridiculous, but can't be removed without first buffing Mag)


> If worst comes to worst, remove it; no actual "work" was put into it, it's more a measure of how long your account has had premium than anything else since there are people who literally only log in five times a day to get shield of the gone meditation skill, then log back out


> Meditation gain should be 100% chance on a completed action


 


Priests


> Magranon needs unique spells, and its passives should be brought in line with everything else (ie. small skill gain, healing, etc. buffs, not damage / DR buffs, res stones, or other stuff that is locked behind paywalls for others)


> Player gods need their own proper spell lists of well thought out and tested unique new spells, not random lists of unbalanced pre-existing spells as we currently have (stop half-assing it)


> Player gods should also have their own statuettes


> Champions no longer serve any balanced and meaningful purpose - they used to be balanced by permadeath, and even by the absurd amount of work to stay champed under the old points system, but now they take no effort to maintain and there is no balanced downside to prevent all kingdoms from having all three push-button-to-shield-of-the-gone slots occupied at all times; in short, remove champs, they're no longer needed and they detract from the game


> Look into spell spam again; consider removing or completely reworking direct target spells (NahjOP)


> Light of Fo needs to heal over time as opposed to instantly (NahjOP)


> Tentacles needs to be visible when cast (NahjOP)


> Nahjo is OP


> Scorn of Libila needs to be fixed to not penetrate houses


> Zombie trolls should not be able to be armed


> Make priest stats (channeling and soul stats) matter more in PvP so that channeling is actually needed and higher skill consistently gives better casts with more magnitude of power; currently the difference between 40 and 70 channeling only matters for enchanting and a few very high level spells like smite and land of the dead


 


Armor


> Remove the dumb armor nerfs for archery and spell casting


> Put armors into tiers (not hierarchy as they currently are) and make most / all relevant in PvP


> Each armor should put the wearer into a specific role, making anything else very difficult but not impossible (the current nerfs don't work for this)


> I am working on a concept design for this; I'll put this on my list of priorities and post it when it's good enough to be criticized


> Moon metal needs to be balanced against everything else instead of being a flat buff


 


Pay to Win and Money Sink Items


> Deeds should not block tower capping nearby


> Remove teleporting; a minimum size deed with no guards becomes a portal for people to travel across the map to defend, thus removing strategy, making it too easy to hold large areas of land, and making raiding even more difficult than it is


> Remove res stones (doubles as an indirect balancing factor to expensive / overpowered gear like drake / scale)


> Disallow the use of shaker orbs with enemies in local - it disrupts raiding (in some cases making it nearly impossible) or can be used as a trap


 


Archery


> Revert the archery nerf from September 11, 2014 - archery range and difficulty were directly nerfed (in addition to the armor nerf), and currently it is impractical to use anything but the normal shoot option; as an example, aiming for the head of a mob within 5 tiles with a shortbow while naked almost always misses, this needs to be fixed and made viable in PvE and PvP


> Archery is the normal counter to mounts, but it keeps getting nerfed; make it easier again (where it was prior to Sept. 11, 2014 was fine)


> The archery block rate is fine; despite being nearly 100%, the angle at which this is possible is very small, thus encouraging tactical play by archers to bypass it; archery is rarely used against players anyway, aside from boat fights


> The armor nerf was supposed to counter spell spam, but it penalizes archery too, which was supposed to counter spell spam; spells and archery were proportionally nerfed so they are both less powerful than before but still equal in comparison to each other


 


Mounts and Pets


> Un-nerf pets in terms of CR and length of control


> The above should help to balance hell horses by making battle pets viable, thus requiring normal horses and making both viable options


> Buff polearms when used by players on foot only (not by mounted players); this should help with mounts and backdooring


> Perhaps make unicorns a viable mount and change some features to give a third mount option for better balance (ie. carry weight penalty, threshold of said penalty, health pool; make them unique)


 


Valrei


> Current buffs / debuffs end up leaving players with pure buffs; this is inherently unbalanced, as there is no downside or counter


> Make missions more engaging and fun instead of TES style "go here and do this" with more grinding involved


> Scale karma / point gain in accordance with difficulty and tedium of mission (ie. pylons give a LOT more than cutting trees)


> Give karma to all players involved in a mission; split up proportionally based on work done, and consider giving some to those in close proximity to solo missions to encourage group roaming (the other players offer protection to a player who completes a solo mission)


 


Other


> Fix Light of Fo so it works on same-kingdom regardless of alliance or server


> Fix casting; high skill priests should be able to reliably cast 70+, at least on Epic (enchanting)


> In tandem with above, curve casting difficulty differently so high 90s and 100+ are still extremely rare


> For future implementations of "rare" or "difficult to obtain" items, please realize that a slow entry into the game world still results in accumulation over time without any form of outlet (see: drake, scale, rare / supreme items [not yet with fantastic, but eventually...], moon metal, sorcery buffs and spells, meditation buffs, etc.)


> Horse shoes and arrows need to be significantly easier to improve

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Spawn rates! That's what I was trying to remember. Animal spawn rates are all over the place. There has to be a better way to handle them.

 

It's been observed that if someone kills many animals in a certain area of a server, that eventually those animals respawn elsewhere. It sounds like there's a shared pool of creatures that can spawn, and due to inactivity elsewhere, the spawns end up shifting to a less-hunted area or into mines.

 

Somehow I think this is exactly how it should be. No solution needed. I remember coming into an area where obviously no one had been hunting for quite a while. It was absolutely packed with crocs, bears and trolls etc. Hundreds of them. I think I spent a week doing pretty much nothing but kill mobs, wearing down my sword and armor until practically useless. So what do you do if mobs have gone from an area and you want to hunt? Well, obviously you go try and find where they might have gone. No "solution" needed.

 

Wurm is a game and games are expected (by most of us) to have challenges for us to overcome and this just might be one of them.

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Valrei

> Current buffs / debuffs end up leaving players with pure buffs; this is inherently unbalanced, as there is no downside or counter

 

Rather than tackle the whole post especially since some of it was already spoken about before, sorcery buffs/debuffs are fine

 

We don't have horrible 50% buffs and 3x weaknesses anymore, and a stacked buff/debuff comes out to be around 6.5% buff, 6.5% is hardly anywhere in the realm of broken or overpowered.  Just to emphasize this, 6.5% less damage on what could be a 10 dmg wound is now 9.35 dmg, except these buffs are mostly for things that do very little damage.  Burns, coldburns, acid, poison, disease, bites, etc.

 

The only things needing balancing in both directions are spells, which imo is best to have its own thread

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I would prefer that the dirt go into my inventory like digging, So it's based on my stats how much i can hold before i have to move it to the boat. But I would take anything other than having to move every single dirt or my action queue stops.

 

I'd prefer it to go into the boat. That's where I would empty it if I was actually doing it.

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Requesting again short fences to balance the look of fencing in small animals such as chickens, pheasants, piggies, etc.


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11. I'd like an option whether my mining actions should create a pile on the floor, or collected in my inventory. The same, in reverse, for digging/leveling/dredging.


 


12. Saddlebags for horses! Please!


 


13. A way for painting ships without having to become Hercules...


 


14. Add the option to 'plaster' (all) wall types 'plastered [X] wall', which then can be overpainted; with different color on each side.


 


15. Pottery Walls! (With pottery bricks instead of stone)


 


16. Improve (through an appropriate GUI option) the pan-filling activity, which is tedious and time-consuming, without offering any skill...


 


17. Why need a second character to hold the dioptra for the bridges, when it could be 'planted'?


 


18. Make Sol rise in the East and set in the West, not in the North like it is now in both cases...


 


19. Potatoes + 'Fileting' + pan -> CHIPS! + fish/meat filet --> Fish & Chips --> Kebab & Chips!


 


20. More skins and colors for horses!


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15. Pottery Walls! (With pottery bricks instead of stone)

 

 

It has the feel of masochism but I love this idea!

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Oreo

I've just given up on exploiters and I'm just going to cheat all I can. It seems to be the new meta, at least on the PvP servers. It's not like they'll ban me or anything. Hell, I'll probably just get a title and some coin to go along with my ill-gotten booty.

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Add Harley Davidson's so I can go over 46km.


 


Also add saddle bags so my Harley Davidson can carry Jukimo because we all know he has no legs!


 


 




First, some tips:


 


> subtractive design - remove what doesn't need to be in game or what makes the game worse by remaining


> the clear hierarchies of best > next best > next best > next best > .... > second worst > worst need to go (mostly meditation and armor)


> test stuff before adding it to PvP


> meditation and priests BOTH need to have much less effect on PvP; neither should be a requirement, they should be interesting changes, not flat buffs or things that are necessary


> damage, damage reduction, and CR are not the only balancing factors that can be used; weight, swing speed, hit rate, parry rate, block angle, movement speed, glance rate, damage / DR by damage type, and many other factors are available that individually have less impact and can be used to fine tune the game's balance


> PvP (im)balance as a whole favors fleeing as opposed to fighting (SotG, hell horses, DR buffs, high level armor, etc.) - fix this 


KEEP THIS SEPARATE FROM PVE!


 


Meditation


> Shield of the gone is overpowered; anyone who says otherwise is either saying so for personal gain or knows nothing about game balance and shouldn't be listened to


> Meditation needs to have less effect overall


> Overhaul all paths and remove / severely reduce anything related to CR, damage, and damage reduction


> For some reason, Magranon is more like a meditation path with downsides than an actual priest (spells possessed by other gods or just useless; mainly relies on its passive buffs which in and of themselves are ridiculous, but can't be removed without first buffing Mag)


> If worst comes to worst, remove it; no actual "work" was put into it, it's more a measure of how long your account has had premium than anything else since there are people who literally only log in five times a day to get shield of the gone meditation skill, then log back out


> Meditation gain should be 100% chance on a completed action


 


Priests


> Magranon needs unique spells, and its passives should be brought in line with everything else (ie. small skill gain, healing, etc. buffs, not damage / DR buffs, res stones, or other stuff that is locked behind paywalls for others)


> Player gods need their own proper spell lists of well thought out and tested unique new spells, not random lists of unbalanced pre-existing spells as we currently have (stop half-assing it)


> Player gods should also have their own statuettes


> Champions no longer serve any balanced and meaningful purpose - they used to be balanced by permadeath, and even by the absurd amount of work to stay champed under the old points system, but now they take no effort to maintain and there is no balanced downside to prevent all kingdoms from having all three push-button-to-shield-of-the-gone slots occupied at all times; in short, remove champs, they're no longer needed and they detract from the game


> Look into spell spam again; consider removing or completely reworking direct target spells (NahjOP)


> Light of Fo needs to heal over time as opposed to instantly (NahjOP)


> Tentacles needs to be visible when cast (NahjOP)


> Nahjo is OP


> Scorn of Libila needs to be fixed to not penetrate houses


> Zombie trolls should not be able to be armed


> Make priest stats (channeling and soul stats) matter more in PvP so that channeling is actually needed and higher skill consistently gives better casts with more magnitude of power; currently the difference between 40 and 70 channeling only matters for enchanting and a few very high level spells like smite and land of the dead


 


Armor


> Remove the dumb armor nerfs for archery and spell casting


> Put armors into tiers (not hierarchy as they currently are) and make most / all relevant in PvP


> Each armor should put the wearer into a specific role, making anything else very difficult but not impossible (the current nerfs don't work for this)


> I am working on a concept design for this; I'll put this on my list of priorities and post it when it's good enough to be criticized


> Moon metal needs to be balanced against everything else instead of being a flat buff


 


Pay to Win and Money Sink Items


> Deeds should not block tower capping nearby


> Remove teleporting; a minimum size deed with no guards becomes a portal for people to travel across the map to defend, thus removing strategy, making it too easy to hold large areas of land, and making raiding even more difficult than it is


> Remove res stones (doubles as an indirect balancing factor to expensive / overpowered gear like drake / scale)


> Disallow the use of shaker orbs with enemies in local - it disrupts raiding (in some cases making it nearly impossible) or can be used as a trap


 


Archery


> Revert the archery nerf from September 11, 2014 - archery range and difficulty were directly nerfed (in addition to the armor nerf), and currently it is impractical to use anything but the normal shoot option; as an example, aiming for the head of a mob within 5 tiles with a shortbow while naked almost always misses, this needs to be fixed and made viable in PvE and PvP


> Archery is the normal counter to mounts, but it keeps getting nerfed; make it easier again (where it was prior to Sept. 11, 2014 was fine)


> The archery block rate is fine; despite being nearly 100%, the angle at which this is possible is very small, thus encouraging tactical play by archers to bypass it; archery is rarely used against players anyway, aside from boat fights


> The armor nerf was supposed to counter spell spam, but it penalizes archery too, which was supposed to counter spell spam; spells and archery were proportionally nerfed so they are both less powerful than before but still equal in comparison to each other


 


Mounts and Pets


> Un-nerf pets in terms of CR and length of control


> The above should help to balance hell horses by making battle pets viable, thus requiring normal horses and making both viable options


> Buff polearms when used by players on foot only (not by mounted players); this should help with mounts and backdooring


> Perhaps make unicorns a viable mount and change some features to give a third mount option for better balance (ie. carry weight penalty, threshold of said penalty, health pool; make them unique)


 


Valrei


> Current buffs / debuffs end up leaving players with pure buffs; this is inherently unbalanced, as there is no downside or counter


> Make missions more engaging and fun instead of TES style "go here and do this" with more grinding involved


> Scale karma / point gain in accordance with difficulty and tedium of mission (ie. pylons give a LOT more than cutting trees)


> Give karma to all players involved in a mission; split up proportionally based on work done, and consider giving some to those in close proximity to solo missions to encourage group roaming (the other players offer protection to a player who completes a solo mission)


 


Other


> Fix Light of Fo so it works on same-kingdom regardless of alliance or server


> Fix casting; high skill priests should be able to reliably cast 70+, at least on Epic (enchanting)


> In tandem with above, curve casting difficulty differently so high 90s and 100+ are still extremely rare


> For future implementations of "rare" or "difficult to obtain" items, please realize that a slow entry into the game world still results in accumulation over time without any form of outlet (see: drake, scale, rare / supreme items [not yet with fantastic, but eventually...], moon metal, sorcery buffs and spells, meditation buffs, etc.)


> Horse shoes and arrows need to be significantly easier to improve




 


This man would be my RL lover if he would take my hand in a lovely ceremony called marriage


Edited by Holar
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Let's just leave out a few that may have been abused. : )

Also. Didn't quote it all because was too long.

Edited by Oreo

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Let's just leave out a few that may have been abused. : )

Also. Didn't quote it all because was too long.

Me? exploiting? Surely you must be joking good sir!

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Some more things I thought of.


 


  1. Ability to load / unload altars.
  2. Drastically reduce the decay of items on deed.
  3. Rethink or remove the reduction of priest skill gain, they are already penalized by not being able to improve and do certain skills, why double penalize them on the things they can do.
  4. Ability to color with dye and change the lighting on marble brazier pillars ( and other light sources )
  5. New uses for Tin.
  6. New 'cosmetic' clothing - hate that we all look exactly alike with no difference in appearance
  7. New types of food items, the meals are all stale we need more variety and new crops to keep the farmers busy.
  8. Increase speed of boats based on the quality for example +2 kph per 10ql heck even an extra 1 kph would be nice.
  9. So way to transport animals on the same server. 
Edited by Stormblade
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Armor

> Remove the dumb armor nerfs for archery and spell casting

> Put armors into tiers (not hierarchy as they currently are) and make most / all relevant in PvP

 

Some good points made in general but lol the irony in saying this

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No scenario points from friendly missions on friendly homeservers (epic balance suggestion)

 

Ever since the start of epic there has been an abuse of friendly missions on homeservers by players, missions was created to increase pvp, to put players in dangerous positions in order to create pvp and in effect reward the player with scenario points and karma. However there is almost always no danger on the homeservers, it creates no pvp when fo asks you to sacrifice 5 decent quality spindles on serenity and thus the purpose of missions is gone on homeservers, if there is no danger, there should be no or little rewards.

 

I propose that first, friendly missions on homeservers (fo on serenity, libila on affliction, mag on desertion) should not give any scenario points, simply because it gives an advantage to both default kingdoms due to having a fully friendly server to operate on (only friendly deeds, only friendly towers, doesn't create any pvp) and kingdoms with a larger playerbase gains a direct advantage over smaller kingdoms. PMK's is also at a disadvantage currently due to not having a friendly base of operations to do missions on, elevation friendly missions usually have a better incentive for pvp, draining enemy deeds or performing rituals on enemy towers or valrei buildings for example.

 

And that performing missions on enemy homeservers should give up to twice or thrice the scenario points, simply because the people who performs them puts themselves deep in enemy territory, which ultimately means more chance for the creation of pvp.

 

Friendly missions such as sac 5 30ql spindles on homeservers gives the exact same reward as draining an enemy capital, or going deep into an enemy server to perform a ritual and so forth, even though the friendly homeserver missions takes less effort and creates no pvp, which is the exact opposite purpose of what missions was created for.

 

Remove scenario points from friendly default god missions on homeservers.

 

 

Also currently the biggest kingdom has the ability to do missions for 4 different gods, fo and the 3 player gods, they will be able to do their missions simply because they've got the largest amount of followers since they're the biggest kingdom.

 

 

Balance for all no matter what kingdom or kingdom type you are, pmks get the exact same possibilities as default kingdoms to do missions, as the friendly homeserver scenario point gains is gone people will start going out to do more missions due to wanting a chance to get valrei items, which ultimately creates more pvp, for example enemy homeserver missions will be attempted more by players which has a very high chance to create pvp due to how overextended the group/person doing the mission is. Players will also still be able to gain karma from the friendly default god missions which means that they still give a decent reward.

 

TLDR: remove scenario points gains from friendly homeserver missions (remove scenario points from fo missions on jkh, lib on blh, mag on mrh), read arguements and how it will provide overall balance to the game, create more pvp and overall improve the game in the text.

Edited by changer
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Moving stuff from a bsb to another container should be able to fill the container up (even if it has a timer) I can't stand moving 10 rocks or w/e at a time from larges crates to bsb or anything of the sort. D:


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Kinda late to nerf something after its been in the game for so long, many good priests already converted and lost faith for it. Libila has had the same veggie bonus for what, a year now? Why should nahjo be nerfed.

 

Whykillme,

 

Not changing something because "that's how it's always been" is a terrible reason to not update/correct it!

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allow home servers to be deeded by other factions and not just raided.


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When I harvest cotton and put it into the cotton gin I get seeds and cotton. When I harvest hemp and process it I end up with fiber and seeds. When I prepare a pumpkin I get pumpkin and seeds. But not in WURM. Noooo. Exactly why don't I get both seeds and cotton/wemp/pumpkin instead of one or the other. Makes no sense at all.


 


When I ride a wagon or ride a horse my body follows the movement of which ever one I'm riding. My head follows my body unless I make an effort to do otherwise. Yet in WURM my body doesn't act like it's riding anything. It's like my body is floating above the wagon/horse. Pleeeeease. Allow my body to act like it's on the wagon or horse so it always points in the direction the horse or wagon is traveling. If I want to turn my head I am quite capable of doing that myself. Oh, and boats too, same problem.


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The ability to move bulk items between crates and BsBs etc in one go, instead of click-drag-enter over and over again. 

On a basic drag a stack from one container to another, if more than you can hold is selected, start a progress bar and move what you can carry each tick?

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please...PAAALEEEEAAASSEEE make it so we can create static positions for windows. The task of opening BSBs or inventories or loot piles and having to resize the window is tedious!


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No scenario points from friendly missions on friendly homeservers (epic balance suggestion)

 

Ever since the start of epic there has been an abuse of friendly missions on homeservers by players, missions was created to increase pvp, to put players in dangerous positions in order to create pvp and in effect reward the player with scenario points and karma. However there is almost always no danger on the homeservers, it creates no pvp when fo asks you to sacrifice 5 decent quality spindles on serenity and thus the purpose of missions is gone on homeservers, if there is no danger, there should be no or little rewards.

 

I propose that first, friendly missions on homeservers (fo on serenity, libila on affliction, mag on desertion) should not give any scenario points, simply because it gives an advantage to both default kingdoms due to having a fully friendly server to operate on (only friendly deeds, only friendly towers, doesn't create any pvp) and kingdoms with a larger playerbase gains a direct advantage over smaller kingdoms. PMK's is also at a disadvantage currently due to not having a friendly base of operations to do missions on, elevation friendly missions usually have a better incentive for pvp, draining enemy deeds or performing rituals on enemy towers or valrei buildings for example.

 

And that performing missions on enemy homeservers should give up to twice or thrice the scenario points, simply because the people who performs them puts themselves deep in enemy territory, which ultimately means more chance for the creation of pvp.

 

Friendly missions such as sac 5 30ql spindles on homeservers gives the exact same reward as draining an enemy capital, or going deep into an enemy server to perform a ritual and so forth, even though the friendly homeserver missions takes less effort and creates no pvp, which is the exact opposite purpose of what missions was created for.

 

Remove scenario points from friendly default god missions on homeservers.

 

 

Also currently the biggest kingdom has the ability to do missions for 4 different gods, fo and the 3 player gods, they will be able to do their missions simply because they've got the largest amount of followers since they're the biggest kingdom.

 

 

Balance for all no matter what kingdom or kingdom type you are, pmks get the exact same possibilities as default kingdoms to do missions, as the friendly homeserver scenario point gains is gone people will start going out to do more missions due to wanting a chance to get valrei items, which ultimately creates more pvp, for example enemy homeserver missions will be attempted more by players which has a very high chance to create pvp due to how overextended the group/person doing the mission is. Players will also still be able to gain karma from the friendly default god missions which means that they still give a decent reward.

 

TLDR: remove scenario points gains from friendly homeserver missions (remove scenario points from fo missions on jkh, lib on blh, mag on mrh), read arguements and how it will provide overall balance to the game, create more pvp and overall improve the game in the text.

 

 

I'd rather see something more along the lines of less gain on home servers than none at all with more gain on Elevation, in enemy territory, and on enemy home servers, as well as for doing larger missions; possibly scale it up a bit as well for PMKs, but don't completely remove it from home servers

 

consider increasing difficulty and lowering the frequency of missions that can be done on deed; the Freedom attitude on home servers actually keeps some people locked inside as if they will instantly get red-tunneled back to the token, even though the entirety of PvP on home servers is a scrub or two getting killed at the JKH-Elevation border and some other scrubs boasting about stealing a couple boats and looting some disbanded and decaying deeds, then engaging in some friendly character building exercises and ending with a group hug

 

unfortunately, home servers are their own balance issue entirely...

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It does not take two years to get SOTG. It takes 3-5 months tops.

i dont know anyone that has done it in 3 to 5 months or so you just hear ppl saying we deserve sotg for working on it for a year and a half so somone is telling porkies

Edited by wasntme

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